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Thread: bringing a partial perma/max lineup to war (kids dont try this at home)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MossackFonseca View Post
    Not sure what your problem is lately, but you've cherry picked items from that thread to support your case rather than taking an entire section.
    My problem is that over the last few months (or longer) the forum has slowly and steadily seen fit to shift the onus for bad matchups NOT onto the players who carefully manicure accounts specifically to create poor matchups, but rather onto the players buildings balanced and normal accounts that just want a fair match.

    The mindset here has slowly become not "matchmaking sucks, maybe it's the plethora and pervasiveness of TH11s with 45/45/20 heroes and TH7, or less, defenses," into "TH9s shouldn't employ both xbows AND appropriately leveled heroes and walls" (too close to max, you deserve to pull engineers) or "TH10s shouldn't employ both infernos AND appropriately leveled heroes and walls" (again, you're too close to max at that respective TH level, you deserve to pull engineers). A clan like the one the OP matched, and subsequently derided, likely wouldn't have a problem with a matchup pitting them against a TH11 or two especially if they're not fully maxed out TH11s. But when they pull 6 TH11s, 4 with max wardens, to their NONE, as well as a host of other engineered accounts sprinkled up and down the lineup, that's absurd.

    And let's be very clear here with regard to exactly whom is at fault for giving the matchmaker fits and why war matchmaking is crap. It's not the TH9s with 2 xbows nor the TH10s with dual infernos just because their heroes and walls are close to max at that respective TH level, it's the players intentionally designing accounts for no other purpose than to fool the matchmaker and give it fits. Although technically, Supercell is as fault for allowing this ridiculous situation to continue for as long as it has and dragging their feet on any potential fixes. They're now in the process of trying to cram two tubes worth of toothpaste back into one tube.

    Quote Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx View Post
    Why should a balanced/trying to be balanced clan have to jump through holes and loops just to war?

    Imo, it's beyond ridiculous a balanced clan has to stand on one foot while spinning a daisy and praying to the sun gods just for a fair match. Then players like the OP come in and blame the balanced clan for the mismatch.
    basically ^this, in a nutshell
    Last edited by nerfedname; April 19th, 2017 at 07:04 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx View Post
    Not going to get into the specifics of that thread in particular, I honestly thank you for taking the time out to help others. However, my question is this: Why should a balanced/trying to be balanced clan have to jump through holes and loops just to war?

    Imo, it's beyond ridiculous a balanced clan has to stand on one foot while spinning a daisy and praying to the sun gods just for a fair match. Then players like the OP come in and blame the balanced clan for the mismatch.

    Imo, wars are all over the place right now. Mismatches both ways. My only conclusion as to why is because more and more lopsided accounts are being made with even more clans in a demand for them. Goes back to the whole 'adapt or quit' motto. More clans are 'adapting' slowly reducing the pool of balanced clans.
    That thread is not designed to determine if it's ridiculous or not that balanced clans often match with unbalanced clans, it's just designed to showcase 1. why this happens to often to some clans and rarely to others, and 2. give clans a chance to make long-term changes to their roster if they choose to be balanced (or understand why they're getting the matches that they get if they don't).

    Threads like this, and, really, most of the threads in this subforum do plenty to address the ramifications of it.

    And fyi, there are VERY few clans that just play the game (rather than trying in some form or another to optimize for war) that even need to read that thread. Isn't it kind of common sense to maximize your offense and defense somewhat-evenly, and to progress to the next th when you've done most or all of the upgrades available on the old town hall? If everybody in the clan does just that, nothing else, then that's almost all of the issue, and in fact I'd say that clans that are doing that aren't coming here to complain or seek guidance on the issue b/c they rarely face engineered opponents, and when they do it's a very mildly engineered opponent.

    It's almost always just clans that are full of people looking for an edge in war that get terrible mismatches. Not always, and some weird things can happen if you have really big heroes going into the beginning of th10 or if you win almost every single war, but in general even that can be explained: ie, hugely successful clans are supposed to face off against each other more often than they face clans that lose a lot, and a new th10 with 30/30 heroes would 100% of the time go for infernos first unless he was trying to optimize for war.
    Last edited by MossackFonseca; April 19th, 2017 at 07:27 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    My problem is that over the last few months (or longer) the forum has slowly and steadily seen fit to shift the onus for bad matchups NOT onto the players who carefully manicure accounts specifically to create poor matchups, but rather onto the players buildings balanced and normal accounts that just want a fair match.

