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Thread: How to get Fair and Competitive Wars, and Avoid Engineered Clans

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by daddylindo View Post
    I just said they can upgrade their heroes as much as they want. They just need to purchase everything from the shop for war eligibility. That would put everybody on a level playing field. They wouldnt be restricted from any part of the game. WHY IS EVERYONE AFRAID OF MAXING DEFENSES?
    BECAUSE THE MATCHMAKER PUNISHES YOU IF YOU DO

    or at least it used to, at the moment its not clear, maxing defences ahead if offence is still punished, as it has been since day 1.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikingchief View Post
    BECAUSE THE MATCHMAKER PUNISHES YOU IF YOU DO

    or at least it used to, at the moment its not clear, maxing defences ahead if offence is still punished, as it has been since day 1.
    But this new implementation would negate that. And it would ultimately lead to almost exact number of town halls on each side.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerfedname View Post
    Some of these suggestions are good, or at least fairly decent. Others do not work at all, and some are more speculative than anything.

    1.) Keeping a tight spread of TH's can help. But it's also true that a clan composed entirely of one TH level, say TH9, can run into an engineered clan with TH10+ offensive bases. I think it was Dorsan who proposed this scenario before. Essentially, this CAN help but is mostly speculative and even warring with only one TH level doesn't eliminate the possibility of encountering engineers.

    2.) Balanced bases is one of the TRUE ways a clan can avoid engineers based on the "checkbox" part of matchmaking. It's not a silver bullet, but helps far more than anything else on the list.

    3.) Do bigger wars? I definitely think this hurts more than it helps. NightmareGuild used to war at 50s (before they retired in a hissy fit cause they couldn't mindlessly game the matchmaker anymore), and UPH did 40s. Winterfell gods and #6M do larger wars iirc as well. My clan has run into engineers at 10man wars, and most recently at 20man wars. There really doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme and reason, but overall I think there are more heavily engineered clans that are uber-serious about war the larger you go (the Goat Herd has run into several engineered clans in a row at 50people I think, I'd have to double check with Holps).

    4.) Don't win too much? Now that's just kinda counterproductive now isn't it? The logic of "I don't wanna run into an engineered clan and risk losing a war... so I must lose this war" just does not compute.

    5.) Restarting the search is only moderately effective (if effective at all according to what Skrags has gleaned from SC) and cuts both ways. Yes, assuming the search parameters are widened substantially you can both encounter an engineered clan that will wipe the floor with you after a long search, OR you could encounter a cupcake clan that you wipe the floor with. It's random and thus doesn't really have an effect one way or another.

    6.) Encourage your clanmates to max heroes/lab. Well that's just common sense and goes for clans wishing to avoid engineers, maxer clans, or anything in between. If anything however, I would think that maxing offense would help pull more engineered clans since they're maxing offense too.

    Overall there really isn't a single silver bullet available for dodging engineering clans. Most clans will run into one soon enough as there are a plethora of engineered clans out there doing their thing. Furthermore I think it's disingenuous and a little insulting to tell mom/pop friends/family clans, or casual clans, or maxer clans, that THEY are the problem and that THEY need to do certain things in order to "engineer" their clan and lineup to avoid ACTUAL engineered clans.

    SC kept the cat our the bag for so long post-March that engineered clans are everywhere; it's these engineered clans and bases that confound the matchmaker and make regular war matchmaking all but impossible sometimes and to make matters worse, they SPECIFICALLY ENGINEER THEIR CLAN to pull regular clans (as this is how they gain the advantage). It frustrates me beyond belief whenever some fresh spawn comes here and says "Engineering must stop, look at this horrific matchup my clan just got" and a swarm of posters jump on them with inane suggestions like "that TH7 you brought is what's killing you and why you got that match, even though it's your brothers account I'd drop it from war" as if that ONE thing would eliminate the possibility of said clan every matching engineers again. It's mostly speculative nonsense.

    If you're stacking your lineup with TH3s at the bottom, that's one thing. If you're rocking a bunch of THx.5s that's another. You have no one to blame but yourself if you run into a clan that does the engineering thing better than yours. But if you're just a bunch of regular folks and you try a 20man war with TH7 to TH10 accounts cause that's your clan comp and get a monster of an engineered clan as a foe, don't try and pin the blame on the casual clan just looking for a fair war when it's not THEIR clan that's jacking up the matchmaking parameters...
    I'm suprised to see you jump into this thread and trash it. Why not offer up your thoughts on what actually helps/hurts the mm? I think that a lot of people could benefit from a basic understanding of why they keep matching up with engineering clans.

