Page 11 of 14 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 110 of 139

Thread: The Case Against Leveling Heroes

  1. #101
    Centennial Club B3ecup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    165
    Visited Unity clan the other day. (Thanks!)

    Oh boy doesnt it pay off.

    gold farming and de farming has different ways off attack I assume.

    But thanks for the tips!




  2. #102
    Senior Member gentimouton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    218
    Late for the battle, sorry, but:
    - armchair game design is very rarely right.
    - with enough skill, you can say whatever you want with data. Be forewarned, this is what I'm going to do here =)

    I don't mean to be pedantic, but you guys only paid attention to the HP-regen-per-hour curve. Indeed it decreases until level 10ish, and increases later on. Below is the curve we are talking about.



    Now what if we look at the dmg inflicted by the BK per hour? This would basically be 1) the DPS he inflicts while alive, divided by 2) for how long he attacks stuffs, which depends on his max HP and the average DPS he takes from towers. This graph is below, and the dmg per hour is strictly increasing with the BK level for ANY amount of DPS received. FYI, cannon and AT lvl 8 do 48 DPS.



    Not convinced? Well, both HP and DPS (the good parts) improve by 4% per level, whereas the regen time (the only drawback) increases by less than 8% per level. In fact, the HP regen increases by 7% when upgrading from level 1 to 2, by 4% from 9 to 10, by 3% from 19 to 20, and only by 2.3% from 29 to 30, and 0% for 30+. So the higher the hero's level, the less bad the upgrade. Seems to me that upgrading is a good idea =)

    Here is how the DPS, max HP, and HP regen time increase with the levels. Notice that max HP and DPS increase only by 2% for upgrades above level 30, not 4%. Why? I suspect this is to keep the dmg per hour curve (above) reasonable while letting people use their heroes at least every 3h.

    Last edited by gentimouton; August 11th, 2013 at 11:36 PM. Reason: typo
    Join DTP <here>!

  3. #103
    Super Member Hannibal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    959
    Quote Originally Posted by gentimouton View Post
    I don't mean to be pedantic, but you guys only paid attention to the HP-regen-per-hour curve.
    I'll reply here instead of responding to your PM.

    This is a nice contribution. And I agree that my discussion of downtime was incomplete. But the purpose of my post was to encourage people to think about the downsides unrelated to downtime and regeneration. Without reposting the entire thing, I'll highlight the portion about opportunity cost:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
    What people often talk about is the balance between increased hero strength and the increased rest time...

    While most people are aware of the downtime issue, they tend not to consider the opportunity costs of leveling heroes. The opportunity costs have no compensatory “balance” such as the increased strength being balanced by the increased downtime. There are several flavors of opportunity cost:

    1. While heroes are leveled, they are not available for use. Taking a hero from level one to level forty takes something over eight months. That’s eight months during which heroes are unavailable for use which will not be recouped. Ask yourself how certain you are you’ll even be playing CoC eight months from now. Now ask yourself if there’s a chance SC will add additional hero levels, such that maximum hero levels cannot realistically be reached without gemming.
    2. While heroes are leveled, workers are unavailable to level defenses. Defensive progression is slower in bases which level heroes.
    3. When DE is used to level heroes, it is unavailable to produce DE troops. The latest DE troops in particular (golem and witch) are extremely strong. Given the spiraling costs of high level heroes, it doesn’t take long before every available unit of DE is consumed in hero development.
    4. Maximal DE farming is suboptimal for gold and DE farming. This includes trophy ranges, bases, and army loadout. Maximizing one’s DE farm by definition reduces accrual of other resources.
    e: I did edit my OP to reference your post which I think is quite good.
    Last edited by Hannibal; August 12th, 2013 at 12:25 AM.
    With apologies, I don't give out my Gamecenter ID or respond to PM solicitations to do base design critiques.

