bringing a partial perma/max lineup to war (kids dont try this at home)

[OnyxDS]

I agree that warring with only fully maxed th9s and TH10s is not a "normal" clan composition, and a clan like that should not expect perfect TH for TH matching. But they shouldn't expect 6 th11s with 4 max wardens either (and 20+ engineeerex accounts in a roster of 30).

Well I agree that the original match sounded bad, and as you know I'm not a fan of SC's efforts at MM (I'd have been banned from the forum if I said exactly what I thought). But OP's point was that his enemy was causing themselves trouble, and pretty much encouraging matches against engineers by using a load of perma-bases, and people seemed to be disagreeing with him.

[nerfedname]

I don't see it as a matter of deserving, I see it as a matter of expecting.

Players who know how the system works should expect that their clan of all max TH9s will draw an opponent with some 10s, some 9s and some 8s, and not complain when that happens. Similarly, players who know that engineering is a thing and is pretty common should expect to run into engineered clans on a regular basis. Knowing that they're out there, you should either expect to be periodically outmatched, with the period being determined by how much you are doing to outmatch the other side.

Blaming people for building their bases in ways that the matchmaker rewards is unproductive.

I do empathize. We lose to engineered clans regularly, and it's always when we're on the "infernos" side of the "infernos vs heroes" equation. Our solution is to keep working on our heroes so that most of the time we're on the "heroes" side.

But we're not talking about a clan of all max th9s matching "some 10s, some 9s, and some 8s." No one has a problem with that. What we ARE talking about, as described by the OP, is a clan of mostly all maxed 9/10 bases meeting 6 th11s and a joke of an engineered clan with 4 max wardens who runs them over and 100%s them with ease. There is a decided difference between those two scenarios.

And if players should "expect to run into engineered clans on a regular basis," with the only means of competing with them being incumbent upon "how much you are doing to outmatch the other side," I.e., engineering oneself, then supercell should expect their player base to dwindle and it's probably time I visit the App Store and start looking for a better game. I'm not re-rolling my eagle'd and inferno'd th11 account that I've sunk 2.5 years and $100s of dollars into just to build a cheese account so I can HOPE to maybe possibly get an even war. And I'm not asking my friends and family who play with me in my clan to re-roll their accounts either...

[OnyxDS]

We probably agree on more then we disagree. but, 68-70k TH9s are pretty common man.

Your numbers suggest defensively maxed, lack walls. 68k TH9 has max towers, and skull/legos. same with 87k TH9.

So I interpret that same data way differently..... ( this is also why CWL is trying this TH10 tiering system )

I agree 68k+ TH9s are common, but not ones with 30/30 heroes (which will make quite a difference on the offence scoring I guess). Below is the heroes from the first few 68k TH9s in the forum cup list; in no particular order, and there are loads more of them. Which is why I said earlier if someone wants to war forever at TH9 - which I can understand - then doing so with 20/20 heroes would work much better.

18	26
19	18
17	19
16	15
18	17
20	20
18	19
16	16
20	18
16	17
19	18
21	28
22	26
20	20
19	19
16	22
20	25

[Prutser]

And if players should "expect to run into engineered clans on a regular basis," with the only means of competing with them being incumbent upon "how much you are doing to outmatch the other side," I.e., engineering oneself, then supercell should expect their player base to dwindle and it's probably time I visit the App Store and start looking for a better game. I'm not re-rolling my eagle'd and inferno'd th11 account that I've sunk 2.5 years and $100s of dollars into just to build a cheese account so I can HOPE to maybe possibly get an even war.

I believe this is already happening. Lots of people left due to wrong decisions in war matching made by SC in march 2016, meaning less clans, meaning more mismatches. At the moment the matchmaking is all over the place. Before the march update, a clan with such a line up (TH9/TH10s) would NEVER have such a mismatch. It is too late, if you are not willing to spent time or plunk $$$ on engineered accounts, you might as well quit the war part of this game.

[Warios]

Mossack brought my last war into this thread earlier, here is a recap of the match. We did loose by 2 stars, 98.68% to 100%.

Did the number of dips they had have an effect on the outcome? You bet 100% it did, they scored 2 even th 3 stars, 20/20+ th9 hits on our 2 bottom th9's basicly th8's with an AQ, and few new defences. even the 45/45/20 hit on my th10 only had 13 seconds to spare on the clock by the time it was done. This clan we faced has put some serious time into creating a war lineup like they have, I dont blame them for doing it, but i feel the responsibility of this type of one sided match is solely put on SC shoulders.



Now you look this over and let me know if it is ballanced.

[CasimirEffect]

This clan we faced has put some serious time into creating a war lineup like they have, I dont blame them for doing it, but i feel the responsibility of this type of one sided match is solely put on SC shoulders.

