Archer Damage: Declared vs. Observed

A TH8 has 3900HP. And an archer (of level 6) does 22DPSec according to my barrack's info. So, in theory we need 177.27s (3900/22) to destroy a TH8 with an archer, which fits in a 180s attack.

I tried it, however...the attack was lost. I went immediately to the village and checked that the TH still had 116HP. Meaning the archer did 21.02DPS ((3900-116)/180a considerable diference, in my opinion).

Any ideas from where this difference is coming? Also, if time was right and DPS wrong, I wonder if other troops would also have different stats from declared and real damage.

Image proofs:

[1] Here you can see that the archer was sent as the first troop of the attack. Timer is at 3m0s and notice there is the white circle indicating I just touched that spot.

http://i.imgur.com/aPshxha.jpg

[2] Attack lost

http://i.imgur.com/9DPiyYC.jpg

[3] Remaining TH HP

http://i.imgur.com/syf4p7B.jpg

There is a delay from deployment to when she actually starts firing which will is a small anomaly to the data. The rest is probably rounded to 22.

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Originally Posted by vivian265

There is a delay from deployment to when she actually starts firing which will is a small anomaly to the data. The rest is probably rounded to 22.

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Well observed, but their attack speed is 1s, so the delay is probably around that time. Even with a 2 sec delay, it should fit in 180s. Plus, the HP left in the TH corresponds to more than 5s of shooting. I doubt the initial delay would be so big.

What ^ said
p.s why would you only drop one archer? might as well drop 2-3 to be sure.

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Originally Posted by sidyll

Well observed, but their attack speed is 1s, so the delay is probably around that time. Even with a 2 sec delay, it should fit in 180s. Plus, the HP left in the TH corresponds to more than 5s of shooting. I doubt the initial delay would be so big.

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Mhm but assuming the OP's original calculation of the archer's DP being 21.02, after taking to account that extra second, it's fair to round up to 22. SC must have chosen not to put the figure as an underestimated value and giving a decimal value would be inappropriate for such a minute quantity.

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Originally Posted by johnthepan

why would you only drop one archer? might as well drop 2-3 to be sure.

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I understand sir, but this is not what I'm trying to discuss here. I'm bringing a question about a difference of almost -1DPS observed in a troop, not a question of how to snipe a TH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sidyll

A TH8 has 3900HP. And an archer (of level 6) does 22DPSec according to my barrack's info. So, in theory we need 177.27s (3900/22) to destroy a TH8 with an archer, which fits in a 180s attack.

I tried it, however...the attack was lost. I went immediately to the village and checked that the TH still had 116HP. Meaning the archer did 21.02DPS ((3900-116)/180a considerable diference, in my opinion).

Any ideas from where this difference is coming? Also, if time was right and DPS wrong, I wonder if other troops would also have different stats from declared and real damage.

Image proofs:

[1] Here you can see that the archer was sent as the first troop of the attack. Timer is at 3m0s and notice there is the white circle indicating I just touched that spot.



[2] Attack lost



[3] Remaining TH HP

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Could you maybe try on a TH8 which is not currently upgrading? It could be the actual max HP of the building scales towards TH9 as the upgrade progresses? I seriously doubt it but just in case....

Hellooooooooo Supercell :smirk:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shaz1nba

Could you maybe try on a TH8 which is not currently upgrading? It could be the actual max HP of the building scales towards TH9 as the upgrade progresses? I seriously doubt it but just in case....

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I don't think that's the case, the TH hitpoints don't change. Only when the upgrade finishes...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sidyll

A TH8 has 3900HP. And an archer (of level 6) does 22DPSec according to my barrack's info. So, in theory we need 177.27s (3900/22) to destroy a TH8 with an archer, which fits in a 180s attack.

I tried it, however...the attack was lost. I went immediately to the village and checked that the TH still had 116HP. Meaning the archer did 21.02DPS ((3900-116)/180a considerable diference, in my opinion).

Any ideas from where this difference is coming? Also, if time was right and DPS wrong, I wonder if other troops would also have different stats from declared and real damage.

Image proofs:

[1] Here you can see that the archer was sent as the first troop of the attack. Timer is at 3m0s and notice there is the white circle indicating I just touched that spot.

http://i.imgur.com/aPshxha.jpg

[2] Attack lost

http://i.imgur.com/9DPiyYC.jpg

[3] Remaining TH HP

http://i.imgur.com/syf4p7B.jpg

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Hmm... Suspicious... I hope Supercell isn't lying to us about the damage per second of troops.

I want to see some follow up here.

Who cares?

Tiny tiny differences, that are the same for everyone, revealed by a random and fairly daft troop usage.

