*Proof* of why snipers are damaging the economy

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Originally Posted by Nyxiggon

The only two times that raiding provides a net benefit to the economy are:
Raiding Inactive bases -
They are not using their loot, therefore, this is essentially being re-added to the economy. However, it has been suspected by many that Supercell has reduced the number of inactive bases available to be raided. This, I'm not too sure on. I see hundreds of completely inactive bases every day - it's just that most of these inactive bases have super low level collectors, and therefore, I cannot profitably raid them anyways.
War Win / League Bonuses -
Other than collectors, these are genuinely the only other repeatable sources of income. They are much more potent since the buffs ♥♥ gave to them, and now, can be considered as a major source of income.

Here are some facts about why making active/storage base raiding the only way of obtaining resources are flawed:

• Army costs to 2 or 3 star a well upgraded TH9 or TH10 are crazy high
• Spell Costs to 2 or 3 star a well upgraded TH9/10 are crazy high
• Training time for a large army is extremely long
• Creation time for spells is extremely long

On top of that, think of the following:
If I have one of those exceptionally expensive armies, and use 5 expensive spells, and I raid a full storage base, all I am effectively doing is shifting resources from one active player to another, minus the cost of nexting, minus the time it took to create the army, minus the cost in elixer and DE to create the army. In the long run, this does not speed up either of our abilities to upgrade our base.

In addition, I also incur trap re-arm, xbow re-arm, and inferno tower re-arm costs upon my victim. All those resources are straight up *lost*, never to be seen again.


In order for you to make raiding active players effective, here are the changes that would need to happen:
Nexting costs would need to be effectively eliminated. You can do this by either completely eliminating them, or by putting filters on search so that non-profitable bases are eliminated from the queue.
Army training times would need to be driven way, way down. Who wants to play a game once every 45 to 60 minutes? For a maximum of 3 minutes? Nobody, that's who.
Army costs would need to be driven way down. This would have many, many consequences and would be a balancing nightmare, imo~.
Spell training times would need to be quartered, or reduced even more drastically. If I need at least 2-3 spells to 2-3 star a TH9/10, and that's the only way to profitably raid, well, don't you want me playing your game more? Spell training times and army training times should BOTH be balanced to be in line with one another.


If you think removing sniping will "fix" the loot problems, I think you just haven't really thought through the long term consequences of what that will actually mean.

The solution will come in the form of increasing passive production (new collector levels for TH9, TH10), and increasing the found loot (league bonuses).

War is where you should be using big armies trying for 2 to 3 stars. Unless we completely overhaul army cost and training time, it will never make sense to farm using bigger armies.

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Lol, such an elaborate post, and he still completely misses the point. Even after pages of posts explaining this phenomenon prior to him posting.

Why do Nexting costs need to be eliminated? B/c you're Nexting too much over dismal bases due to all the high-loot bases getting sniped out of the queue b/c the league bonus reward for sniping a TH is just as substantial as if you 3-starred it?

So you want to remove Nexting costs. Ok. And this will reduce Nexting time that so many players hate... how? People will have no incentive to stop Nexting until they find a stacked base. This will not only take every exposed TH out of the queue, but further reduce the amount of high loot bases that are even left as is. You have effectively removed the risk of Nexting, and the player who can forfeit the most time hitting that Next button a grueling amount of times becomes the most profitable farmer. You think it's bad now playing Clash of "Nexts?" Remove the Next cost and see how absolutely tiresome this game will become.

Drive down army training times/costs as well as spell training times/costs? So basically make the cheapest troops even cheaper and faster to build, which are the troops players will still use as they are trying to optimize their resource netting. You're taking one of Supercell's cash-generating features--allowing players to use gems to speed up barracks/spell factory cook times--and removing it from them. Excellent idea. A+.

No, you can make raiding other active players (with the option of using more expensive troops) profitable by increasing the league bonuses. But not even remotely in the fashion you said. "just increase the league bonuses." That will lead to an even lower threshold where TH sniping will be prevalent.

You increase the league bonuses again, but those bonuses are only fully obtainable with a 2-star attack.

1-stars are rewarded based on the % of damage dealt. Did you snipe that player's TH? Neat, you gave them a free shield and you got yourself 1/3rd of the available trophies, that's a win for you and for them. You also got paid out 2% of the available league bonus because you chose to do that type of attack instead of going for at the minimum a 50% 2-star, which would pay you the full amount of this increased league bonus. But that's fine because it didn't really cost you any time or troops to do so, and we're not allowing those kinds of attacks to be the main form of farming anymore.

