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Thread: How to get Fair and Competitive Wars, and Avoid Engineered Clans

  1. #461
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    Read this and give feedback. This is one idea posted on Ideas and request sub forum.

  2. #462
    Millennial Club CasimirEffect's Avatar
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    Tips for balanced clans trying to correct matchups with engineered clans:

    1. Spin 25v+ if running 3+ 11s and make sure your TH10s with infernos match 11 at least 1 to 1. In 20v wars 1 TH 11 accounts for 10% of the attacks in that clan, MM poorly handles how this affect the outcome of any war... for example you spin 4 TH11s in 20v and match with 5, now the TH11s cover half the roster and any roster design done to protect your plan at positions 11-20 is meaningless because all those bases are covered by dips. Its not fun to participate in wars like this and it is mostly avoidable by giving consideration to TH11 maths based on your lineup. If you don't run TH11s and instead run a bunch of TH10s up top you can rest assured that engineered clans will prey on your clan and will pair in some unwinnable matchups, either drop some 10s or find some 11s to correct your spin. You don't have other options if spinning many 10s up top unless the coming update reshapes the entire game, so network and get people in clans that align with their weight, interest, and clan goals (more on this below - we have done it with great success recently).

    2. Stack your roster top to bottom and don't offer freebies based on typical weight trade strategies. The goal is to make these clans really feel the pain and have to stretch attacks up top to clear based that are not handled at the bottom and middle. Every attack for the opposing clan must be difficult 1-25+. Having TH7/8 and fresh 9s in a lineup spinning 11s is asking for a beating if you are a balanced clan. Network, swap members with clans, and get your roster fixed.

    3. Excellent base design. There are plenty of avenues available to steal bases if you can't build them. Having great bases makes tips 1 and 2 that much more reliable.

    4. Rely on understanding that most, not all, engineered clans play looser than typical balanced clans and many with these accounts enjoy trolling so troll them back! Check their available troops and camps during prep day and change clan castles to combat what they appear to be most comfortable with... A few fails go a long way in these wars and you can expect some accounts to move way up the chain early in war as a demoralizing tactic. When they fail the tides turn. Plan for it, adjust, and reap the benefits.

    5. Sometimes you have to play tighter and earn TH11 triples (we have faced 3 such clans that quit 18 hours into war after we tripled 2 of their 11s). These lopsided rosters offer an opportunity for lower accounts to show uppers important pieces of attacks liek funneling, entry, traps, queen walk pathing, etc. Take advantage of your what you have to work with and gain the same information these clans gain from having additional heavy attacks.

    6. Sometimes the advantage is just too much. Try your best and have fun win or lose. It's one war and a game, if you follow these guidelines and play well you will likely beat the next clan you face like this.

    We have faced quite a few clans like this including one of the top 10 winning-est clans in game and beat them handily using these strategies. Our most recent match had our opponent give up after in a 71-57 beating despite the TH11 advantage that many on the forums rave about. Here are the lineups for that war:

    Good Guys Bad Guys
    Position TH Weight BK AQ GW TH Weight BK AQ GW Comments
    1 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    2 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    3 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 42 45 20
    4 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 40 42 20
    5 11 107 40 45 20 11 108 45 45 20
    6 10 89 40 40 11 107 42 45 20
    7 11 89 26 31 11 10 88 30 37
    8 10 86 30 40 10 88 27 30
    9 10 85 30 35 11 71 35 35 9
    10 10 83 30 33 10 69 20 21
    11 10 70 30 30 11 69 30 30 ***max lalo
    12 9 69 30 30 9 69 25 30
    13 9 69 30 27 9 68 18 24
    14 9 69 29 29 9 68 20 20
    15 9 68 30 30 9 68 20 20
    16 9 68 21 23 9 68 14 14
    17 9 67 18 15 9 62 9 6
    18 9 67 18 18 10 60 19 20 ***full LV11 walls
    19 10 66 21 23 9 56 10 5
    20 9 66 21 25 9 55 10 4
    21 9 66 22 22 11 54 30 30 8 ***max walls
    22 9 65 14 15 8 47 6
    23 9 62 30 30 8 41 5
    24 9 60 11 14 10 32 26 25 ***full LV11 walls
    25 9 58 16 20 8 22 1
    Totals 1965 717 755 111 245 1806 614 618 137
    Weight 1965 1806
    Heroes 1583 1369

