TH #.5 issue. Fix it.

Hello, CoC community. There has been an issue arising that needs to be taken note of and corrected by SuperCell.

The issue is the TH #.5 manipulation for favorable war matchups.
- For those of you unfamiliar with this concept, it has become popular for players to rush a TH (except for troop levels) to an extreme level to gain a favorable matchup during war. For example: Last war, we had a TH7 match up against an extremely rushed TH10. The TH10 only built about half his walls, 1 air def, and a few other defenses, but had near Max Troops. The idea behind this is to manipulate matchmaking so that you can have higher level attacks to use against the other clan. They were willing to concede the 3 star against that base (just like a max TH7), however he was able to use his attacks on our TH10-9s.

I'm sure that most of you would agree this type of game manipulation is unfair and totally against the spirit of clan wars. I guess I could create a 2nd account and do the same, however, I'd just prefer that SC correct the problem and we can all move on.

In response to someone else giving me the much needed name of this... issue

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Originally Posted by WarrenJames

[rant]
OK, so there is a name for this min-maxed @#$%# @# $%@# Clan War @#$%#$% joykill we ran into awhile back. Thanks. Are those bases reportable? (anyone answering, just say yes or no, and maybe give the logic behind it if you feel like your head won't get bitten off) Because it is @#$%@%$ @#$%@#$ stupid to stoop that low to exploit the clan matching system like that. :mad: Would be more than happy to give Supercell data on how this happens so they can fix it. Or at the very least, ways to handle such @#$% bases.

There are few things I get ticked off about, and this is one of them. This is on the level of enragement most farming base users get when someone suggests an idea that would make thier shield generating base useless. Speaking of useless, don't argue with me on this issue. It will likely not get you anywhere anyway, besides hurt feelings, and no progress. People do have biases after all, and this is one I admit I have, and saying so as a fair warning.
[/rant]

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I'll... just lurk here and try to stay quite. I could be unbiased and more logical about it, but... would rather play it safe for everyone and not add to the drama.

Good luck on the discussion. Will be silently rooting for the obvious side I'm with on this issue. :smirk:

What the OP described is far more sinister than the .5 fad. A TH10 with a TH9.5 base would almost never get matched against a TH8, let alone a TH7. This could only happen if both clans had a bunch of TH10's, a bunch of TH6's, and a handful of bases in between. Even then, the clan war search engine would probably hate both clans and secretly plan to disconnect their clan leaders during war attacks in retaliation. :saywhat:

Anyway, I don't have a huge issue with the .5 phenomenon, as long as it's not an entire clan full of .5's.

However, really badly rushed bases (like a mild version of defenseless bases) do seem counter to the spirit of the game.

Perhaps a simple fix is an alternative way of adding up someone's attack and defense strength. For example, if you have TH10 attack strength, but TH1 defenses, the game seems to rank you as something in between, maybe a TH5 or TH6? Without insight into the war search algorithm, we can't know for sure. But maybe if the algorithm averaged 10 and 1 and came up with like 8? So averaging 9 and 10 would still be about 9.5, but averaging 10 and 7 might be 9, and averaging 10 and 4 might be 8, or whatever.

The simplest analogy I could think of, is to do a root-mean-square (RMS) computation. For example, the RMS of 10 and 9 is 9.513..., so that seems right. The RMS of 10 and 7 is 8.63, so still pretty close to the straight average (a.k.a. arithmetic mean) of 8.5.

However, the RMS of 10 and 5 is 7.9, and the RMS of 10 and 1 is 7.1.

If the RMS doesn't sufficiently prevent gaming the system, try a RMC (root-mean-cube, as in, the cube root of the mean of the cubed values). For a TH10 with TH9 defenses, this would be 9.526. For a TH10 with TH7 defenses, the RMC would be 8.757, so tilting close to being rated as a TH9. A TH10 with TH5 defenses would get a rating of 8.255, slightly more than a maxed TH8, like an early TH9. And a "defenseless" TH10 with effectively TH1 defenses would get rated as a 7.94, effectively a maxed TH8.

But this is a gross oversimplification, and anyway, we have no idea how Supercell does the war matching.

I see this more of strategy honestly and I don't believe this is a #.5 issue it's more of a someone found an easy way to win wars.

My clan is mostly TH7's and TH8's, so we haven't run into this fad yet. There's no point neglecting defenses at TH7 or TH8, because you can already 3-star your opponents with a non-rushed base. If you need easier opponents (especially at TH7), you're doing it wrong. Towards the end of TH8, taking on a maxed TH8 with dragons is risky. I've gotten 1-2 stars as often as I've gotten 3 stars, against strong TH8's, and I've only 3-starred one maxed TH8 ever.

I'm curious how much offense is taken into consideration, because people make it sounds like it's very little. For example, if you had a clan with 20 TH8.5's, how would they get matched up? That is, 20 bases, all with maxed TH8 defenses. I don't mean 4 level 6 wizard towers and 4 level 6 AD's, etc. I don't just mean the levels of the defenses, but the number of defenses as well. I'm talking about a TH8 that upgraded to TH9, and never touched their base layout. They just upgraded army camps, spell factory, lab, dark barracks, and did all the research.

