You and this Army, Clash of Clans Download for Free

*Flame* Suit activated...........

When I first started playing this game...... all the commercials ended with "You and this Army, Clash of Clans, Download for Free". FREE???? Ah why not......

In my mind....it was a free game, if the developers wanted money, they could have just started the game off with a cost.... But being market smart, bring in the customers....... LOTS of THEM MILLIONS OF THEM, and they did such a great job.

Then the "Pay to Win" was available, which... I dont disagree at all, Console Gaming is doing it, PC gaming is doing it, and APP Gaming was one of the first it was a great marketing strategy.

But now........... its changed....... I think its been thrown around the "bait and switch" The Dynamics have changed SO MUCH and the "Pay to Win" is not that any more.....It has Turned into a "Pay to PLAY".

I am but one voice... and an extremely tiny voice, But figured I would throw this avenue of thought out as I have not seen it discussed in this manner,

Clash in my mind, prior to the update WAS balanced for all gamer types in a sense..... The Free players could continue to play, be matched up with similar free players and everyone one is happy.

The Pay to Win players, will be maxed and matched with those types of players

And of course the value players will be matched lower but Gem their way up, the real (Pay to Win) players.


I get the business aspect....... I truly do.... I cant deny that SC is a business..... but you guys did SUCH A GREAT JOB WITH THIS GAME...... why bite the hands that have fed you....And I am talking about the Free players........They are free to you yes... but I feel that the free players have actually helped tremendously with the expansion of the game.


1) Free players tell other people to play.... ITS FREE...(this brings more players and potential gemmers)
2) Free players are savvy and try to find ways to play free without Gemming, Doing so means researching and discussing strategy (More game play discussion, more people talking, the game becomes even more wide spread)
3) YouTubers and Gemmers are making money due to the views of Free Players trying to learn how to become better players......Thus spending money on the Game to level up.
4) Free Players eventually turn to gemmers......But they dont want to be forced....eventually...$4.99 here, $4.99 there....... "If you build it, they will come".....


This Game used to be SOOOOOO Much Fun......... honestly.....now....... not so much.......


From one truly appreciated gamer to SC....... Please dont forget us little guys......


Happy Holidays to you and your Families!

Agree with you. Dident read all the post, but i agree with what i saw.

Why earn just 5 mil a day when you can earn 10?

Enlighten me please, how does this update make it pay to play?

It hasn't changed since the beginning.

"Download for Free and Pay to Progress Faster"

Or..

"Download a F2P, and P2W" for those that think that way 😆

I have not be forced to pay for any upgrades or content in the game. Does TH11 require payment for defenses or something?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by divyank666

Why earn just 5 mil a day when you can earn 10?

---

Ahh......I questions this.........


*random numbers*


20 Million Gamers

Lets say 10% of Gamers are Gemmers

2,000,000 - These guys pay....

That leaves 18,000,000 Free players....

If a substantial drop of these free players leave the game or become inactive because again... lets face it...it has changed from Pay to win, to Pay to Play....

The 2Mill, that pay.... will have less people to farm.... Less groups to War against....The 2mill Gemmers are also a handful of YouTubers and Streamers... They will lose views as no one wants to play as much as they used to.

Its a hurt economy period.... It affects all revenue streams.

I wonder... Does SC want the UPFRONT Money...that you are right... why make 5mill when you can make 10 mill.... But the Game may...take a decline.

Or make 5 mill every year for the rest of their lives....because people hang around.......

Its business Eco...101........ You choose.......which route.......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selina90

If you haven't noticed yet your head is so far down in the sand you probably wouldn't understand it if you got the news..

But i give it a try...

IT'S BECAUSE FARMING IS REMOVED FROM THE GAME !!

---

I raided 80K dark and 5Mil gold in the past few days for king and xbow no problem. Masters 1 has nice loot and decent loot bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CheeEX

1) Free players tell other people to play.... ITS FREE...(this brings more players and potential gemmers)

---

One thing is for sure, I will never recommend this to any of my friends, with this new system and rules.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selina90

If you haven't noticed yet your head is so far down in the sand you probably wouldn't understand it if you got the news..

But i give it a try...

IT'S BECAUSE FARMING IS REMOVED FROM THE GAME !!

---

Again, how was farming removed from the game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RabbitsEverywhere

Enlighten me please, how does this update make it pay to play?

---

In essence..... and I cant imagine you have not read the hundreds of threads out there... But the game dynamic has shifted.... while you can still play free.... in essence its not as fun to play free anymore like it used to be.

The time dedicated to play has increased and the need to "Defend" Yourself even more when you are not online...forces you to upgrade your account...


How you do that is another story........Farm more, play more, or play more.....Its up to you but again the free players.. are being affected none the less.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThatAsianBradah

It hasn't changed since the beginning.

"Download for Free and Pay to Progress Faster"

Or..

"Download a F2P, and P2W" for those that think that way 😆

---

You are right it is STILL FREE, I am not denying that.... As I stated..... The Dynamics have changed

1) Its Free to Play
2) It has a Pay to Win option

With the change though,

Its very hard to be a free player that is casual, and if SC DID NOT WANT FREE PLAYERS They should have filtered us out by charging up front.... Guarantee many would NOT have downloaded the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WastingGems

I have not be forced to pay for any upgrades or content in the game. Does TH11 require payment for defenses or something?

---

You are right NO it has not forced anyone to do anything..... BUT....and this is a HUGE BUT....


What is Clash of Clans, ????? Its a Game? What is a Game.... SOMETHING TO HAVE FUN WITH.....

I am not going to detail what has already been hashed out in many threads as this is not the intent to discuss why....

I am discussing, the upfront reason of playing and how that has all changed now.

As a Free player.... that at one point considered Gemming....but thats completely out of the questions now...... As a game I am NOT having as much fun with it as I was truly before.... Something that took over my life.... With friends and family involved too... Again...Im just saying.... its LOST its SPARK that it had for 2 years of my life

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selina90

If you haven't noticed yet your head is so far down in the sand you probably wouldn't understand it if you got the news..

But i give it a try...

IT'S BECAUSE FARMING IS REMOVED FROM THE GAME !!

---

I'm farming with my gibarch army and I don't have to pay for it.

It sounds like you are the one who needs to remove your head from the sand.

"You and this army"
Army refers to GoWiPe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WastingGems

I raided 80K dark and 5Mil gold in the past few days for king and xbow no problem. Masters 1 has nice loot and decent loot bonus.

---

That use to be 1 day for the gold and maybe 2 for the dark. It should not take a few days to farm 5 mil in gold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RabbitsEverywhere

Again, how was farming removed from the game?

---

It's just someone who thinks TH sniping is farming

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BJanGa

One thing is for sure, I will never recommend this to any of my friends, with this new system and rules.

---

I too would not....and I referred many people (Family and close friends to play) Refer by numbers (Pyramid Scheme) if this gets affected...the whole pyramid comes down...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RabbitsEverywhere

Again, how was farming removed from the game?

---

In essence.... Free and Casual players are removed......... Dont really want to go down this road.


But......


1) I may raid once or twice during the working day
2) I try to raid as much as I can at night


Now saying this....


in a 2 hour time period before I get a shield....

I lose about

$900K Gold
$900K Elixir
$6k DE

By the time I come home and my shield is almost gone and I have to raid......

To build the troops and raid that much PLUS troops cost, Its almost impossible to break even.....Again its been discussed..I am not the only one that sees it...

So in essence What do we have to do?

1) Pay for Shields
2) Pay for stronger Defense
3) Pay for Faster Troop build times
4) Pay for stronger troops



It really has been discussed, I am talking about "Pay to Win" versus "Pay to Play" that is all!

Still progressing nicely, just upgraded queen last night. But I taught her to storage raid, not sniped or rely on dead bases.

The game is very fun for those who enjoy stragety games. Her base holds up well against most attacks (I helped with design) and she atracks 1 or 2 a day.

People are mad because they can't hit dead bases for hours on end and snipe THs for eas loot. Then when done playing sit on all of their loot behind a cheap shield.

I agree the game has changed, but for active players the change has helped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CheeEX

I too would not....and I referred many people (Family and close friends to play) Refer by numbers (Pyramid Scheme) if this gets affected...the whole pyramid comes down...