    As you can see, this matchups is technically "fair" for both clans. Their additional offesnive weight combined with our roster design provides us the additional defensive weight and hero levels in trade for their 1 full TH11, additional wardens, and less infernos. Naturally we expected their low 11s to move up to our 10s and made a few adjustments to combat lalo for this war since thats what all 11s had in camps... they had 3 fails early 11v(our)10s and if you look at the rosters below, that doesn't leave much support for their outclassed TH8/9s. We will take that trade all day long as our 9s clear anything without infernos and 10s and 11s take turns smashing 11s through iteration.


    I hope this helps a few clans struggling with these issues. Best of luck!
    Last edited by CasimirEffect; April 22nd, 2017 at 02:25 AM.

  3. #463
    Sorry but this is 47 pages of wasted time. Why waste all this time when supercell can just do what they should have done years ago - include offensive troops in war weight. It makes zero sense for war weight to be determined on defenses +/- heros. Engineered bases are ruining clan wars and many people have stopped warring because the disadvantage is just to unfair.

  4. #464
    Millennial Club CasimirEffect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comeonsuper View Post
    Sorry but this is 47 pages of wasted time. Why waste all this time when supercell can just do what they should have done years ago - include offensive troops in war weight. It makes zero sense for war weight to be determined on defenses +/- heros. Engineered bases are ruining clan wars and many people have stopped warring because the disadvantage is just to unfair.
    Trying reading the post above, and many preceding, rather than the page count... Try to make your second post more valuable than the first
    Last edited by CasimirEffect; April 22nd, 2017 at 02:26 AM.

  5. #465
    Millennial Club CasimirEffect's Avatar
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    As I mentioned yesterday, there is a way to handle many of the offensively skewed engineered clans but some match ups are too much. Which match ups tend to consistently be difficult to overcome though? One in particular stands out: the ability to intentionally design a roster of balanced to trade weight lower accounts for more TH11s results in very lopsided match-ups in favor of the clan with lighter accounts at the bottom when this is done well and takes into account TH11 maths mentioned in my previous post. Check out a match ups against a very old clan that has been doing whatever it is that they do for a long time to the tune of 400+ wins:

    Good Guys Bad Guys
    Position TH Weight BK AQ GW TH Weight BK AQ GW
    1 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    2 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    3 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    4 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    5 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    6 11 107 40 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    7 10 89 40 40 11 109 43 45 20
    8 11 89 26 31 11 11 109 36 40 20
    9 10 88 30 40 11 91 40 41 20
    10 10 87 25 32 10 89 40 40
    11 10 86 30 40 10 88 33 35
    12 10 85 30 35 10 86 30 30
    13 10 83 30 33 10 86 30 30
    14 10 70 30 30 10 84 28 27
    15 9 69 30 30 10 84 20 25
    16 9 69 30 27 10 76 22 25
    17 9 69 29 29 10 75 35 35
    18 9 68 30 30 9 65 11 14
    19 9 68 21 23 9 65 12 13
    20 9 67 18 15 9 64 10 9
    21 9 67 18 18 8 55 10
    22 10 66 21 23 8 54 10
    23 9 66 22 22 8 54 8
    24 9 62 30 30 8 52 8
    25 9 58 16 20 8 5 0
    Totals 2058 771 818 131 246 2045 696 679 180
    Weight 2058 2045
    Heroes 1720 1555

    By community standards we have an advantage in heroes and weight perhaps MM sees it this way as well, but this matchup is far from favorable for us when focusing on the section of the chain that matters most. Dips cover our advantage at the bottom and +6 max attacks paired with +2 max defense bases and the additional 10s on their side is too much to realistically overcome against even a mediocre clan, our opponent in this war is not mediocre. In fact, our opponent does not even attack with TH8s, not even scouts! Wars are running assuming they add no value aside from the advantage provided during search. These type of match ups where the victor is determine at the moment prep day begins should NEVER occur.

