Impacts of the Updates on TH9 War Base Building Defense vs Offense War Balance

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Originally Posted by akiyume

Offense
+1 for Intro of Poison Spell
Clan Castle troops used to be a +1 advantage for defense, but with the invention of Poison spell, though there is a major shift for offense advantage.
+1 for 30 army space: before you needed to use 25-30 spaces for luring, now you get all of that back since you no longer need to lure
+1 for extra spell space: Before you needed to either use lure or a lightning. Now with poison as an extra spell, you've freed up that other wise tight spell space.

This +3 advantage for offense, and -0.5 for defense, putting a +3.5 advantage for offense is the reason why Poison Spell is so OP and tips the favour really much for offense, and reason I feel like is too much power for poison.

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Haven't finished reading yet, but I had to stop and comment on this. It seems like you're doing alot of double counting here for the poison spell. The only effect of the poison spell is that is takes less troops or spells to take them out. You still have to take them out, but your description seems to imply that you somehow get 30 extra troop space and 1 extra spell, plus an extra +1 advantage on offense and -0.5 advantage on defense.

IMO, just giving a +1 for the poison spell on offense or -1 on defense is adequate.

On defense, you also seem to be mixing advantages from game changes and advantages from strategy, which seems to me to be 2 different things.

Finished reading. Interesting summary, although I very much disagree with your weighting of the poison spell.

Overall I would say that certainly the freeze spell and extra 30 seconds will make 3 starring TH9s easier, but I think it's more of a good thing than bad.

I'm not part of the "elite war community", so I can't comment on that, other than to say that unless they start 3 starring most/all TH9s on the first attack I don't see the changes as being OP even for them. As for the general, more casual war community, I think it could be a positive.

I think one thing that holds many TH9s back from "3 star attack strategies" is the dreaded "98% 1 star", which can easily happen with loons or hogs if you're not careful. This should help with that and might pull more players out of the GoWi* comfort zone.

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Originally Posted by fplant

Haven't finished reading yet, but I had to stop and comment on this. It seems like you're doing alot of double counting here for the poison spell. The only effect of the poison spell is that is takes less troops or spells to take them out. You still have to take them out, but your description seems to imply that you somehow get 30 extra troop space and 1 extra spell, plus an extra +1 advantage on offense and -0.5 advantage on defense.

IMO, just giving a +1 for the poison spell on offense or -1 on defense is adequate.

On defense, you also seem to be mixing advantages from game changes and advantages from strategy, which seems to me to be 2 different things.

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When it comes to poison the effect of it is actually really just more than +2 (+1off, -1 def) since the fact that there used to be the limit for example Lavaloon only had a maximum of 18 loons available on the best occasion, and 2 Rages. While For Queen Killing and CC killing, it's either u take some space out of that 18 loon available spot, or you take a spell which in this case, a Jump spell and a lightning is needed for both the Queen, an AD and the CC killing.

Before Composition: 4 x Lava (3 AD +1 extra), 18 loons and 10 extra space for funnel wiz. Spell 2 Rage, 1 Jump and 1 Lightning.

Now with the invention of Poison spell, that completely flips the table. First, it's an extra newest thing added, NOT a replacement part. Second, it crippled all archers, barbs, minions, anything with low hp in the clan castle. Third, that extra space used for spells is now available.

So with the Composition now: 4xLava,18 loons, 10 extra space for funnel wiz, Spells 3 rage, 1 Jump.

Well, I did count wrong, which I'll revise, but the point being for the fact that with one intro, crippling 1 aspect of defense that worked so well, from aggressive CC Wizards to now Passive Lava hounds/Loons/Golem inside the CC with anything that's wizards or archers will die after almost barely being able to shot once under the poison spell.

So it's a +2.5 advantage for the enemy with just this fact.

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Originally Posted by fplant

Finished reading. Interesting summary, although I very much disagree with your weighting of the poison spell.

Overall I would say that certainly the freeze spell and extra 30 seconds will make 3 starring TH9s easier, but I think it's more of a good thing than bad.

I'm not part of the "elite war community", so I can't comment on that, other than to say that unless they start 3 starring most/all TH9s on the first attack I don't see the changes as being OP even for them. As for the general, more casual war community, I think it could be a positive.

I think one thing that holds many TH9s back from "3 star attack strategies" is the dreaded "98% 1 star", which can easily happen with loons or hogs if you're not careful. This should help with that and might pull more players out of the GoWi* comfort zone.

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Well, I did put more emphasis on poison which I apologize, but CC was a big part of making the enemy think "should I bring an extra spell to deal with the CC? or should I bring 25-30 hogs to lure everything out?", but now with poison spell, as long as you got it and have your Golem enter in to tank, you are free from these two options, as well as this is also a point of instead of 'choosing between two evils' it's now "woot, free CC killing".

For the Elite war community, although the 'Top' ones have assistance to 3 star bases, they usually just 3 star it on the first attack, and definitely on the second attack. Even the FPC clans can take out a base within 3 attacks. For FPC clans, defending against the first attack is considered a good base. Now combine that with the factor of now more added strength for base offense, it's turning a 55%-75% chance of 3 starring (making a random % xD) after delicate scouting, into an easier 65-85% or more chance of 3 starring a base. Building techniques getting more crippled since the fact that compared to building techniques which are only maybe different from each other just 3-4 aspects, the offense which had about over 8-10 options, +2 options (don't need to decide to lure and get to keep the 3rd spell), as well as the fact it's another +1 option for Freeze Spell that counters Tesla Farms for example.

In general though, for the public, I'm not saying the updates are bad in terms for the general masses at all, but Freeze spell isn't going to bring the masses into 3 star hog/loon zone as much as you think. It helps both hoggers but it helps Gowipe clans even more. A gowipe that used to be a frontal attack with some defenses in front of the town hall, now can be frozen pathed straight to it, making 2 star attacks even easier, similar case to Hogging.

I see no problem with th9 becoming "the new th8". They are adding a new TH level after all. I think it is already fairly silly for the second highest TH to be a "sweet spot." But the third? Its time to let go...

However, TH9 still will have an advantage of being 1 level above th8, which is disproportionately elixir rich due to not being able to dump elixir into walls, and relatively easy to take out due to major offensive superiority.

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Originally Posted by Hendu71

I see no problem with th9 becoming "the new th8". They are adding a new TH level after all. I think it is already fairly silly for the second highest TH to be a "sweet spot." But the third? Its time to let go...

However, TH9 still will have an advantage of being 1 level above th8, which is disproportionately elixir rich due to not being able to dump elixir into walls, and relatively easy to take out due to major offensive superiority.

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Yes, there is no problem for TH9 becoming 'the new TH8s' but there is a problem if they don't make TH10 to become the 'Sweet spot' while throwing TH9 under the rug.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the poison spell. This was debated to no end when if first came out, and I'm still convinced that it's not the "easy button" that it was made out to be. Sure it's easier, but you still have to deal with the CC somehow, so it's not free. You're still going to lose troops and/or HP on your golem(s)/heros as you deal with it, so your kill squad has to be larger, or (more likely) you have to bring a heal to heal back the HP lost from the CC.

I don't think there should be any level under th11 where the prevailing wisdom is you should stay there and milk it as long as possible. A lot of people (imo mistakenly but to each their own) go to th10 prematurely because they are enamored by those inferno towers. However, there are very good arguments against doing that.

Now, if the prevailing wisdom is that you should skip th10 prematurely and go straight to th11 (a distinct possibility, but too early to say imho), I'm sure they will address that.