  4. #104
    Super Member childish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    774
    Quote Originally Posted by bighowie83 View Post
    I don't think I've exmplained enough on my earilier post.
    I attack only with barbs/archers (which takes 23 mins to train, so 3 attacks per hour) and I get attacked once every 2 or 3 days, haven't been even 2-starred yet (while upgrading xbow, archer tower, ad, and heroes at the same time). Like I said, I'm farming and where do you see the inefficiency here? All this plus the 43k/43k/300 loot bonus every time I win is great, you can never go down.
    Quote Originally Posted by bighowie83 View Post
    Regalia, come up to 2400-2600 range to farm.
    It's amazing up here even for a TH10 (as I am), where it takes less than 7~8 next's to find 300k/300k/3k loot.
    Why farm only for DE when you can farm all at the same time?

    Back to the original discussion, up at this trophy range, my DE racks up so fast (due to the loot bonus plus the abundant DE out there) they almost always reach the max of 200k before my heroes are done upgrading. So this gives me the luxury of upgrading DE troops on research AND upgrading either hero at the same time. It's great.
    Howie is right!! 2400-2600 is stacked for abandoned bases with exposed storages/collectors. Been farming there for a little over 10 days now and doing way better than I was in the 1500s. I'm running 160a/60b for exposed collectors and when trophies get closer to 2400 ill use the lightnings on bases with exposed mortars and offset THs for the easy 2 star to climb back up. Definitely harder as a TH9 to maintain trophies but raiding 3x per hour is more than enough to keep you at bay considering how many bases out there have 50% of their buildings outside their walls. Plus it's nice to wake up to a t3 army and test the cup hunting skills with bigger troops. ;p

    ~C.
    IGN: Childish! (Retired Clasher - 10/2013)
    Youtube Channel: LINK HERE
    Clan Elder: Misfits of War (www.MisfitsofWar.com)| Recruitment Thread |
    |TH9 Trophy | TH9 Farming(Testing)|
    | TH8 Hybrid v2.0 | TH8 Farming

  5. #105
    Senior Member gentimouton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    218
    Well, there's nothing new with these points you mention, they're common to the rest of CoC and not really specific to heroes.


    - 8 months of non-available heroes
    It's the same with all defense buildings and with mines. For mines, there's a catchup point mentioned on the wiki. We could do the same thing for the heroes, but it's a bit irrelevant: if I upgrade my BK, how much time does it take me to recoup the X days loss of muscle? This question doesn't make much sense.


    - 8 months of worker spent on heroes instead of defenses
    1) Heroes can also be used in defense. Upgrading your AQ for 4 months = upgrading your defenses for 4 months.
    2) If you assume that higher level heroes make collecting elixir or DE easier, then your heroes actually contribute to the ammo of your xbow and i-tower.
    3) If I spend a builder on my barracks or mines, it's several months not spent on defense buildings.


    - maximum hero levels cannot realistically be reached without gemming
    1) Same with walls.
    2) For many it's about the journey, not the result. The longer the journey the better, as long as it's fun.


    - spending DE on heroes vs on troops
    1) Same as spending gold on walls vs on towers.
    2) If you farm well enough, you have enough DE for your troops AND hero upgrades AND lab upgrades for DE troops. I acknowledge that without gems, an army of 3 golems and 10 witches is not sustainable in terms of DE, but neither is full drags or 5 pekkas in terms of elixir.
    3) Food for thought: at TH8, walls are sinks for gold, heroes are sinks for for DE, but there's no elixir sink. Same with TH9 (the cost of elixir for xbows is just similr to the cost of bombs and traps imo). I don't know about TH10 and the i-tower. I wish there were (useful) sinks for elixir.


    - farming DE and gold and elixir at the same time is harder than just gold or just elixir.
    Yeah, so is "gold + elixir" vs "just gold". As a TH8 at 1700 cups, I can fill my gold and DE storages with mass drags, but it takes time and consumes elixir. I can fill my gold and elixir storages with a BAG army, but I'm risking to lose cups. I could go down to 1300 cups to get gold and elixir quickly, but I would miss on DE. Tradeoffs. The game is well made =)

    Edit: thanks for the link to my post
    Join DTP <here>!