I don't see any decimals in the game, so a bit of rounding and/or the previous post of animations not being perfectly aligned with the maths behind the scenes does it for me.

'I hope SC isn't lying to us about the dps'.....really. Get over it. If they are, so what? Lied to everyone at the same time or no-one.

why even try? doesnt effect anything really, except that u should never go looking for a snipe with one archer

Just did a test, the OP is right. There does seem to be discrepancy in the stated HP of level 8 townhall or the DPS of level 6 archer or the time keeping.

How I did the test: 1 level 6 archer on an isolated townhall, archer put in shooting distance so no need to walk towards the townhall and first shot was fired about 1 second after archer was on the field. Nothing else was used, so no buildings collapsed and no teslas or traps triggered.

Result: Townhall had health remaining, my TH9 account got 868 gold and elixir from the level 8 townhall. Taking into account the loot penalty, the townhall had about 3.5% of health left.

IMO, it's an interesting chance discovery. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Superfinch30

Who cares?

Tiny tiny differences, that are the same for everyone, revealed by a random and fairly daft troop usage.

I don't see any decimals in the game, so a bit of rounding and/or the previous post of animations not being perfectly aligned with the maths behind the scenes does it for me.

'I hope SC isn't lying to us about the dps'.....really. Get over it. If they are, so what? Lied to everyone at the same time or no-one.

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Just because this isnt important to you doesn't mean its not important to others.

Having accurate information about DPS / HP / etc in a game that revolves around these things are important.

If you don't care, then find something you do care about and participate there.

Try with other single troops and see how fast it's destoyed. Intersting.

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Originally Posted by wiped

Just did a test, the OP is right. There does seem to be discrepancy in the stated HP of level 8 townhall or the DPS of level 6 archer or the time keeping.

How I did the test: 1 level 6 archer on an isolated townhall, archer put in shooting distance so no need to walk towards the townhall and first shot was fired about 1 second after archer was on the field. Nothing else was used, so no buildings collapsed and no teslas or traps triggered.

Result: Townhall had health remaining, my TH9 account got 868 gold and elixir from the level 8 townhall. Taking into account the loot penalty, the townhall had about 3.5% of health left.

IMO, it's an interesting chance discovery. :cool:

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Did this test again in the same way, except I counted the number of shots this time. For the 3 minutes attack period, I counted 172 shots, not the expected 180 shots. The observed results are in line with 22 damage per shot and the stated HP of level 8 townhall. When I was counting the shots, what seemed to be happening was there would be slight delay in firing a shot from time to time, even with nothing else on the field. The stated attack speed of 1 shot per second is not accurate if you look at a longer period of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by krease

Just because this isnt important to you doesn't mean its not important to others.

Having accurate information about DPS / HP / etc in a game that revolves around these things are important.

If you don't care, then find something you do care about and participate there.

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Interesting, yes. Something that affects the game, no.

I have seen some pretty precisely created funnels in my time, but you cannot base the premise of your attack on one archer shot.

If you really went to the trouble to calculate exactly how many hp needed to be cleared from each side, and the exact amount of shots and walking time that entailed.....good for you, and sorry if the attack went awry because of it.

That's what I'm trying to say. It doesn't matter. There is no practical way in which it can matter.

Only people that measure things out in single hits are:

That rare occasion when someone tries to snipe with 1 troop...

Those people that mysteriously have the power to attack the same base repeatedly.....I have indeed seen a funnel created to millisecond accuracy, but, well, more trial and error than perfect hp/dps calculation.

Edit: tl;dr, and thought of better way to surmise.

Can 1 archer shot or the strength of an archer shot affect the battle? Obviously, always.

Can anyone form their attack plan to such a degree as to factor in EXACT stated troop stats (as in the less than 1 that this is, bearing in mind there are no decimals in the game) NO. That's why it doesn't matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Superfinch30

Who cares?

Tiny tiny differences, that are the same for everyone, revealed by a random and fairly daft troop usage.

I don't see any decimals in the game, so a bit of rounding and/or the previous post of animations not being perfectly aligned with the maths behind the scenes does it for me.

'I hope SC isn't lying to us about the dps'.....really. Get over it. If they are, so what? Lied to everyone at the same time or no-one.

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youre right why should we care if builders waste hours of our time and all the troops are off on damage, like it could only affect the three star from archers hitting weaker, maybe they should also make every troop hit weaker than it says just because the numbers and legitimate math shouldnt be used when balancing how much damage troops should be doing just make pekkas and golems do 100 more dps perfect fix right? who needs math anyways

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jarvee

youre right why should we care if builders waste hours of our time and all the troops are off on damage, like it could only affect the three star from archers hitting weaker, maybe they should also make every troop hit weaker than it says just because the numbers and legitimate math shouldnt be used when balancing how much damage troops should be doing just make pekkas and golems do 100 more dps perfect fix right? who needs math anyways

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You do realise you are being ridiculous don't you?

Builder time bug: WRONG. SC have been gently screwing everyone with that forever. No dispute there. Thanks for bringing it up, that's pretty much an auto-thread closed.

This...no. I see you quoted my first post and not the later one, which I feel explains myself far better.

The only thing illegitimate about that dps math is that it should have been rounded DOWN to 21 instead of up to 22. You know....being as there are no decimals here and all.

Those marginal discrepancies WILL always affect the outcome, granted.
In a way that can be predicted, hell no. Be realistic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wiped

Did this test again in the same way, except I counted the number of shots this time. For the 3 minutes attack period, I counted 172 shots, not the expected 180 shots. The observed results are in line with 22 damage per shot and the stated HP of level 8 townhall. When I was counting the shots, what seemed to be happening was there would be slight delay in firing a shot from time to time, even with nothing else on the field. The stated attack speed of 1 shot per second is not accurate if you look at a longer period of time.

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I would guess that the case is in fact that the attack rate of the archer is just slightly over 1 attack per second and the actual figure is rounded to the nearest second. This would also make the DPS of the archer just slightly under 22 but again rounded to the nearest whole number.

http://supercell-forum-content.s3.am...post-right.png
Did this test again in the same way, except I counted the number of shots this time. For the 3 minutes attack period, I counted 172 shots, not the expected 180 shots. The observed results are in line with 22 damage per shot and the stated HP of level 8 townhall. When I was counting the shots, what seemed to be happening was there would be slight delay in firing a shot from time to time, even with nothing else on the field. The stated attack speed of 1 shot per second is not accurate if you look at a longer period of time.

Whether it matters or not, I found this interesting.

Anything that adds to game knowledge has value in my book, irrespective of practical application.

Wow. While i have nothing to contribute in this thread, i have to compliment all you guy's mathematical skills!

This is exactly why i went the medical route, lol.

Well, that's interesting
just like the quake spell
after the third spell, it does almost the same percentage of damage. According to Eternal625 experiments.

Of course it matters. This effect is huge. How many times have you failed a 3 star in cw because of 8 seconds? The big question to me is Is it the same for everybody and we only have 252 attack time or is it hardware based and influenced by fps?
At least rhr damage per hit are not influenced. This would be everworse if buildings dont go down from loons when they should.

BArch nerf? Maybe a comparison with other troops will give better insight.

And whoever is finding this insignificant, please go and post in a thread that seems significant to you! Why bother posting here?

Finch, whilst I agree the descrepency using just 1 archer is almost undetectable, if this is true for nearly all troops this could actually be rather significant - especially for example in all dragon attacks where time is of the essence.

someone needs to try this for other troops, see what the range of errors are.

OP has eagle eye skills! Wondering if you work in quality control or do OSHA inspections.

OP, thanks for the thread. I think your discovery is very interesting. I have found several times in war that I sent some troops in to lure cc and they were killed much faster than I calculated. I wonder if this discrepancy is evident in every troop or it's just with the archers.

I don't think SC has officially commented, but it is believed that troops will "run through their code again" periodically to ensure they are still hitting the correct target. With the Archer, which has a 1 second attack animation, you lose very little time. But watch a Wizard. You lose a lot more. Even more annoying is the AQ when she does it since she does so much damage per shot. You can spot this by watching a replay and seeing the attack animation start, but nothing being fired. Bug ? Coding issue ? Who knows. It is rather significant though if you miltiply times say, 16 wizards.

While I agree with the man saying it doesn't matter because it affects us all and it isn't something that you can measure, predict, and plan for, I would also say that it is fair to always want improvement by game companies. Even in the smallest of things, why not get it right ? Or at least strive to. I mean when a company is making ~5 mil a day, I have pretty high expectations. Since wars were brought up and very few Archers are actually used in war, use the Wizards for a better example. 16 wizards losing 2-3 seconds every so often in a war times their damage is a large amount. Sorry I'm lazy and don't want to do the math, but you get the point.

Come on guys, she was just probably having a rough day. Maybe she was distracted by the thought that she was going to burst into a splash of elixir in the last remaining 3 minutes of her brief little life. I know I would be.

This is so minuscule. Sorry if they decided to round things off for you and make the troop data look much simpler. What are you gonna do now? Sue Supercell?

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Originally Posted by Superfinch30

Who cares?

