Is Farming bad for the game? (Don't rant, no drama cases plz!!)

I was going to complain about how the easy shield from having your town hall exposed is really a pain. Was going to revenge attack a base, but within minutes of then logging off, they got a shield from a cheap Town Hall snipe. As you can imagine, that leaves one in my position feeling a bit jipped.

But guess what... I used the search feature! :D And guess what I found! http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...remove+farming A recent thread on the issue! Imagine that... But it was in the General forum.

Anyway, the issue is more complex than I original thought, and I knew it was complicated already! But... I'm still wondering. Is metagaming Clash of Clans for an easy to get shield "wrong"? (yes I know many people do it, but doesn't make it more right if it is still wrong) Removing it (properly) could help put the game more on line with what the makers of Supercell intended. There could be more bases to raid, less 'next-ing', possibly better flow of loot, more reward for making a stronger army, less pain from being looted since recovering loot would be easier, and many other benefits. Could... It's only a theory. Could be very wrong too.

I'm wanting a levelheaded talk on the subject, and no rants, no drama, no harrasments, and no insults. I want to improve Clash of Clans and want some ideas from people that have been there and done that with farming, along with fixes that would make them happy. I know this is a hot button topic, but please bare with me here.

I want to fix this possible problem, and of you become a problem, I will report you and fix you too.

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Added Edit: In hide sight, I should have used a different word than 'farming' for a title. I'm just referring to the exposed Town Hall Base layout that is common among people that 'farm'. At this rate, stuck explaining my point of view and correcting the assumptions made, more than addressing the question at hand, I may have to remake the thread with a different title, and call this one 'dead'.

If there was nothing but trophy pushing in the game, it would be boring. I'd rather wall grind than trophy push for an extended period of time.

It seems to me that you wouldn't be able to hold on to any significant amount of gold or elixer. If you were offline for an hour you'd be attacked 20 times. No way you could raid enough to compensate for that. Perhaps it is an option to allow a revenge attack even if your opponent has a shield or not.

No, I am not suggesting that shield be removed. I'm suggesting some way to remove the reason for farming (aka exposing the Town Hall for an easy shield, counter to what the game says is important) without causing said issues that you guys are stating. If you checked the link I posted, they say the exact same things you have, and more.

Killing the fun of a game just to make it fit the original ideal of how it should be played is totally counterproductive and extremely illogical. Plus doing that would bankrupt Supercell, and we'd have no more CoC. There is a reason (a damn good reason) why people resort to farming base layouts. For a game that wants you to protect your town hall, that seems like a glaring failure in design. Because of the metagaming with farming, which is one issue, this also spawns several more issues, like town hall snipers trophy pushing for easy loot from League Bonuses. Plus revenge attacks being all but a joke, from shield being gained so quickly.

As a TH8, I'm getting a taste of why people setup farming bases, and being stubborn in my ideals, I'm resistant on metagaming the shield with a farming base as well.

This is a hard issue to solve, since this has been with the game since almost the beginning, and obviously no one has come up with a way to fix it. Not surprising, since you now have people established in thier ways, and will just quit if thier farming method gets ruined, likely regardless of there being a better method being made as a result.

Farming is a sign of something else is wrong. Not something that is wrong in of itself. I want to know what that something is, which is causing the farming shield metagaming.

I will admit that I want to 100% disagree with this post because you seem like a world-class griper. The game is great, I don't think there is anything "broken" with it.

However, I have to be honest... I always thought that the shield for a TH snipe was a bit long. I'm fine with things the way they are now (and I proudly use a farming base ALWAYS, unless trophy pushing), but if the fine folks at SC decided to decrease the shield for a TH snipe to 8 hours I would be good with that.

Farm on!

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Originally Posted by k2aries

I will admit that I want to 100% disagree with this post because you seem like a world-class griper. The game is great, I don't think there is anything "broken" with it.

However, I have to be honest... I always thought that the shield for a TH snipe was a bit long. I'm fine with things the way they are now (and I proudly use a farming base ALWAYS, unless trophy pushing), but if the fine folks at SC decided to decrease the shield for a TH snipe to 8 hours I would be good with that.

Farm on!

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I completely agree with you k2aries! reducing the shield time would promote more revenges! I think there is nothing wrong with people getting a shield for putting their town hall outside. Why would SC limit different ways to play the game? That just doesn't make any sense.

It's good for the game, and it's bad for the game.

I think TH sniping should be disincentivized.