  6. #106
    Super Member Hannibal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    959
    I disagree with this post fairly strongly. I agree that the points I make are not new. You're right. They're not.

    Regarding loss of heroes for eight months while upgrading: No defense takes eight months to upgrade. Upgrade time is off by an order of magnitude relative to defensive upgrades. If there was a defense which took eight months to upgrade, there's a decent chance I would recommend against upgrading it. Defenses do not improve farming efficiency such that upgrading them worsens your farming efficiency. Walls obviously require no build time and as such are easily farmed without provided one wants to invest the time to do it nor do they "vanish" from a base for a week each time they are upgraded.

    Regarding alternate DE uses: It's implausible that most people are generating 3-400k DE per week required to do the mid-upper upgrades plus 500-1k DE troop investment per raid x total number of raids per week.

    Regarding farming methods: Does anyone farm elixir? I've always had more than enough doing my standard farm. Many high level farmers use their elixir as trophy bait to burn it.

    Anyway, the hero acolytes generally can't be reasoned with, nor do I expect to reason with them. I did think your earlier point was a good one although it didn't really contradict my main argument.

    I do agree with your point about it being the journey rather than the destination which counts and made it myself several times in this thread.
    Last edited by Hannibal; August 12th, 2013 at 01:59 AM.
    With apologies, I don't give out my Gamecenter ID or respond to PM solicitations to do base design critiques.

  7. #107
    Pro Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    590
    Nice analysis!
    Quote Originally Posted by gentimouton View Post
    Late for the battle, sorry, but:
    - armchair game design is very rarely right.
    - with enough skill, you can say whatever you want with data. Be forewarned, this is what I'm going to do here =)

    I don't mean to be pedantic, but you guys only paid attention to the HP-regen-per-hour curve. Indeed it decreases until level 10ish, and increases later on. Below is the curve we are talking about.



    Now what if we look at the dmg inflicted by the BK per hour? This would basically be 1) the DPS he inflicts while alive, divided by 2) for how long he attacks stuffs, which depends on his max HP and the average DPS he takes from towers. This graph is below, and the dmg per hour is strictly increasing with the BK level for ANY amount of DPS received. FYI, cannon and AT lvl 8 do 48 DPS.



    Not convinced? Well, both HP and DPS (the good parts) improve by 4% per level, whereas the regen time (the only drawback) increases by less than 8% per level. In fact, the HP regen increases by 7% when upgrading from level 1 to 2, by 4% from 9 to 10, by 3% from 19 to 20, and only by 2.3% from 29 to 30, and 0% for 30+. So the higher the hero's level, the less bad the upgrade. Seems to me that upgrading is a good idea =)

    Here is how the DPS, max HP, and HP regen time increase with the levels. Notice that max HP and DPS increase only by 2% for upgrades above level 30, not 4%. Why? I suspect this is to keep the dmg per hour curve (above) reasonable while letting people use their heroes at least every 3h.


  8. #108
    Forum Veteran UnitySharp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,525
    Well, consider my base to be a real world case for this argument. I haven't used my heroes for about 3 months now. Both are pretty much constantly being upgraded. I have grown accustomed to not using heroes at all for every single battle. I can break most well developed TH 9 & a good number of TH 10 bases without heroes using a 27-min army, sometimes without a rage spell.

    I don't think leveling heroes is tough or lose out much at all, considering that:

    1. I started playing COC from mid Dec.
    2. I farm about 14 hours per day
    3. Both of my heroes are over lv 20 now
    4. I have about 90 lv 9 walls, and 160 lv 8 walls
    5. I don't pay attention elixir, and only a little attention to gold. I usually have elixir maxed, and gold storage full every 2 days.
    6. I have about 2 more months to max everything and heroes for TH 9. My 5 builders pretty much have not slept at all since last Dec.

