Idea to fix the Elixir-Wall-Loot Problem

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Originally Posted by Scuba061

Wow. I don't CARE about building walls twice as fast. It's obvious you didn't read a single thing I wrote. It's total stupidity to have a feature that grows more and more impractical as you advance. Not to mention something requiring more elixir for an identical upgrade as you advance.

You act like everyone has max walls and everyone can dump elixir into high level walls. They can't. If they could, how about you explain to me why such a minuscule percentage of players have L10 walls or higher AFTER 3 months with the full elixir upgrade??? Very, very few players ever get those walls because it's too much of a grind even with using elixir.

And thank you for mentioning that those TH9 players will eventually get to the point of excess. It will take awhile... If they ever get there. You act like every TH9 has the ability to dump elixir at any point. If a player thinks it's too hard to farm gold for skulls at TH8, then they're very likely going to struggle at TH9.

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If we assume that there will never be a TH11, and there will never be L12 walls, then we have plenty of options for fixing the elixir walls. My preferred solution is actually just to give the L9 walls to TH8's. The next best solution (imho) is to make L9 walls gold-only again (regardless of whether we give them to TH8). Goobers' suggestion (or a similar variation) is my next best option. Finally, my next best option is to make elixir walls more expensive than gold walls (not a reserve, but actually increase the price). Either tack a flat 1M on the price of walls purchased with elixir, or come up with some kind of sliding scale.

But I like to assume that there will be a TH11 and L12 walls some day. And when that day comes, Goobers' idea is the one that survives it best, without any modifications. Whatever the new lootable max is at TH11, that would be the reserve. Let's say 8% limit and 500k cap means 6.25M max, and let's assume they make L12 storages with 3M for a total of 12M. Then L12 walls at 5M a pop would require 11.25M in storage.

BTW, I suppose the best option is for Supercell to give high level players a true end-game for elixir, much like walls are an end-game for gold.

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Originally Posted by Scuba061

I really get a chuckle being called selfish when you guys want an economy with limitless elixir available. Not to mention the fact that I'm open to raising the limit to L10 which would most certainly NOT benefit me.

All of this is pointless anyway. This "solution" will NEVER happen. Ever. So go ahead and berate others and call others stupid til you're blue in the face. You guys have joined the elite ranks of all the whiners thinking they'll ever do anything to directly nerf the Lightning spell for zapping. Won't ever happen.

Good day to you, gentlemen.

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I wouldn't say that it will "never" happen. I doubt it'll happen. I know it definitely won't happen if we don't flesh out the details, because I doubt Supercell cares enough to flesh out the details themselves, when simpler options are available.

In order of likeliness to occur (my opinion):
1. Keep things as is (L9 and up available with elixir)
2. Make L9 walls gold only again (keep L10 and L11 elixir walls available)
3. Make L9 walls available at TH8
4. Make elixir walls available below level 9, but make the price in elixir more expensive
5. Give TH8-TH10 players more stuff to spend elixir on
6. Other solutions? For example, making elixir walls lock up a builder for some period of time?
7. Still other solutions??? I've seen quite a few suggestions
8. Goobers' suggestion.

So yes, it's last on my list of things that I think Supercell might actually do. Which begs the question of why I bother to spend so much time defending it, and why you bother to spend so much time attacking it.

I guess part of the reason I spend time defending it is because it involves math, and I like math. I also used to write video games and create levels for Half Life and Quake back in the 1990's, so I'm interesting in game design and game balance. If you've followed the conversation closely enough, surely you've seen that I don't like the "precision" of Goobers' suggestion, such as a TH8 reserve price of 2,142,857 elixir, rather than some nice round number like 2,000,000. So it's not the greatest idea since sliced cheese. But I do recognize that it's the most objective. It's at least a starting point for discussion.

Which brings us to the question of why you fight it so vehemently. You and Goobers and I (and others) have gotten quite heated in this discussion/debate/argument, so I suppose a part of it is just basic human emotion. Anyway, I can tell that we're both tired of getting worked up and frustrated and flat out mad, so let's take a moment to sit back and remember that we're all (hopefully) on the same team here: we want the elixir walls fixed in a way that's good for the game overall, not just good for TH8's or just for TH10's.

PS: Yes, I realize that Goobers' idea is about as convoluted as a lightning rod for elixir storages only. I don't think that will happen, but I won't say that'll never happen either. The difference here is that DE zapping is a psychological issue (it pisses people off), but from a game balance perspective, I think it's neutral at worst, and probably good for the game. (I think it was very good for the game when TH7's didn't have a drill.) On the other hand, I think that elixir walls are bad for the game. Maybe not as bad as when they were available down at TH7 (or was it TH6?). But I still think that they are bad for the game in their current implementation. Which is why we're still discussing how to fix them.