Let's say they get matched against a clan that only has maxed TH8's and maxed TH9's. How many of each would there be? Would it be pretty even? Say, for example, 10 maxed TH8's and 10 maxed TH9's? Would it be heavily skewed towards TH8's, like maybe 16 TH8's and only 4 TH9's? Would it be all TH8's? If it's 10 and 10, then I'd say there's no problem here. If it's 16 and 4, or heaven forbid 20 and 0, then there's a huge problem.

Just going to support the op here. He's got a point. It's not just towmhall 5's it's all of them.

Their 4 VS our 4 (certainly worked out for the best for us but imagine if he had gone to 10 with Max drags.)

Their 4-
http://i.imgur.com/Svaleha.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/v8JxQu8.jpg

Our 4-
http://i.imgur.com/vaJ9NoN.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gX5Ybxo.jpg

Post reserved for my photos

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Originally Posted by GanjaSandwich

Just going to support the op here. He's got a point. It's not just towmhall 5's it's all of them.

Their 4 VS our 4 (certainly worked out for the best for us but imagine if he had gone to 10 with Max drags.)

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That TH9 is rushed and his troops are SUPER WEAK for a TH9.

AND your TH8 is WAAAAAAY behind in troops upgrades! How can your guy not have L3 dragons yet?!?!

I see no problem here.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyPC

That TH9 is rushed and his troops are SUPER WEAK for a TH9.

AND your TH8 is WAAAAAAY behind in troops upgrades! How can your guy not have L3 dragons yet?!?!

I see no problem here.

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If I had to guess, I would say he's a brand new TH8. Those troops are maxed for TH7. based on their defenses, they probably haven't been at TH8 for very long. I'm rusty on identifying AD's on site, but those are either level 4 or 5. If they're level 4, that means he's been at TH8 for least 10 days or so.

As for L3 dragons, it would take someone at least 24 days to get them, assuming they spend 4 days upgrading the lab, 10 days doing barch troops first for farming, then 10 days for dragons. And personally, I would do balloons before dragons. It's only a 5 day delay, and I think L2 dragons with L5 balloons is better than L3 dragons, unless you have someone in your clan who can donate L6 CC balloons.

Edit: regarding the troop levels, the only weird thing is the level 3 healer. Who does the healer as their first TH8 research?

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Originally Posted by JohnnyPC

That TH9 is rushed and his troops are SUPER WEAK for a TH9.

AND your TH8 is WAAAAAAY behind in troops upgrades! How can your guy not have L3 dragons yet?!?!

I see no problem here.

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Considering he just got to 8; How is he behind on anything? He's doing what he's doing and we don't usually war. Drags are quite a bit of time into 8. (I started mine after I maxed my barch back to back and started he drags so that 30 days.)

And yeah he's rushed but has 4 seaking air mines and managed to get his air defense up before war.

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Originally Posted by Xitra

If I had to guess, I would say he's a brand new TH8. Those troops are maxed for TH7. based on their defenses, they probably haven't been at TH8 for very long. I'm rusty on identifying AD's on site, but those are either level 4 or 5. If they're level 4, that means he's been at TH8 for least 10 days or so.

As for L3 dragons, it would take someone at least 24 days to get them, assuming they spend 4 days upgrading the lab, 10 days doing barch troops first for farming, then 10 days for dragons. And personally, I would do balloons before dragons. It's only a 5 day delay, and I think L2 dragons with L5 balloons is better than L3 dragons, unless you have someone in your clan who can donate L6 CC balloons.

Edit: regarding the troop levels, the only weird thing is the level 3 healer. Who does the healer as their first TH8 research?

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I questioned the healer as well lol. Not sure why he did that. But he did go afk so he might of just dumped elixer.

He got his new stuff up to townhall 7 so you're looking at level 5 air defense.

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Originally Posted by chrispeterson

I see this more of strategy honestly and I don't believe this is a #.5 issue it's more of a someone found an easy way to win wars.

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This has nothing to do with strategy unless your strategy is to manipulate the system to gain an advantage.

Again, I could do this on a 2nd account just like anyone else, however I would prefer that the game be altered so that everyone is on the same playing field. I don't want to have to make an account like this to manipulate the system so my clan has a better chance of winning a war.

I would rather SC just fix the issue.

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Originally Posted by DrakelBraknid

This has nothing to do with strategy unless your strategy is to manipulate the system to gain an advantage.

Again, I could do this on a 2nd account just like anyone else, however I would prefer that the game be altered so that everyone is on the same playing field. I don't want to have to make an account like this to manipulate the system so my clan has a better chance of winning a war.

I would rather SC just fix the issue.

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Go to towmhall 10; max drags. Go into clan wars with towmhall 7's and use max drags for defense. Never lose.

^^^
Considering I did encounter that townhall 9 who had 4 air defenses which means he was a 9 prior to war search (not that it mattered but it is an example of the issue.) it can certainly be abused and needs to be fixed as said within the thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrakelBraknid

This has nothing to do with strategy unless your strategy is to manipulate the system to gain an advantage.

Again, I could do this on a 2nd account just like anyone else, however I would prefer that the game be altered so that everyone is on the same playing field. I don't want to have to make an account like this to manipulate the system so my clan has a better chance of winning a war.

