Serious proposal to change lightning/DE storage behavior

Still a bad idea. Every time. Because . . . I'll just leave this hear . . . again.

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Originally Posted by iceageg

. . . First you must understand that zapping is very inefficient for ALL players. For the amount of elixir it costs and time it takes to build all of those lightning spells you could very easily get a boatload more DE with a decent army and attack strategy. This is simple fact supported by elementary school math and years of gameplay proof. For this reason zapping is self-punitive. So why then would anybody do it? There are two basic reasons why people zap.

The first is because they are TH7 or late TH8 and have way more elixir than they can use. They also do not need heal, freeze, rage or jump spells to farm effectively. Add those two factors together and you get prime conditions for spending elixir in wasteful ways and a reason to have lightning spells ready to use at all. Add those two factors together and ANY dark elixir they can get from lightning ends up being a good use of their elixir and time. They can't do anything else with their elixir and have no practical use for spells anyway. TH9-10 on the other hand need both their elixir and a spell or two for attacking other TH9s and TH10s. All of a sudden wasting elixir, time and space on lightning spells actually hurts your gameplay. More about this later.

The second main reason people zap is good old fashion revenge. Almost the ONLY time that zapping is efficient as a TH9 or TH10 is when you have somebody on your revenge list with a full DE storage and you have excess elixir that you can justify burning. You may not want to have a full army sitting around purpose built for the moment you can revenge them so instead you continue farming and keep 3 or 4 lightning spells on hand just incase they are available to revenge. Eventually you get your sweet reward. TH7 and TH8 however have a very different reason for zapping revenge. Keeping in mind that it makes sense for them to zap in the first place, they have another factor to consider. TH9s and TH10s artificially drop trophies so that they can farm easier bases. They do this for the logical economic reasons that a cheap/fast army can get lots of loot and because there is a much lower chance of somebody strong enough to take it finding you before your TH gets sniped. That's right, as a TH9 or TH10 you get to have ALL weaker villages that have zero chance of revenging you effectively on your log AND you are surrounded by them giving you cheap shields quickly. You are INVINCIBLE!!! There's nothing those weaklings can do to stop you!!! MUAHAHAHA!!! . . . except zap the snot out of your DE.

That's right. The ONLY drawback to farming is that those puny little weaklings you have been picking on all along can zap you. It's the ONLY bad thing about farming. Without that you would be able to play completely risk free. Your loot would be safely removed from the economy because nobody could get to it. It would be AWSOME . . . except that the very concept of being invincible and able to hide all of your loot is game breaking. Nobody should ever be safe from attack and nobody should be able to hide all of their loot. Ever. Zapping is the only reason you might want to consider moving up in trophies to play where your TH9-TH10 counterparts exist without artificially dropping trophies.

Which brings us back to the "move up in trophies" response that you discredit so vehemently. Remember when I mentioned that TH9's and TH10's rarely benefit from zapping? That is why moving up in trophies works. Heck, zapping encourages you to move up in trophies. If you WANT to hang out where zapping is effective you should be zapped and often. You are choosing to sandbag so you can pick on the easy targets. I'm not saying that is a bad thing. I do it too and I should be zapped for it. I could do the "honorable" thing and move up in trophies but I choose not to for the same reason you do. Because when I log off I would rather loose 1000 DE to a zapper, or even 3000 DE to three zappers than loose 300k gold, 300k elixir and 3000 DE to the first attack that comes along. Getting zapped and snipped is VERY beneficial.

There are of course a few TH9s and TH10s who do not understand basic math and zap aggressively like they learned to do at TH7. They are their own worst enemy. Wasting their own time and resources, thus slowing their own progression. As Ron White so eloquently put it, "You can't fix stupid." Altering game play to compensate for a very small % of players who are of below average gaming ability is just bad policy at face value. They are already punishing themselves even if they don't realize it. They are certainly not a good or justifiable reason to compromise the health of the game.