Maybe you hit a base with a protected TH b/c it had a good amount of loot in the storages, but you came up short of taking down the TH and got a 65% 1-star. Sure you went in and got some of the storages, but you get paid 65% of the league bonus. That's the risk/reward of going for 2 stars. You can get paid in full for a 50% 2-star while it's possible to get less from the league bonus for a 98% 1-star. But if you pulled off that last TH building, you'd go from getting 98% of the bonus to the full bonus PLUS a multiplier that is applied to it.

Boom. Now Supercell has just added a whole new exciting dynamic to raiding/farming with a simple reform of the league bonus system, while simultaneously removing TH sniping as a form of farming.

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Originally Posted by duramaxin

I understand why he has his th outside, to get a shield. Why do you think I don't know that? What do you not understand about being a hypocrite? I have no problem with you leaving your th but don't come on the forum and complain about the snipers. Why are you name calling now? Have I gotten to you? Does my valid arguement make you upset? Just answer this, because you still haven't. If you're so against snipers then why isn't your th protected? It's as simple as that. Don't respond saying that's how the game works, you sound like broken record with that line. If youre really against something why would you do something to promote it? Even if you still disagree which I don't care..stop pointing your finger at the snipers and point it at yourself. In your opinion snipers are a problem. But it's not a single sided problem. It's a double sided problem. Try to understand bud

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Where in the OP does it say he has a problem with being sniped?
He wants to protect his loot, so he puts his th out because that's the most effective way to do so. However what he noticed is that such an action 'hides' a lot of loot thus ruining the economy for everyone. What on earth do you not understand about that? The fact that th sniping hides loot doesn't suddenly make anyone put their own th in, as you would have to be incredibly stupid to do so.

That being said the OP is refuted by the fact that loot bonus created by snipers more than makes up for it. Also the OP dichotomises sniping and outside ths, but imo they should be seen as a single entity.

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Originally Posted by Gama321

He wants to protect his loot, so he puts his th out because that's the most effective way to do so. However what he noticed is that such an action 'hides' a lot of loot thus ruining the economy for everyone.

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Interesting logic there.

Ummmm yall still talking about this!
Oh crud I just hit submit...

I can't help but feel this discussion is hurt by having to constantly rewrite explanations for everyone who couldn't be bothered to read. It's a forum, if you don't like reading you're in the wrong place. And feel free to disagree with points being made, but as this is actually a higher level discussion of game mechanics, replies that amount to nothing more than "TH Inside is dumb lulz" or "You can't make me stop sniping bro" are worthless spam replies.

There are certainly a few gems though :)

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Originally Posted by duramaxin

I understand why he has his th outside, to get a shield. Why do you think I don't know that? What do you not understand about being a hypocrite? I have no problem with you leaving your th but don't come on the forum and complain about the snipers. Why are you name calling now? Have I gotten to you? Does my valid arguement make you upset? Just answer this, because you still haven't. If you're so against snipers then why isn't your th protected? It's as simple as that. Don't respond saying that's how the game works, you sound like broken record with that line. If youre really against something why would you do something to promote it? Even if you still disagree which I don't care..stop pointing your finger at the snipers and point it at yourself. In your opinion snipers are a problem. But it's not a single sided problem. It's a double sided problem. Try to understand bud

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Oh I have a very good response to that. I don't protect my TH b/c there is no reason to do so given the constraints of the game. I would have to re-arm my traps and xbows/ITs. Supercell doesn't offer league bonuses for defensive wins, so this is entirely resource-negative. On the chance that I "won" my defense, I would still most likely lose a considerable amount from my storages, plus I'd be vulnerable to more attacks, now with defused traps and no cc troops. And even if I won defensively, trophies have little to no value as they can easily be recovered offensively. Also, being up in a higher league I could guarantee that I will only take 1-star losses from TH snipes all day, as opposed to possibly winning some defenses, but most likely getting hit for a 1-star anyway. The difference is that I'm taking a 1-star loss involving a great deal of lost storage resources, rather than a simple snipe.

Now a common theme here is that I am forced to play this way b/c of how Supercell designed the game. The way league bonuses are paid out, the lack of defensive rewards, how shields are given, when all of these are factored together, you are left with keeping your TH outside your base for defense otherwise you look like a fool.