I would rather SC just fix the issue.

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Honestly, the .5 method is a minimal advantage at best. In a large clan, a single player doing it will have no measurable impact on the war matchup, given how much tolerance up or down there already is. All it will do is give that one player an edge in attacking their "mirror" in the other clan.

A clan full of them? For example, a clan full of 8.5's will get matched against a clan with a mix of TH8's and TH9's. Yes, they'll get easy 3* against the TH8's, but they'll have to work to get 3* against those TH9's. Meanwhile, the TH9's will be wiping the floor, able to use both attacks to get 6*. Honestly, I think a clan full of 8.5's is at a disadvantage.

The 8.5 or 9.5 route is only an advantage to your clan when a limited number of your players are in the .5 state, and especially if they are at the top (so they bring more firepower, while still being reasonably hard for the enemy to 3* except using their top players' attacks).

Excuse me, sorry, I promised I was going to just lurk, but got a question...

How do you know for sure they will be paired up like that? That is a very bad assumption to make, given how others have been saying this way of metagaming the clan war matching system is to get as low a strength clan matchup as possible. This, along with maybe a few very weak bases, to skew averages (assuming that hearsay is true), could put these X.5 TH level people with some really weak clans, and wipe the floor with them.

Remember, I did pointedly say our clan ran into another clan full of these x.5 bases, and clearly stated what the results were very adamantly.

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Originally Posted by DrakelBraknid

This has nothing to do with strategy unless your strategy is to manipulate the system to gain an advantage.

Again, I could do this on a 2nd account just like anyone else, however I would prefer that the game be altered so that everyone is on the same playing field. I don't want to have to make an account like this to manipulate the system so my clan has a better chance of winning a war.

I would rather SC just fix the issue.

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The STRATEGY is to build up your offense first instead of getting all those new defenses and putting yourself at a disadvantage, which is what people in good war clans are encouraged to do. Now, there are others who abuse this system but in no way is it unfair to do if they're a true .5 they can be three starred all the same but just attack higher.I don't see this as an issue honestly.

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Originally Posted by WarrenJames

Excuse me, sorry, I promised I was going to just lurk, but got a question...

How do you know for sure they will be paired up like that? That is a very bad assumption to make, given how others have been saying this way of metagaming the clan war matching system is to get as low a strength clan matchup as possible. This, along with maybe a few very weak bases, to skew averages (assuming that hearsay is true), could put these X.5 TH level people with some really weak clans, and wipe the floor with them.

Remember, I did pointedly say our clan ran into another clan full of these x.5 bases, and clearly stated what the results were very adamantly.

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No one knows for sure, because any one war (or even 5 or 10 wars) is anecdotal evidence at best, and almost completely useless for making any comparisons. I've seen huge mismatches where neither side had super-rushed bases, and everyone was scratching their heads why one side was so much more powerful (offensively AND defensively, almost base for base).

That said, Supercell has specifically stated that attack strength is included in the calculation. If we take them at their word, a clan of 8.5's should face a stronger matchup than a clan of maxed TH8's. The key question, which no one knows for sure (oh, I know a lot of you believe you know, but unless you know the algorithm used, you don't know), is how much attack strength matters, relative to defense strength. That's where the .5 strategy might give an edge, if attack strength is only like 20% of the weighting.

Honestly, I'm more worried about people that max their war troops, and leave their farming and other troops at level 1. For example, imagine someone who uses GoWiWi, who has all level 7 barracks and level 5 dark barracks (so healers, dragons, pekkas, and lava hounds aren't even unlocked), and only the troops they use in war (golems, wizards, witches, WB's, and maybe barch) are upgraded to max. At TH10, that would probably weigh as maybe a TH8 attack strength (my guess). That's the kind of exploitation I'm worried about. .5 is just a way to transition from maxed 8/9 to maxed 9/10, to ensure that you're not getting your ♥♥♥ handed to you for the first 2 months of the transition.

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Originally Posted by DrakelBraknid

Hello, CoC community. There has been an issue arising that needs to be taken note of and corrected by SuperCell.

The issue is the TH #.5 manipulation for favorable war matchups.
- For those of you unfamiliar with this concept, it has become popular for players to rush a TH (except for troop levels) to an extreme level to gain a favorable matchup during war. For example: Last war, we had a TH7 match up against an extremely rushed TH10. The TH10 only built about half his walls, 1 air def, and a few other defenses, but had near Max Troops. The idea behind this is to manipulate matchmaking so that you can have higher level attacks to use against the other clan. They were willing to concede the 3 star against that base (just like a max TH7), however he was able to use his attacks on our TH10-9s.

I'm sure that most of you would agree this type of game manipulation is unfair and totally against the spirit of clan wars. I guess I could create a 2nd account and do the same, however, I'd just prefer that SC correct the problem and we can all move on.

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um? what??????????????

Unfortunately, this is hard to reproduce. Basicly since you can't downgrade buidlings once upgraded to test things, and it is not in those clan's self interest that do practice such metagaming to tell others what they seemed to have discovered since the @#$%# want to keep the 'wins they (laughably) earn' coming in one after another.

What would/will likely happen is that Supercell will hear rumours of this, investigate (since they have admin control and can see almost everything), silently fix the problem, and not make a public announcement, unless they are forced to say something.