    Also, farming DE without heroes forces me to get better at raiding, and I can only imagine the raids I will be able to do once my 2 heroes are done upgrading to the max. I think I have benefited greatly in choosing the super hero route, and I am very happy about it
    Last edited by UnitySharp; August 12th, 2013 at 07:51 AM.
    Old Unity member returning to check out Clash Royale

  9. #109
    Senior Member gentimouton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    218
    Quote Originally Posted by UnitySharp View Post
    Well, consider my base to be a real world case for this argument. I haven't used my heroes for about 3 months now. Both are pretty much constantly being upgraded. I have grown accustomed to not using heroes at all for every single battle. I can break most well developed TH 9 & a good number of TH 10 bases without heroes using a 27-min army, sometimes without a rage spell.

    I don't think leveling heroes is tough or lose out much at all, considering that:

    1. I started playing COC from mid Dec.
    2. I farm about 14 hours per day
    3. Both of my heroes are over lv 20 now
    4. I have about 90 lv 9 walls, and 160 lv 8 walls
    5. I don't pay attention elixir, and only a little attention to gold. I usually have elixir maxed, and gold storage full every 2 days.
    6. I have about 2 more months to max everything and heroes for TH 9. My 5 builders pretty much have not slept at all since last Dec.

    Also, farming DE without heroes forces me to get better at raiding, and I can only imagine the raids I will be able to do once my 2 heroes are done upgrading to the max. I think I have benefited greatly in choosing the super hero route, and I am very happy about it
    Farming 14h per day, 100h per week, ... man ... I have the feeling that everything is possible if you farm 100h per week. That amount is what Hannibal could call implausible

    I was wondering how much time i will have to spend looting gold (and eventually DE) per week when i reach th9. The average th9 upgrade costs 600k gold per day, and i have 4 builders, so thats around 10m gold to collect per week to finance my upgrades. Assume (a low) 250k gold per raid, that is 40 raids per week. 2 raids per hour results in 20h per week of farming. With a 5th builder, increase that count to 25h, but lets say you can farm well enough (700k per hour or more) to need only 20h. Spend the extra gold you make on walls, and the ballpark is the same.

    Now if you add 80h per week to collect DE, that's 160 raids focused ONLY on DE, so 1.5k DE or more (i am very conservative here, it is more like 2k in the 2000 cups range). You should be making at least 240k DE per week. And this is not counting the extra DE you loot when farming for gold for 40 raids (20h). So, so far, no problem upgrading both heroes up to lvl 23ish.

    Now if you want to keep upgrading both of your heroes to 30, you gonna need more than 1.5k per raid, or more than 80h per week on DE

    Any DE looting strategy for plausible amounts of time, like 30h total per week spent farming?
    Join DTP <here>!

  10. #110
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    90
    Wouldn't surprise me if you commit suicide couple months from now. You have serious gaming addiction. Go get help!


    Quote Originally Posted by UnitySharp View Post
    Well, consider my base to be a real world case for this argument. I haven't used my heroes for about 3 months now. Both are pretty much constantly being upgraded. I have grown accustomed to not using heroes at all for every single battle. I can break most well developed TH 9 & a good number of TH 10 bases without heroes using a 27-min army, sometimes without a rage spell.

    I don't think leveling heroes is tough or lose out much at all, considering that:

    1. I started playing COC from mid Dec.
    2. I farm about 14 hours per day
    3. Both of my heroes are over lv 20 now
    4. I have about 90 lv 9 walls, and 160 lv 8 walls
    5. I don't pay attention elixir, and only a little attention to gold. I usually have elixir maxed, and gold storage full every 2 days.
    6. I have about 2 more months to max everything and heroes for TH 9. My 5 builders pretty much have not slept at all since last Dec.

    Also, farming DE without heroes forces me to get better at raiding, and I can only imagine the raids I will be able to do once my 2 heroes are done upgrading to the max. I think I have benefited greatly in choosing the super hero route, and I am very happy about it

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •