Changing the pushing system?

Now I am not a max th10 nor a pushing enthusiast.(Not currently. I am a low th9 and the highest I've been to is M1.)

Neverthless, It is common knowledge that the trophy pushing system is broken. With clouds for hours and +1/-50 trophies, pushing seems to be no longer fun.

It needs a person to be online for hours with boosts for nexting and cloud surfing, that seems like a chore rather than entertainment.

So perhaps I like to suggest an idea. (Yes,I do know this is not the ideas section. However that section requires an idea to be presented in proper comprehensive fashion and I dont want to waste a lot of time on it if the idea is not liked/not feasible).

Past reaching titan league, in addition to multiplayer nexting/searching, a possibility of a challenge/bout is issued. Two people in the same league who press the option at the same time matchup. This matchup cannot be nexted. There they attack and defend against each other in return. The resultant trophy gain is added/subtracted. The winners get the loot bonus. Maybe onestarring will give the loser a loss bonus. The same cc troops are used for offense/defense. Maybe be a 4/5 STAR SYSTEM(Tie-breaker with who had more percentage) will highly help in this case. People can build/gem their troops and go again.

The nexting system which will still exist ensures that the person can be demoted and that those in champs can climb up. Also the legend reseter will ensure that the player does not climb forever.

Another idea could be that at the start of a season, all the titans enter a huge knockout league. This could be in addition to the trophy system. There depending on the number of players and which power of 2 cover it all, titans could face each other in successive stages, where one has to attack another in a stipulated time of a couple of days. Stars followed by percentage decides who continues into the next round, till the finals. 3stars and same percentage could be decided by who got it faster. This could happen in another championship map similar to war map. Also maybe the base can only be seen during attack to prevent 3rd party apps use.

Just some ideas that popped in my mind to spice up the endgame when I see max th10s continue complaining about how frustrating pushing is and how many quit. If its sounds feasible& interesting, I will work more on the idea and post it in the ideas subforum in a more comprehensive fashion.

EDIT:
After further thought I arrived at the conclusion that a knockout championship for titan/top players would increase the number of players pushing there. I have posted the entire idea here,

http://forum.supercell.net/showthread.php/804108-Knockout-Championship

Wow, quite the thread you have here :P some really good ideas though, I especially like how two players both searching can attack each other simultaneously.

imo, a) something needs to be done about the 4200+ trophy system. It wasn't designed for 5k trophies and tens of million of players. Time to adjust it... b) I'd rather not go with a quick fix or something too... additive...

i think the biggest problem is the increase in available player pool size, now an easy +/- 800 cups now, without adjusting the trophy offer system. I understand, there aren't many players; maybe 5000. So we need a way to lower player cloud time. They did this a while ago, by increasing the pool size in champ.

However, this now results in trophy differences to be +/- 800, -1/+59. A simple, but likely affective way is to set a cap to trophy loss/gain. Make it a 10-30 match instead of 1-60. This solves the main problems of the now 5000 trophy system.

People pushing will have an increased player pool, maybe a +/- 1000 cup difference. You will be offered at least 10 trophies per match, so if you find someone 3 leagues down, they are at least worth the effort. If you are unfortunate on defense, you will lose -30. That loss matches a motivated player's gain for 4-6 attacks.

Its simple, but deep, system level changes are what's needed to adjust for the now higher trophy amounts and size of player base.

imho

Supercell justifies the current system by showing how the implementation of champions league went down. when they released champ league there were about as many players close to 3200 as there are players close to 5000. they segmented Champs and added Titan to accommodate the number of players they assume will fill in up there over time, and introduced the legend league and tournament to keep the cups from infinitely inflating and leagues being added. Much like when champs was introduced it is a big challenge that not many players are able to attain right now, but they assume much like how champs filled out, they will fill up the higher leagues again, eventually. that's why I don't think we will see any changes to the matchmaking up there. that said the challenge duel thing sounds interesting, just as a separate entity that could merit its own discussion thread.

tl:dr
they want to wait and see it naturally fill out, just like champs did when it was first introduced, thus I do not see any changes coming, but the challenge/duel thing sounds cool on its own

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Originally Posted by kmb08753

imo, a) something needs to be done about the 4200+ trophy system. It wasn't designed for 5k trophies and tens of million of players. Time to adjust it... b) I'd rather not go with a quick fix or something too... additive...

i think the biggest problem is the increase in available player pool size, now an easy +/- 800 cups now, without adjusting the trophy offer system. I understand, there aren't many players; maybe 5000. So we need a way to lower player cloud time. They did this a while ago, by increasing the pool size in champ.