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Originally Posted by Xitra

If we assume that there will never be a TH11, and there will never be L12 walls, then we have plenty of options for fixing the elixir walls. My preferred solution is actually just to give the L9 walls to TH8's. The next best solution (imho) is to make L9 walls gold-only again (regardless of whether we give them to TH8). Goobers' suggestion (or a similar variation) is my next best option. Finally, my next best option is to make elixir walls more expensive than gold walls (not a reserve, but actually increase the price). Either tack a flat 1M on the price of walls purchased with elixir, or come up with some kind of sliding scale.

But I like to assume that there will be a TH11 and L12 walls some day. And when that day comes, Goobers' idea is the one that survives it best, without any modifications. Whatever the new lootable max is at TH11, that would be the reserve. Let's say 8% limit and 500k cap means 6.25M max, and let's assume they make L12 storages with 3M for a total of 12M. Then L12 walls at 5M a pop would require 11.25M in storage.

BTW, I suppose the best option is for Supercell to give high level players a true end-game for elixir, much like walls are an end-game for gold.

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A new TH level only widens the gap further, making it more impractical. A TH11 would now need 6.75M for a single 500k wall! That's absurd. What you guys aren't understanding is that the price of L10 and 11 walls is the natural cap protector itself. Even with elixir to use, it's still prohibitive to attain for most players because the grind to 750m in total resources is something most are unwilling or unable to do because it will almost certainly require builder idle time. Frankly, walls are a low priority to most people because why spend months on a boring wall grind when you could upgrade to TH10 and get inferno towers and L7 troops?

I'll say it again. I think it's fine at L9. However, I certainly get the argument that it's too low since 1M for walls still isn't that difficult. So the simple and easy solution is to just up the limit. There's logical sense to that, hence I'd be all for it. It's far more sustainable because I'm not understanding how a new TH level all of a sudden makes L10 walls more affordable or attractive to players.

Thank you for the honest assessment, Xitra. Given how we're on the same page as to the validity of this idea, I'm not sure why you're giving me such a hard time, unless you're misunderstanding my motivations.

Would you agree that prior to the initial update that elixir was a devalued resource at all TH levels? That is was overly abundant? If so, this update made sense because something needed to be done to increase the value of elixir. Where I do agree with Goobers is that unfortunately it was handled poorly. SC underestimated the ease of access it gave to TH8s to skull walls. Many predicted it accurately. I still felt this was a far better alternative than outright cutting wall prices which I vehemently argued against.

It will take some time for the economy to catch back up. So all I argue that is to give this rollback time to take effect. The source of the elixir drain has been cut off by taking away elixir at L8 walls. So now the tens of thousands of players who would've gotten L8 walls will probably never get them now. That ultimately prevents them from dumping elixir into L9 walls. Give it time. If it still sucks for TH10s, just raise the limit again. Easy, no hassle solution.

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Originally Posted by Xitra

Sorry to burst your bubble, but your complaint still sounds like you want elixir walls solely for the purpose of being able to buy walls twice as fast. You're still missing the point!!!

At TH8, you run out of things to spend elixir on pretty early on, so it makes it pretty obvious that you will have excess elixir at TH8.

But let's look at TH9 from the point of view of gold-only walls. Even if you do have a ton of elixir upgrades to do, eventually they run out. When they do, guess what?? You still have the better part of a billion gold to spend on wall upgrades, and nothing left to spend elixir on (except big armies).

For those who insist on upgrading walls before upgrading their TH, TH9 is just as bad as TH8 (again, assuming gold-only walls).

In either situation, you will need far more gold than elixir. So, the end result is that you will be sitting on overflowing elixir storages for more than half the time you're at that TH level.

Solution? Elixir walls. But only when the elixir is truly in excess. If you're still working on elixir upgrades, then it isn't really excess elixir yet, so you're simply not ready to start buying walls with elixir yet. Maybe the occasional wall because you have the elixir and you're about to buy a defensive (gold) upgrade, and you won't have a free builder for a few days, so you might as well. But again, only because it's excess. Dump all the gold you want, but only excess elixir.

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Geez, now you're having the quoting errors with just a slab of blank space. I really need to update my software as I can't see how 3 separate posters could possibly be making the same error within the same thread.

AnyHOOT, from your post, it sounds like someone is trying to rest his or her entire case on some incorrect assumption that TH8s all constantly have no need for elixir in terms of upgrades, while TH9s have this mythical world where the elixir-upgraded buildings are limitless. This means that apparently TH9s who have been stockpiling elixir are always just waiting to use it on some never-ending builder-required upgrades, while TH8s are stockpiling that elixir with no use for it.