In essence.... Free and Casual players are removed......... Dont really want to go down this road.


But......


1) I may raid once or twice during the working day
2) I try to raid as much as I can at night


Now saying this....


in a 2 hour time period before I get a shield....

I lose about

$900K Gold
$900K Elixir
$6k DE

By the time I come home and my shield is almost gone and I have to raid......

To build the troops and raid that much PLUS troops cost, Its almost impossible to break even.....Again its been discussed..I am not the only one that sees it...

So in essence What do we have to do?

1) Pay for Shields
2) Pay for stronger Defense
3) Pay for Faster Troop build times
4) Pay for stronger troops



It really has been discussed, I am talking about "Pay to Win" versus "Pay to Play" that is all!

---

Please define how you win in CoC?

If you are losing that much loot you need to redo base. Try a hybrid design with TH close to edge so it takes just enough to get TH but no more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WastingGems

Still progressing nicely, just upgraded queen last night. But I taught her to storage raid, not sniped or rely on dead bases.

The game is very fun for those who enjoy stragety games. Her base holds up well against most attacks (I helped with design) and she atracks 1 or 2 a day.

People are mad because they can't hit dead bases for hours on end and snipe THs for eas loot. Then when done playing sit on all of their loot behind a cheap shield.

I agree the game has changed, but for active players the change has helped.

---

Dont get me wrong.... I understand it all..... But let me say this....

I thought I was a pretty active player.... I thought as I moved from each TH I was doing very well..... But.... with this update it has moved me into another class of player.


What is Considered Active?


I played it alot... I raided a lot.... I played the strategy of the game a lot to..... But the pure dynamics have changed.... Active players is now a 5-10% percentile, this has changed....


In one night.... if Sat there....after resources burning, and timing for troops/spells builds..... Generally takes about 20-30 minutes.... from 8PM between 11pm, that is 6 attacks if I stay on my phone....

If I have $3+mill in all more resources and $30kDE,

losing $1mill, Gold/Elx and $6k DE in a 2 hour time frame before shield...

The math doesnt add up still


6 attacks with a $100K army build..... Netting an average $200k resource per attack X that by 6 attacks..... We are only looking at $1.2Mill net gains.... So only gaining about $200k in total net cost after 3 hours of dedicated waiting and attacking.

Casual player at best now..... You cant upgrade something as basic as a wall on $200k........ LOL....


So active player??? I dont know what an active player is any more.....

you have never played a pay to play game.

Everyone on here constantly flaming SC, it is very annoying at this point.

I have played this game FOR FREE, for 3 years now.
I am finishing of my royals on a th11 base that had nothing left to max at th10 but walls.

Pre update I could, and can continue to build post update any possible building or attack that any paying payer can build, or for that matter that even exists in the game.
Paying players can not BUY anything in game that gives them an advantage over me or any other player, other than the time or effort it takes to create what is already available to everyone else in game.

This is why I played Clash to being with. It simply had the fairest gaming model of all the other mobile games I looked at. You can't buy anything in the game that anyone else can't get, you could not multi account and flood a base with resources, and you didn't get any kind of special advantage for being a paying player or a top player. The playing field was, is and remains completely flat.

As someone who intended all along to be a free play player, I can tell you, this is not a pay to play game. As a matter of fact, it is painfully obvious, that keeping a fair and level playing field between all players, is a fundamental point of SC vision of clash. You would have to be blind not to see that they have purposefully gone out of their way to make it that way. It is why this game will remain a good game even after all the complainers leave this game. It is why those of us who have played it long enough know they will fix the small problems that remain. What would be nice, is instead of seeing constant complaining on these forums is to see people realize that a lot of people have played this game for free for a long time, and continue to do so in a way that they are on an even playing field. None of that is greedy!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kozmo91

That use to be 1 day for the gold and maybe 2 for the dark. It should not take a few days to farm 5 mil in gold.

---

My time is very limited for games.
If I was a hardcore player I am sure I could do it in a day or 2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CheeEX

I too would not....and I referred many people (Family and close friends to play) Refer by numbers (Pyramid Scheme) if this gets affected...the whole pyramid comes down...



In essence.... Free and Casual players are removed......... Dont really want to go down this road.


But......


1) I may raid once or twice during the working day
2) I try to raid as much as I can at night


Now saying this....


in a 2 hour time period before I get a shield....

I lose about

$900K Gold
$900K Elixir
$6k DE

By the time I come home and my shield is almost gone and I have to raid......

To build the troops and raid that much PLUS troops cost, Its almost impossible to break even.....Again its been discussed..I am not the only one that sees it...

So in essence What do we have to do?

1) Pay for Shields
2) Pay for stronger Defense
3) Pay for Faster Troop build times
4) Pay for stronger troops



It really has been discussed, I am talking about "Pay to Win" versus "Pay to Play" that is all!

---

I bolded where I wanted to talk about about. Why exactly are you losing that much within 2 hours?

That tells me a couple things: Your base is made to protect the TH and NOT protect your loot and that your base doesn't give you a shield as well. You must have a base that is easily GiBarchable and it's easy to penetrate to the core to grab the DE within and maybe even the TH without getting 30% destruction.

In otherwords, you must have a premmie base down in low leagues but with decent attack troops.

Are you a TH8/TH9 as well? That may also be why TH9/10s hunt you down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RabbitsEverywhere

Again, how was farming removed from the game?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tickler

It's just someone who thinks TH sniping is farming

---

Supercell CS was sending responses that stated "we have removed farming from the game" to people who complained about the update changes. They then went on to describe th sniping.

So you guys are criticizing Selina and making like he/she is clueless, but in reality it's SC you should be questioning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WastingGems

Please define how you win in CoC?

If you are losing that much loot you need to redo base. Try a hybrid design with TH close to edge so it takes just enough to get TH but no more.

---

Great question actually...I am not sure any more... But....


1) I have tried many different base layouts.... but lets be honest... there is no perfect base.... but the trick is to protect your resources as best as you can including NOW the TH due to TH sniping, and wait for the 1 guy that will decimate your base to actually give you a shield.
2) Hybrid Designs are not optimal again due to the TH sniping and the loot in the TH...its substantial now.


Ok back to your questions, How to win?

well my assumption is to build up your base as STRONG as possible and get to the highest league as possible?

The only way to build your base is by resources?

The only way to get resources is to Raid it or Buy it. (NO OTHER OPTION THAT I AM AWARE OF)

If Raiding does not NET you enough.... then guess what the only way to "Win" (progress) is to BUY resources or buy the upgrades. (NO OTHER OPTION)


So if Raiding/Farming as been Nerfed... well guess what.... "Pay to play" Is the only viable option left am I correct?

6 attacks with a $100K army build..... Netting an average $200k resource per attack X that by 6 attacks..... We are only looking at $1.2Mill net gains.... So only gaining about $200k in total net cost after 3 hours of dedicated waiting and attacking.

Casual player at best now..... You cant upgrade something as basic as a wall on $200k........ LOL....

200K net per attack seems low. On my account I don't attack unless at lease 300k with loot bonus that is over 400K total, so around 300 net. Try moving up to masters if you arent finding good loot.

Wife's account is only TH9 and she doesn't attack unless over 300k.

I really do not understand the struggle people are having. And would be more than happy to let them in my clan to copy some hybrid base designs and watch raids.

Before I helped my mother fix her base she was bleeding resources, now they just get to TH and and army redirects around loot (due to stragetically placed lvl 2 walls, rest of her walls are skulls and legos)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThatAsianBradah

I bolded where I wanted to talk about about. Why exactly are you losing that much within 2 hours?

That tells me a couple things: Your base is made to protect the TH and NOT protect your loot and that your base doesn't give you a shield as well. You must have a base that is easily GiBarchable and it's easy to penetrate to the core to grab the DE within and maybe even the TH without getting 30% destruction.

In otherwords, you must have a premmie base down in low leagues but with decent attack troops.

Are you a TH8/TH9 as well? That may also be why TH9/10s hunt you down.