    To be clear, no single thing on this is going to ensure perfect war matches every time. But, if you follow the guidelines listed here, you're going to get fair matches the vast majority of the time. You might have some matches with a 25% chance to win, some with 75%, and some matches with mildly engineered opponents, but you're not going to run into very many at all that are unwinnable for you OR your opponent.

    As far as your accusations of "speculation", the things that I wrote are not just random speculation, they're based upon my personal experience leading or being involved in hundreds of war searches, including back to back wars in 2 very different clans since the most recent mm update. I do not claim to have more knowledge than you on this subject, but mine is certainly on a par with yours at least.

    Regarding jumping on people who complain about unfair wars: the whole point of this thread is to help people to understand WHY they're getting heavily engineered opponents. If the reason is stacking a bunch of th3/4 at the bottom of roster, at least they know why it's happening and can then decide whether to change. If it's b/c Cousin Vinny has a th4 and rest of clan is th9+, then they at least know what the issue is when they allow him to continue in war. If the issue is too many perma .5's, again, they know. If they keep taking 4 hours to find a match, again, it helps to know that the search parameters expand slightly over time, and they can decide if that's perhaps causing bad matchups, or at least contributing to them. And I might change the wording up a bit, but it's important to know that winning a whole bunch gives you a significant war weight penalty, which can often pair you up with highly engineered clans even when your clan is not engineered at all and otherwise follows our recommendations.

    I have 2 accounts full time in forum goat herd, we have been hit or miss vs engineered opponents. Most of the time that we run into them, we are either coming off a 7-10 match win streak or we have a bunch of 11's at top and some people put lowbie alts of th4-5 at the bottom, though some times we just randomly match with them. I have been heavily involved with the discussions there on ways to try to get a more-consistent matchup of "tough but fair" matches, and it's just really tough in a 50v50 clan that has no restrictions on entry other than no engineered bases. Overally, I'd say that we get about 25% easy wars/walkovers, 25% highly engineered opponents with nearly impossible odds, and about 50% are somewhere along the spectrum of "tough but fair". That has been the case for as long as we've had the clan. We thought that it was getting better after the latest patch, but we won too many in a row then got 4/5 wars vs aggressively engineered clans, so...it's back to about where it was for us.

    I edited the OP down to things that I considering to be the most important factors in matchmaking. Do you have any to add?
    Last edited by MossackFonseca; December 29th, 2016 at 07:10 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by daddylindo View Post
    But this new implementation would negate that. And it would ultimately lead to almost exact number of town halls on each side.
    Seems like you're under the impression that if you just argue harder and 'win', we'll relent and implement your suggestions. But of course this is a player forum full of people without the power to make any changes to the game. SC has made a bunch of commenters into volunteer moderators, so that they don't have to waste any of their own time in the forums arguing over bad ideas.

    What we do have the power to do, is implement OP's suggestions in our own clans, by ourselves. Small th range, nothing lopsided, nothing below th8 and engineering becomes vanishingly rare.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by daddylindo View Post
    But this new implementation would negate that. And it would ultimately lead to almost exact number of town halls on each side.
    I think supercell can create parity or strategically leaning walls simply by using the matchmaker, without the restrictions on freedom, allthough I concede that the answer to your likely follow up question of - well then why dont they, lies in somewhat murky water. Possibly they do create the type of wars they want, possibly they are not sure how, allthough they seam to be on the right track. At least in the right direction.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikingchief View Post
    I think supercell can create parity or strategically leaning walls simply by using the matchmaker, without the restrictions on freedom, allthough I concede that the answer to your likely follow up question of - well then why dont they, lies in somewhat murky water. Possibly they do create the type of wars they want, possibly they are not sure how, allthough they seam to be on the right track. At least in the right direction.
    I keep hearing the 'restriction of freedom' argument. What is the benefit of not defending yourself with bigger defenses? Besides gaining an edge in war?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MossackFonseca View Post
    I'm suprised to see you jump into this thread and trash it. Why not offer up your thoughts on what actually helps/hurts the mm? I think that a lot of people could benefit from a basic understanding of why they keep matching up with engineering clans.

