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  Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.   Thread: A long post about Playing to Win

  1. #1
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    A long post about Playing to Win

    First of all, this is a copy paste from of an article found here: http://sirlingames.squarespace.com/a...in-part-1.html feel free to read it on the original site.
    Anyways, regarding the engineering discussions and all the hate/crying it see I think this is a quite good article to read.

    Tl;DR version
    If you complain about engineering you are a scrub, to know why you are a scrub you have to read the full article. However, its fine to complain about the matchmaker algorithm. Don't blame the gamers, blame the game mechanics.
    Tl;DR .end.

    Playing to Win, Part 1
    Playing to win is the most important and most widely misunderstood concept in all of competitive games. The sad irony is that those who do not already understand the implications I'm about to spell out will probably not believe them to be true at all. In fact, if I were to send this article back in time to my earlier self, even I would not believe it. Apparently, these concepts are something one must come to learn through experience, though I hope at least some of you will take my word for it.


    Introducing...the Scrub
    In the world of Street Fighter competition, there is a word for players who aren't good: "scrub." Everyone begins as a scrub---it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you're doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.

    The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations "cheap." So-called "cheapness" is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn't attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design--it's meant to be there--yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

    You're not going to see a classic scrub throw his opponent 5 times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize his chances of winning? Here we've encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you...that's cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that's cheap, too. We've covered that one. If you sit in block for 50 seconds doing no moves, that's cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.

    Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.

    A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)

    Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

    Let's return to the group of scrubs. They don't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun." Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn't nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent's mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.

    Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they've either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

    The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about "skill" and how he has skill whereas other players--very much including the ones who beat him flat out--do not have skill. The confusion here is what "skill" actually is. In Street Fighter, scrubs often cling to combos as a measure of skill. A combo is sequence of moves that are unblockable if the first move hits. Combos can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take "skill," according to the scrub. The "dragon punch" or "uppercut" in Street Fighter is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any scrub and they will tell you that a dragon punch is a "skill move." Just last week I played a scrub who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with "no skill moves" while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him 5 times in a row asking, "is that all you know how to do? throw?" I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, "Play to win, not to do ˜difficult moves.'" This was a big moment in that scrub's life. He could either write his losses off and continue living in his mental prison, or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

    I've never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I've also never seen a prize for a player who played "in an innovative way." Many scrubs have strong ties to "innovation." They say "that guy didn't do anything new, so he is no good." Or "person x invented that technique and person y just stole it." Well, person y might be 100 times better than person x, but that doesn't seem to matter. When person y wins the tournament and person x is a forgotten footnote, what will the scrub say? That person y has "no skill" of course.

    If you have read this far, please continue reading at the original site and don't forget to read part 2
    Last edited by dwbRylai; September 13th, 2016 at 08:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Forum Elder RagingKoala's Avatar
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    Thats a lot of words to say I suck at attacking so I skew matches to gain the upper hand.

    I hope arranged wars allow all engineers to face each other and tie with perfect wars as your th11 offenses are wrecking their th9defenses.
    Come see me for seige machines: #28Y8QVG2V
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  3. #3
    Forum All-Star Zelonius's Avatar
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    Haters gonna hate

    Will you take the chief's challenge? yes? go here https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...58#post8823958

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelonius View Post
    Haters gonna hate
    Only a scrub wants so much advantage that they cannot lose

  5. #5
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    Well that was 5 mins of my life I can't get back

  6. #6
    Banned GUTrot's Avatar
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    Scrub maxxers.

  7. #7
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    Time to put some TLC on this forum. Stop hollerin' !


    A scrub is a guy that think he's fine and is
    Also known as a buster (buster, buster)
    Always talkin' about what he wants
    And just sits on his broke ♥♥♥
    So

    No, I don't want your number (no)
    I don't want to give you mine and (no)
    I don't want to meet you nowhere (no)
    Don't want none of your time and

    No, I don't want no scrub
    A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me
    Hanging out the passenger side
    Of his best friend's ride
    Trying to holler at me
    I don't want no scrub
    A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me
    Hanging out the passenger side
    Of his best friend's ride
    Trying to holler at me

    But a scrub is checkin' me but his game is kinda weak
    And I know that he cannot approach me
    'Cause I'm lookin' like class and he's lookin' like trash
    Can't get wit' no deadbeat ♥♥♥
    So (yeah, yeah)

    No, I don't want your number (no)
    I don't want to give you mine and (no)
    I don't want to meet you nowhere (no)
    I don't want none of your time

    No, I don't want no scrub
    A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me
    Hanging out the passenger side
    Of his best friend's ride
    Trying to holler at me
    I don't want no scrub
    A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me
    Hanging out the passenger side
    Of his best friend's ride
    Trying to holler at me

    If you don't have a car and you're walking
    Oh yea son I'm talking to you
    If you live at home wit' your momma
    Oh yes son I'm talking to you (baby)
    If you have a shorty but you don't show love
    Oh yes son I'm talking to you
    Wanna get with me with no money
    Oh no I don't want no (oh)

    no scrub
    (Scrub)(no love)
    (No) no scrub
    (Scrub) no no
    (No) no scrub
    (Scrub) no no no no (no)
    (Scrub) no no

    No, I don't want no scrub
    A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me
    Hanging out the passenger side
    Of his best friend's ride
    Trying to holler at me
    I don't want no scrub
    A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me
    Hanging out the passenger side
    Of his best friend's ride
    Trying to holler at me

    See, if you can't spatially expand my horizons
    Then that leaves you in a class with scrubs never risin'
    I don't find it surprisin' if you don't have the g's
    To please me and bounce from here to the coast of overseas
    So, let me give you somethin' to think about
    Inundate your mind with intentions to turn you out
    Can't forget the focus on the picture in front of me
    You as clear as DVD on digital TV screen
    Satisfy my appetite with something spectacular
    Check your vernacular and then I get back to ya
    With diamond like precision, insatiable is what I envision
    Can't detect acquisition from your friend's expedition
    Mr. Big Willy if you really wanna know
    Ask Chilli, could I be a silly ho
    Not really, T-Boz and all my señoritas
    Is steppin' on your Filas but you don't hear me though

    No, I don't want no scrub
    A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me
    Hanging out the passenger side
    Of his best friend's ride
    Trying to holler at me
    I don't want no scrub
    A scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me
    Hanging out the passenger side
    Of his best friend's ride
    Trying to holler at me

  8. #8
    Forum Champion BbaBaba123's Avatar
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    Oh..... it's THAT thread, I guess I'll sit and watch

  9. #9
    Forum All-Star Zelonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheWarDictator View Post
    Only a scrub wants so much advantage that they cannot lose
    How much advantage is too much advantage for war?

    Will you take the chief's challenge? yes? go here https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...58#post8823958

  10. #10
    Millennial Club Commandoo's Avatar
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    All competitive games you can get 50/50 win or loose... If you win all the time it's boring..

    You are a scrub if all you do is want to win 24/7... Loose alittle and go cry then pick yourself back up and cry some more haha

    edit

    post to to long I fell asleep reading it
    Last edited by Commandoo; September 13th, 2016 at 09:45 PM.
    CO at Tidal Rage. #229JRGC2 #Farming #FWA. Recruitment thread. Check us out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yachi View Post
    Removing TH sniping killed the casuals. I've never seen any multiplayer game survive for long when they kill the population. If modding and botting were dealt with before removal of TH sniping, I'm sure loot would be just as good as now.

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