Strange, as I completed all my necessary builder-required elixir upgrades within the first month with my TH9 (army camps, spell factory, lab, DE drill/storage), and finished the others by the second month, even though I didn't really have a need to do those.

Did I finish all my necessary TH8 elixir upgrades (lab, DE drill(s), storage) within the first week or two at TH8? Sure, but I also only spent 6 weeks at TH8. I was at TH9 for 5 months, with 3 (and arguably, 4) of those months with no dire need for massive elixir stores. And even if I had stayed to take the time to max all my defenses at TH8, or TH9, leaving me with longer periods of time with no need for elixir, that wouldn't validate my individual situation as to override someone else's who decided to have a premmie-rush type progression.

Not that I saw you state this Xitra, but what if you were to propose that this is a bad idea b/c what if players still do have some elixir upgrades to do while working on walls? Like as if to say that they essentially have to farm 4.5M elixir to do one measly skull wall, dump all of their elixir into the upgrade, and then have to accumulate another 4.5M elixir just to do it one more time?! Isn't that insane?

Hold up, no it's not, b/c what it's really costing them 4.5M elixir to do is to purchase a wall in addition to a 4M elixir upgrade, which is sending them to 0. If they are done with those big upgrades, or they decide that they don't want to do a last level barracks or dark barracks upgrade, then they aren't bringing their elixir all the way down, and they go from 4.5M to 4M. This leads to them having to farm a RIDICULOUS... 500,000 elixir to do another skull wall that costs, you guessed it: 500,000 elixir.

Well maybe that person doesn't want to have to hold 2.9M elixir first at TH9 or 4M elixir first at TH10 to be eligible to start farming walls with elixir. By golly, it allows them to be hit for up to the maximum amount, and we like to keep both our resource levels low to deter being farmed. Well then I'd say "right they are, it absolutely forces them to hold onto that lootable amount, so long as they're only trying to use it on walls. B/c letting players drop it all into walls is exactly what caused this economy to crash in the first place."

And yes, you're definitely right about getting heated for no real good reason. And for something we both seem to agree that will never happen.

Again, I appreciate the honesty. It would probably be best to not even bother with this. It's grown real tiresome dealing with Goobers' attitude.

So I will be stepping back from this and do my best to avoid these wall threads all together since as you said, what's the point. Happy raidng, Xitra.

What gets me the most about this is how most of the arguments against it essentially stem from the assumption that b/c elixir would need to meet a threshold condition, all of a sudden walls are not able to be upgraded at all. As if the option to use gold is no longer there, and in order to do skull walls that require 500k resources at TH10, the player must have 4.5M elixir, and not 500k gold.

Gold and elixir are not identical, they serve very different purposes, and should be treated as such. This should have become very apparent when the elixir for walls update was first introduced, and the sheer scarcity of elixir caused a fundamental shift in the cost of armies that players could even raid with, not to mention all the players that simply stopped farming. Elixir needs to be plentiful, on a macro level, in order to even play the game.

What you're seeing from certain hypocrites here are that they definitely understand that it needs to be available, which is why they will stand strong behind saying that "using 500k elixir on a wall is too little, while 1M is 'the right amount'." Or even that it might not be, but 3M is. It's the level of the wall that's the source of the problem, and not the manner in which the resource can be spent/drained that causes it. That's their argument.

Well that's a very convenient stance to have when those eligible wall levels aren't available at the THs they're feasting on (TH8s), and they aren't at the TH level (yet) where they must continue to experience what this totally unrestricted system does to their economy.

Scuba, the reason I refuse to engage in any of this with you is b/c you continue to keep grasping at straws, trying to find the slightest thing you can to make this solution ineffective. The moment you resorted to that stupid red herring, misrepresenting what I said as though I suggested farming 1B in resources is easier than farming 125M gold, that's the moment you lost the privilege of having a respectful discussion with me. B/c do you what types of people argue like that? Children, and politicians (who are arguably just giant children). So stop acting like either one, especially now, as you jam your hands into your armpits with a smirk going "Well they're never gonna do it, so- *tongue out*."

The solution is airtight. The math checks out at every single TH, for every level of wall. It uses a non-subjective value as its threshold, established by Supercell itself. It's sustainable. It allows for consistency at every single point of progression, with no room to exploit the system. Does it let players drain all their elixir out of storages through just upgrading walls? No. That's the friggin' point.

I've laid it out to you every which way--north, south, east and west--and have shut down every valid concern you've had where you worry that it may cause a reverse imbalance, etc. I've even dropped down to your level when you got desperate and started spouting nonsense or new problems you had with it which would directly contradict your earlier reasons for not allowing others to have it, even though I was fully aware the sole purpose of you doing that was to derail the conversation. But I'm not going to acknowledge it anymore.