Archer Tower Revision in Latest Update Results in Opposite of Desired Effect

The latest update caused the archer tower to shoot twice as fast, but with half as much damage each shot. The update stated that the revision was done in order to "better take down weak hordes" (i.e., to increase the effectiveness of the archer tower in killing massed barbarians, archers, goblins, or minions).

However, the update has actually resulted in making arch towers WORSE at killing massed weak hordes. Take archers for example. A level 10 archer tower before the update would kill a lvl 5 or 6 archer in 1 hit, and would shoot one shot per second, resulting in a kill rate of 1 archer per second. The same archer tower after the update will now kill the same archer in 2 hits, and will shoot one shot every 0.5 seconds, resulting in a theoretical kill rate of 1 archer per second--identical to the pre-update kill rate. No improvement there. But that’s not even the worst part: in actual game play the kill rate is EVEN worse than the theoretical kill rate, because the archer tower always fires a third shot at the already-dead archer! This means that in actual fact it is taking 3 shots per archer, so the real kill rate in game is 1 archer every 1.5 seconds. So in actuality the revision has made the archer tower less effective against weak hordes.

The same issue arises against other weak troops like barbarians, minions, and goblins, since the archer tower always fires one unnecessary shot at the troop after the troop is already dead.

If Supercell really wants to make the archer tower better against weak hordes, then they need to get rid of this unnecessary last shot fired by the tower.

Great point and so true hopfully the same for loons and minions ie. Making it easier

No, before update they would shoot every second but take about half a second retargeting anyway

incorrect.

The old archer towers shot 2 arrow to kill one archer. because they had shot the second arrow before the archer had died. It was known as 'the dead arrow'

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Originally Posted by Dimechelis

incorrect.

The old archer towers shot 2 arrow to kill one archer. because they had shot the second arrow before the archer had died. It was known as 'the dead arrow'

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Wasn't that only the case if the archer was a certain distance away or something? not sure...

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Originally Posted by Dimechelis

incorrect.

The old archer towers shot 2 arrow to kill one archer. because they had shot the second arrow before the archer had died. It was known as 'the dead arrow'

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I don’t remember that to be true, and unfortunately I don't have any pre-update replays to watch so I cannot check whether what you say is correct. It doesn't sound reasonable to me though--if the tower is shooting once per second, the only reason a second shot would be fired would be if it took an entire second for the first shot to get to its target--while possible, it seems unlikely. Perhaps if the archer was on the very edge of the towers range it might take a whole second for the arrow to get there, but not at closer ranges for sure. After the update, even close range archers get the unnecessary third shot.

Also generalisations like this can't be made as it really depends on the level of the archers and ATs. I have Lvl13 ATs and they can now 1 shot all lvls of archers in half the time.

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Originally Posted by Gama321

No, before update they would shoot every second but take about half a second retargeting anyway

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I do not know what the retargeting time actually was before the update. However, I have not seen anything suggesting that the retargeting time--whatever it actually is--has been changed by the update. So while taking the retargeting time into account would affect the kills-per-second statistic, it would affect the pre-update and post-update rate equally, and thus would in effect cancel out. Thus ultimate conclusion that archer towers now kill archers slower would still be true.

If the AT shoots a last arrow, even to a dead opponent, wouldn't it have done that before? And if so 3 shots at 1.5 sec is better than 2 shots at 2 seconds. Ad those half seconds per archer, it adds up.

You try to say that 3 shoots of 0.5 second (1.5 s) is longer than 2 shoots of 1 second (2.0s) , I'm confused.

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Originally Posted by sj74

Also generalisations like this can't be made as it really depends on the level of the archers and ATs. I have Lvl13 ATs and they can now 1 shot all lvls of archers in half the time.

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You are correct that for very high level ATs they are still capable of 1-shotting archers after the update. However, I think that most players do not have lvl 13 ATs yet. You could also say that a level 10 AT could 1-shot kill a lvl 1 arch, but that is simply not a reaslistic situation, since people who have lvl 1 arch simply do not attack people who have lvl 10 ATs.