However, this now results in trophy differences to be +/- 800, -1/+59. A simple, but likely affective way is to set a cap to trophy loss/gain. Make it a 10-30 match instead of 1-60. This solves the main problems of the now 5000 trophy system.

People pushing will have an increased player pool, maybe a +/- 1000 cup difference. You will be offered at least 10 trophies per match, so if you find someone 3 leagues down, they are at least worth the effort. If you are unfortunate on defense, you will lose -30. That loss matches a motivated player's gain for 4-6 attacks.

Its simple, but deep, system level changes are what's needed to adjust for the now higher trophy amounts and size of player base.

imho

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I definitely agree that the trophy range needs to be expanded, but not necessary the number of trophies offered. No one should ever be looking at clouds for more than 10 seconds. If there are no people within 800 trophies, then expand it to 1000, or 1500, or 2000. There should always be someone to attack. That said, I am okay with 1 trophy offers. If a person at 5000 trophies is offered an opponent at 3000 trophies, that opponent does not stand a chance. The 5000 trophy person is most likely a fully maxed base with maxed troops and there is nothing the person at 3000 trophies can do to prevent a 3 star attack. If a 3 star attack is only worth 1 trophy however, the attacker will have motivation to simply use a smaller amount of his army to get 1 star and then leave (ideally just a town hall snipe if the lower player was smart enough to have his town hall out). This would enable high level people to have a constant supply of bases to attack (so they can easily get enough trophies in their 6 hour play session to offset any attack to them) and would enable lower level people to be attacked for low amounts of loot (ideally just snipes) at very low trophy losses. Very much a win/win system for everyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmb08753

imo, a) something needs to be done about the 4200+ trophy system. It wasn't designed for 5k trophies and tens of million of players. Time to adjust it... b) I'd rather not go with a quick fix or something too... additive...

i think the biggest problem is the increase in available player pool size, now an easy +/- 800 cups now, without adjusting the trophy offer system. I understand, there aren't many players; maybe 5000. So we need a way to lower player cloud time. They did this a while ago, by increasing the pool size in champ.

However, this now results in trophy differences to be +/- 800, -1/+59. A simple, but likely affective way is to set a cap to trophy loss/gain. Make it a 10-30 match instead of 1-60. This solves the main problems of the now 5000 trophy system.

People pushing will have an increased player pool, maybe a +/- 1000 cup difference. You will be offered at least 10 trophies per match, so if you find someone 3 leagues down, they are at least worth the effort. If you are unfortunate on defense, you will lose -30. That loss matches a motivated player's gain for 4-6 attacks.

Its simple, but deep, system level changes are what's needed to adjust for the now higher trophy amounts and size of player base.

imho

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There's a balancing formula which is the reason they cannot afford to give +10 trophies for someone 1000 trophies down. Then everyone's mean trophy count will increase. Another one of the reasons they remove inactive bases from search. They dont want people pushing off dead bases.

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Originally Posted by kirky74

Supercell justifies the current system by showing how the implementation of champions league went down. when they released champ league there were about as many players close to 3200 as there are players close to 5000. they segmented Champs and added Titan to accommodate the number of players they assume will fill in up there over time, and introduced the legend league and tournament to keep the cups from infinitely inflating and leagues being added. Much like when champs was introduced it is a big challenge that not many players are able to attain right now, but they assume much like how champs filled out, they will fill up the higher leagues again, eventually. that's why I don't think we will see any changes to the matchmaking up there. that said the challenge duel thing sounds interesting, just as a separate entity that could merit its own discussion thread.

tl:dr
they want to wait and see it naturally fill out, just like champs did when it was first introduced, thus I do not see any changes coming, but the challenge/duel thing sounds cool on its own

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Its going to be slow with champs filled with max th10 and literally no farm bases. Most importantly there isnt a gem reward for reaching titans.