    The mindset here has slowly become not "matchmaking sucks, maybe it's the plethora and pervasiveness of TH11s with 45/45/20 heroes and TH7, or less, defenses," into "TH9s shouldn't employ both xbows AND appropriately leveled heroes and walls" (too close to max, you deserve to pull engineers) or "TH10s shouldn't employ both infernos AND appropriately leveled heroes and walls" (again, you're too close to max at that respective TH level, you deserve to pull engineers). A clan like the one the OP matched, and subsequently derided, likely wouldn't have a problem with a matchup pitting them against a TH11 or two especially if they're not fully maxed out TH11s. But when they pull 6 TH11s, 4 with max wardens, to their NONE, as well as a host of other engineered accounts sprinkled up and down the lineup, that's absurd.

    And let's be very clear here with regard to exactly whom is at fault for giving the matchmaker fits and why war matchmaking is crap. It's not the TH9s with 2 xbows nor the TH10s with dual infernos just because their heroes and walls are close to max at that respective TH level, it's the players intentionally designing accounts for no other purpose than to fool the matchmaker and give it fits. Although technically, Supercell is as fault for allowing this ridiculous situation to continue for as long as it has and dragging their feet on any potential fixes. They're now in the process of trying to cram two tubes worth of toothpaste back into one tube.


    basically ^this, in a nutshell
    I 100% agree with you here. It's the fault of engineers that they chose to try winning via spreadsheet instead of via actual attacking/base building skill, 100%. However, I have been on this warpath for 9 months, and I can literally count on one hand the number of times that I've seen a truly "balanced" clan get hosed by a bunch of low defense high offense engineers. And by balanced I'm simply looking at whether they have upgraded all bases in that war in a balanced manner, I'm not even considering th spread with that at all.

    Keep in mind that the examples that you have recently encountered, at least from what I've seen you post, are extremely mild. An extra th11 with low defense? That's nothing. My clan has gotten pretty lose with our th9's upgrading to th10, and we often run with 2-4 mid-high offense 9.5's now. And guess what? We often pull 3-4 more th11's than we bring to the table. Even worse example is warios the other day, his clan pulled SEVEN th11's, and his top 5 were 88k/88k/73/72/71ish, that's right, 2 full th10 and 3 newish 9.5's against 7 freakin' th11's in a 25v25. His opponents perfected his clan with 100% of their 3* coming from dips, most of them 2 full th levels of dip. I'm sure it pissed him off, and my recent wars in Folkvangr have pissed me off, but I'm never going to engineer, and I don't plan to quit, so rather than coming to the forums to complain about the status quo I'm more-strongly encouraging our 9.5's, and 8.5's, to do the common sense thing and just drop down their xbows and infernos.

    I realize that it's the engineers' fault, but I also realize that I can do many things to ensure that I face the truly unbalanced clans very rarely, and that those things also happen to be common sense upgrades for somebody who is not trying to at least mildy engineer his own base.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MossackFonseca View Post

    Keep in mind that the examples that you have recently encountered, at least from what I've seen you post, are extremely mild. An extra th11 with low defense? That's nothing.
    I agree with that for the most part. In our last war the other clan had 2 th11's against my clans lone TH11 (me), and I thought nothing of it. Not a problem, just dumb luck of the draw.

    We did have one whopper of a matchup a couple weeks back, worst I've personally experienced, where they had 3 TH11s to our 1, 2 extra TH10s and an extra TH9 which goes a long way in a 20 man war; they weren't at a real defensive disadvantage either. But even that matchup wasn't as bad as the one offered by the OP in this thread wherein his clan had 12 warden attacks (8 of them maxed wardens) to the other clans none. The match Warios described is ridiculous as well, those matches should never happen.
    Last edited by nerfedname; April 19th, 2017 at 07:53 PM.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    My problem is that over the last few months (or longer) the forum has slowly and steadily seen fit to shift the onus for bad matchups NOT onto the players who carefully manicure accounts specifically to create poor matchups, but rather onto the players buildings balanced and normal accounts that just want a fair match.