Tiny tiny differences, that are the same for everyone, revealed by a random and fairly daft troop usage.

I don't see any decimals in the game, so a bit of rounding and/or the previous post of animations not being perfectly aligned with the maths behind the scenes does it for me.

'I hope SC isn't lying to us about the dps'.....really. Get over it. If they are, so what? Lied to everyone at the same time or no-one.

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Wow, its a completely relevant fact and quite important considering how many millions of people use 1 single archer to clean up buildings in war attack after war attack, war after war, translating to extra war stars or not, translating to actual wins or not. It would be even more egregious than that time delay bug.

Who cares? I do, and quite a few others it seems. And then telling everyone to get over it. Wonder if your other 2,600+ posts have been just as luminary.

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Originally Posted by danuwicked

Wow, its a completely relevant fact and quite important considering how many millions of people use 1 single archer to clean up buildings in war attack after war attack, war after war, translating to extra war stars or not, translating to actual wins or not. It would be even more egregious than that time delay bug.

Who cares? I do, and quite a few others it seems. And then telling everyone to get over it. Wonder if your other 2,600+ posts have been just as luminary.

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Your reasoning is ♥♥♥♥. Those "clean up" buildings have much less HP and can easily be destroyed by 1 archer in like 20 seconds. If you lose a war battle at 49% the game shouldn't bail you out; you should become a better attacker.

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Originally Posted by HArth991177

http://supercell-forum-content.s3.am...post-right.png
Did this test again in the same way, except I counted the number of shots this time. For the 3 minutes attack period, I counted 172 shots, not the expected 180 shots. The observed results are in line with 22 damage per shot and the stated HP of level 8 townhall. When I was counting the shots, what seemed to be happening was there would be slight delay in firing a shot from time to time, even with nothing else on the field. The stated attack speed of 1 shot per second is not accurate if you look at a longer period of time.

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AQ sometimes does this too, it may be some recheck of target from older times where troops always got stuck hitting Walls; then the targeting resets.

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Originally Posted by wiped

Did this test again in the same way, except I counted the number of shots this time. For the 3 minutes attack period, I counted 172 shots, not the expected 180 shots. The observed results are in line with 22 damage per shot and the stated HP of level 8 townhall. When I was counting the shots, what seemed to be happening was there would be slight delay in firing a shot from time to time, even with nothing else on the field. The stated attack speed of 1 shot per second is not accurate if you look at a longer period of time.

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makes sense, it's like when troops are running/walking to a builder hut in the corner and sometimes they stop for a second

Interesting find.

I've also noticed when sniping THs with my queen, the health bar decreases very slowly at the very end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by danuwicked

Wow, its a completely relevant fact and quite important considering how many millions of people use 1 single archer to clean up buildings in war attack after war attack, war after war, translating to extra war stars or not, translating to actual wins or not. It would be even more egregious than that time delay bug.

Who cares? I do, and quite a few others it seems. And then telling everyone to get over it. Wonder if your other 2,600+ posts have been just as luminary.

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Youll find plenty of my posts fairly illuminating I hope.

Skip to my other post where I explain myself better.

The example you are giving makes very little sense either.

Yes you may want a lone archer to pick off a building to secure the 2 or 3 star. Yes, according to this, she will get it done in 104% of the time she really should.

My questions to that are:

Have you ever run the clock down unnecessarily before placing that archer, knowing the exact number of hp and thus seconds required to take down that building and secure the win?
I'll answer for you....no. We put them down as soon as it is safe, or it becomes clear it is needed.

Next would be, before this thread, had all, any, or none of your opponents become aware of this discrepancy, and been able to use it to their advantage?

NO! Because that 0.8 dps that is missing (to include targeting and re-targeting/checking, and of course measured over 3 minutes which ONLY has relevance in trying to snipe a TH with 1 troop) cannot be planned for!

Point is, that extra few seconds (over 3 minutes, let's not forget that) is the same for everybody. Not like some peoples archers are firing at a full 22 and others the 21.2.


So, your point to it translating to extra stars and war wins is idiocy. Would it not be a fair assumption that others have failed by less than 4% of time needed in scraping?


I'm not offering that as a complete absolution of the inaccuracy, I'm leaving that to the complete lack of decimals in game.

Point is, again, that there is NO situation (apart from that random and pointless case proven by OP) that this can have a negative effect on your raid, and cause it to fall short of your perfect game plan.

A missing 0.8 dps on a troop that dies instantly from virtually any hit.

Perspective, and common sense are required. You'll find an awful lot of that in my other 2,600 posts.

Lastly via edit, comparing it to the time bug is also ludicrous, and rather helps stop you jumping on my: 'same for everybody' statement.