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Originally Posted by erethizon

I definitely agree that the trophy range needs to be expanded, but not necessary the number of trophies offered. No one should ever be looking at clouds for more than 10 seconds. If there are no people within 800 trophies, then expand it to 1000, or 1500, or 2000. There should always be someone to attack. That said, I am okay with 1 trophy offers. If a person at 5000 trophies is offered an opponent at 3000 trophies, that opponent does not stand a chance. The 5000 trophy person is most likely a fully maxed base with maxed troops and there is nothing the person at 3000 trophies can do to prevent a 3 star attack. If a 3 star attack is only worth 1 trophy however, the attacker will have motivation to simply use a smaller amount of his army to get 1 star and then leave (ideally just a town hall snipe if the lower player was smart enough to have his town hall out). This would enable high level people to have a constant supply of bases to attack (so they can easily get enough trophies in their 6 hour play session to offset any attack to them) and would enable lower level people to be attacked for low amounts of loot (ideally just snipes) at very low trophy losses. Very much a win/win system for everyone.

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My idea was in the hope that playing at the top level wont have to neccesarily include sitting 6 hrs straight picking bases for 1 trophy who are 2000 trophies down. The top level players should be facing each other to decide who is better. More challlenging, less time consuming and also more interesting.

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Originally Posted by deadmansdreams

Most importantly there isnt a gem reward for reaching titans.

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Yes, I don't understand why they haven't added achievements for getting to Titan and then Legend League.

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Originally Posted by Wizard80

Yes, I don't understand why they haven't added achievements for getting to Titan and then Legend League.

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It hardly seems like forgetfullness on their part. A gem reward will have to be about 4000 gems. At this point of time, it might sound like a deserving amount but SC probably sees a day in the future where even th8s can push to titans with relative ease.
SC make their money from serious clashers, and if someone can make 450+1000+2000+4000=7450 gems just by pushing they have enough for 5 builders and boosts for a very long time. Dont think SC would want that.

Supercell, add the duel or the knockout idea rather than a 3rd blower in the next update. 👍

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Originally Posted by deadmansdreams

There's a balancing formula which is the reason they cannot afford to give +10 trophies for someone 1000 trophies down. Then everyone's mean trophy count will increase. Another one of the reasons they remove inactive bases from search. They dont want people pushing off dead bases.

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Why would it mean everyone's trophy count increases? The attacking player gains 10 trophies the defending player loses 10 trophies. Above 1000 trophies it's a closed system and nothing changes the total number of trophies in the system (apart from legends league which now deletes a tiny number of trophies every month)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deadmansdreams

There's a balancing formula which is the reason they cannot afford to give +10 trophies for someone 1000 trophies down. Then everyone's mean trophy count will increase. Another one of the reasons they remove inactive bases from search. They dont want people pushing off dead bases.

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I have to disagree. With +10 on a 3 star, you are likely to walk away with +3 or +7 on a win. Mean (average) trophy count won't change: cups is still a zero sum game. I get 7 cups, someone loses 7 cups. The mean mathematically stays exactly the same for the population. However, it may shift some cups from champs to titan. Currently, +1 cups is just killing it for anyone that doesn't want to instant gem an army so they can hit enough +1 in a 5.5 hour window to make some net gains before losses on defence.

kmb, BlackHawkBill, and myself are 3 of the top 4 trophy leaderboard on this forum (according to this list). Bill has quit, I am done pushing as in it's current state it is unplayable and boring, and all 3 of us has the same message: fix the cup offered algorithm, moderate the extremes to make pushing playable.

http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...MMUNITY-S-HELP)

PS. I will be #4 on the list after it gets updated.

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Originally Posted by BlackhawkBill

I recently finished maxxing my base and decided to try and climb again....lasted all of a week.....got to 4,510 and started going 35 mins plus between bases and getting offered up as 45+ cup offers on defense. No thanks....Ive deleted the game from my Ipad and phone and am walking away for a few months till this ♥♥♥♥ clears up. So if ya run across an abandoned bases at 4,400....youre welcome lol.

Ill still check forums once in awhile to see if a worthy update is released, but past that....time to find a new game....