Evidence of this seems to support this (seems to) since the last time we got a horrific matchup was when the Clan War matching search took about an hour or more (idk exactly, didn't record the duration) to find a clan. Next war after that I didn't let it search longer than 10 minutes, since hearsay says it will prevent the algorithm from widening the search, and after 3-4 restarts, got a reasonable clan match.

Since then, never had to reset the search, since they have taken less than 7 minutes to find a match, all of which have been reasonable in base strength. Also the factor of when we start war changed, along running with a much smaller number of people opted in, or not punitively benched, so it is hard to say for sure why clan matchups have sped up for us, and matched better.

People here will likely be some of the first to hear from me once things go to hell again, if/when matched up with such a bad clan again.

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Originally Posted by GanjaSandwich

Just going to support the op here. He's got a point. It's not just towmhall 5's it's all of them.

Their 4 VS our 4 (certainly worked out for the best for us but imagine if he had gone to 10 with Max drags.)

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this way of gaming the system is poor sportsmanship in my clan. Can't beat up someone your own level so you work it to get matched to a weaker clan. Is winning wars really that much more important than honestly owning another clan? Seems kind of juvenile to me.

i do have to say that your number 4 guy needs to get a different base. I've seen our th8s destroy that exact one in so many wars. It's actually a pretty easy setup to destroy from what I've seen. Our th8s are all still kind of early yet too, but one of our th7s 3 starred that th 8 design last war too. She was expecting to only one star it for loot, but it fell like dominoes.

WHAT THE HELL!!

So sick of whiners in this forum.

My village;
My money;
My time;
My F******ing GAME!


I'm not breaking any SC's ToS so I stick to the right to play the game in ANY WAY I WANT!

I stick to the right to build ANY STRATEGY I WANT!

Not one will NEVER tell me how to play MY GAME!

If I want do developer my offense before my defenses, IT'S MY CHOICE. RESPECT IT!

No one can be forced to build a x-bow, an inferno tower, a cannon or whatever!


There are no issues here. JUST DEAL WITH IT!

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Originally Posted by Birdcraft

this way of gaming the system is poor sportsmanship in my clan. Can't beat up someone your own level so you work it to get matched to a weaker clan. Is winning wars really that much more important than honestly owning another clan? Seems kind of juvenile to me.

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I totally agree.

And I have a defenseless TH8. :cool:

That said, my main is a TH8 that's fairly well balanced. It's a little rushed (didn't max TH7 first, still catching up), but it's rushed offensively as well as defensively.

My alt account is a near-max TH7. Just have a couple dozen walls and hog research left to do. Parking here for a month or three.

The third account was mainly a way to play around with something different, just for fun. I'm currently leveling it to TH9 for the level 6 loons to donate back to my other two accounts. I mainly use it in my small clan that has several inactive members. I don't do it to get easier opponents. I just do it to make sure that my 6 attacks can make up for 3 inactive players. Since those 3 players aren't attacking, but they have TH6 and TH5 bases, I need my defenseless account to rank low to try to compensate. It's practical.

Exploiting the system? Yes. But not for the reasons that most people would.

And anyway, a defenseless account is nothing like a .5 account. I think a .5 account is a perfectly legitimate route to go, provided it's not an entire clan of them. Everyone should be upgrading at different times, unless it's a coordinated effort to exploit the system. If everyone is upgrading at different times, only a few should be .5's, because at TH9 and TH10, you'll only spend a couple months as a .5, and the next several months working on defenses.

My God, what is going on today with these .5 TH posts???

First off, this is just a BADLY rushed base. It's not remotely ANYTHING to do with the .5 TH strategy. So let's clear that up first.

Next, now are people REALLY crying and whining over badly rushed bases with terrible troops in clan wars?? You want to see bases like that. His base should be flattened by any TH8. Not to mention his base is a total joke to raid regularly for loot. If there was a clan full of these you should be jumping for joy because you should 3 star all of them.

This whole thing with people complaining about .5 TH without even having a clue what it is has gotten really out of hand.

It needs to be looked at, basically the matchmaking formula needs to be changed.

More weighting needs to be applied to offense, heroes also.

Seeing bases with all max troops & lv 40 heroes get low weighting because they neglected a few defenses is an absolute joke. Everyone one with half a brain knows offense is what wins you wars. Offense is what wins you loot, offense is what wins you clan xp.

So you'd think offense would make most of the weight in wars wouldn't you? Right?

But for some reason now we have had the same system for over a year unchanged and more and more players are exploiting what has clearly been a flawed system since day one.

I'm guessing a Youtuber made a video on this subject because it's the second repost in a few days:

http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...ed-to-be-fixed

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Originally Posted by SuperR0ck

WHAT THE HELL!!

So sick of whiners in this forum.

My village;
My money;
My time;
My F******ing GAME!


I'm not breaking any SC's ToS so I stick to the right to play the game in ANY WAY I WANT!

I stick to the right to build ANY STRATEGY I WANT!

Not one will NEVER tell me how to play MY GAME!

If I want do developer my offense before my defenses, IT'S MY CHOICE. RESPECT IT!

No one can be forced to build a x-bow, an inferno tower, a cannon or whatever!


