Town Hall 8 - Unbalanced Gold/Elixir spending before wall upgrades.

​Upgrading from a fully upgraded Town Hall 7 base to a fully upgraded Town Hall 8 base at the moment costs about 67 million elixir and approximately 239 million gold. This means that if you are a player that wants to max out everything before moving onto Town Hall 9; it currently costs you approximately 3.6 times more the amount of Gold than it does in Elixir, which means that most players have to either waste elixir in raids or let other players steal their significant excess of elixir.

This is because Town Hall 8 is the first time that Gold Upgrade Costs (not including Wall upgrades) are higher than the Elixir Upgrade Costs. Its about 110 million gold for non-wall Gold upgrades and 67 million elixir for elixir upgrades.

This equates to a fraction of gold to elixir that is 110/67 = 1.64. Comparing this to Town Hall 7 and any town hall before Town Hall 8, this number is always a fraction which is less than 1, because the gold costs are always less than the elixir costs before any wall upgrades.

Town Hall 9 and Town Hall 10 used to have the same issue as Town Hall 8 has with excessive gold upgrade spending compared to elixir upgrade spending before any wall upgrades, except Supercell introduced elixir wall upgrades for walls levels 7 and above to try and balance this excessive spending.

However, this did not work as it was too easy to upgrade level 7 walls at Town Hall 7 as the cost of non-wall gold upgrades at Town Hall 7 is still lower than the Elixir upgrade costs. So as most players know, Supercell removed this ability for walls level 7 and 8 to try and balance it, but this removal was too much as it has brought back the issue for Town Hall 8, which now has a unbalanced gold/elixir spending ratio again.

So to fix this issue, Supercell needs to bring back elixir upgrades for level 8 walls, as it is unfair at the moment. If this cannot be done, then Supercell should possibly remove elixir wall upgrades for level 9 to 11 walls again, to make the game fair again.

All gold/elixir costs taken from: http://clashofclans.wikia.com/wiki/Cumulative_Costs

I thought it was going to be a fair proposition.
I was wrong.
It was just an intelligent way of saying "TH8 Imbalance plz fix Supercell:(:(:( ok add lvl 7 lix wall:confused::cool::cool::cool:".

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Originally Posted by Arasein

I thought it was going to be a fair proposition.
I was wrong.
It was just an intelligent way of saying "TH8 Imbalance plz fix Supercell:(:(:( ok add lvl 7 lix wall:confused::cool::cool::cool:".

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Well isn't this the place to post propositions?

I mean i thought we are in the poropsal forum, right?

Anyway,
I agree with the OP, the amount pf gold needed at th8 is ridiculous. It took me almost 3 months to max th8 walls.


If Arasein has ever been to th8 and maxed it then he would understand.

But from his "troll like" behaviour and need for attention on a video game forum. I'm guessing he has a rushed base and hasnt had a chance to see how stressful th8 walls are or he is still a low lvl who has no idea what it takes to max th8.

At TH8, I didn't max it out only because I was wasting elixir. If I could still upgrade walls with elixir, I wouldn't maxed out my walls as well. Because of the wall grinding I did at the end of TH8, I didn't go for any elixir, so my Elixir Escapade is about 60 million lower than my gold grab, I think.

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Originally Posted by WickidInsaneCoC

Well isn't this the place to post propositions?

I mean i thought we are in the poropsal forum, right?

Anyway,
I agree with the OP, the amount pf gold needed at th8 is ridiculous. It took me almost 3 months to max th8 walls.


If Arasein has ever been to th8 and maxed it then he would understand.

But from his "troll like" behaviour and need for attention on a video game forum. I'm guessing he has a rushed base and hasnt had a chance to see how stressful th8 walls are or he is still a low lvl who has no idea what it takes to max th8.

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Originally Posted by TheShadow23

At TH8, I didn't max it out only because I was wasting elixir. If I could still upgrade walls with elixir, I wouldn't maxed out my walls as well. Because of the wall grinding I did at the end of TH8, I didn't go for any elixir, so my Elixir Escapade is about 60 million lower than my gold grab, I think.

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This is why something has to be done to resolve this, as Town Hall 8 should not have to be rushed to save elixir, and also it should not be the main source for looting elixir too.

It screwed up the game the first time, it would screw it up again.