One option might be to add another shield duration, maybe 8 hours. But even that only puts a small dent in people riding free shields.

Perhaps make it so a TH snipe alone isn't enough to get a shield. Maybe it needs to be TH snipe plus 25% damage?

I don't think zapping is bad for the game, because if nothing else, you can leave your TH outside and hope for a shield. If they made it harder to get the free shield, then I'm sad to admit it, but I think zapping should be nerfed a little more. Not sure how. Making DE storage take less damage from lightning seems silly, but it might be needed. That, or add even more hit points to the DE storage.

Other options include the idea of paying out only a percentage of the league bonus to TH snipes, based on percentage of damage done. This would discourage it in high leagues.

Ok I think I see your point ! and I definitely agree that the revenge button is a joke. I play this game for about two years now almost daily and i have succeeded to get an revenge attack only a few times. Furthermore i also agree that It would be good if there were no reason to farm but I suspect also that it would require a total overhaul of the game or at least the loot/trophy system. I dont see that happening anytime soon except for some minor tweaks here and there.

Honestly, if farming was meant to be part of the game, and not something that happened on it's own because of some flaw that human nature can't deal with, it would have already had a mechanic for it added in. This is why I call it metagaming. It is 'gaming the system' in a way that it was totally not intended for. I can't totally blame people for doing that, since such ways of thinking is what allowed humans as a whole to exploit and repurpose many things in real life to advance things to a level we see now.

With that said, for people to just totally stop metagaming would mean they would effectively stop being human at all, and just be rule minded drones.

The way I see the issue with the farming metagaming is that there is an underlying problem that needs to be fixed, if the game is to be ran as intended. The game itself needs to change to better match how human nature is, and reduce the need to metagame so much, as to go totally contrary to the stated goals of the game.

sorry i forget to mention the suggestion that a townhall rebuild might cost gold or something likewise to make sniping less attractive

Someone seems to have confused farming with putting the th outside

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Originally Posted by Gama321

Someone seems to have confused farming with putting the th outside

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It usually goes hand in hand right 😜

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Originally Posted by WarrenJames

. . .Farming is a sign of something else is wrong. Not something that is wrong in of itself. I want to know what that something is, which is causing the farming shield metagaming.

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Since it is a videogame and it can be made to be whatever the designers want it to be, farming is only a sign that something is wrong if the designers don't like how it is or intended it to be a different way. It is entirely possible that this is how they want the core dynamic of the game to exist. You can drop or you can push creating a game that more people will enjoy instead of two different games to cater to both dynamics. It could be different in MANY ways but I will just touch briefly on two of them.

1) Can't drop trophies/matched against even-ish opponents all the time:
Nobody can drop to farm so you can only get loot from equal-ish level opponents. If you are TH9 or TH10 this will usually mean using a VERY slow cooking army that costs a fair amount because you will only ever be able to attack other TH9 and TH10 of equal strength. This also means you are going to have to next for a very long time before you see the first possible base that isn't going to be a loss of resources. Since collector production is capped at TH8 levels you can't possibly generate enough resources to fund the 7000% increase in spending at these levels. Just by making all nexting matches "even" we have crippled the economy even worse than lix for walls did. In short what seems like a simple evening of matchups requires a huge rebalancing of the economy.

2) No free shields/TH doesn't give a star:
You are a TH9 saving for your last lvl3 Xbow. You have been playing for hours and have managed to save 5.5mill gold but have to go to work. You log off and (because you have so much lewt available) you are instantly attacked and loose 200k gold from one side of your base but because you are a maxed TH9 your defense holds them to only 35% or so, then again, and again, and again, and again. In 45 minutes you have several successful defenses but you have lost your last 2 hours of game play. Effectively the game becomes only playable in 5-8 hour blocks. Anything less and you actually move backwards every day. Again, what seems like a simple change ends up requiring a restructuring of the economy to ensure that not only the addicted can even play.

There have been many suggestions made about how to do this and the death of each is accounting for all of the trickledown problems. None of us can do that. Only SC has the dev servers to run these changes in a sandbox full of beta testers and get an idea of what the repercussions will be. Farming is only a symptom of a problem if SC wants something different. It's their game and we can like it or not. I know I don't agree with every change they make but they probably wouldn't approve of 100% of the way I have my systems setup either. Bottom line, farming works within the game now. In fact, it is at the very core of the game which means changing it will have HUGE consequences bot for the good and bad unless it is very well thought out and tested. SC certainly has the budget. Question is do they have any interest? Who knows.