    The mindset here has slowly become not "matchmaking sucks, maybe it's the plethora and pervasiveness of TH11s with 45/45/20 heroes and TH7, or less, defenses," into "TH9s shouldn't employ both xbows AND appropriately leveled heroes and walls" (too close to max, you deserve to pull engineers) or "TH10s shouldn't employ both infernos AND appropriately leveled heroes and walls" (again, you're too close to max at that respective TH level, you deserve to pull engineers). A clan like the one the OP matched, and subsequently derided, likely wouldn't have a problem with a matchup pitting them against a TH11 or two especially if they're not fully maxed out TH11s. But when they pull 6 TH11s, 4 with max wardens, to their NONE, as well as a host of other engineered accounts sprinkled up and down the lineup, that's absurd.

    And let's be very clear here with regard to exactly whom is at fault for giving the matchmaker fits and why war matchmaking is crap. It's not the TH9s with 2 xbows nor the TH10s with dual infernos just because their heroes and walls are close to max at that respective TH level, it's the players intentionally designing accounts for no other purpose than to fool the matchmaker and give it fits. Although technically, Supercell is as fault for allowing this ridiculous situation to continue for as long as it has and dragging their feet on any potential fixes. They're now in the process of trying to cram two tubes worth of toothpaste back into one tube.
    +1. It is impossible to build any algorithm to handle infinite variability which is currently what is putting MM through the ringer.

    The issue currently is that engineers consider themselves competitive and pray upon other competitive groups. Skill requirements associated with performance aside, which clan is more competitive when conflicts inevitably arise? Both clans utilize the open development allowed in game so the answer here is subjective, which I think finds its way into much of the conversation and arguments on forums regarding fixes to MM and the like. All of this simply muddies the waters and detracts from the real issue: SC has provided no direction for easily accessible competitive play. Over 2000 clans applied to be in CWL season 2, 2000+ APPLIED for a user generated gameplay mode with serious roster restrictions! How many would elect to participate in seasonal leagues if this was made available in game? 5x, 10x, more? Our clan did not apply and would have made the cut for the lower leagues, but we would be all in if this gameplay mode was easily accessible and supported with in-game features.

    If SC sacks up and chooses how competitive play is to be defined for the community and puts in place a seasonal clan league war system (long overdue) with appropriate incentives to upgrade in line with a transparent base design philosophy and run a specified roster to participate in various leagues, the players will follow suite and most (not all) of the issues surrounding intentionally duping MM will begin to work themselves out.

    Obviously, existing clan war structure must still exist but with a smaller pool and no incentive to stay in this category why would any clan choose to hang out here and game a system that nobody of consequence is using? This makes the current clan war system a casual gameplay mode which the larger casual player base will still enjoy BUT base design is governed by the next level and trickle down will occur.
    Last edited by CasimirEffect; April 19th, 2017 at 08:04 PM.
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  6. #26
    Forum Superstar OnyxDS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    My problem is that over the last few months (or longer) the forum has slowly and steadily seen fit to shift the onus for bad matchups NOT onto the players who carefully manicure accounts specifically to create poor matchups, but rather onto the players buildings balanced and normal accounts that just want a fair match.
    However, bringing a mass of fully maxed TH9s and TH10s into war is neither balanced nor normal. If people are progressing "normally" they upgrade to TH10 once they've fully maxed out TH9. In fact a large majority of people upgrade to TH10 before maxing TH9 heroes and walls. Perma-max accounts are unusual, and the clan very abnormal.

    The individual accounts are balanced ones, but a balanced clan would have a range of TH9s from fresh to max, more or less. My clan sometimes has 1 perma-9 - currently out of 15-20 TH9s in war. So when a clan is entering 50% of their TH9s as fully maxed or whatever, that's not a balanced roster - it's hugely imbalanced towards maxed accounts.

