Outside the box way to balance dragons across all TH levels

As we know, dragons are horribly balanced because their stats increase linearly while anti air capabilities of bases increases exponentially. At TH7, 104 lightning is a guaranteed three star, at TH8 dragons are decently balanced, and at TH9 and TH10 dragons are useless and non existent and anyone who trains a dragon to hit a 9 or 10 needs their head examined, especially compared to lavaloon. Instead of just having the stats increase, what if we had the housing space required for dragons decrease as well?

Level 1: 32 spaces
Level 2: 25 spaces
Level 3: 20 spaces
Level 4: 18 spaces
Level 5: 16 spaces

Level 1 dragons might now actually struggle to three star any 7s and level 1 dragons might only be able to 3 star lower 7s (properly balanced), I think level 2 dragons with a skilled attacker would still be able to 3 star upper 7s but there would be a lot more failures, level 3 dragons would be left as is, and now TH9 and TH10 attacks might actually see a use with dragons.

Before we talk about how this would work with the CC, I don't have a solution for that yet. I would say that all donated dragons should count as 20 spaces or they'd be OP in war CCs.

This isn't too bad of an idea. Th10s would get a few more drags, th7 would get less. Good balance.

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Originally Posted by DDRMaster000002

This isn't too bad of an idea. Th10s would get a few more drags, th7 would get less. Good balance.

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My only issue is that Supercell doesn't know how to balance the rest of TH10 like the rest of the game, and makes getting three stars on maxed tens impossible and you're only fighting for two stars rather than going for three like at every other TH level. At TH10, this might break trophy pushing because it might be too easy to two star another 10 with 15 level 5 dragons.. But that's a problem with TH10 that SC needs to figure out on a larger scale.

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Originally Posted by tyler4

My only issue is that Supercell doesn't know how to balance the rest of TH10 like the rest of the game, and makes getting three stars on maxed tens impossible and you're only fighting for two stars rather than going for three like at every other TH level. At TH10, this might break trophy pushing because it might be too easy to two star another 10 with 15 level 5 dragons.. But that's a problem with TH10 that SC needs to figure out on a larger scale.

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Yeah, true.

Dragons are essentially dead after townhall 8 and is dead after mid townhall 8 if you unlock hogs.

Air sweeper+ A good base helps negate drags attacks. No need to implement a dying troop (unless you account for the th9 aq walk + drags

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Originally Posted by DDRMaster000002

Yeah, true.

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Although, this could be remedied by making one type of inferno do 1.5 or double damage to dragons, thus making dragons great for getting one stars on TH10s but extremely difficult to get to the core

Are you a th7? I think you're un-aware of the fact towmhall 9's and 10's don't use drags

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Originally Posted by tyler4

Although, this could be remedied by making one type of inferno do 1.5 or double damage to dragons, thus making dragons great for getting one stars on TH10s but extremely difficult to get to the core

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Great idea. Just hope it's not single target :P

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Originally Posted by Drackos

Are you a th7? I think you're un-aware of the fact towmhall 9's and 10's don't use drags

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I'm a 9, and I'm well aware that dragons are not used by TH9s and TH10s, in fact I find your lack of reading comprehension insulting (hint: if someone says "TH9 and TH10 dragons are useless and non existent and anyone who trains a dragon to hit a 9 or 10 needs their head examined", they know dragons are useless at 9 and 10). That's why I'm proposing a buff that can actually make them usable rather than adding another linear level of stats which didn't bring them close to usable levels, and it's equally obvious that dragons need a HUGE nerf at TH7. This proposal would help balance dragons at all phases of the game and is something all players should be for, unless you want to tell me the way dragons are implemented now isn't beyond broken (way too OP at TH7, unusable at 9 and 10)

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Originally Posted by tyler4

I'm a 9, and I'm well aware that dragons are not used by TH9s and TH10s. That's why I'm proposing a buff that can actually make them usable rather than adding another linear level of stats which didn't bring them close to usable levels, and it's equally obvious that dragons need a HUGE nerf at TH7. This proposal would help balance dragons at all phases of the game and is something all players should be for, unless you want to tell me the way dragons are implemented now isn't beyond broken (way too OP at TH7, unusable at 9 and 10)

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I'm a 9 as well. I've stopped using drags exept if i need to attack a th8 in war, or donate. Th7 drag attacks are way too op, basically a guarenteed 3 star. Huge nerf needed.

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Originally Posted by DDRMaster000002

I'm a 9 as well. I've stopped using drags exept if i need to attack a th8 in war, or donate. Th7 drag attacks are way too op, basically a guarenteed 3 star. Huge nerf needed.

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Yeah, CC hound+9 dragons+8 death loons+3 lightning+rage from any 9 is an auto 3 star on any 8 unless the 9 messes up badly.