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Originally Posted by WarrenJames

Honestly, if farming was meant to be part of the game, and not something that happened on it's own because of some flaw that human nature can't deal with, it would have already had a mechanic for it added in. This is why I call it metagaming. It is 'gaming the system' in a way that it was totally not intended for. I can't totally blame people for doing that, since such ways of thinking is what allowed humans as a whole to exploit and repurpose many things in real life to advance things to a level we see now.

With that said, for people to just totally stop metagaming would mean they would effectively stop being human at all, and just be rule minded drones.

The way I see the issue with the farming metagaming is that there is an underlying problem that needs to be fixed, if the game is to be ran as intended. The game itself needs to change to better match how human nature is, and reduce the need to metagame so much, as to go totally contrary to the stated goals of the game.

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I like the point you made but not how you are making it. The way you are doing it reads to me as someone who likes themselves a little bit too much and wants to pea♥♥♥♥.

Selfishly I do not like th snipe shields as it inhibits my ability to revenge. Selfishly again I like to have the benefit of free shield when I do log off and know my loot is safe for a duration. So on the balance of this I think it is fine the way it is. Most likely you yourself are farming in a lower league as that is the only place th snipes occur regularly.

I would also disagree that farming was not intended. Walls and heroes take up a phenomenal amout of loot to max and without having a means of saving it and would be next to impossible for most clashers to do with the prices as they are.

Your problem will be solved if you trophy push to at least crystal 1 where almost everyone looks after their th and you have better opportunities to revenge.

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Originally Posted by WarrenJames

Honestly, if farming was meant to be part of the game, and not something that happened on it's own because of some flaw that human nature can't deal with, it would have already had a mechanic for it added in. This is why I call it metagaming. It is 'gaming the system' in a way that it was totally not intended for. I can't totally blame people for doing that, since such ways of thinking is what allowed humans as a whole to exploit and repurpose many things in real life to advance things to a level we see now.

The way I see the issue with the farming metagaming is that there is an underlying problem that needs to be fixed, if the game is to be ran as intended. The game itself needs to change to better match how human nature is, and reduce the need to metagame so much, as to go totally contrary to the stated goals of the game.

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I'm wondering how you know what the developers "intended" when they made this game? And I can't even comment on how you think that "flawed human nature" has messed up this game for you. I'm just speechless.

There are plenty of other "games who must not be named" out there that have failed spectacularly on their shield and loot calculations. The SC devs have done an amazing job on this game, as reflected in its concept and subsequent updates and tweaks.

It just sounds to me that you play the game a certain way and it confuses/upsets/annoys you that others don't. There is no one right way to play this game. I will never agree that farming is a way that people exploit the game. I now understand why you asked for no drama or rants. Sorry I couldn't comply :cool:

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Originally Posted by mushy

I like the point you made but not how you are making it. The way you are doing it reads to me as someone who likes themselves a little bit too much and wants to peacōck.

Selfishly I do not like th snipe shields as it inhibits my ability to revenge. Selfishly again I like to have the benefit of free shield when I do log off and know my loot is safe for a duration. So on the balance of this I think it is fine the way it is. Most likely you yourself are farming in a lower league as that is the only place th snipes occur regularly.

I would also disagree that farming was not intended. Walls and heroes take up a phenomenal amout of loot to max and without having a means of saving it and would be next to impossible for most clashers to do with the prices as they are.

Your problem will be solved if you trophy push to at least crystal 1 where almost everyone looks after their th and you have better opportunities to revenge.

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For one, yeah... the way I use big words like that can sound like I'm full of myself. The irony is, I kind of hate myself, rather than like myself too much. Actually, I hate my depression that is screwing up my life, but that's my own personal problem and not part of the topic. Can't even blame the lack of tone of voice on the way the text 'feels', it is just easy for it to come off that way. So Basicly, thanks for pointing that out. It is one of the few things I keep track. I try not to make unpleasant to read text, because it is so eay for it to derail the topic with people getting insulted with how you say something, than what you say.

As for selfish game behavior in CoC, I wouldn't expect players to act in any other way :p If they didn't, I'd be questioning thier sanity. lol It is all but totaly based on that. I see someone else with something I can take, take it, and then want to keep others from doing the same to me. It's the game mechanics that makes it all fun for everyone playing.

I really should have picked a different word than 'farming', because the word is used for a kind of raiding, as well as a (selfish) base design to help improve loot protection. But, can't change that now. Thread title is what it is. I'm referring to mostly the Town Hall exposed bases, which may gives too easy a shield, and people too easy access to trophies. Farming raids is not what this thread is meant to be about.

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Originally Posted by k2aries

I'm wondering how you know what the developers "intended" when they made this game? And I can't even comment on how you think that "flawed human nature" has messed up this game for you. I'm just speechless.

There are plenty of other "games who must not be named" out there that have failed spectacularly on their shield and loot calculations. The SC devs have done an amazing job on this game, as reflected in its concept and subsequent updates and tweaks.

It just sounds to me that you play the game a certain way and it confuses/upsets/annoys you that others don't. There is no one right way to play this game. I will never agree that farming is a way that people exploit the game. I now understand why you asked for no drama or rants. Sorry I couldn't comply :cool:

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"Intended to be played" is reading how the game should be played, which in the case of Town Halls, should be protected. It says so in the info screen. And you have my intended message backwards. I was not wanting to say that human nature is flawed. It is what it is, and any apparent flaw is from the person's own preconceptions of how things should be. I am saying that the game design just does not fit well with human nature, and it needs to be fixed, if they want the game to be played as they (Supercell) originally intended. Human nature is hard to predict, and one can't make a 'perfect' game, let alone a perfect game on the first try.

So all of this to me is understandable. A game will have flaws, because something unpredictable comes up when released to the market. All I want is for them to do what they have been attempting on doing, improve the game. And one thing I wish they would work on is the annoying flaw that causes people to expose town halls to attack.

And no, doesn't seem too rant-y to me. So you are fine, and honest, and canned, which is what I like and want. :)

I think you're questioning a much bigger concept here, that has to do with bigger things outside of clash. Also, I think the game creators knew that they were doing when they created the game, and would have changed it after a YEAR or so of gameplay if they thought the concept of "farming" in their game was not what they wanted.

I tend to get a little annoyed when it is suggested there is a 'right' or 'wrong' way to play. The game has many routes you can take and just because people think their way is the 'best' and more people take their route doesn't mean theirs is right and the others wrong. You did actually state something similar, but i feel you became a bit of a hypocrite. I will agree the revenge button is a joke, but rectifying it willl be quite complicated.

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Originally Posted by dbolg22

I think you're questioning a much bigger concept here, that has to do with bigger things outside of clash. Also, I think the game creators knew that they were doing when they created the game, and would have changed it after a YEAR or so of gameplay if they thought the concept of "farming" in their game was not what they wanted.

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You are giving too much credit to Supercell. Murphy's law can and will make itself known. They had a good idea on what they were doing, but not everything goes to plan. Rarely anything goes perfectly to plan. I have many war log replays in my clan attesting to that. And just because they haven't fixed it in years, doesn't mean they meant to keep it in that long, let alone plan for such a thing to be in the game. I can't recall any in-game message saying it is OK to have your Town Hall exposed to attack, so you could get benefits from a shield. Farming raids is a different story, and different topic.

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Originally Posted by Keepo

I tend to get a little annoyed when it is suggested there is a 'right' or 'wrong' way to play. The game has many routes you can take and just because people think their way is the 'best' and more people take their route doesn't mean theirs is right and the others wrong. You did actually state something similar, but i feel you became a bit of a hypocrite. I will agree the revenge button is a joke, but rectifying it willl be quite complicated.

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I know what you mean. The only thing 'right or wrong' that I'm talking about is how people do a totaly counterintuitive thing, and let thier Town Hall be attacked, when all indications in game tells you not to. I actually like how there are many ways to go about things in this game, and would never want that changed. I have a habit of being annoyed by 'you should do this or that' as well, and being talked down to like I 'need to be taught a lesson'. I will take advice, but how it is said is important.

How am I a hypocrite? You might want to look up the definition of that before throwing that word around, because despite slipping up at times with how I say things, I am self conscious of how I try to give advice and tell people how to do things. And this thread is looking for a solution to a long standing problem with gameplay, not telling people they are wrong and stupid for having a farming base.

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Originally Posted by Jay147

It usually goes hand in hand right 😜

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But they are not the same thing. Some farmers like to put th outside but some put it inside. Also not everyone that has an outside th is a farmer. Havent tried to read the thread properly since such basic things have been misspecified.

While Farming was not the origional intention of the game if SC wanted to stop it they should have did it earlier, at this point farming is a big part of the game to the point that trying to get rid of it can be detrimental to the game.

I agree with the multiple arguments presented here, and don't have a solution or a proposition myself. HOWEVER... I would like to point out to anyone saying that "If SC wanted to fix it they would have done it already", that your statement is potentially false. Just because they may not be talking about it or changing anything directly does not mean that SC is not considering changes to help repel farming/TH sniping. Also, the issue at hand could be so complicated that even SC is having trouble deciphering a solution. And before you freak out and start calling me names like all forum members do at one point or another, I "farm" and TH snipe all the time. That's my preferred method of playing because it protects my loot and my defenses are well-upgraded so that only TH10's can 2 star me. I am not picking a side, I just think that the presented "problem" could take many trial-and-errors before a solution or alternative could be found. I don't personally think that farming/TH sniping is an issue, but I could see through experience why it's frustrating on occasion and why it causes digression from the original or "intended" design of the game.

I get where you're coming from. I myself started a post with this..about never been able to revenge. But thinking about..how many times you press next now when searching for a base to raid. Now imagine what it would be like if there were an extra 50% ish bases available

It's no secret that th10's economy is just about in the state of famine. Th9 isn't terrible, not what th8 was but certainly not as dry as th10. I think a possible solution could be decrease in percentage of training times for troops and spells at higher TH levels/ higher leagues, a greater percentage of storages that are "lootable" at higher TH levels (such as th10s having an increase in their "lootable" storages up to 40% or so, and lower percentages than that but higher than currently offered for th9 storages. But another solution could be more "free loot" (for lack of a better term) such as the "free loot" gained from league bonuses (not technically stolen from your opponent). For this to work, there would need to be a league bonus implemented for DEFENSIVE WINS; but picture this: a new method of calculating amounts of loot gained or lost. If the attacker takes the TH, then that serves as a "multipler" for his loot raided (let's say a 10% multipler), meaning that if, for example, the attacker raids and takes down the TH and loots 200k, 200k, and 500de, then the TH multipler would give the attacker a "free" 20k, 20k, and 50de in addition to the league bonus. However if the defender gets raided and, even if they give up a star for 50% destruction, if they successfully defend their TH, then they get a small percentage of resources back from their loss (which would not come from the attackers winnings, but rather in the form of "free" loot, kind of along the lines of a defensive win bonus). Let's, for example, call it a 15% TH defend bonus. Therefore, if you successfully defend your TH but lose 100k, 100k, and 100de, then you receive a defensive bonus of 15k, 15k, and 15de while you're oppenent still receives his loot raided in full. Also I like the idea of giving a shorter shield time to those that only lose their TH on defense with less than 40% destruction or so. I like that in addition to my idea to help give more reward and incentive for properly defending one's TH the way people do in wars.

Sorry for the novel. But it was just an idea. I don't post often, but as a basically maxed th9 looking ahead to the future, I really want things fixed for th10s' economy. Properly defending one's TH might just help in that department if something like this were implemented.

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Originally Posted by TheScavenger350

Farming is part of the game. It is a strategy that lots of people, including I, use. If people want to farm, then let them farm. If you don't like farmers, then tough, deal with it.

Supercell is not going to remove shields, it would be an awful idea and I would lose all of my dark elixir due to zappers using lightning spells on my storage. You wouldn't be able to push trophies as easily, and this means less loot, because less people will be able to climb to a decent trophy level to farm.

No offence, but I would literally quit the game if this was implemented. I would constantly have my dark elixir taken from me. This would encourage people to use a third-party programme to have their accounts stay online forever, which isn't a good thing.

I will criticise your idea, because it needs to be. Terrible threads like this just need to be deleted, and just think about the consequences of this that I have mentioned. Before you post, don't just think of the good parts of your idea.

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I couldn't agree more.

Comments like to OP just make me think the person who posted it is playing the wrong game.

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Originally Posted by cdunn47

It's no secret that th10's economy is just about in the state of famine. Th9 isn't terrible, not what th8 was but certainly not as dry as th10.

I think a possible solution could be decrease in percentage of training times for troops and spells at higher TH levels/ higher leagues, a greater percentage of storages that are "lootable" at higher TH levels (such as th10s having an increase in their "lootable" storages up to 40% or so, and lower percentages than that but higher than currently offered for th9 storages.

But another solution could be more "free loot" (for lack of a better term) such as the "free loot" gained from league bonuses (not technically stolen from your opponent). For this to work, there would need to be a league bonus implemented for DEFENSIVE WINS; but picture this: a new method of calculating amounts of loot gained or lost. If the attacker takes the TH, then that serves as a "multipler" for his loot raided (let's say a 10% multipler), meaning that if, for example, the attacker raids and takes down the TH and loots 200k, 200k, and 500de, then the TH multipler would give the attacker a "free" 20k, 20k, and 50de in addition to the league bonus.

However if the defender gets raided and, even if they give up a star for 50% destruction, if they successfully defend their TH, then they get a small percentage of resources back from their loss (which would not come from the attackers winnings, but rather in the form of "free" loot, kind of along the lines of a defensive win bonus). Let's, for example, call it a 15% TH defend bonus. Therefore, if you successfully defend your TH but lose 100k, 100k, and 100de, then you receive a defensive bonus of 15k, 15k, and 15de while you're oppenent still receives his loot raided in full.

Also I like the idea of giving a shorter shield time to those that only lose their TH on defense with less than 40% destruction or so. I like that in addition to my idea to help give more reward and incentive for properly defending one's TH the way people do in wars.

Sorry for the novel. But it was just an idea. I don't post often, but as a basically maxed th9 looking ahead to the future, I really want things fixed for th10s' economy. Properly defending one's TH might just help in that department if something like this were implemented.

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Paragraphs helps, which I added as best I could.

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Something just occurred to me. There is a mint of loot literally sunk down into the lowest trophy count range, while there almost nothing in the higher range. This is off topic to a degree, but the Inactive Mode for bases, where it collects some loot in storages, it could raise thier trophy count from failed raids, and add more bases to the mix higher up. Anyway, doubt it would work that easily based on my thread about it, but just a thought.

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Nice to see some people that do farming give some good opinions on the subject. :)

Going to have to re-read some of this. A bit busy in real life to get it all right now.

If there's a flaw in the game, it's that they introduced trophies below TH10. If you don't have a maxed TH10 base, what's the purpose of them?

Farm on.

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Originally Posted by Megalomania

If there's a flaw in the game, it's that they introduced trophies below TH10. If you don't have a maxed TH10 base, what's the purpose of them?

Farm on.

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Indeed. Farming isn't bad for the game... it is the game.

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Originally Posted by MikeFromOz

Indeed. Farming isn't bad for the game... it is the game.

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Really? Farming isnt the only way forward, as i tried to explain earlier

Just kidding I'm being a drama queen right now

I'm likely making a new thread. I picked the wrong word. I mean 'farming base' as in exposed Town Hall for easy shield, and not the other aspects of farming. Already, I feel like the current posts are TL-DR for people jumping in now, and we only talked about just the basics, and hardly anything if addressing the issue.

Before I do, if someone could make up a better term to use for the next thread's title, that'd be great.

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Originally Posted by WarrenJames

I'm likely making a new thread. I picked the wrong word. I mean 'farming base' as in exposed Town Hall for easy shield, and not the other aspects of farming. Already, I feel like the current posts are TL-DR for people jumping in now, and we only talked about just the basics, and hardly anything if addressing the issue.

Before I do, if someone could make up a better term to use for the next thread's title, that'd be great.

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This topic doesn't need another thread.... whatever you decide to call it.

Warren, I'm new here and already it really looks like you make thread after thread complaining about something. Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought the idea of this subforum was to share ideas to improve things. Not gripe in multiple threads about the same issue over and over.

There would be no point in the game, Point Blank Period!

Its great for supersell but not so great for anyone who cant afford thousands worth of gems to build a base.

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Originally Posted by MikeFromOz

This topic doesn't need another thread.... whatever you decide to call it.

Warren, I'm new here and already it really looks like you make thread after thread complaining about something. Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought the idea of this subforum was to share ideas to improve things. Not gripe in multiple threads about the same issue over and over.

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Yes, I went from a complaint to, 'why is that?' But yeah, it is to to share ideas, which besides sharing points of view, hardly anyone shared any idea on how they would like to fix it.

My mistake was to ask farmers on how to fix what seems like a clear error to anyone from the outside looking in. My assumption was to ask the people with the farming base what could be done to fix it, since I had thier gaming pleasure in mind while wanting to figure out a remidy. My error: asking people for a fix to something that they themselves have no real demaind to have fixed at all in the first place! In the inventing field, that is a no-go. You fail trying to do that. If there is no demaind, it doesn't matter how good your invention is, it will flop.

This thread has flopped. If you guys want to keep the farming base, fine, keep it. It is clear you don't want the help. The problem is likely too old and ingrained to be fixed now anyway, with people seeing it as the norm.

Having the thread closed now, so it can die in peace.