    Long before engineering was a problem the advice was always to war with a typical clan similar to thousands of others. The current advice isn't that different. If you war with a weird-♥♥♥ lineup for which there are few, if any, well-matched clans in the game, then you aren't going to get good matches.

    Once upon a long ago using multiple fully maxed TH9s was the engineering meta. SC nerfed that in Mar 2016 - and my impression was they did so quite deliberately. It looked like the only aspect of the Mar 2016 update that actually worked.

    If you want to war forever as a TH9, then use 20/20 heroes and a mix of lego and lava walls. Then you can get enemy TH9s a bit stronger or a bit weaker than yourself, and the chances are you'll often match to TH9s. 20/20 heroes can 3* any TH9 without trouble. The only reason to keep upgrading them right to the limit is in the search for easier and easier attacks. If you upgrade the TH9 account to the absolute maximum of TH9 so it is equal to or better than every other TH9 in the game, you can't expect a bunch of those accounts to keep matching normal TH9s.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnyxDS View Post
    However, bringing a mass of fully maxed TH9s and TH10s into war is neither balanced nor normal. If people are progressing "normally" they upgrade to TH10 once they've fully maxed out TH9. In fact a large majority of people upgrade to TH10 before maxing TH9 heroes and walls. Perma-max accounts are unusual, and the clan very abnormal.
    Totally disagree with the "not balanced". a maxed account is the most balanced an account can be, other then when you land on a new TH. Otherwise the game is completely broken. By extension, a war roster of the most balanced account is also balanced. May not be normal, you have stats to back up the claim though? I dont think so.

    You probably mean to say, a roster full of maxed accounts is unusual versus the demographics of what other rosters are searching. This could be said of almost any roster though. I hope so. Otherwise you are just making crap up with no evidence.

  8. #28
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    Op. I would love to see how you would fare against a lineup of 6 other th 11s. 8 other th 10s and rest 8,9s that had any sort of defensive upgrades or were "balanced". I suspect you would get annihilated like you just did to them.

    Hard to lose an unfair fight. Taking out th levels below you is nothing to be proud of. I've said it before that 3 staring a th level below you is expected and requires very little skill.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryryshouse View Post
    nope, wrong x 10. soon as you have a couple DE troops done at TH10, the balance is gone never returning until you drop the devil sticks.

    Same at th9 , you got 30/30 and no xbow? not balanced. is there some balance in there? yes. I dont ever see it.
    Ahh the point you missed a balanced max with the MM is all defense and offense maxed, ie permamax. Now a th10 with max lavaloon and no Infernos might actually be balanced according to the MM since troops may not be developed like not upgrading dark barracks to bowlers or regular barracks above loons. These might offset the weight on an IT. See the idea not upgrading troops or barracks as with not upgrading or placing certain defenses may have a balance to the MM.
    It is not that you think it is balanced but does the MM. You may claim the MM is wrong then and needs to be adjusted to your thoughts but that is an opinion. You have no control over the MM. So the plan is to either learn how MM works or complain that the game is unfair.
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  10. #30
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    First, I agree that the "how not to match engineers" bible always posted is a bunch of hogwash.
    i also agree that on these Forums, if someone gets a bad match , they get blamed not the mm
    Also it's very true that Th11 troops and GW are severely under weighted. If I was in charge, anyone with max Th11 troops would be matched to another 11, engineered or not. An 11 doesn't even need high heroes to 3 a near max 10 with some loon attacks.

    Its also true that maxed 9s and 10s can easily get matched up and this gets excused by some as SC giving the push to those folks to move up. I have no idea why anyone would stay a max 10 tho. It has ruined Th10-11 wars for some clans. I know of clans that have either dropped 10s or added 9s.

    The current mm: encourages rushing, encourages low heroes/ high O troops, rewards defenseless 11s the most. SC is enamored with D. They still can't seem to face that 11 GW's and max O are war killers.

    They have jerked everyone around with war mm this last year. No one knows how to upgrade anymore. It's causing too much confusion & quits, especially for 9.5s & 10s.
    Last edited by Freyja1; April 19th, 2017 at 08:31 PM.

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