The rushing was your own choice. Blame yourself if it didn't work out. Enjoy it if it did. Either way its all you man.


Pasted from a similar thread..... (note the reasoning behind their choice and the proof they had, it was not a guess)

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Originally Posted by rwelshjr

They did set it up wrong, that's why they had to correct it by removing it for lower level walls. This thread is basically asking them to repeat their mistake.

I did not capitalize either I did a few walls that way but I did not know at the time is was a limited window of opportunity plus I simply could not find ANY loot not gold or elixir because it had all gone into walls. I had stopped raiding and was putting into my own walls all the loot that my collectors/mines made. And since walls were not that expensive at that level I (and everyone else) never needed to save up any significant amount before I could dump it again. So I wasn't raiding and I wasn't getting raided. Nor was anyone else. That is the situation they are avoiding and should be.

I think OP and a few other guys here are thinking only about themselves and not about the game as a whole. I also think they are short sighted in their assumption that after they spend their excess lix on walls they can just raid for more to keep that going. They don't understand that if they did this they would find themselves suddenly unable to get more because it will have all dried up again. Maybe they are planning on gemming it is all I can see they might be thinking.

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Why does everyone always complain about the excess elixir at th8? You can either stay there and waste all of your elixir or make the smart move and go to th9. Dont worry about upgrading your defenses at th9 at first until you have your walls where you want them to be; just work on walls, troops, and army camps to use your elixir towards something useful...

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Originally Posted by rwelshjr

It screwed up the game the first time, it would screw it up again. . .

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This 1000 times. The ironic part is that once they upgrade to TH9 they will be the loudest to complain about too much elixir being spent by TH8's.

there's a reason why it was reworked, it did bad more than it did good

who is affected when they reworked it? TH8s that are trying to max
who was affected at the initial release of the elixir walls? ALL TH9s (not just those who are trying to max) and in turn also most TH10s (even those that are already maxed, cooking troops for pushing and war still costs elixir)

if they bring it down again, TH8s that are going for max will benefit, not all (not everyone is going for maxed base
but TH9s and 10 will be affected by it negatively

and I think making most TH9/10 happy is better than making some TH8s happy

some older players views that SC is taking care too much of the new players, and leaving the older players....there...
making the change back, will make it look that way too


I normally don't respond on elixir walls thread here in IFR, cause it will just pop out again tomorrow... by a different user...then the day after that...
then the day after that...
then the day after that...
then the day after that...
then maybe a rare day when it won't appear...
but it will appear again the day after that...
then the day after that...
then the day after that...

(similar to donate resources posts)

Seriously just move up to th9 or th8.5 I guess - a few missed skullies isn't going to hurt anything. then you can max lab, max drills, unlock AQ and begin the long hero grind while you get you walls up. Trust me, your elixir "problems" will evaporate into thin air.

I am at TH8 and have maxed every defense. Just one tesla finishing lvl 6 in 15 hours.

Few lab upgrades with elixir and few more with heavy DE ask are remaining.

Walls - 17 black ... rest are all purple.

So need 8m elixir, 120k DE and few hundred million gold.

But I don't think this is a situation of complain.

The game is unbalanced but I have elixir to spend on good troops. I can donate a lot in war and during normal requests. I can try hitting crystal league with good army. Practice attacks with good troops to perform well in clan wars ... this is a time to be ....

These are all phases of game .. be in it .. and enjoy it ...

If you reread my original post, I did address the reasoning behind their choice as to why they changed it.

I have two accounts - One Town Hall 10 and One at this point currently at Town Hall 8. My Town Hall 10 was upgraded to level 9 walls and some level 10 walls with gold only, as this was done before elixir wall upgrades existed. Before the elixir wall update existed, Town Halls 8, 9 and 10 usually had excess elixir in storages, which was not very useful, other than for reloading your X-bow etc, which was never too expensive.

When the elixir wall update was introduced, this removed the problem for Town Halls 8, 9, 10, except they also included it for Town Hall 7, which did not necessarily need it, as stated in the original post with reasons, which created a new problem in itself.

Supercell did the right thing for Town Hall 7, but arguably overreacted by removing it for Town Hall 8, as Town Hall 8 has the same problems as TH9 and TH10, which is again outlined in original post.

I think my point of view is quite fair because I have experienced both gold only wall upgrades and elixir/gold wall updates and I just think it is unfair that us TH9s and TH10s can spend our excess elixir, but the players at TH8 which definitely have the same issue as us, cannot do the same.

I am 15 wall segments or so from a completely maxed TH8, so I understand the pain it is to have to find so much gold, and I wouldn't have minded being able to upgrade walls to level 8 with elixir. However, I feel the need to point out, for at least the tenth time, that the elixir issue was addressed, albeit in a roundabout way--you can dismiss troops. Once you have a shield, train dragons and then dismiss them from your camps as they finish. Your can easily spend millions of elixir in one day doing this. (And don't forget, you can even drop rage spells on the goblins to drain your elixir even faster.)

Another elixir wall thread.
Please use the search function, there are many threads.
Here's a link to the best elixir for level 8 walls idea:
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...r-with-a-twist

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Originally Posted by NF2335

Another elixir wall thread.
Please use the search function, there are many threads.
Here's a link to the best elixir for level 8 walls idea:
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...r-with-a-twist

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This thread is not just about the walls; it's also about the Town Hall 8 gold/elixir spending imbalance too. (Some mathematics of this spending shown in original post.)

Thanks for thread link though, I'll check it out :)

I agree with the gold/elixir imbalance, and Ive written a thread about it. In my opinion they should just make level 9 walls available at th8. That should fix the problem without hurting the "loot" so much(as the lvl 8 walls with elixir would)

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Originally Posted by AlexJohal

This is why something has to be done to resolve this, as Town Hall 8 should not have to be rushed to save elixir, and also it should not be the main source for looting elixir too.

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Why not?

What's the main source of loot for TH6's? TH5's
What's the main source of loot for TH7's? TH6's
What's the main source of loot for TH8's? TH7's
What's the main source of loot for TH9's? TH8's
What's the main source of loot for TH10's? TH9's

Now, you personally might farm people your own TH level or higher. If so, bravo! Congratulations! Well done! But you are the exception, not the rule. And it's not because you've got mad skills, while the rest of us are noobs that pick on weaker players.

It's basic math. A TH9 with maxed resource collectors can generate about half a million gold/elixir per day. Assuming They are keeping 3 builders busy, plus the lab, that TH9 is going to need an income of about 2M gold/elixir per day.

Where does that other 1.5M gold and elixir come from? TH9's? Sorry, wrong answer.

Let's say you have 100,000 TH9's trying to farm 1.5M gold/elixir per day each. I suppose they could all get lucky and find dead TH9's that have fully loaded collectors. Those dead bases are also producing about half a million gold/elixir per day (because they maxed all 12 of their collectors and then quit playing???), so that means that those 100,000 active TH9's need to find 300,000 inactive TH9's. That's already a problem if you're expecting the game to survive by having 3x as many dead accounts as active accounts. Also, if you're farming dead accounts at your own TH level, you're honestly not any better than someone farming active accounts one TH level lower.

Okay, so let's say that you're expecting active TH9's to farm active TH9's. Isn't that obviously a zero-sum game? In fact, it's worse, because you're spending resources building armies and pressing Next, just to hit each other and hope that a small few elite players somehow manage to save up enough resources for an upgrade, while everyone else can't even keep the pathetic 500k gold/elixir per day that their collectors generate.

No, the game only survives because players (on average, not specifically) prey on players about 1 TH level lower. Going much lower than that is inefficient, because of the loot penalty.

Now, TH10's feed on TH9's. But TH9's are saving up for expensive upgrades. Also, even though early TH9's can dump elixir in relatively small 1M chunks, the mid and late TH9's will be working on level 10 walls. They can only dump elixir in 3M chunks. Hence, they will tend to have far more elixir than a hypothetical TH8 that could dump 500k elixir any time they want. So the current system isn't great for TH10's (the loot isn't as good as it was before elixir walls), but it's not terrible. TH9's have an all-you-can-eat smorgasborg of TH8's to feast off of. TH8's can do the same to TH7's. And so on.

But, if you give elixir walls to TH8's, you break the chain. The loot continues to flow up to TH8's, and then poof! It's gone, sunk into walls. TH9's can't no longer feed on lower TH levels, so they are forced to feed on each other. But there's nowhere near enough resource production at TH9 to feed all the active players. Some will get by, others will basically have to stop playing the game. I suppose that makes for more dead TH9's to feed the few remaining active players. But having half your players quit to keep the other half happy? Yeah, that sounds like an awesome plan.

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Originally Posted by Xitra

Why not?
What's the main source of loot for TH6's? TH5's
What's the main source of loot for TH7's? TH6's
What's the main source of loot for TH8's? TH7's
What's the main source of loot for TH9's? TH8's
What's the main source of loot for TH10's? TH9's

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This is not what I was talking about, so poor choice of words on my part, and it really is not the main point of this thread, but it is nice to see so much effort into posting a detailed post based off a short phrase.

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Originally Posted by Xitra

Now, TH10's feed on TH9's. But TH9's are saving up for expensive upgrades. Also, even though early TH9's can dump elixir in relatively small 1M chunks, the mid and late TH9's will be working on level 10 walls. They can only dump elixir in 3M chunks. Hence, they will tend to have far more elixir than a hypothetical TH8 that could dump 500k elixir any time they want. So the current system isn't great for TH10's (the loot isn't as good as it was before elixir walls), but it's not terrible. TH9's have an all-you-can-eat smorgasborg of TH8's to feast off of. TH8's can do the same to TH7's. And so on.

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This is what I meant in my original post of the potential to resolve the imbalance problem by removing elixir wall upgrades completely, so you are sort of agreeing with me.

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Originally Posted by Xitra

But, if you give elixir walls to TH8's, you break the chain. The loot continues to flow up to TH8's, and then poof! It's gone, sunk into walls. TH9's can't no longer feed on lower TH levels, so they are forced to feed on each other. But there's nowhere near enough resource production at TH9 to feed all the active players. Some will get by, others will basically have to stop playing the game. I suppose that makes for more dead TH9's to feed the few remaining active players. But having half your players quit to keep the other half happy? Yeah, that sounds like an awesome plan.

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Is this not the same as what happens at TH9 now? I think it is, as loot flows up to TH9 then elixir is spent on walls, and you just said earlier in the post that the current system is not that great for TH10s.

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Originally Posted by AlexJohal

This is not what I was talking about, so poor choice of words on my part, and it really is not the main point of this thread, but it is nice to see so much effort into posting a detailed post based off a short phrase.

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Um, okay, maybe clarify what you meant then? lol

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Originally Posted by AlexJohal

Is this not the same as what happens at TH9 now? I think it is, as loot flows up to TH9 then elixir is spent on walls, and you just said earlier in the post that the current system is not that great for TH10s.

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Well, yes and no. It's worse, for two main reasons that I don't think you're properly considering.

1. The level 8 walls only cost 500k, while the level 9 walls cost twice that. This means that if TH8's and TH9's dump all their elixir into walls, you would still expect TH9's to have almost twice the elixir. (TH8's offer 14% of storage loot, while TH9's offer 12%, so it's not quite twice as much.)
2. Once TH9's finish level their level 9 walls, they will start working on their level 10 walls. Those cost 3M each, which is 6x as much as level 8 walls. Even taking into consideration the difference in loot offered, you would expect TH9's to be offering about 5x as much elixir on average, even if they dump it all into walls.

Now remember, regarding this second point, that 3/4 of the wall costs at TH9 are the level 10 walls. So you'd expect about 1/4 of TH9's to be offering almost twice the elixir of TH8's, and about 3/4 of the TH9's to be offering about 5x the elixir as TH8's. If you do that math, it works out that TH9's would be offering 4x the elixir on average, that TH8's would be offering, if TH8's could dump all their elixir into walls.

Put another way, TH8's would be offering about 1/4 the elixir of TH9's. I don't know about you, but that sounds pretty crappy.

And we don't have to guess. It happened before. Loot was so bad for TH9's, that players quit en masse. So many players quit, or at the least stopped buying gems, that Supercell finally pulled the plug and took the elixir walls away from TH8's and below.

Honestly, level 9 walls are still a problem. but only a small problem compared to level 8 walls. I think level 9 walls should cost gold only.

Alternatively, they should give level 9 walls to TH8, and let them be upgradeable with elixir.

Alternatively, they should let us buy level 8 walls for 1.5M elixir (and raise the price of level 9 walls to 2M elixir).

Alternatively, they should shift some gold prices down to TH7, to give us TH8's less to spend gold on (disregarding walls, which are a perk). My suggestion here is the level 9 archer tower upgrade. That would shift 6M in gold costs down to TH7. It's not a lot, but it would help. Maybe shift the level 4 tesla tower upgrade as well, that's another 4M. Maybe shift the level 6 AD upgrade as well, that's another 4M. Probably not all three of those suggestions, but any two of them. It'd help with mass dragon raids as well (see the discussion linked in my signature).

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Originally Posted by melia004

I am 15 wall segments or so from a completely maxed TH8, so I understand the pain it is to have to find so much gold, and I wouldn't have minded being able to upgrade walls to level 8 with elixir. However, I feel the need to point out, for at least the tenth time, that the elixir issue was addressed, albeit in a roundabout way--you can dismiss troops. Once you have a shield, train dragons and then dismiss them from your camps as they finish. Your can easily spend millions of elixir in one day doing this. (And don't forget, you can even drop rage spells on the goblins to drain your elixir even faster.)

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I do the exact same thing. I have 16 skulls left to finish and train a full drag army with spells when I logoff. This is good for hitting a 1.5k dark/gold storage raid the next day. I've lost quite a bit to overflow but not as much as one would think.

I also keep one elixir storage outside next to my exposed TH to make it more inviting. Not sure if the strategy has worked as sometimes my base gets rolled anyway, but if it helps get a shield just once or twice it was worth it imo.

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Originally Posted by Azrial

I do the exact same thing. I have 16 skulls left to finish and train a full drag army with spells when I logoff. This is good for hitting a 1.5k dark/gold storage raid the next day. I've lost quite a bit to overflow but not as much as one would think.

I also keep one elixir storage outside next to my exposed TH to make it more inviting. Not sure if the strategy has worked as sometimes my base gets rolled anyway, but if it helps get a shield just once or twice it was worth it imo.

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Regarding the elixir storage by the TH, I haven't done that at TH8 (I still need elixir), but I did do it at TH6 one time. I decided to max TH6 completely, just to see what all the fuss was about.

I tried having both elixir storages protected, or one outside by the TH, or both outside by the TH. In my experience, I got TH snipes far more often with both elixir storages by the TH. Having one storage by the TH didn't work as well, so I still got raided from time to time. But it did seem like it helped a little, compared to both storages protected.

But each TH level is different, so this probably won't tell us much about TH8. I have a TH7 that's maxed except for walls, and one elixir collector that's halfway done upgrading, and level 2 hogs that I just started saving for. (Oh, and I don't have a drill yet, but that's a personal choice, and I'll get it while my TH is upgrading to level 8.) I haven't had excess elixir yet (I fluctuate between 500k and 1.5M). When my elixir gets around 1.5M, I just boost all my barracks and spell factory and do dragon raids for gold and DE. I'm considering putting the elixir storages in the corner. Since I'm farming walls with idle builders, I'll never have more than about 260k gold (I try to keep about 60k gold on hand for Nexting fees, so I don't buy walls until I get to about 260k). With elixir storages in the corner, the only resource worth stealing is DE, and TH7's don't offer a lot of that. Once I get to about 12k DE (offering around 720), I'll session raid the final 8k for the hogs, and then I'm done.

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Originally Posted by Xitra

. . . It's basic math. A TH9 with maxed resource collectors can generate about half a million gold/elixir per day. Assuming They are keeping 3 builders busy, plus the lab, that TH9 is going to need an income of about 2M gold/elixir per day.

Where does that other 1.5M gold and elixir come from? TH9's? Sorry, wrong answer. . .

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Expanding on your example, I did the math once. I lost the link to the original post so I don't have the exact numbers but it worked out to something like this. TOTAL resource generation at TH8 and TH9 is about 17% more than at TH7, and TH10 makes about 28% more than a TH7. However, for ONLY archer towers a TH9 needs 1700% more and a TH10 needs an additional 7000% more . . . just for archer towers.

Sure all those lvl12 collectors are nice but they are really just a drop in the bucket for what is needed. Attacking down is how the game is intentionally set up to work. TH7-8 produce more than they need, TH9-10 need more than they can produce. Lix-4-walls at TH8 means gameplay ends at TH8. This is fact. It already happened once. Without sweeping economic restructuring lix-4-walls is nothing more than a proven way to drive players away from the game.