In sort, if SC made it possible for you to get all the loot you wanted with no risk of loss they would call the game Hay Day. In a game like CoC nobody should be safe beyond their shield. Ever. Zapping is the only thing that makes danger at every level possible. It is good for the health of the game BECAUSE you don't like it. . .

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Originally Posted by JohnIdeas

You have a farming base. TH so easy to destroy trophy seekers love you. You have mega loot, about 5 million gold and elixir, 100k dark elixer. You log off COC, troops in clan castle, thinking everything is ready and set so you wont get raided too badly...most likely. Then when you log back on,

DON, DON, DON,

You got raided about 10 times. However, not one person left you with a shield. Each of the those people used 3-5 lighting spells on your Dark elixir taking on average 1.5k dark elixir. That is a grand total of 15k dark elixir!

WOW!

So your telling me that all of us th.10 people who have worked so hard to get our defenses up and protect that which is so precious, our dark elixir. Making these fortresses and placing that precious commodity where hopefully no troops would ever come near, yet its pointless. These lighting spells just surpass everything we worked so hard to build. We might as well just place our dark elixir on the outside and let them take it because there is no point in protecting it. A low lv person can just look at your base drop a few lighting spells and walk away with 1.5k dark elixir and leave you with no shield so that the next person can do the same. What's to stop the game from this 10 person streak from dropping lighting spells besides the fate that is given to a COC player.

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If you've worked so hard to get your TH10 defenses upgraded, why don't you put them to use in a league that players wouldn't in a million Nexts choose to zap your DE and then end the battle w/o at least taking your TH for the cups and more importantly, staggering league bonus?

I donate golems from my mini to my TH10 when GoArching in Champs, and I have to switch my base layout to a trophy base during farming sessions just so that I have enough time to switch accounts, donate, and switch back without having the very first person who Nexts onto my base snipe my TH for the league bonus. When my TH is outside it happens in a matter of seconds. Exposed THs up in Champs league are the frickin' unicorn of farming. Statistically speaking, you will never see one, even though I'd bet at least 75% of players in Champs keep their TH outside. They get sniped that fast that the moment your shield runs out, you've got another one. This same phenomenon happened to me in all three Masters leagues as well, and it's b/c no matter how much you've Nexted, you never pass up on a free 100k/100k/500+ loot if it can be done in a matter of seconds with no troop loss.

Are you down in Gold league and can't understand why players don't chomp at the bit to get your monster 10k/10k league bonus with a TH snipe? Maybe b/c it's not worth their time. If you want to protect all your loot, not limited to just your DE, your best defense is putting your TH outside in a high league, not the level of your defenses.

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Originally Posted by CaptainSport

What? Do YOU have the screenshots I need?
A zap and snipe gains wayy less DE than a gibarch that gets 3000 DE. Plus, they both give shields.
Don't act like I've never been zapped before.
If you are getting zapped without a snipe, you need to push up into crystal 1- masters. NO ONE will zap you unless they take your townhall too.

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Originally Posted by SailHawk

He was not the only one to send shots. Others did as well if memory serves. I think they were only like 5 or 6 in a row. So the hundreds of people reporting the same thing must have all gotten together to make it up. How can you even think this is not possible unlucky yes impossible absolutely not. Anyway back to zapping in c3 and I now don't give a shield either.

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This is impossible. 10 times in a high league? I have been in champs for over a month straight now, and the only times I've ever not gotten a shield is why I accidentally left my base as a trophy base and got hit for 39% or less while they threw their entire army and 5 spell arsenal at me. And believe me, I took some HEAVY loot losses in those sub-40% victories. Not once, ever, zap or not, have I experienced a player up here do their attack/zap and then end the battle as a loss before taking my TH for the free league bonus and few cups. I am telling you that never in the history of this game has anyone with a farming base gotten zapped more than 5 times in a row up in champs, let alone 10. Hell I'd bet the most anyone has ever experienced up here would be 3 zaps before getting a shield.

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Originally Posted by SailHawk

Let's use the guy that sent you screen shots of losing 19k de with no sheild even though his th was inside. Should it be possible for this to happen? This is a good thing? If the answer is yes we could not possibly have anything further to talk about as you just don't get it.

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No, YOU don't get it. He's trading loot for trophies. If he valued his stores of loot more than the trophy range he was in, he'd keep his TH outside and enjoy Snipe City at the devastating loss of little to no loot (maybe 1-2k DE in a zap) and - 1-5 trophies. This should absolutely be possible to happen, and it's a similar case to those with a well set-up base who win consecutive defenses in a row at the heavy loss of all 3 resources. Those players who are zapping him and leaving not only don't get the 180k/180k/1200 league bonus for the win, but they run the risk of losing their Champs badge and further ability to get that nice bonus.

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Originally Posted by CaptainSport

So.... where's the link I asked for?
Good luck staying in C3 without giving anyone a shield!

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Originally Posted by SailHawk

Pretty easy to barch back all the cups I lost and then some while spells cook.

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And SailHawk is coming up with illogical scenarios as it would take nothing to drop a hero or 3 archers on an exposed TH after the zap. He's not purposely letting farming bases go unshielded and then investing his whole barch army in getting back those trophies; he's just frustrated b/c he's (potentially) losing DE to zappers but is unwilling to take the steps necessary in minimizing that risk to a non-issue. So he sits here and claims that he's farming in the most inefficient way just to try and prove a point which isn't actually happening.

I think that the arguments for and against messing with the Lightning zapping on the forum is interesting, but is kind of missing the point.

when I started this thread, at the very top, I stated the reason why I proposed my idea. It was not because I was bothered by the zapping ( for the record, I'm currently farming in crystal 1 with 124K de in my storage and my TH outside. so I know how to get around the zapping problem myself). Instead, I am looking at this problem from the game designer's point of view instead of the player's point of view.

From a game designer's point of view, it does not matter why their players gripe about a feature in the game, as long as a significant portion of their player base gripe about it, then it is to the game designer's benefit to do something about it.

My feeling is that Supercell does want to do something about it. Because many updates ago, they did tweak the hitpoints and capacity of the DE storage with the explicit purpose to reduce the impact of zapping. And very recently, Supercell also give DE drills to TH7, which is a move directed at reducing the incentive to resort to zapping.

My arguments is that these moves hasn't gone far enough yet. That there is a very simple tweak - one line of code change - that goes along the same line as the "increase DE storage capacity and HP" idea, that will more drastically affect lightning spell's affect on storages. Yes, it will have a bit more effect on the non-zapping part of games play, which is not ideal, but I think that the effect can be tolerated, because the amount of resources gained would be the same if the entire building is destroyed.

yes, my day job is an engineer. I don't design games, but I analyze computing systems for a living.

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Originally Posted by Frankcy11

. . .From a game designer's point of view, it does not matter why their players gripe about a feature in the game, as long as a significant portion of their player base gripe about it, then it is to the game designer's benefit to do something about it. . .

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No, in this case the griping is proof that the game dynamic in question is working. Go back up page and re-read my post again. Zapping is good for the game BECAUSE it is irritating.

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Originally Posted by Frankcy11

My feeling is that Supercell does want to do something about it. Because many updates ago, they did tweak the hitpoints and capacity of the DE storage with the explicit purpose to reduce the impact of zapping. . .

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Yep. They re-balanced the important dynamic that is zapping. It needs to be painful enough to work but not so over the top that it is absurd. "Many updates ago. . ." speaks volumes about how they think their re-balancing efforts worked.

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Originally Posted by JohnIdeas

First some background: Love the game, play often, th.10, leader of lv.4 war clan.

IMAGINE THIS:

You have a farming base. TH so easy to destroy trophy seekers love you. You have mega loot, about 5 million gold and elixir, 100k dark elixer. You log off COC, troops in clan castle, thinking everything is ready and set so you wont get raided too badly...most likely. Then when you log back on,

DON, DON, DON,

You got raided about 10 times. However, not one person left you with a shield. Each of the those people used 3-5 lighting spells on your Dark elixir taking on average 1.5k dark elixir. That is a grand total of 15k dark elixir!

WOW!

So your telling me that all of us th.10 people who have worked so hard to get our defenses up and protect that which is so precious, our dark elixir. Making these fortresses and placing that precious commodity where hopefully no troops would ever come near, yet its pointless. These lighting spells just surpass everything we worked so hard to build. We might as well just place our dark elixir on the outside and let them take it because there is no point in protecting it. A low lv person can just look at your base drop a few lighting spells and walk away with 1.5k dark elixir and leave you with no shield so that the next person can do the same. What's to stop the game from this 10 person streak from dropping lighting spells besides the fate that is given to a COC player.

Conclusions:

Lighting Spells and then no shield is a problem.

Solutions:

1. Add a bonus shield anytime someone only drops lighting spells.
2. Lighting Rod, can be placed on any one building and will absorb some/all of the blast. (my favorite)
3. Add another dark elixir storage so that lighting spells cannot take so much dark elixir at once.
4. Make dark elixir storage more lighting proof, so less percentage of damage from lighting spells.

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You are in the WRONG league.

In Crystal 2, no one will pass up a TH snipe because of the decent loot bonus - to include 200 DE. So why would someone who stole 1500 DE pass up on 200 additional FREE DE? Not to mention 50k in gold and elixir, elixir to compensate on the costs of the lightning spells themselves?

No one any higher will ignore an exposed, ignoring the free loot bonus?

The only place I could foresee someone not caring about an exposed TH is in lower leagues with low to non-existent loot bonus.

So if you are in a low league, you have no one but yourself to blame.

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Originally Posted by AxionXD

You are in the WRONG league.

In Crystal 2, no one will pass up a TH snipe because of the decent loot bonus - to include 200 DE. So why would someone who stole 1500 DE pass up on 200 additional FREE DE? Not to mention 50k in gold and elixir, elixir to compensate on the costs of the lightning spells themselves?

No one any higher will ignore an exposed, ignoring the free loot bonus?

The only place I could foresee someone not caring about an exposed TH is in lower leagues with low to non-existent loot bonus.

So if you are in a low league, you have no one but yourself to blame.

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Haha, don't try and tell jerry93 this, or he'll fly off the handle calling you every name in the book about your "noob zapping" ways.

But spot on, the league bonuses are what protects your loot more than anything. Being in a lower league only lets you gamble that a bad farmer chooses to hit your base, vs a skilled one up in high leagues. But most skilled farmers in high leagues can do a quick cost-benefit analysis of using one AQ or 3 archers to get a quick 100k/100k/500 or more haul via a TH snipe. The best defense in this game is having your TH outside in a high league.

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Originally Posted by iceageg

No, in this case the griping is proof that the game dynamic in question is working. Go back up page and re-read my post again. Zapping is good for the game BECAUSE it is irritating.

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In my experience, whenever you design something that interacts with your customers, having a feature that can be characterized as "irritating" is never a good thing.

A game feature can be "difficult". That's fine. Because as long as you scale the reward for that difficult feature correctly, your players will love it.

In fact, this is the core of computer game designing. Players play because of the elation they get from the feeling of accomplishment. The harder the challenge, the greater the feeling of accomplishment, and therefore the better the game. But if you make the challenge too hard, then the players will give up.

There is no place in a game for "irritating" features. These features can be hard or easy to solve, but are often associated with no rewards (mostly because most irritating feature are side effects rather than designed features, so there are no designed rewards). If a game has enough "irritating" features in it, then it becomes a bad game.

edit:
From game design point of view, these is another way to "fix" zapping, that is: to provide a reward for defeating zappers. And there is already a way to defeat the zappers, that is called Revenge!

However, currently the revenge feature is a bit broken. When you most feel like revenging someone ( you just got raided, your blood is hot), that players is most likely still online.