---

WHY am I losing it, Not sure...... Quick info

I am a TH9.... I was maxed TH8 prior to the updated and Uped TH about 2 months prior too the update.

So I was a weak TH9 coming in... upgrading as I go again. a Casual Free player... (thought I was pretty active)


Anyways... Tried all kinds of base layouts... and again as stated in my previous post, there is NO perfect base to defend with, but you try your best to defend the resources until someone actually turns your shield on.

Based on my base.......and the many options I tried..... No one raided enough to active my Shield.....thats the only answer...Its not like my base is weak...but some how they got my resources but not enough for shield...rinse and repeat....


yes again TH9 getting hammered by TH9 maxed and TH10's.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WastingGems

6 attacks with a $100K army build..... Netting an average $200k resource per attack X that by 6 attacks..... We are only looking at $1.2Mill net gains.... So only gaining about $200k in total net cost after 3 hours of dedicated waiting and attacking.

Casual player at best now..... You cant upgrade something as basic as a wall on $200k........ LOL....

200K net per attack seems low. On my account I don't attack unless at lease 300k with loot bonus that is over 400K total, so around 300 net. Try moving up to masters if you arent finding good loot.

Wife's account is only TH9 and she doesn't attack unless over 300k.

I really do not understand the struggle people are having. And would be more than happy to let them in my clan to copy some hybrid base designs and watch raids.

Before I helped my mother fix her base she was bleeding resources, now they just get to TH and and army redirects around loot (due to stragetically placed lvl 2 walls, rest of her walls are skulls and legos)

---

THIS ^^^^ is my concern.

I trophy dropped earlier due to the poundings I was getting in Crystal. So now in silver..... I wonder if the league bonus is worth the move up to a higher league and maybe the attacks that hit me will be truly strong enough to activate my shield.


But again.... though... time invested to move up ranks too...is difficult now....... But yes I will admit I trophy dropped to avoid the hammering...but its back .....and I am assuming its back no matter what League I am placed in???




As for learning... Dont get me wrong I am no Clash Pro... But I think the knowledge I have gained (Streamers..... google....forums) is quite more than the norm of clash players..

Our Clan has 150+ War wins as is..... while its not a passive brag...we are pretty active...... but now... Winning wars are becoming almost impossible as we are getting matched with Gem gamers.....in addition to the troop donations and the war attacks, if you lose you do not NET anything close enough to get a refund.... even winning lets face it after all the troop donations and attacks... the netting is not as much... At best I get about $900k resources $3K DE....I think I easily spend that on attacks and donation alone........

(Ex. Last war we did a 10 Vs 10, our 10th is a TH6, matched with a TH10, only had 1 inferno tower and 1 cannon, but their Clan Castle, Troops/Spells Barracks maxed... our #3 Got 3 starred by their 10.... LOL)......


Please tell me how balancing works with you Gem a TH10 (While I think this is genius for war) You know you will get 3 starred anyways... But have your Bottom TH maxed troops to be able to 3 star your #3 That is a Joke and I dont think that is the norm way of playing this game.....(yes I am crying about it a little)


Any ways.... plain and simple..... You said it... the dynamics have changed but for the active gamers... its great.... but many of us have been alienated....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CheeEX

Great question actually...I am not sure any more... But....


1) I have tried many different base layouts.... but lets be honest... there is no perfect base.... but the trick is to protect your resources as best as you can including NOW the TH due to TH sniping, and wait for the 1 guy that will decimate your base to actually give you a shield.
2) Hybrid Designs are not optimal again due to the TH sniping and the loot in the TH...its substantial now.


Ok back to your questions, How to win?

well my assumption is to build up your base as STRONG as possible and get to the highest league as possible?

The only way to build your base is by resources?

The only way to get resources is to Raid it or Buy it. (NO OTHER OPTION THAT I AM AWARE OF)

If Raiding does not NET you enough.... then guess what the only way to "Win" (progress) is to BUY resources or buy the upgrades. (NO OTHER OPTION)


So if Raiding/Farming as been Nerfed... well guess what.... "Pay to play" Is the only viable option left am I correct?

---

We are a war clan and consider winning by 3 starring TH10s. I will think about multifaceted attacks for hours and figure out the best method to take it down.