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Originally Posted by Johnnysks

I have to disagree. With +10 on a 3 star, you are likely to walk away with +3 or +7 on a win. Mean (average) trophy count won't change: cups is still a zero sum game. I get 7 cups, someone loses 7 cups. The mean mathematically stays exactly the same for the population. However, it may shift some cups from champs to titan. Currently, +1 cups is just killing it for anyone that doesn't want to instant gem an army so they can hit enough +1 in a 5.5 hour window to make some net gains before losses on defence.

kmb, BlackHawkBill, and myself are 3 of the top 4 trophy leaderboard on this forum (according to this list). Bill has quit, I am done pushing as in it's current state it is unplayable and boring, and all 3 of us has the same message: fix the cup offered algorithm, moderate the extremes to make pushing playable.

http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...MMUNITY-S-HELP)

PS. I will be #4 on the list after it gets updated.

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Decided to edit. Didnt know it was a cumulative system after 1000 trophies. If you could hit someone below 1000 trophies for 10 trophies, I'm imagining it will be easier for everyone to gain trophies and people could continously take those trophies and everyone will be having very high trophy counts. I am not sure that is how SC really wanted the game to be played out.

I am beginning to think that trophy pushing might really not end up being the best way to decide the best clasher due to its chore like nature rather than providing entertainment. My post was more along the idea of not choosing the more succesful clasher the one with most time on his hands and luck, and rather give value to skill. I have elaborated my knockout championship idea in the ideas section. Should be fairly easy to implement and a whole lot more fun for the competitive end-game clasher.

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Originally Posted by deadmansdreams

There's a balancing formula which is the reason they cannot afford to give +10 trophies for someone 1000 trophies down. Then everyone's mean trophy count will increase. Another one of the reasons they remove inactive bases from search. They dont want people pushing off dead bases.

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Originally Posted by deadmansdreams

I am afraid it does not work on an addition/subtraction scale. Its a more complex algorithm. When a million more players join the game, the total trophy count does not remain the same. At the beginning players are offered 30 trophies for someone in their own range. And -1 for losing. This decreases as we go up. SC mantains it in such a manner that the average trophy count across the game is same and makes it tougher to decrease/increase the trophies.

I'm sure its a pretty common algorithm. Dont know whats it called.

My post was more along the idea of not choosing the more succesful clasher the one with most time on his hands and luck, and rather give value to skill. I have elaborated my knockout championship idea in the ideas section. Should be fairly easy to implement and a whole lot more fun for the competitive end-game clasher.

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You are talking about trophy creation, which does not happen at champs/titan as clearly no one in champs and titan are offered cups from the beginner players, where trophy creation happens. For all intents and purposes, at champs/titan, cup is a zero sum game, and the averge does not change.

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Originally Posted by Johnnysks

You are talking about trophy creation, which does not happen at champs/titan as clearly no one in champs and titan are offered cups from the beginner players, where trophy creation happens. For all intents and purposes, at champs/titan, cup is a zero sum game, and the averge does not change.

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Yeah sorry. Did some research and decided to edit the post.

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Originally Posted by deadmansdreams

Decided to edit. Didnt know it was a cumulative system after 1000 trophies. If you could hit someone below 1000 trophies for 10 trophies, I'm imagining it will be easier for everyone to gain trophies and people could continously take those trophies and everyone will be having very high trophy counts. I am really not sure that is how SC wanted the game to be played out.

I am beginning to think that trophy pushing might really not end up being the best way to decide the best clasher due to its chore like nature rather than providing entertainment. My post was more along the idea of not choosing the more succesful clasher the one with most time on his hands and luck, and rather give value to skill. I have elaborated my knockout championship idea in the ideas section. Should be fairly easy to implement and a whole lot more fun for the competitive end-game clasher.

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Originally Posted by deadmansdreams

Yeah sorry. Did some research and decided to edit the post.

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No worries.

Instead of +1 offerings, if we had +10 offerings (with a realistic expected gain of +3/+6), yes, it would make the game playable, and people can push. Yes, we will probably have a higher peak, BUT SC has already built in trophy destruction at the top to mitigate this. Since we already have trophy destruction to safe guard a run away league, why not let us have fun and actually play the game instead of keeping us pent up so as not to break the peak too much?