There are no issues here. JUST DEAL WITH IT!

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Exactly right. But there's a lot of kiddies who think Wiki strategies are gospel and everyone should do mirror attacks, level everything up in parallel, etc etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperR0ck

WHAT THE HELL!!

So sick of whiners in this forum.

My village;
My money;
My time;
My F******ing GAME!


I'm not breaking any SC's ToS so I stick to the right to play the game in ANY WAY I WANT!

I stick to the right to build ANY STRATEGY I WANT!

Not one will NEVER tell me how to play MY GAME!

If I want do developer my offense before my defenses, IT'S MY CHOICE. RESPECT IT!

No one can be forced to build a x-bow, an inferno tower, a cannon or whatever!


There are no issues here. JUST DEAL WITH IT!

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Emo much?

No one is telling you how to play the game. No one is saying Offense shouldn't be upgraded before defenses.

The issue is manipulating the system so that a TH 9 or 10 with max troops is matched to a TH7 as an equivalent base. I don't care what you upgrade first, but a 10 with max troops matched against a 7 is a problem.

For those saying it doesn't matter because it's just 1 player, your point isn't really valid. Manipulating the system to gain 2 significantly stronger attacks than your opponent is an advantage...how big of an advantage depends on the size of the war. My clan generally falls around 25v25 so the advantage is noticeable.

P.S. This isn't whining. This is simply a discussion of an issue that is being abused to gain unintended advantages in war. If no one wants to see it fixed, or if SC decides to turn their back to the "phenomenon" and let it exist, then I'll jump on the bandwagon and screw some other clan over for the benefit of mine. However, as I originally stated, I'd rather SC just correct it.

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Originally Posted by daz258

It needs to be looked at, basically the matchmaking formula needs to be changed.

More weighting needs to be applied to offense, heroes also.

Seeing bases with all max troops & lv 40 heroes get low weighting because they neglected a few defenses is an absolute joke. Everyone one with half a brain knows offense is what wins you wars. Offense is what wins you loot, offense is what wins you clan xp.

So you'd think offense would make most of the weight in wars wouldn't you? Right?

But for some reason now we have had the same system for over a year unchanged and more and more players are exploiting what has clearly been a flawed system since day one.

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How do you know how that base "with all max troops & lv 40 heroes" got ranked in the matchmaking? The position on the map is NOT the ranking for matchmaking. It's just the ranking defensively, so that (in theory) the bases get harder to attack as you move up (or easier as you move down). It tells you NOTHING about their offense. And since offense is supposedly weighted in the matchmaking, it only tells you part of the details about how they were ranked in matchmaking.

Honestly, the only way to know how .5's get weighted in matchmaking is to be in a clan of ALL .5's, and see what kind of opponents they get, war after war after war. A single war doesn't tell you much, because we already know that mismatches happen all the time. You'd need to look at dozens of wars. Only then could you get an idea of how the .5's are being ranked. And you still wouldn't know how they'd fit into a clan with a moderately wide range of TH levels (like TH8's up to TH9.5's, or TH8.5's up to TH10's).

Only Supercell knows for sure, and for all we know, they tweak the formula with every update. I suspect a lot of the people complaining about .5's just got bad matches, and blamed it on the .5 aspect, when really it was just a bad match.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daz258

It needs to be looked at, basically the matchmaking formula needs to be changed.

More weighting needs to be applied to offense, heroes also.

Seeing bases with all max troops & lv 40 heroes get low weighting because they neglected a few defenses is an absolute joke. Everyone one with half a brain knows offense is what wins you wars. Offense is what wins you loot, offense is what wins you clan xp.

So you'd think offense would make most of the weight in wars wouldn't you? Right?

But for some reason now we have had the same system for over a year unchanged and more and more players are exploiting what has clearly been a flawed system since day one.

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And that will solve what? Then people will just max defenses and upgrade specific troops and still exploit the system.

I don't see what's wrong with TH .5 as it's intended. That is maxing defenses and then focusing on troops first at the next TH. Who are you to tell players what order they must upgrade? The intent is still to build a maxed base, but just focus on offense first. I wasn't aware that a player who didn't immediately build and max his infernos is a cheet. Nice to know.

Not to mention the offensive and hero upgrades will increase their war rating. The idea is to prevent drawing matchups that you have no chance of beating. It does not create easier matchups. It just keeps matchups to your own level, but yeah, that's obviously "gaming the system".

What really needs to be addressed are the people who abuse the system by building and cancelling IT/Xbow upgrades with the explicit intention of circumventing the system. A simple fix. Only allow a new building to be cancelled once.

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Originally Posted by DrakelBraknid

Emo much?

No one is telling you how to play the game. No one is saying Offense shouldn't be upgraded before defenses.

The issue is manipulating the system so that a TH 9 or 10 with max troops is matched to a TH7 as an equivalent base. I don't care what you upgrade first, but a 10 with max troops matched against a 7 is a problem.

For those saying it doesn't matter because it's just 1 player, your point isn't really valid. Manipulating the system to gain 2 significantly stronger attacks than your opponent is an advantage...how big of an advantage depends on the size of the war. My clan generally falls around 25v25 so the advantage is noticeable.

