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Thread: How to get Fair and Competitive Wars, and Avoid Engineered Clans

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    How to get Fair and Competitive Wars, and Avoid Engineered Clans

    A group of us (some engineers, some maxers) have been having a pretty good discussion about how to avoid seeing a constant barrage of Engineered opponents in war, and to almost always get fair and competitive wars. Keep in mind, this is not the place to read if you want to get "easy" wars. If you follow these guidelines you will run into clans with permabased 30/30 hero th9's, 1000++ war stars on every person in clan, lvl 12+ clans, etc etc, more often than you were before. However, what you won't run into is clans with a 40/40/20 th11 and a max offense defenseless th10 sitting at the bottom of their war roster in a th8/9 war. Every war, or almost every war, will be determined by your skill in attacking and building solid war bases, and by your opponent's skill in the same areas.

    I'm adding an extra paragraph here today (5/17/2017) to reiterate that recent war record now seems to be the most important factor in matchmaking. Other things still matter obviously, but don't freak out if you run into a badly-engineered clan with a 0 win streak every now and then, it's going to happen. And, if you win more than 4-5 in a row, also don't freak out if you get a significant disadvantage against a highly-engineered clan, that will also become more and more common as your win streak increases.

    (9/6/17) Adding a 2nd caveat here, as the recent mm changes may make it less likely, perhaps a LOT less likely, that you'll match with an engineered clan if you follow the recommended guidelines here. Please leave comments in thread if you have follow the guidelines listed and still meet engineers, there are quite possibly some additional things to consider with the new mm.

    1. Recent war record really matters: as you win more and more, you get a progressively more-punitive war weight penalty. Eventually, in every clan that I've ever been in, this gets to the point that you start matching up with engineered clans, or just regular clans that have a clear advantage on paper over you. I've been extremely active in 3 different clans, one of which has gotten as high as a 50 win streak, and believe me when I say that you'll eventually run into an unwinnable war matchup unless you heavily engineer. I, personally, war to have fun and compete, and I think that most people in this game are of a like mindset. But if it's just all about winning to you, then this is the wrong thread.

    2. Balanced bases - mild .5 upgrading by starting with a few key offensive troops, or getting your queen to 5 or 10 is fine, but once you start getting real offense at the new th then you need to start working on your defense. Failure to do so causes issues with your balanced bases checkbox in the mm algorithm.

    3. Don't dump low th's at the bottom of your roster. This puts you into the full on "unbalanced war roster" category. Ie, the mm algorithm views you as roster engineered and includes you with the other engineered clans.

    4. Keep a tight spread of th's - But not too tight. If you want to match with a comparable opponent, then you want to have a war roster that is relatively similar to a bunch of other clans. A good rule of thumb is to try to stick to around a 3 th spread on your war roster, though the actual power of the bases matters a lot more than the specific th level of each base. I have personally seen a huge number of fair and even contests when running th7-9, th 8-10, and th9-11 wars, though generally slipping in a new th 11 in an 8-10 roster or a high 8 in a 9-11 roster doesn't cause issues. Certainly there are other typical war roster compositions, as well. Skrags has a good discussion about this topic in post 210 of this thread, here:

    https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...=1#post9632806

    5. Restart your war search every 30 minutes: the longer your search takes, the more relaxed the mm algorithm gets on the parameters for your opponent. I have never seen an unwinnable war that hit in under 30 minutes, and the vast majority that I get that fast are extremely even and fair..ie, fun. - I must mention here that a close friend of mine was personally told by Jonas that restarting war searches has a "minimal" impact on your war matchup. However, "minimal" is quite subjective, and sometimes it doesn't take much relaxation of parameters to allow a well-engineered clan to slip into your pool of prospective opponents.

    6. Do not permabase. At least, if you DO permabase, don't be suprised if you regularly match with .5 of the next higher th. To the war mm, a fully max th9 looks the same as a 9.5 that wasn't quite fully maxed at th9 but has sf and a couple of troops upgraded. If you have a very large number of "max" bases at a specific th in your clan, then the mm will break its arm patting itself on the back while it matches you with a bunch of .5's from the next th above. Can you get away with a fully max th9 or th10 here and there? Sure, if only one or two of you do it, but be careful that half your clan doesn't camp at that level. If you find your clan in this position at present, then perhaps consider moving a few up to the next th level. Remember, an early .5 doesn't count as unbalanced, it's only when you start maxing out offense/heroes without upgrading any defenses that the mm starts viewing you as unbalanced.

    Keep in mind that going a bit outside of these parameters is usually ok, but the farther you stray the more likely you'll be to get an unbalanced war. Including a th 6 or 7 in a th8-10 war is usually ok. Including a couple of 8.5 or 9.5 is usually ok. Letting search go for 45m or an hour instead of 30m isn't terrible most of the time. However, if you get lazy or careless and do all of those things, every time, then you're significantly increasing your chances for an unbalanced war (might favor you, might favor opponent). Also, the longer your war win streak, the more likely you are to match with other very successful clans, so if you get away with going a bit outside of these parameters and still get a clump of fair and competitive wars, that's not guarantee that after winning 5 or 6 in a row you can still do that and get another fair and competitive war on #7.