Upgrade and troop build times are essentially the main currency of this game, apart from direct loot purchase.

While it may be the same for everybody, it is SC effectively stealing back something that they offer at a price.

Stealing back a second of useful archer firing time for every single player at all times, is completely fair in comparison, and effectively hurts no-one because of it.

IMO,
It's not a big deal to round numbers.
.
I think they work with DPH (Damage Per Hit) not the DPS (Damage Per Second).
As you know, troops hit speed is not the same
So, they have to use another unit that's fair for all troops which is the DPS when you convert DPH to DPS, you may get some weird and strange numbers.
This is why they round them.

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Originally Posted by Superfinch30

Youll find plenty of my posts fairly illuminating I hope.

Skip to my other post where I explain myself better.

The example you are giving makes very little sense either.

Yes you may want a lone archer to pick off a building to secure the 2 or 3 star. Yes, according to this, she will get it done in 104% of the time she really should.

My questions to that are:

Have you ever run the clock down unnecessarily before placing that archer, knowing the exact number of hp and thus seconds required to take down that building and secure the win?
I'll answer for you....no. We put them down as soon as it is safe, or it becomes clear it is needed.

Next would be, before this thread, had all, any, or none of your opponents become aware of this discrepancy, and been able to use it to their advantage?

NO! Because that 0.8 dps that is missing (to include targeting and re-targeting/checking, and of course measured over 3 minutes which ONLY has relevance in trying to snipe a TH with 1 troop) cannot be planned for!

Point is, that extra few seconds (over 3 minutes, let's not forget that) is the same for everybody. Not like some peoples archers are firing at a full 22 and others the 21.2.


So, your point to it translating to extra stars and war wins is idiocy. Would it not be a fair assumption that others have failed by less than 4% of time needed in scraping?


I'm not offering that as a complete absolution of the inaccuracy, I'm leaving that to the complete lack of decimals in game.

Point is, again, that there is NO situation (apart from that random and pointless case proven by OP) that this can have a negative effect on your raid, and cause it to fall short of your perfect game plan.

A missing 0.8 dps on a troop that dies instantly from virtually any hit.

Perspective, and common sense are required. You'll find an awful lot of that in my other 2,600 posts.

Lastly via edit, comparing it to the time bug is also ludicrous, and rather helps stop you jumping on my: 'same for everybody' statement.

Upgrade and troop build times are essentially the main currency of this game, apart from direct loot purchase.

While it may be the same for everybody, it is SC effectively stealing back something that they offer at a price.

Stealing back a second of useful archer firing time for every single player at all times, is completely fair in comparison, and effectively hurts no-one because of it.

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I was kind of reserving my opinion till now, since both sides had their points. But this guy has effectively convinced me.

+1, Superfinch.

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Originally Posted by Alisreal

I was kind of reserving my opinion till now, since both sides had their points. But this guy has effectively convinced me.

+1, Superfinch.

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Yay! That is such a rarity. Ty so much. Get the feeling you and I are going to be a small minority here though, as others are convinced SC has robbed them of stars, and no one else. Ever.

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Originally Posted by Superfinch30

Yay! That is such a rarity. Ty so much. Get the feeling you and I are going to be a small minority here though, as others are convinced SC has robbed them of stars, and no one else. Ever.

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I completely agree with your statements, and even when the game changes I still hold people accountable. Adapt and overcome. That is how all online games are. All I'm saying is that no matter how insignificant anything is, it has some amount of merit and we can always ask for improvements and timely fixes to bugs. Does this small amount play a large role, no. Can game coding and bugs affect stars, yes. With this in particular, it is probably very little, but the pause and no shoot from troops can affect things when you are racing the clock and waiting for your wizards/AQ/archers to make it through walls to get to one of the remaining buildings.

Again, very small anount, even fewer times where it actually matters. I just want more from SC. Even if they just responded to things and said "working as intended," I would be happier than non-responses, lame excuses, or months to fix things. 5 mil/day is a lot. The company practices could be a lot better.

Without doubt. I agree.

I don't think this needs fixing though. Simple matter of rounding and/or target/re-targeting.

X-bow glitch took far too long to fix, sticky buttons still waiting, and time bug is swept under the carpet as quickly as possible.

All abominable under the circumstances, ie their turnover compared to staff costs.

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Originally Posted by Superfinch30

Without doubt. I agree.

I don't think this needs fixing though. Simple matter of rounding and/or target/re-targeting.

X-bow glitch took far too long to fix, sticky buttons still waiting, and time bug is swept under the carpet as quickly as possible.

All abominable under the circumstances, ie their turnover compared to staff costs.

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