Moreover, your AT will still fire an unnessary 2nd shot at the archer, resulting in the same kill rate you had before (1 archer per second)--so still not really an improvement.

Well you dorgot to mention, heal spells/healers are now even more OP as archers and barbs whilst in them being hit by archer towers. As AT's can't 1 shot anymore.

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Originally Posted by AxionXD

If the AT shoots a last arrow, even to a dead opponent, wouldn't it have done that before? And if so 3 shots at 1.5 sec is better than 2 shots at 2 seconds. Ad those half seconds per archer, it adds up.

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IF the ATs before update did in fact should 2 shots per archer, then yes, the update would make the kill rate better since, as you say, 3 shots at 1.5 seconds is better than 2 shots at 2 seconds.

However, I do not think that ATs before update did in fact take two shots at each archer (at least not always...perhaps at very long distances).

The explanation for why an unnessary shot would be fired post-update but not pre-update is that the time between shots has decreased. The reason an unnessary shot would be fired is that the previously fired shot is still in the air (has not hit the target yet) when the AT decides to shoot the next shot. If the AT is shooting every 0.5 seconds (post-update), then it is very likely for the next shot to be fired while the previous shot is still in the air, hence an unnecessary shot. However, if it takes 1.0 seconds between shots (pre-update), then it is unlikely that the previously fired shot will still be in the air when it comes time to fire the next shot (maybe at very long range? don't know...I don't remember seeing it, but other posters have raised the issue).

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Originally Posted by Dannesk

You are correct that for very high level ATs they are still capable of 1-shotting archers after the update. However, I think that most players do not have lvl 13 ATs yet. You could also say that a level 10 AT could 1-shot kill a lvl 1 arch, but that is simply not a reaslistic situation, since people who have lvl 1 arch simply do not attack people who have lvl 10 ATs.

Moreover, your AT will still fire an unnessary 2nd shot at the archer, resulting in the same kill rate you had before (1 archer per second)--so still not really an improvement.

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While it's true that not everyone got lvl 13 ATs the update ,according to me atleast, was to counter the barch attacks in champ league and not the farming in crystal. The fact that ATs before the update shot an extra arrow aswell that some people already have stated is still the major issue with your theory :)

The impact on armies that the ATs doesn't 1 shot isn't that notacible though, barch works just fine in champ but the all arch seem to have dissapeared.

Edit: Have to agreee with you on that the ATs only shot 2 shots before if the archers were on a further distance which could help the attacks now, it will be a big difference against 1 shotting arch towers though :)

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Originally Posted by UnknownShadows

Well you dorgot to mention, heal spells/healers are now even more OP as archers and barbs whilst in them being hit by archer towers. As AT's can't 1 shot anymore.

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You are correct, heal spell or Healers can save archers from ATs now, whereas they couldn't before.

Other downsides include the inability of a post-update lvl 11+ AT to 1-shot kill a lvl 1 witch (which they could do before the update) So now a healer on a lvl 1-witch could keep her alive against a lvl 11+ AT, whereas before it would not. Its not a huge issue since the scenario is fairly limited--but since we are raising side issues it was worth mentioning.

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Originally Posted by Dannesk

You are correct, heal spell or Healers can save archers from ATs now, whereas they couldn't before.

Other downsides include the inability of a post-update lvl 11+ AT to 1-shot kill a lvl 1 witch (which they could do before the update) So now a healer on a lvl 1-witch could keep her alive against a lvl 11+ AT, whereas before it would not. Its not a huge issue since the scenario is fairly limited--but since we are raising side issues it was worth mentioning.