Supercell could "fix" zapping" by allowing revenge on players still online, but not against shield! This would make it possible for players to get the raided notification, check that they have been zapped, then immediately dish out the revenge. That sort of revenge attack, and the feeling of elation from justices served, is the type of emotional results that game designers hope for.

Now, allowing wider range of revenge is a major change and could have very large game play effects. Some effects could be negative. So it needs to be dealt with carefully. But, it is another possible solution.

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Yep. They re-balanced the important dynamic that is zapping. It needs to be painful enough to work but not so over the top that it is absurd. "Many updates ago. . ." speaks volumes about how they think their re-balancing efforts worked.

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This I do agree with. Fixing zapping is not a top priority. People are not leaving the game because they got zapped left and right. For the most part, they grip about it, and kept on playing. This means that the solution to zapping should be a very subtle tweak. One that affect overall game balance as little as possible.

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Originally Posted by Frankcy11

. . . In fact, this is the core of computer game designing. Players play because of the elation they get from the feeling of accomplishment. The harder the challenge, the greater the feeling of accomplishment, and therefore the better the game. But if you make the challenge too hard, then the players will give up.

There is no place in a game for "irritating" features. . .

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And we get back to the crux of the issue. The only players that are being irritated by zapping are the players that are not trying to accomplish the game. They are not challenging themselves or striving for anything. They want to sit in low leagues and pick on smaller players so they can steal more loot from them with no risk of being revenged for it. They do this because they want to be invincible and safe. If you want to debate bad game design . . . if anybody can take whatever they want and never be at risk of being attacked back . . . THAT is bad game design. Adding a dynamic that irritates them into playing the game at their own level for, "the greater feeling of accomplishment, and therefor a better game." that discourages picking on the lowbies and does so at what is really a VERY small tangible loss . . . that is good game design.

Zapping is almost unheard of in higher leagues and is thus, not irritating to the players who do strive to meet that challenge that you use as the mark of a good game. Again proving that zapping is only irritating to players who are sandbagging by any statistically relevant volume.

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Originally Posted by Frankcy11

In my experience, whenever you design something that interacts with your customers, having a feature that can be characterized as "irritating" is never a good thing.

A game feature can be "difficult". That's fine. Because as long as you scale the reward for that difficult feature correctly, your players will love it.

In fact, this is the core of computer game designing. Players play because of the elation they get from the feeling of accomplishment. The harder the challenge, the greater the feeling of accomplishment, and therefore the better the game. But if you make the challenge too hard, then the players will give up.

There is no place in a game for "irritating" features. These features can be hard or easy to solve, but are often associated with no rewards (mostly because most irritating feature are side effects rather than designed features, so there are no designed rewards). If a game has enough "irritating" features in it, then it becomes a bad game.

Fixing zapping is not a top priority. People are not leaving the game because they got zapped left and right. For the most part, they grip about it, and kept on playing. This means that the solution to zapping should be a very subtle tweak. One that affect overall game balance as little as possible.

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This is partially correct. If some aspect of the game becomes broken, then it's worth Supercell's time to address and fix it. Zapping is not hardly having that effect at all. Just b/c a few are screaming loudly about it, does not mean that everyone thinks this way. In fact, almost every poll on the subject weighs heavily in favor of not adjusting anything about the current state of zapping.

You raised a great point with this response though, and we actually have the perfect example of when something did require fixing. The elixir for walls update. It absolutely crippled the economy for TH9/10s, and made the game completely unplayable from a farming (and therefore, warring/general) perspective. I left my clan and quit the game for 4 months b/c it was so bad. This feature broke the economy, the game, and needed to be fixed. I personally think they did a lazy and ♥♥♥♥ poor job of fixing it with simple revert, as it did nothing to help those affected the most by it (TH10s), but at least they recognized that they made a huge error in their idea.

Zapping will never have an effect on game playability that comes even remotely close to what the elixir for walls update did, and therefore it doesn't require any further adjusting or fixing.