I have never really been concerned with maxing my base as I a gamer I realized the proverbial carrot can never be had. (Unless you live online or pay). So I log on, collect resources donate some troops chat with family and if army is made and baby is asleep (and wife not yelling) I do a raid. Nice thing about update is if I can't find a good base I don't lose my shield when baby needs attention. I drop the phone and go to her. Old days I would break shield, need to go do something and come back to a busted base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WastingGems

We are a war clan and consider winning by 3 starring TH10s. I will think about multifaceted attacks for hours and figure out the best method to take it down.

I have never really been concerned with maxing my base as I a gamer I realized the proverbial carrot can never be had. (Unless you live online or pay). So I log on, collect resources donate some troops chat with family and if army is made and baby is asleep (and wife not yelling) I do a raid. Nice thing about update is if I can't find a good base I don't lose my shield when baby needs attention. I drop the phone and go to her. Old days I would break shield, need to go do something and come back to a busted base.

---

We are a war clan too.... again..... 150+ wins..... I will say at one point when Clan Wars started, our War log was all green with 1 red .....Im talking 20+wins consecutively.

Now its the opposite... and we ARE active all attacks used....using a secondary chat system to discuss attack strategies etc..... We have more RED lines than Green Lines now.


As a war clan.... we too focus on troop strength and focus on Uping King & Queen and Dbarracks etc to get the strongest attacks... but again... our TH6 gets matched with a TH10 and he wrecks our #3.......... Does that make sense.....

PS in that game.... their #10, #9 and #7, with all 2 attacks took out 9 of our bases for 29 stars...... The top guys didnt have to do anything.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CheeEX

We are a war clan too.... again..... 150+ wins..... I will say at one point when Clan Wars started, our War log was all green with 1 red .....Im talking 20+wins consecutively.

Now its the opposite... and we ARE active all attacks used....using a secondary chat system to discuss attack strategies etc..... We have more RED lines than Green Lines now.


As a war clan.... we too focus on troop strength and focus on Uping King & Queen and Dbarracks etc to get the strongest attacks... but again... our TH6 gets matched with a TH10 and he wrecks our #3.......... Does that make sense.....

PS in that game.... their #10, #9 and #7, with all 2 attacks took out 9 of our bases for 29 stars...... The top guys didnt have to do anything.....

---

We win on average 8 out of 10 wars. Only won 1 out of 4 lately. Match ups were terrible, I told clan to attack for practice if wanted or just save resources and not do second attack. Odd you are experiencing same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WastingGems

We win on average 8 out of 10 wars. Only won 1 out of 4 lately. Match ups were terrible, I told clan to attack for practice if wanted or just save resources and not do second attack. Odd you are experiencing same.

---

ODD my foot.... Seems like a ploy.....LOL kidding, but what else to do but to force you to gem...............seems convenient...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CheeEX

ODD my foot.... Seems like a ploy.....LOL kidding, but what else to do but to force you to gem...............seems convenient...

---

BUT the thing I like about war is no amount of gems will buy you wins. Most of the time we get far match ups and the best attackers and base design wins.

Sure you could start war and then gem everything but only can do that a few times.

TL;DR. Nobody is forcing you to buy gems. You can still progress at a slower rate, just like always.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JRG18

TL;DR. Nobody is forcing you to buy gems. You can still progress at a slower rate, just like always.

---

Thanks, Discussed and agreed.... but the TL : DR version explains what its almost impossible...... Slower rate.........almost...and I mean almost impossible....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tickler

It's just someone who thinks TH sniping is farming

---

I along with SC will have to disagree. Just put up a tech support question "Why is farming removed from CoC" and SC tech support professional will tell you - they removed farming. You dont have to believe go and ask.
Here's how I found out from my clan leader - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWsoJxyXIAAfiUQ.jpg:large

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BJanGa

One thing is for sure, I will never recommend this to any of my friends, with this new system and rules.

---

Myself included... I have brought all my friends on board this game... Now no one seems interested any more... Most just gave up, some opt out of war hoping for a change in the future... Only time will tell. Looking for alternatives for my time and found plenty.