P.S. This isn't whining. This is simply a discussion of an issue that is being abused to gain unintended advantages in war. If no one wants to see it fixed, or if SC decides to turn their back to the "phenomenon" and let it exist, then I'll jump on the bandwagon and screw some other clan over for the benefit of mine. However, as I originally stated, I'd rather SC just correct it.

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I'a TH10 with level 2 wizard towers and similar but offensively every single unit is max level for me. I always get matched up with a TH10 or a really maxed TH9.

So you don't have a clue.

I'd cream myself if I got matched with a TH7.

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Originally Posted by AnonymousVillager

I'a TH10 with level 2 wizard towers and similar but offensively every single unit is max level for me. I always get matched up with a TH10 or a really maxed TH9.

So you don't have a clue.

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Do you have inferno towers, xbows and at least a lvl 1 of every defensive building possible? My guess is yes. Just b/c you rushed every other defense doesn't guarantee you're matched against lower TH's. These manipulators purposely leave out xbows, infernos, and other defensive buildings to ensure they are matched with lower levels.....so actually I do know what I'm talking about.

Maybe next time you can actually read and attempt to understand the OP before sharing your opinion...

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Originally Posted by DrakelBraknid

Do you have inferno towers, xbows and at least a lvl 1 of every defensive building possible? My guess is yes. Just b/c you rushed every other defense doesn't guarantee you're matched against lower TH's. These manipulators purposely leave out xbows, infernos, and other defensive buildings to ensure they are matched with lower levels.....so actually I do know what I'm talking about.

Maybe next time you can actually read and attempt to understand the OP before sharing your opinion...

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So what's you point? Someone who leaves out valuable defensive buildings is easily crushed by lower TH level attacks. I still get beat sometimes by a smart TH8 attacking me because my stuff is so low level. And that's *with* IT's and XBows.

And while you're whining, why not whine about the fact that I can dump level 6 wizards into a TH6's clan castle and wreck level 1 giants that try to attack him? It's part of the game that offensive players have some advantages, defensive players have others, and you can decide where inbetween you want to design your base. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by DrakelBraknid

The issue is manipulating the system so that a TH 9 or 10 with max troops is matched to a TH7 as an equivalent base. I don't care what you upgrade first, but a 10 with max troops matched against a 7 is a problem.

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This right here is the crux of the "problem", and one that we don't fully understand. But we have some anecdotal evidence that the problem is there. Not for .5 accounts, but for defenseless or nearly defenseless accounts.

Let's try a couple examples. I'll keep the clan small, 10v10.

In the first example, we'll use clans with a wide variety of TH levels. In order to make the effect visible, player for player, I'll throw 2 defenseless accounts in. The first clan has 10 accounts: two each of TH6 through TH10. However, one of the TH10's, and one of the TH9's, are defenseless. Let's call them A through J, with the defenseless accounts being B and D. (A is the strongest, J is the weakest.)

Rank	Clan #1	TH	Clan #2	TH
1	A	10	A	10
2	C	9	B	9
3	E	8	C	9
4	F	8	D	8
5	G	7	E	8
6	H	7	F	7
7	I	6	G	7
8	J	6	H	7
9	B	10	I	6
10	D	9	J	6

In this case, B and D clearly got very easy matchups. A TH10 matched against a TH6?

But look at everyone else. Half the players got matched with someone a TH level above them. How did this happen? Well, under the hood, the game is treating that defenseless TH10 (essentially a TH1 defensively) as a TH6 or TH7 or something like that, for matchmaking. They might have been "matched" on the map with a TH6, but in reality, they probably pulled in something between a TH6 and a TH8, give or take. Remember, your mirror on the map isn't necessarily who you were being matched against for finding an enemy clan.

Personally, I'd be ♥♥♥♥♥♥ if these guys were in my clan, and my mid-TH8 got matched against a maxed TH8 or an early TH9 because of it. Of course, I'd compensate by attacking down 1 or 2 spots on the map. (Not that my clan is really big about attacking your mirror, but we tend to do it for our first attack anyway, unless we have an obvious reason to attack up or down, like my max TH7 being matched against someone with level 3 AD's. Um, yeah, I'm attacking that early TH8 3 spots above me, thank you very much...)



Now a more realistic example. Clan #1 has two each of TH8, TH8.5, TH9, TH9.5, and TH10. Here, a TH8.5 means max TH9 offense with max TH8 defense.

Here, with the matchup being close, the TH10's will probably draw TH10's, the 9's will get 9's, and the 8's will get 8's.

Those 9.5's will likely draw early-mid TH10's. Those TH10's will have a slightly weaker offense (maybe not 240 troop space yet, maybe no freeze spell, or only a low level freeze, maybe only a few troop upgrades complete). But they'll probably have 3 X-Bows and 2 Inferno Towers. The lack of a freeze spell isn't an issue, since the 9.5's don't have infernos. I'd call that a fair trade.

Those 8.5's will likely draw early-mid TH9's. Those TH9's will have slightly weaker offense (probably close to 220 troop space, maybe lavaloonion unlocked, witches at least for GoWiWi). They'll have a pair of X-Bow's, the 4th AD leveled at least to 4 or 5. Again, not an even matchup, but a reasonable tradeoff.