    The primary issue with match ups like this is that it creates dissension in the clan: passionate and committed members have quit the game over wars like this, some have taken extended breaks, and others have ventured off to temporarily join clans using this weight trade strategy then return explaining how we can design our roster to exploit MM. All of these are concerning, but the last one more so than the rest because (a) SC has stated publicly that it does not support engineering (b) SC has also shown great support for league war clans in recent months. Given these two pieces, if we are simply to look at MM and how wars are affected by roster design in this case without taking into account public statements one could easily assume that SC would have made statements in the past that are the complete opposite of what we have been provided, meaning (a) support engineering (b) do not support clan league rosters.

    This is the broken piece of MM and disjointed nature of public statements and design philosophy - as it may pertain to business agenda (pure speculation, do not focus on this piece as its simply my way of making sense of the situation)- I have been referring to. I simply wanted to add empirical data to represent my many complaints on the subject.

    Engineering a roster to a win-more type strategy, as a few of our members have suggested since October, is not a realistic option for clans concerned about branding and networking within the competitive community, thus win-streaks and win % have very little meaning in "farm wars".

    All of these issues come back to transparent and firm design choices pertaining to competitive play! I hope the upcoming update addresses some of these problems rather than sweeping them under the rug with new toys.

    In the meantime, we look forward to a fair war in Pot Luck this Monday, woo-hoo!
    Last edited by CasimirEffect; April 22nd, 2017 at 10:07 PM.

  6. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasimirEffect View Post
    As I mentioned yesterday, there is a way to handle many of the offensively skewed engineered clans but some match ups are too much. Which match ups tend to consistently be difficult to overcome though? One in particular stands out: the ability to intentionally design a roster of balanced to trade weight lower accounts for more TH11s results in very lopsided match-ups in favor of the clan with lighter accounts at the bottom when this is done well and takes into account TH11 maths mentioned in my previous post. Check out a match ups against a very old clan that has been doing whatever it is that they do for a long time to the tune of 400+ wins:

    Good Guys Bad Guys
    Position TH Weight BK AQ GW TH Weight BK AQ GW
    1 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    2 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    3 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    4 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    5 11 109 45 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    6 11 107 40 45 20 11 109 45 45 20
    7 10 89 40 40 11 109 43 45 20
    8 11 89 26 31 11 11 109 36 40 20
    9 10 88 30 40 11 91 40 41 20
    10 10 87 25 32 10 89 40 40
    11 10 86 30 40 10 88 33 35
    12 10 85 30 35 10 86 30 30
    13 10 83 30 33 10 86 30 30
    14 10 70 30 30 10 84 28 27
    15 9 69 30 30 10 84 20 25
    16 9 69 30 27 10 76 22 25
    17 9 69 29 29 10 75 35 35
    18 9 68 30 30 9 65 11 14
    19 9 68 21 23 9 65 12 13
    20 9 67 18 15 9 64 10 9
    21 9 67 18 18 8 55 10
    22 10 66 21 23 8 54 10
    23 9 66 22 22 8 54 8
    24 9 62 30 30 8 52 8
    25 9 58 16 20 8 5 0
    Totals 2058 771 818 131 246 2045 696 679 180
    Weight 2058 2045
    Heroes 1720 1555

    By community standards we have an advantage in heroes and weight perhaps MM sees it this way as well, but this matchup is far from favorable for us when focusing on the section of the chain that matters most. Dips cover our advantage at the bottom and +6 max attacks paired with +2 max defense bases and the additional 10s on their side is too much to realistically overcome against even a mediocre clan, our opponent in this war is not mediocre. In fact, our opponent does not even attack with TH8s, not even scouts! Wars are running assuming they add no value aside from the advantage provided during search. These type of match ups where the victor is determine at the moment prep day begins should NEVER occur.

    The primary issue with match ups like this is that it creates dissension in the clan: passionate and committed members have quit the game over wars like this, some have taken extended breaks, and others have ventured off to temporarily join clans using this weight trade strategy then return explaining how we can design our roster to exploit MM. All of these are concerning, but the last one more so than the rest because (a) SC has stated publicly that it does not support engineering (b) SC has also shown great support for league war clans in recent months. Given these two pieces, if we are simply to look at MM and how wars are affected by roster design in this case without taking into account public statements one could easily assume that SC would have made statements in the past that are the complete opposite of what we have been provided, meaning (a) support engineering (b) do not support clan league rosters.