I'd also like to point out that my problem does not lie with TH snipers--which you happen to be throwing 100% of your argument against me into--but with Supercell rewarding TH snipes exactly the same way as a 3-star victory. How could you blame TH snipers from doing what they do, given that Supercell's outdated league bonus system is set up to benefit that exact form of behavior over any other form of raiding.

If Supercell introduced defensive league bonus wins, and they were enough for the league I was in to warrant me protecting my TH, I'd probably do it. If Supercell reformed the league bonus system so that a 2% 1-star TH snipe only offered 2% of the league bonus, I would be inclined to look for a base either offering a great deal of storage loot, as well as one I feel I could get both the TH and 50% at a minimum (who would ever choose to simply snipe a 400k/400k base, instead of trying to get some of those storages in addition to earning the full league bonus with a 2-star attack under those circumstances?).

With the constraints currently provided by Supercell, there is not one single incentive to do so. That's why I'm pushing for it to be fixed.

it's also damaging the ladder system
How is it possible a th8 lvl 60 ranking at 4000
It's because of sniping.


Sniping also make less village available, creating cloud and resulting in a gap in trophee at higher level when you are searching.

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Originally Posted by Gama321

Where in the OP does it say he has a problem with being sniped?
He wants to protect his loot, so he puts his th out because that's the most effective way to do so. However what he noticed is that such an action 'hides' a lot of loot thus ruining the economy for everyone. What on earth do you not understand about that? The fact that th sniping hides loot doesn't suddenly make anyone put their own th in, as you would have to be incredibly stupid to do so.

That being said the OP is refuted by the fact that loot bonus created by snipers more than makes up for it. Also the OP dichotomises sniping and outside ths, but imo they should be seen as a single entity.

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I believe the move that duramaxin pulled there would be referred to a strawman, lol.

Yeah, it would seem pretty hypocritical of me to be sniping THs and offering my TH up for others to snipe if at the same time I was condemning the TH snipers for what they're doing. The problem with his accusation is that he's having me defend a stance that I never made.

But regarding the league bonus offsetting the loot hidden by snipers, I have to strongly disagree. I understand that a TH snipe involves very little, if any, resources expended in order to bring in game-generated resources (the league bonus). From a macro scale, this increases ("improves") the overall economy. There is no denying that, to try and do so would require me to be willfully ignorant of how the macro-economy works in general. But this is entirely different from it being bad for the game.

The consequences of all these TH snipes are that bases both with little and large stores of loot are taken out of the matchmaking queue. They are no longer available to other raiders, and causes the amount of Nexting required to find a viable base to hit to increase. And then as you've probably read from the previous posts, it just reinforces the vicious cycle of making more and more players have to adapt and use cheap troops, now they too have to go for the cheapest form of farming, etc, etc. (I'm not gonna repeat myself in full, haha)

If Supercell were to reform the league bonus system, they could effectively remove TH snipes as a form of farming. It could also be done with little to no effect on the macro-economy. Of course they would need to increase league bonuses again, but they would only be fully earned from 2-star attacks. And then 3-stars have a multiplier applied to them which would flatten the higher up in leagues you go, as the league bonus face value increases pretty substantially up there.

From a micro scale, what we would see are bases with exposed THs not being hit for just their TH with the exception of players who want to increase/maintain their trophy range. I would suspect an equilibrium would be hit where bases with exposed THs and very little loot would be sniped away using an AQ or a few archers, while exposed TH bases with large loots being hit for at least 2 stars and going for storages. It fundamentally changes the dynamic of how people will raid, expanding the options for farming and having higher potential rewards for greater attacks.

If you think it's ruining the clash economy, then stick you th inside

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Originally Posted by Goobers

But regarding the league bonus offsetting the loot hidden by snipers, I have to strongly disagree. I understand that a TH snipe involves very little, if any, resources expended in order to bring in game-generated resources (the league bonus). From a macro scale, this increases ("improves") the overall economy. There is no denying that, to try and do so would require me to be willfully ignorant of how the macro-economy works in general. But this is entirely different from it being bad for the game.

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The problems with all the so-called solutions to it is that they are too extreme and would fundamentally change the game. Of course you can say that the current way isn't ideal, but I very much doubt they will change it unless they think it through to avoid any potential solutions from breaking the game