    The above are my own thoughts on the subject. Additionally, Chief Tuck, Denton and others have added much to the conversation, I'll link their posts below:

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefTuk View Post
    TH spread seems to be a really, big factor in how likely you are to faced bases engineered beyond the .5 stage. People who put a bunch of TH3s at the bottom in the hopes of getting easier matchups are having that backfire when they face defenseless bases at the bottom.

    Denton linked most of this in post #53 here: https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...=1#post9165547

    We are hoping that this thread will help to answer a lot of questions that people have when running into a slew of Engineered opponents, and, hopefully, will help the community to get more-balanced and fair war matchups going forward. Or, at the least, it will help you to understand why you're getting the matchups that you get, and allow you to make a decision from there about whether you want to continue getting those matchups or make changes to prevent them in the future.

    This thread kind of got a group of us started on the conversation:

    https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...gineered-clans
    Last edited by MossackFonseca; September 7th, 2017 at 02:04 AM.

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    Forum Elder TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Well done. I'd argue that win streak is a weak effect if its an effect at all, but if the list is meant to be in order of importance, that's fine. Highlighting address bar, hitting 'control-c', waiting for the next engineering thread....


    Edited to add -

    There's always been more heat than light when discussing this subject on the forum. Engineers see false reports everywhere, and over time start dismissing legit concerns. This describes me at times, took me a long time to see that things had changed in March to make lopsided bases OP.

    Anti-engineers want the world to feel their pain and get very frustrated when that doesn't happen, or when the forum dismisses their well-meant suggestions of a fix. But here's the thing, this is a user forum. We can yap all day about the pros & cons of different changes (Minimum TH weight! Ban! Neverending tutorial to enforce the upgrade path!) but SC will come to their own conclusions using data we don't have access to, to support a huge and diverse player base of which you are a very small niche.

    None of us has the power to change MM, but we CAN implement the above roster changes.
    Last edited by TankSinatra; September 7th, 2017 at 01:49 PM. Reason: Post I responded to changed.
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    Some of these suggestions are good, or at least fairly decent. Others do not work at all, and some are more speculative than anything.

    1.) Keeping a tight spread of TH's can help. But it's also true that a clan composed entirely of one TH level, say TH9, can run into an engineered clan with TH10+ offensive bases. I think it was Dorsan who proposed this scenario before. Essentially, this CAN help but is mostly speculative and even warring with only one TH level doesn't eliminate the possibility of encountering engineers.

    2.) Balanced bases is one of the TRUE ways a clan can avoid engineers based on the "checkbox" part of matchmaking. It's not a silver bullet, but helps far more than anything else on the list.

    3.) Do bigger wars? I definitely think this hurts more than it helps. NightmareGuild used to war at 50s (before they retired in a hissy fit cause they couldn't mindlessly game the matchmaker anymore), and UPH did 40s. Winterfell gods and #6M do larger wars iirc as well. My clan has run into engineers at 10man wars, and most recently at 20man wars. There really doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme and reason, but overall I think there are more heavily engineered clans that are uber-serious about war the larger you go (the Goat Herd has run into several engineered clans in a row at 50people I think, I'd have to double check with Holps).

    4.) Don't win too much? Now that's just kinda counterproductive now isn't it? The logic of "I don't wanna run into an engineered clan and risk losing a war... so I must lose this war" just does not compute.

    5.) Restarting the search is only moderately effective (if effective at all according to what Skrags has gleaned from SC) and cuts both ways. Yes, assuming the search parameters are widened substantially you can both encounter an engineered clan that will wipe the floor with you after a long search, OR you could encounter a cupcake clan that you wipe the floor with. It's random and thus doesn't really have an effect one way or another.

    6.) Encourage your clanmates to max heroes/lab. Well that's just common sense and goes for clans wishing to avoid engineers, maxer clans, or anything in between. If anything however, I would think that maxing offense would help pull more engineered clans since they're maxing offense too.

    Overall there really isn't a single silver bullet available for dodging engineering clans. Most clans will run into one soon enough as there are a plethora of engineered clans out there doing their thing. Furthermore I think it's disingenuous and a little insulting to tell mom/pop friends/family clans, or casual clans, or maxer clans, that THEY are the problem and that THEY need to do certain things in order to "engineer" their clan and lineup to avoid ACTUAL engineered clans.