BTW, SC may have monetary reasons not to. Those at the highest of the top has to use lots of gems for shield, boosting, or instant gemming an army to beat the current "gain enough +1 in a 6 hour span to offset losses on defence" game play. This is not game play, this is using gems to beat the system SC put in place ...

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Originally Posted by Johnnysks

No worries.

Instead of +1 offerings, if we had +10 offerings (with a realistic expected gain of +3/+6), yes, it would make the game playable, and people can push. Yes, we will probably have a higher peak, BUT SC has already built in trophy destruction at the top to mitigate this. Since we already have trophy destruction to safe guard a run away league, why not let us have fun and actually play the game instead of keeping us pent up so as not to break the peak too much?

BTW, SC may have monetary reasons not to. Those at the highest of the top has to use lots of gems for shield, boosting, or instant gemming an army to beat the current "gain enough +1 in a 6 hour span to offset losses on defence" game play. This is not game play, this is using gems to beat the system SC put in place ...

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Yeah I guess you could just go on and on with the pushing.

Past a point, trying to make pushing fun might be a lost cause after all. Farming, wars, pushing...maybe we really need something new.

Your ideas are just great, here goes some contribution...

1 on 1 - Each player in the game should receive a strength level according to his level of defense, army and heroes, just like each clan has in clan wars. When you match your opponent in the 1 on 1 the number of trophies you get could vary depending on the gap of strength levels. There should be a range of strength for this 1 on 1 matchmaking. It should not limit titan vs titan, but be based on the strength which would make even easier for a titan I to find an opponent.
In lower level if both player hit 100% the time should be the tiebreak.
It would be very exciting seeing real time in your screen the damage that you opponent is giving to your tower while you are attacking him...

Knockout Contest - It should be available to all leagues.They could make groups of 128 players (which would make each contest take 7 rounds - 1 round per day so each contest would take a week) by the strength level I described above and define rounds, you pass a round you win loot and trophies that are discounted equally from losers. The higher the round you get the higher the trophy and loot.. similar to a poker tournament
Players would have to stay in the league during the contest or it would be an automatic WO with corresponding deduction of trophies and loot.

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Originally Posted by deadmansdreams

Yeah I guess you could just go on and on with the pushing.

Past a point, trying to make pushing fun might be a lost cause after all. Farming, wars, pushing...maybe we really need something new.

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Well, to me pushing is fun as I get to climb the leaderboard both globally and locally. I was #5 in Canada. If the game was playable, I would have pushed to top 3, then chase 1, then maybe chase global top 200 .... so on and on.

But I concur, I do think they can spice things up outside of clan war. CW sometimes attracts the wrong elements and leads to too much drama ....

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Originally Posted by Bosqueto

Your ideas are just great, here goes some contribution...

1 on 1 - Each player in the game should receive a strength level according to his level of defense, army and heroes, just like each clan has in clan wars. When you match your opponent in the 1 on 1 the number of trophies you get could vary depending on the gap of strength levels. There should be a range of strength for this 1 on 1 matchmaking. It should not limit titan vs titan, but be based on the strength which would make even easier for a titan I to find an opponent.
In lower level if both player hit 100% the time should be the tiebreak.
It would be very exciting seeing real time in your screen the damage that you opponent is giving to your tower while you are attacking him...

Knockout Contest - It should be available to all leagues.They could make groups of 128 players (which would make each contest take 7 rounds - 1 round per day so each contest would take a week) by the strength level I described above and define rounds, you pass a round you win loot and trophies that are discounted equally from losers. The higher the round you get the higher the trophy and loot.. similar to a poker tournament
Players would have to stay in the league during the contest or it would be an automatic WO with corresponding deduction of trophies and loot.

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Thanks for the feedback.

I suggested titan only because if it involves max th10, the game doesnt have to bother matching opponents by weighing them. So that trophy exchange can be made by online competing players rather than someone staying online for 6 hrs and picking some bases leagues down and getting a few trophies.

As for the championship idea, I have explained in detail in the ideas section. Best way would be for top 32672 players to match and attack and defend over 15 rounds of play.Obviously a max th10 will win. And this will encourage people to push to the top numbers.