It's unfortunate when wars are essentially decided to start prep day...

The breakdown you provided is a prime example of how poorly TH11 is handled by MM and it happens all the time with the same effect matchups like this always have: someone on the team eventually decides they are pulling the trigger on the "skip to warden" upgrade path to help the clan and we have one more strange account for MM to handle. Tough beat.

This pattern has occurred in various forms throughout the game and the primary issue is that SC has too loosely defined competitive play with a loose MM algorithm design to accommodate their unwillingness to border the canvas.

[Alishr99]

unfortunately.... there's nothing such as balance in this game... in clan war...

less casual... less update... less any....

[Skrags]

Totally disagree with the "not balanced". a maxed account is the most balanced an account can be, other then when you land on a new TH. Otherwise the game is completely broken. By extension, a war roster of the most balanced account is also balanced. .

You have stated this rhetoric before, and once again I disagree.

I concede that the word 'balance' is ambiguous, and open to interpretation, based on opinion.

By your theory (which has validity btw as a theory) :-
1) A fully maxed base is as balanced as a base can be - ok, I get this!
2) A roster full of such bases, would therefore by definition, be balanced too - ok, I get this also.

BUT

The context of balance, as you describe, is not as I see it at all.
I've outlined my opinion below :-

A Balanced Roster - what is it and why do it?

Every clan is different of course, but more often than not certain clans attract similar TH level spreads.
For example, a high end elite TH11 war clan usually doesn't accept TH9's for instance, or a TH8-TH10 clan usually doesn't take in TH6's.
To this end, a balanced war roster is one which has a high chance of finding a similar roster, given the possible available pool of other clans, at the time war search begins.

Imo, "the tighter the better" doesn't reflect this.
A clan with 20 TH9's is as tight as you can get, but this isn't a balanced roster, because how many other clans out there are running 20 TH9's?

Something like, 5 x TH10's, 8 x TH9's and 7 x TH8's (for a 20 v 20 war) could be labelled as a balanced roster, because there are 'probably' a lot of clans out there in Clashland running this kind of war roster.
And this is the crux, it's all about the availability of similar clans!

Having a roster with the highest possibility of matching a similar clan, would be my definition of a 'balanced roster'.
By definition therefore, it's more likely (not definitely) that a clan will avoid matching an engineered clan.

Obviously I don't have the data on 'average clan rosters', so this is subjective, but I wanted to share this opinion for the reasons I set out.

-----
I've highlighted in red the most relevant part.

In respect of the thread we are discussing, (which is linked below for those that haven't read it), I completely agree with those that believe that this kind of thread should never exist in the first place. Why should any clan have to try and manipulate their war roster, even by balancing it, just to try to avoid poor matches in the first place?

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...gineered-Clans

If this thread has helped some clans, then it has been worth doing, but it was never meant to be the magical answer to everything!

[Krastor]

Alot of interesting thoughts put forth in this thread about how and why wars are so screwed up right now, but with so much clan wide manipulation of bases goin on anymore it's extremely tough for the matchmaker to come up with a fair match.
Just speculation on my part but I think the war player pool has shrunk significantly over the last year. That in itself makes fair matches even harder to come by.
I realized a couple weeks ago what a sad state wars are in when my clan got a match. Instead of looking at their top bases and hero lvl's, I immediately scrolled down to see how many 10's and 11's were hanging out at the bottom of the match. I used to get frustrated dealing with that stuff, but now I accept it and don't really care either way. Kinda sad tho

[Tomville]

Alot of interesting thoughts put forth in this thread about how and why wars are so screwed up right now, but with so much clan wide manipulation of bases goin on anymore it's extremely tough for the matchmaker to come up with a fair match.
Just speculation on my part but I think the war player pool has shrunk significantly over the last year. That in itself makes fair matches even harder to come by.
I realized a couple weeks ago what a sad state wars are in when my clan got a match. Instead of looking at their top bases and hero lvl's, I immediately scrolled down to see how many 10's and 11's were hanging out at the bottom of the match. I used to get frustrated dealing with that stuff, but now I accept it and don't really care either way. Kinda sad tho

I understand that sad reaction, it's what I do too, the immediate scroll down to see how bad it is. Pleasant surprise this 15v15 war, our 13 th11, big 10, mid 10, and baby 10 matched to 15 th11... that rarely seen species, the disorganised th11. Yes they all have eagles and wardens, but small heros, dire walls (purple, skull, lego), so-so but not awful troops, and a truly awful open war log (they last won 2 in a row 194 days ago). Never mind I need to take on an eagle with my new low level th10 troops: this lot are not engineers, hurrah! (but sad indeed to have come to think think that, as opposed to "crud, I need to attack one with a level 2 eagle and quite a lot of other big stuff").