    SC kept the cat our the bag for so long post-March that engineered clans are everywhere; it's these engineered clans and bases that confound the matchmaker and make regular war matchmaking all but impossible sometimes and to make matters worse, they SPECIFICALLY ENGINEER THEIR CLAN to pull regular clans (as this is how they gain the advantage). It frustrates me beyond belief whenever some fresh spawn comes here and says "Engineering must stop, look at this horrific matchup my clan just got" and a swarm of posters jump on them with inane suggestions like "that TH7 you brought is what's killing you and why you got that match, even though it's your brothers account I'd drop it from war" as if that ONE thing would eliminate the possibility of said clan every matching engineers again. It's mostly speculative nonsense.

    If you're stacking your lineup with TH3s at the bottom, that's one thing. If you're rocking a bunch of THx.5s that's another. You have no one to blame but yourself if you run into a clan that does the engineering thing better than yours. But if you're just a bunch of regular folks and you try a 20man war with TH7 to TH10 accounts cause that's your clan comp and get a monster of an engineered clan as a foe, don't try and pin the blame on the casual clan just looking for a fair war when it's not THEIR clan that's jacking up the matchmaking parameters...
    Last edited by nerfedname; December 29th, 2016 at 05:14 PM.
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    At what point do we start to say to ourselves, that these 'tips' to avoid engineered matchups, are just a bunch of malarky? Especially when the engineers start coming onto the threads and saying "well done, good post" lol.... the only time there will be more even matchups is when they put parameters on war eligibility. Ie; can't upgrade warden to level 6 until the eagle artillery is purchased from shop. Can't upgrade king and queen to level 36 until inferno towers are purchased. Cant upgrade king/queen to level 11 until xbows are purchased. This will take much of the guesswork out of the matchmaker and will leave the victories in wars solely up to the gameplay. Until then, people will exploit, read clan war odds hocus pocus like the one just posted in here, and focus on all the wrong things in this game except making it a skill game with attacking and defending against comparable bases that can be attacked or defended successfully. Just put it in motion and everyone will come to grips with it and adapt. The "dont tell me how to play" argument is baseless now. This is the lesser of two evils, and it is certainly better for the spirit of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    Some of these suggestions are good, or at least fairly decent. Others do not work at all, and some are more speculative than anything.

    [snip]
    Very well stated, as always. Agree.
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    Forum Elder TankSinatra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    Some of these suggestions are good, or at least fairly decent. Others do not work at all, and some are more speculative than anything.
    I'd like to see the list pared down too. In fact, I think it could be taken down to

    1. Small TH range and no burners at the bottom
    2. No lopsided/offense heavy bases (.5 for short term only)

    Implement those, and you'll see a dramatic reduction in engineered opponents. Or, spend an equal amount of effort making proposals and arguing on the forum, for a guaranteed effect of precisely zero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daddylindo View Post
    At what point do we start to say to ourselves, that these 'tips' to avoid engineered matchups, are just a bunch of malarky? Especially when the engineers start coming onto the threads and saying "well done, good post" lol.... the only time there will be more even matchups is when they put parameters on war eligibility. Ie; can't upgrade warden to level 6 until the eagle artillery is purchased from shop. Can't upgrade king and queen to level 36 until inferno towers are purchased. Cant upgrade king/queen to level 11 until xbows are purchased. This will take much of the guesswork out of the matchmaker and will leave the victories in wars solely up to the gameplay. Until then, people will exploit, read clan war odds hocus pocus like the one just posted in here, and focus on all the wrong things in this game except making it a skill game with attacking and defending against comparable bases that can be attacked or defended successfully. Just put it in motion and everyone will come to grips with it and adapt. The "dont tell me how to play" argument is baseless now. This is the lesser of two evils, and it is certainly better for the spirit of the game.
    Not everyone who plays CoC plays strictly for war, imposing rules to what you can and can not upgrade might benefit war matches, but why punish others who do not war seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warios View Post
    Not everyone who plays CoC plays strictly for war, imposing rules to what you can and can not upgrade might benefit war matches, but why punish others who do not war seriously?
    They wont be punished, they just wont be allowed in clan wars. So i correct that, you can upgrade your heroes as much as u want. But your bar will be black for war eligibilty until you purchase everything from the shop. And if you dont war, why wouldnt you want an eagle protecting your base in multiplayer? I know i would.

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    Forum Contender Warios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daddylindo View Post
    They wont be punished, they just wont be allowed in clan wars. So i correct that, you can upgrade your heroes as much as u want. But your bar will be black for war eligibilty until you purchase everything from the shop. And if you dont war, why wouldnt you want an eagle protecting your base in multiplayer? I know i would.
    They would be punished by not being able to use all the features that are available in the game.

    You seem to very passionate about how things are done, If you hate it so much, go play one of the other 1,000,000 games out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warios View Post
    They would be punished by not being able to use all the features that are available in the game.

    You seem to very passionate about how things are done, If you hate it so much, go play one of the other 1,000,000 games out there.
    I just said they can upgrade their heroes as much as they want. They just need to purchase everything from the shop for war eligibility. That would put everybody on a level playing field. They wouldnt be restricted from any part of the game. WHY IS EVERYONE AFRAID OF MAXING DEFENSES?

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