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Originally Posted by tyler4

Yeah, CC hound+9 dragons+8 death loons+3 lightning+rage from any 9 is an auto 3 star on any 8 unless the 9 messes up badly.

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Basically the use of drags for th9's and 10's at this point. That and donating..

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Originally Posted by tyler4

I'm a 9, and I'm well aware that dragons are not used by TH9s and TH10s, in fact I find your lack of reading comprehension insulting (hint: if someone says "TH9 and TH10 dragons are useless and non existent and anyone who trains a dragon to hit a 9 or 10 needs their head examined", they know dragons are useless at 9 and 10). That's why I'm proposing a buff that can actually make them usable rather than adding another linear level of stats which didn't bring them close to usable levels, and it's equally obvious that dragons need a HUGE nerf at TH7. This proposal would help balance dragons at all phases of the game and is something all players should be for, unless you want to tell me the way dragons are implemented now isn't beyond broken (way too OP at TH7, unusable at 9 and 10)

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Oh no I read it. Just rather puzzled why you even want to change them so severly? Okay drags are op at 7. Drop their hp. Doesn't reduce camp space. Units in this game have a specific camp space regardless of level. So by changing them for everyone because of one townhall is stupid. Nope I don't comprehend your idea because it's like changing wall breakers since they destroy walls at any level.

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Originally Posted by Drackos

Oh no I read it. Just rather puzzled why you even want to change them so severly? Okay drags are op at 7. Drop their hp. Doesn't reduce camp space. Units in this game have a specific camp space regardless of level. So by changing them for everyone because of one townhall is stupid. Nope I don't comprehend your idea because it's like changing wall breakers since they destroy walls at any level.

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It's that hard to figure out why I would propose something to fix the most broken troop in the game? It goes from beyond OP to unusable in two TH levels, so I proposed a simple balance fix to make it usable everywhere. And it's actually changing them to make it useful across all four TH levels. Why is that "stupid" other than "It's not what's always been done" when "what's always been done" is broken and stupid. What's stupid is how dragons are implemented.

If you're going to tell me that dragons aren't broken at TH7, TH9, and TH10, please say so now so I can laugh at you. If you have a better proposal, I'm all ears. But don't tell me this idea is a bad idea because it goes against what's always been done.

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Originally Posted by tyler4

It's that hard to figure out why I would propose something to fix the most broken troop in the game? It goes from beyond OP to unusable in two TH levels, so I proposed a simple balance fix to make it usable everywhere. And it's actually changing them to make it useful across all four TH levels. Why is that "stupid" other than "It's not what's always been done" when "what's always been done" is broken and stupid. What's stupid is how dragons are implemented.

If you're going to tell me that dragons aren't broken at TH7, TH9, and TH10, please say so now so I can laugh at you. If you have a better proposal, I'm all ears. But don't tell me this idea is a bad idea because it goes against what's always been done.

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I kind of agree.

The Housing Space is a constant stats that does not change !!

After mid TH8 , Dragons will be extinct ... Just like their Dark Ancestors !!!

Not a bad idea at all imo

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Originally Posted by PokeManiac

The Housing Space is a constant stats that does not change !!

After mid TH8 , Dragons will be extinct ... Just like their Dark Ancestors !!!

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Why does 1 have to be true? And that's my point. Dragons are extinct and useless above mid th8 and way too op at th7. Something has to be done and thus would balance them way more simply than very funky stat increases. The main issue is the number of anti dragon defenses increases so rapidly from one th to the next that fidgeting with their non housing space stats will never lead to dragons being balanced. Why keep constant housing spaces to keep a troop broken when it could be easily fixed this way?

Have you ever considered that this game evolves around the player and not the troops.
As you're growing in the game and get more experienced you are being forced to leave the trusted enviroment of dragon attacks and look for new way to attack your opponant. This discussion is all about the way dragons evolve when you level-up but imo this game issn't about what troops are balanced and not, it's about how you as a player anticipate on what is viable and not. if you're a TH9/10 dragons are no longer the way to go because your arsinal of troops have doubled and the variety of powerfull troops combinations are there to explore.

everyone in this game is constantly looking for something solid, something they can apply on every player, every base, every CW. People are asking for weaker Golems, more powerfull Pekka's, more powerfull dragons, weaker hounds, changed AI, more troops, less this, more that. I understand it's in the human nature to look for a routine, something to apply on every situation. But this game issn't just that simple, and will require you to adapt, improvise, and try new things. If you're still wishing you could go back to the dragon days of your game experience you're clearly looking for the solid attack you we're able to use when you were TH7. But those attacks were ment to be a free-bee 3 star as you we're fairly new to the game and had to be introduced with the battling system of the game.