    This is the broken piece of MM and disjointed nature of public statements and design philosophy - as it may pertain to business agenda (pure speculation, do not focus on this piece as its simply my way of making sense of the situation)- I have been referring too. I simply wanted to add empirical data to represent my many complaints on the subject.

    Engineering a roster to a win-more type strategy, as a few of our members have suggested since October, is not a realistic option for clans concerned about branding and networking within the competitive community, thus win-streaks and win % have very little meaning in "farm wars".

    All of these issues come back to transparent and firm design choices pertaining to competitive play! I hope the upcoming update addresses some of these problems rather than sweeping them under the rug with new toys.

    In the meantime, we look forward to a fair war in Pot Luck this Monday, woo-hoo!
    LOL, I consider this matchup pretty even by todays standards. You got lucky.

    We got this:
    We: 6 TH11 / 9 TH10 / 4 TH9 / 2 TH8 / 3 TH3
    Them: 11 TH11 / 5 TH10 / 3 TH9 / 1 TH8 / 5 TH3

    Rushing to TH11, getting warden asap is the way to go these days it seems

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasimirEffect View Post
    Check out a match ups against a very old clan that has been doing whatever it is that they do for a long time to the tune of 400+ wins:
    I'd say "whatever it is they do" isn't all that unusual or questionable. A 10.5 a couple of 9.5s. The TH8s look like normal bases, and there is one junk base - which could be deliberate or just to make up the numbers.

    It looks like you've been caught out by the MM's belief that the TH8s at the bottom matter; which is probably also going to end my clan's 23 win streak in a few hours. Their extra TH8s just meant we were scouting top bases with TH9s while they scouted with TH8s.
    TH9.5 | 2000+ war stars | Trophy record as TH9: 4579 (rank #4141, #67 in UK); as a 9.5: 5282
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  8. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnyxDS View Post
    I'd say "whatever it is they do" isn't all that unusual or questionable. A 10.5 a couple of 9.5s. The TH8s look like normal bases, and there is one junk base - which could be deliberate or just to make up the numbers.

    It looks like you've been caught out by the MM's belief that the TH8s at the bottom matter; which is probably also going to end my clan's 23 win streak in a few hours. Their extra TH8s just meant we were scouting top bases with TH9s while they scouted with TH8s.
    "whatever it is that they do" was intended to cover roster design over their clans lifetime as it has inevitably changed over time, not intended to present something as unusual or questionable. Your summary is spot on.

    Weight trade in MM has been a nightmare. It's not fun pulling in additional 11s and having to triple 2 or more to compete.

    Sorry about your streak, had to happen sometime. What townhall breakdown and war size do you run to maintain?
    Last edited by CasimirEffect; April 22nd, 2017 at 01:49 PM.

  9. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prutser View Post
    Rushing to TH11, getting warden asap is the way to go these days it seems
    We beat the clans that "rush to TH11, getting warden asap" consistently. See my previous post and try not to troll too hard.

    Our opponent in the post you cited is not rushed and we are staring down additional max accounts up top. This is much more difficult to overcome than skewed offense and represents one of the worst mismatches we have seen in a few months outside of 50v matchups.
    Last edited by CasimirEffect; April 22nd, 2017 at 01:54 PM.

  10. #470
    This is our way to contact the developers and let them know when we want change. When you feel things are making the game unfair (which most feel isn't fun), tell them. Because if the game isn't fun, people stop playing, they'll stop making money.

    Quote Originally Posted by TankSinatra View Post
    Well done. I'd argue that number 4 is a weak effect, but if the list is meant to be in order of importance, that's fine. Highlighting address bar, hitting 'control-c', waiting for the next engineering thread....


    Edited to add -

    There's always been more heat than light when discussing this subject on the forum. Engineers see false reports everywhere, and over time start dismissing legit concerns. This describes me at times, took me a long time to see that things had changed in March to make lopsided bases OP.

    Anti-engineers want the world to feel their pain and get very frustrated when that doesn't happen, or when the forum dismisses their well-meant suggestions of a fix. But here's the thing, this is a user forum. We can yap all day about the pros & cons of different changes (Minimum TH weight! Ban! Neverending tutorial to enforce the upgrade path!) but SC will come to their own conclusions using data we don't have access to, to support a huge and diverse player base of which you are a very small niche.

    None of us has the power to change MM, but we CAN implement the above roster changes.

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