    As far as your accusations of "speculation", the things that I wrote are not just random speculation, they're based upon my personal experience leading or being involved in hundreds of war searches, including back to back wars in 2 very different clans since the most recent mm update. I do not claim to have more knowledge than you on this subject, but mine is certainly on a par with yours at least.

    Regarding jumping on people who complain about unfair wars: the whole point of this thread is to help people to understand WHY they're getting heavily engineered opponents. If the reason is stacking a bunch of th3/4 at the bottom of roster, at least they know why it's happening and can then decide whether to change. If it's b/c Cousin Vinny has a th4 and rest of clan is th9+, then they at least know what the issue is when they allow him to continue in war. If the issue is too many perma .5's, again, they know. If they keep taking 4 hours to find a match, again, it helps to know that the search parameters expand slightly over time, and they can decide if that's perhaps causing bad matchups, or at least contributing to them. And I might change the wording up a bit, but it's important to know that winning a whole bunch gives you a significant war weight penalty, which can often pair you up with highly engineered clans even when your clan is not engineered at all and otherwise follows our recommendations.

    I edited the OP down to things that I considering to be the most important factors in matchmaking. Do you have any to add?
    I think his points were:

    1 there is not that much clashers cab do to avoid engineered clans, at least as far as we know for certain, based on data.
    2 the matchmaker should provide the wars we want, not leave it un to the players to engineer our clans to draw the wars we want

    i dont think he was trashing it for evil intent, he thought that it possibly to his knowledge container incorrect or speculative information, and he thought it was important he let that be known. He was just giving his take.

  8. #18
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    Results from SC about matchmaking changes from the general player base.


    Level: 234 TH11 |max walls | GG 2B
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by daddylindo View Post
    I keep hearing the 'restriction of freedom' argument. What is the benefit of not defending yourself with bigger defenses? Besides gaining an edge in war?
    No its 100% to gain and edge in war. Like upgrading heroes and troops, upgrading certain defences, staying a long time at a townhall. People like to customise their toys to try gain an advantage in a strategic war game. Supercells roll is to regulate that advantage to the correct levels and to the correct direction. If i want to gem my heroes for war advantage, or spend hours farming them, then i should have the option. Strategy is part of the game. Having said that supercell must ensure thats clans do not get more than a very moderate advantage, and shortcuts should not create an advantage, only effort or gems.
    Last edited by Vikingchief; December 29th, 2016 at 07:12 PM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vikingchief View Post
    I think his points were:

    1 there is not that much clashers cab do to avoid engineered clans, at least as far as we know for certain, based on data.
    2 the matchmaker should provide the wars we want, not leave it un to the players to engineer our clans to draw the wars we want

    i dont think he was trashing it for evil intent, he thought that it possibly to his knowledge container incorrect or speculative information, and he thought it was important he let that be known. He was just giving his take.
    You know how involved I am in this game, and I know how involved you are, too. Do you think that my thoughts are just idle speculation?

    I pm'd nerfedname and asked him to relook at the updated OP, I'm hoping that he will come in and offer some of his own thoughts on the subject. This topic comes up so often that it would be nice to give as much good information on the subject for non-engineers as possible I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikingchief View Post
    I think supercell can create parity or strategically leaning walls simply by using the matchmaker, without the restrictions on freedom, allthough I concede that the answer to your likely follow up question of - well then why dont they, lies in somewhat murky water. Possibly they do create the type of wars they want, possibly they are not sure how, allthough they seam to be on the right track. At least in the right direction.
    The issue for SC is that they don't need to cater to "serious" war clans anymore. Many of the most serious are looking into CWL. The casuals, which is certainly the vast majority of the playerbase, either don't care or so-rarely run into hardcore engineered clans that they just write it off to a bad war and move on to the next one. So, any sort of fix for lopsided war clan rosters has to take into account that the majority of clans ou there pay no attention to the specifics of matchmaking at all, they just want to go fight and, hopefully, win.

    I still think that nerfedname had the best suggestion by far for updating the war mm algorithm a few months ago with his progressive weight tax as offense and defense get further out of alignment, in large part because that wouldn't unduly punish true rushers. And a bonus is that it would take so long for engineers to wise up to it that by the time they build the bases for it SC would be on to the next patch and could make enough tweaks to keep the engineers on the back foot. Perhaps they've done this, but, if so, then there could be other issues with fine-tuning the acceptable levels out of balance for war matches.
    Last edited by MossackFonseca; December 29th, 2016 at 08:02 PM.

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