Ofcourse all this above is my opinion, and not the common point of view.
But i think dragons, and most other troops are spot on as they are right now. I like the fact that when something changes in the game, something gets buffed, a new building or troop gets added, or something gets nerfed we are being forced to adapt and change our style of playing and farming. It kinda separates the men from the boys, and takes an effort to get on the top.

edit: did no grammer/spell check, wrote this while stuffing my face with a sandwich so don't mind any mistakes =P

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Originally Posted by HungryHungryHippo

Have you ever considered that this game evolves around the player and not the troops.
As you're growing in the game and get more experienced you are being forced to leave the trusted enviroment of dragon attacks and look for new way to attack your opponant. This discussion is all about the way dragons evolve when you level-up but imo this game issn't about what troops are balanced and not, it's about how you as a player anticipate on what is viable and not. if you're a TH9/10 dragons are no longer the way to go because your arsinal of troops have doubled and the variety of powerfull troops combinations are there to explore.

everyone in this game is constantly looking for something solid, something they can apply on every player, every base, every CW. People are asking for weaker Golems, more powerfull Pekka's, more powerfull dragons, weaker hounds, changed AI, more troops, less this, more that. I understand it's in the human nature to look for a routine, something to apply on every situation. But this game issn't just that simple, and will require you to adapt, improvise, and try new things. If you're still wishing you could go back to the dragon days of your game experience you're clearly looking for the solid attack you we're able to use when you were TH7. But those attacks were ment to be a free-bee 3 star as you we're fairly new to the game and had to be introduced with the battling system of the game.

Ofcourse all this above is my opinion, and not the common point of view.
But i think dragons, and most other troops are spot on as they are right now. I like the fact that when something changes in the game, something gets buffed, a new building or troop gets added, or something gets nerfed we are being forced to adapt and change our style of playing and farming. It kinda separates the men from the boys, and takes an effort to get on the top.

edit: did no grammer/spell check, wrote this while stuffing my face with a sandwich so don't mind any mistakes =P

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Why do you think I'm asking to go back towards the days of easy faceroll dragon attacks at TH7? I'm asking for a huge nerf at dragons at TH7! Then I'm asking for them to maybe, potentially, have some form of use at TH9 and TH10 other than for donations.

Your entire post is basically giving SC a pass to do whatever they want and saying we should adapt rather than we should give constructive feedback towards making the game better, because at the end of the day, the reason I play is because the game is balanced. The reason I play is because we can try and come up with new troop combinations other people hadn't thought of. This makes balance more important, not less: when one troop is disproportionately weak or powerful, that's all people run at that level. Dragons are far too strong at TH7 and there is no innovation whatsoever, and if another troop is too strong at another TH level there is nothing to push you to try different techniques. Likewise, if a troop is too weak to be usable, we don't get to use that troop in trying new combinations, something which is seen with dragons at TH9 and TH10. This rebalance idea that could make other troops viable at TH7 and make dragons viable at TH9 and TH10 actually supports your argument that players need to adapt to the troops to develop new combinations, right now however a 9 or 10 tries dragons its going to fail because they're too weak.

How can you honestly tell me that dragons are fine right now? How can you tell me TH7 is balanced, or that dragons are usable in TH9 or TH10 attacks?

And no, dragon attacks at TH7 should not be "meant to be a free three star". How is that good for the game? All it does is stifle people's development.

Don't you think the training cost should be adjusted as well ?

If a TH7 with 200 housing space creates (200/32=) 6 level 1 Dragons, it costs (6x25K=) 150K Elixir. That's expensive for a TH7, and you would have to search quite some bases to find a victim that will turn in a profit...!

Now if a TH10 (with 240 housings space) creates (240/16=) 15 level 5 Dragons, it costs (15x42K=) 630K. That's insane, because the chance of finding (and succesfully raiding) a base that will cover those expenses is very slim... And I haven't even brought the cost of spells into the equation.

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Originally Posted by Freyrix

Don't you think the training cost should be adjusted as well ?

If a TH7 with 200 housing space creates (200/32=) 6 level 1 Dragons, it costs (6x25K=) 150K Elixir. That's expensive for a TH7, and you would have to search quite some bases to find a victim that will turn in a profit...!

Now if a TH10 (with 240 housings space) creates (240/16=) 15 level 5 Dragons, it costs (15x42K=) 630K. That's insane, because the chance of finding (and succesfully raiding) a base that will cover those expenses is very slim... And I haven't even brought the cost of spells into the equation.

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It could be, but as is TH7s are dropping nearly 300-400k per dragon raid so it's already expensive. Dragons are never about being cheap on elixir but about turning elixir into dark elixir. If balanced right, I think dragons could be a two star strategy for TH9s and one star for TH10s, and it could be feasible at the end of a war to turn all that elixir into DE via the loot bonus.

I could agree that a cost and training time adjustment could be in order.