This only becomes a big deal when half your clan (or more) are .5's. When 20% (5 out of 25, 10 out of 50, etc.) are in the .5 stage, it really should be a wash. You pick up a few extra 3 star attacks, but so does the enemy clan, if they're skilled. If anything, .5's should be inflating the number of stars won per war, on both sides. That puts more pressure on both clans to use all attacks, and use them wisely. But I don't see a huge advantage being given to either side.

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Originally Posted by DrakelBraknid

Hello, CoC community. There has been an issue arising that needs to be taken note of and corrected by SuperCell.

The issue is the TH #.5 manipulation for favorable war matchups.
- For those of you unfamiliar with this concept, it has become popular for players to rush a TH (except for troop levels) to an extreme level to gain a favorable matchup during war. For example: Last war, we had a TH7 match up against an extremely rushed TH10. The TH10 only built about half his walls, 1 air def, and a few other defenses, but had near Max Troops. The idea behind this is to manipulate matchmaking so that you can have higher level attacks to use against the other clan. They were willing to concede the 3 star against that base (just like a max TH7), however he was able to use his attacks on our TH10-9s.

I'm sure that most of you would agree this type of game manipulation is unfair and totally against the spirit of clan wars. I guess I could create a 2nd account and do the same, however, I'd just prefer that SC correct the problem and we can all move on.

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So you're basically telling that you're afraid of rushers? Quite ironic cause so many hates rushers and telling that rushers are noobs. Anyway, it's not really manipulation. You are only looking on war map which displays defensive ranking only. The offensive ranking isn't displayed at all or isn't provided by Supercell but if ever they provide it then that rusher you are talking about is definitely in higher rank way above the others. Remember, in matchmaking both offensive and defensive strength is considered.

Moreover, mirror match isn't the best strategy in war.

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Originally Posted by Xitra

How do you know how that base "with all max troops & lv 40 heroes" got ranked in the matchmaking? The position on the map is NOT the ranking for matchmaking. It's just the ranking defensively, so that (in theory) the bases get harder to attack as you move up (or easier as you move down). It tells you NOTHING about their offense. And since offense is supposedly weighted in the matchmaking, it only tells you part of the details about how they were ranked in matchmaking.

Honestly, the only way to know how .5's get weighted in matchmaking is to be in a clan of ALL .5's, and see what kind of opponents they get, war after war after war. A single war doesn't tell you much, because we already know that mismatches happen all the time. You'd need to look at dozens of wars. Only then could you get an idea of how the .5's are being ranked. And you still wouldn't know how they'd fit into a clan with a moderately wide range of TH levels (like TH8's up to TH9.5's, or TH8.5's up to TH10's).

Only Supercell knows for sure, and for all we know, they tweak the formula with every update. I suspect a lot of the people complaining about .5's just got bad matches, and blamed it on the .5 aspect, when really it was just a bad match.

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You are correct in the fact my experiences could just be bad matchups, I've seen some really bad ones either way. Some heavily in our favour - heavily against.

But the fact more and more clashers are advocating .5 mentality for upgrades to benefit wars to me is evidence enough to suggest there is a issue in matchmaking making it highly favorable.

I just hope SuperCell are seriously reviewing it and making necessary tweaks. The system has been going over a year now and we haven't seen any changes yet. Now with Clan XP on the line more clans are in the mix, and while there are ways to exploit. Be it big or small, it will happen more more than ever before.

Please explain how a TH .5 is making easier matchups. It's obvious from your sig that you are very experienced player, but it's also obvious you don't have a clue what TH .5 is, nor do about 95% of the people spewing nonsense on here all day long, including the OP.

It's a MAXED base that then focuses on offense first the next TH before upgrading defenses. Please explain how this all of a sudden creates easier opponents. Is a player required to add ITs instantly? While no one knows the matchmaking formula for sure, we do know that ITs and Xbows count for significant weight in the process. Hence, a new TH10 who is really just a TH9 with a new TH, would be pitted against much more developed TH10s that he/she has almost no hope of defeating. Not accounting for gems, it can take 6-8 weeks just to get your required offense up to snuff to attack like a TH10.

All the while, that player's war rank in matchmaking is increasing gradually to stay in line with their attacking level as a TH10.

This whole thread is a whiny rant asking SC to all of a sudden ban rushing. As another poster said, it's hilarious that supposedly skilled players are now fearful of preemies.

And just to add further to this, maxers will be benefit from this. You know what will happen with the TH .5 craze? A lot of bad players will look to it as a cheet to the system for easier matchup (which it's not), and then they'll realize that this isn't some magical method to all of a sudden start being a great attacker. They'll also not understand the concept as many here have displayed and rush their bases rather than maxing them.

Maxers will benefit with the influx of a lot of rushed bases with poor attackers.

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Originally Posted by Birdcraft

this way of gaming the system is poor sportsmanship in my clan. Can't beat up someone your own level so you work it to get matched to a weaker clan. Is winning wars really that much more important than honestly owning another clan? Seems kind of juvenile to me.

i do have to say that your number 4 guy needs to get a different base. I've seen our th8s destroy that exact one in so many wars. It's actually a pretty easy setup to destroy from what I've seen. Our th8s are all still kind of early yet too, but one of our th7s 3 starred that th 8 design last war too. She was expecting to only one star it for loot, but it fell like dominoes.