I don't disagree with the intent or the results. But I do think this is a mechanic that should not be introduced lightly or for one troop. I think it might be easier to rebalance HP and DPS than to create a new conditional housing space parameter. If we introduced a new mechanic I'd almost favor the idea of having dragons movement speed and/or attack speed increase as they level up instead. This would also potentially increase their usefulness at higher TH's as well. It's also a little counterintuitive to think that dragons get smaller as they become more powerful.

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Originally Posted by PvtLeeOwned

I don't disagree with the intent or the results. But I do think this is a mechanic that should not be introduced lightly or for one troop. I think it might be easier to rebalance HP and DPS than to create a new conditional housing space parameter. If we introduced a new mechanic I'd almost favor the idea of having dragons movement speed and/or attack speed increase as they level up instead. This would also potentially increase their usefulness at higher TH's as well. It's also a little counterintuitive to think that dragons get smaller as they become more powerful.

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No, it's that they become less hungry or something like that. The reason it has to be this way is because of the evolution of dragon defenses. At TH7 and TH8, the vast majority of the damage done to dragons is from the air defenses, and there is only 2 and then 3 of them. If you can lightning one air defense at TH7, there is nothing to stop the remaining dragons once you deck the other one, and it would have to be a HUGE nerf to their hp or damage to make it somewhat balanced. A much easier way would just be to reduce the numbers of dragons available. TH8 works decently well, but at TH9/TH10, you'd need a much larger swarm of dragons to do anything useful. At TH9+, you may gain a dragon that you can take, but you lose another two two SAMs, then there are now two more xbows, another archer tower, another AD.. look at how much dragon defense increases at TH9, the most sensible way to make them slightly more relevant is to just be able to bring more of them.

For the record, I'm not thinking about what makes sense from a logic standpoint (it's a game, they can say they figured out how to do it however they want), but from a balance standpoint. Given the amount of anti-dragon defenses that increase, the most sensible solution is to vary the amount of dragons given appropriately.

Interesting idea, but I think this would go against the SC game design since housing space has been consistent with all upgrades to troops. The other thing is if you had housing space decrease at higher levels then you would see more lalooners mixing in dragons into their army comp (whilst not a bad thing).

It does bring up the topic of balance when used in conjunction with other troop types and combos like hoggons and super dragoon. Your reasoning the need to change was based on only the use of mass dragons.

But I think the issue you stated earlier was the "incremental increases" to dragon upgrades was an issue. I think if dragon stats HP & DPS were altered a bit so a nerf at level 1 and 2, then a bump (similar to level 6 loons/giants) at level 4 or 5 then you may achieve the same sort of results.

My main reason for only talking about mass dragons is that in my experience none of the other strategies make a lot of sense (other than using hogs to snipe ads then release dragons when it's clear). If they could adjust the stats to make it balanced I'd support that as well, it would need to follow a progression like loons do.

I also wouldn't mind if they did something specific to give them a use with golaloons or something. Maybe something where you'd have reason to bring a dragon or two instead of just the other air troops because hounds tank way better than them, loons dps and kill defenses better than them, and the dps/space ratio of minions compared to dragons (and speed) is off the charts.

How about a new dragon then. a dark elixir dragon? a very powerful dragon that targets specific buildings maybe, introduced from th9.

Most games have a dragon as the ultimate troop

Wow, horrible idea.

Camp space is supposed to be constant regardess of the level.

So a level 2 dragon doesn't fit in a TH7 clan castle, but a level 3 does? If you have access to a level 5 dragon, you get some extra space too.

I am impressed that someone could come up with something like that. This idea is so bad it's funny.

Tyler4, I think your idea is brilliant.

Most of you who disagree, not to be rude, but you seem sadly misled and ignorant. Your only argument are things like "housing space has never changed, why should it change now?" or "Players just need to find a new way of attacking" are completely invalid. The whole game is centered around the player able to choose his/her own path! You can rush, you can only use barch, you can go full out infernos with everything else lv1, you can push without any defences, etc. There's no set way to play the game. The farther into the game you go, the more possibilities are available. Making dragons useless is counterproductive.

As for the "housing space never changes levels before" argument, that can't even be considered an argument. Change is good, and we need change to advance the game.

Obviously SC would have to examine each individual stat, and the cost changed, but I think the whole concept is great.

All that's needed is nerfing (DPS & HP) of level 1 dragons a lot, and of level 2 dragons a little bit.

If done, TH7-8 all dragons will need support from balloons minions hogs etc, as is already a good idea for elixir cost, but would be good for developing attacks more interesting than all dragon.

Mass drags at TH10 are actually balanced. Several high Titans use drags to get an easy 2 star. For th9, Lvl 4 drags are also very strong with a good Attack you can potentially get 2 stars. I don't see a need to reduce housing space.