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I agree as they had 30 wins to our 2.

His is base did okay. My base did pretty good aswell but was 3 stared due to my townhall 7 defenses as an 8.

The best Clan war Army would be:

Half of the players are .5 players
Other half are maxed out players

Why?

Getting 3 Stars against a maxed out base is pretty difficult in townhall 8+
But if your offense is 1 level above it is doable (4th/5th spell, +20 Troop capacity, +AQ)

So Overall, if u have 2 th9 maxed base and 4 th8.5 players, the enemy will probably get something like 2 TH9max 2 TH8 and 2 early TH9

So position 3-6 will get 3starred by both teams, but Clan A has another 4 tries to get 2-3 stars at the first 2 positions.

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Originally Posted by AnonymousVillager

So what's you point? Someone who leaves out valuable defensive buildings is easily crushed by lower TH level attacks. I still get beat sometimes by a smart TH8 attacking me because my stuff is so low level. And that's *with* IT's and XBows.

And while you're whining, why not whine about the fact that I can dump level 6 wizards into a TH6's clan castle and wreck level 1 giants that try to attack him? It's part of the game that offensive players have some advantages, defensive players have others, and you can decide where inbetween you want to design your base. Deal with it.

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If your th6 opponents only have level 1 giants then they would be th3s? Guess I wouldn't be proud of that. I prefer to be paired against my equal. This way of playing is so childlike. "Haha I beat up a little guy! Guffaw".

Maybe sc needs to put way more weight into offense than defense. I know they did something to prevent defenseless clans from finding matches. Be nice if they gave it a tweak, as the more people that do this the less the rest of us want to play.

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Originally Posted by GanjaSandwich

I agree as they had 30 wins to our 2.

His is base did okay. My base did pretty good aswell but was 3 stared due to my townhall 7 defenses as an 8.

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that base is very common and I myself have wrecked it in the last 4 wars we have had. I would suggest not using an exact duplicate of any base you find online. And yes that base is super easy to crack. Don't know why so many people use it, but I'm not complaining. It makes my planning much more simple. Last war I almost was asleep when i attacked it. 3 stars easy. On their leader who changed his much more difficult base to that just prior to war. :facepalm: We all laughed.

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Originally Posted by AnonymousVillager

So what's you point? Someone who leaves out valuable defensive buildings is easily crushed by lower TH level attacks.

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Again, if you actually READ comments, I said that they concede 3 stars on the base just like any other TH7 or lower for the most part.

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Originally Posted by AnonymousVillager

And while you're whining, why not whine about the fact that I can dump level 6 wizards into a TH6's clan castle and wreck level 1 giants that try to attack him? It's part of the game that offensive players have some advantages, defensive players have others, and you can decide where inbetween you want to design your base. Deal with it.

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Here you're comparing apples and oranges. Every clan that wars, generally, has the ability to do this. So putting high level troops in low TH cc's is commonplace. Therefore it usually cancels out since it's done on both sides.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. It's a strategy game, if you don't like the strategy then i'm sorry but it is what it is and you have to get over it.

Oh and everyone STOP COMPLAINING!

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Originally Posted by DrakelBraknid

Again, if you actually READ comments, I said that they concede 3 stars on the base just like any other TH7 or lower for the most part.



Here you're comparing apples and oranges. Every clan that wars, generally, has the ability to do this. So putting high level troops in low TH cc's is commonplace. Therefore it usually cancels out since it's done on both sides.

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Both fruits. Both have seeds. Both grow on trees. Both have an outer skin. Both have fleshy interior. :smirk:

Wonder what Savage Seven would think of this, after all, they do war quite often.

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Originally Posted by Tsampsel25

If it ain't broke don't fix it. It's a strategy game, if you don't like the strategy then i'm sorry but it is what it is and you have to get over it.

Oh and everyone STOP COMPLAINING!

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Yes, stop companing while the adults are talking about a possible exploit in the game system. :rolleyes:

Some people... They think they know everything and feel like they can yell at others to get thier way.

Hi, this is my first post but ive been reading alot of stuff here in the forums for a few weeks now. So ive decided to register and toss a few comments myself.

I dont know if im understanding this correctly since i havent heard of this before. So you mean people have low defenses and strong troops?

Well if thats the case then if people want to use this "strategy" (for lack of a better term), then let them. Simply because it will take the same amount of time to upgrade troops for these cheeters and regular players due to the single laboratory. If they are on th5 with max th5 troops and low defenses, it doesnt really make a difference due to rarity of low ths in wars for clans who prefer higher th lvl composition for war. But if its th8, then think about it, its going to be very difficult to have strong troops while keeping low defenses.

As stated above, no matter what you do, it will still take the same amount of time to get max troops for any lvl of th because we only have one laboratory. Gemming is the only option and if they want to that, then let them.

Players who prefer to grind their way to the top are usually better anyway. 😏

Reading some more of these comments I'm realizing that you're talking about a certain section of town hall #.5s.

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Originally Posted by chrispeterson

Reading some more of these comments I'm realizing that you're talking about a certain section of town hall #.5s.

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Lol. Just thought of a th1 skipping the tutorial and being in a war somehow...