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Even a level13 AT can't stop that. Also it's the same with goblins, and oddly barbs. Barbs is because they are being shot @ twice as fast, but a heal spell is a constant regrowth of health so this means a barb will be at max HP or closer to max HP than before, for instance it could survive 2 AT's with a heal spell, before it wouldn't. (do correct me if i'm wrong)

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Originally Posted by Beerking

The fact that ATs before the update shot an extra arrow aswell that some people already have stated is still the major issue with your theory :)

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Yes, I agree. It all depends on if, and/or in what circumstances, the extra shot was fired before. If the extra shot was always fired before the update, then I am completely wrong and the improvement did do what it was supposed to. If the extra shot was never fired before the update, then I am right. If the extra shot was fired sometimes before the update (i.e., only at long distance), then whether the revision as a whole was successful at its intended goal would depend on how often the extra shot was fired before the update---if it was only fired rarely then my analysis would remain true for the majority of situations.

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Originally Posted by UnknownShadows

Even a level13 AT can't stop that. Also it's the same with goblins, and oddly barbs. Barbs is because they are being shot @ twice as fast, but a heal spell is a constant regrowth of health so this means a barb will be at max HP or closer to max HP than before, for instance it could survive 2 AT's with a heal spell, before it wouldn't. (do correct me if i'm wrong)

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No, a lvl 13+ AT will one-shot kill any archer, so a heal would not keep them alive--you can't heal dead. Similarly, two ATs (even of lower lvl) shooting at the same archer can kill it before a heal spell/healer can heal it (depending on when the hits arive relative to the heal pulses, as discussed bellow).

Also, the heal spell and healer do not do constant regrowth of health. They do pulses of health, so it is possible for a troop to be killed in between pulses if the hits arrive at the right time. The healing spell does a pulse every 0.3 seconds, and the Healer does a pulse every 0.7 seconds.

Also, I should revise my earlier statement that a healer could keep archers or a witch alive against an AT--it is possible if the hits and heals arrive correctly for the healer to keep them alive for a limited time. However, it is also possible for the Healer to fail to keep them alive if the hits/heals hit differently. For example, it is possible for the AT to get in two hits before the Healer does a heal pulse, thus killing the archer or witch. Moreover, eventually after enough cycles of hit/heal the timing will eventually line up such that the ATs get in two hits before the Healer heals. So the healer on archer scenario is limited--if the archers stay alive or not would depend on the dumb-luck of the timing of hits/heals. Heal spell is different though, since it sends out heal pulses faster than the AT shoots--it would keep the archers alive as long as it is active.

The main goal of supercell was to weaken barch and all arch in higher champions league where everyone has max archer towers. The desired effect has been reached for max level archer towers. However, it has made lower level archer towers weaker against stronger barch but supercell doesn't really care about this. Barching to 4k is 10x tougher and that's what they wanted. Any other side effects are fine for them.

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Originally Posted by TheWompyOverlord

The main goal of supercell was to weaken barch and all arch in higher champions league where everyone has max archer towers. The desired effect has been reached for max level archer towers. However, it has made lower level archer towers weaker against stronger barch but supercell doesn't really care about this. Barching to 4k is 10x tougher and that's what they wanted. Any other side effects are fine for them.

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If that was the real goal, then maybe the failure is not as bad as my analysis would suggest. However, even if you have lvl 13 ATs that can 1-hit kill archers, that extra shot still results in the same kills-per-second of 1 kill per second, so its hard to call that a big improvement. I guess the improvement may appear in those cases where the AT would have fired two shots before (if there are any such cases...still haven't seen convinving evidence yet).

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Originally Posted by Dannesk

Yes, I agree. It all depends on if, and/or in what circumstances, the extra shot was fired before. If the extra shot was always fired before the update, then I am completely wrong and the improvement did do what it was supposed to. If the extra shot was never fired before the update, then I am right. If the extra shot was fired sometimes before the update (i.e., only at long distance), then whether the revision as a whole was successful at its intended goal would depend on how often the extra shot was fired before the update---if it was only fired rarely then my analysis would remain true for the majority of situations.

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They definitely shot twice sometimes but I'm fairly certain it only was at a further distance as you suggested, you can just check a random youtube video to confirm it for yourself but it looked like it in the one I watched.

The distance matter of course, most people will have random buildings in front of the ATs which might be enough for the double shot.

But as I said before I think it was to counter the very popular all arch in champ, was a lot of complaints about a tier one troop army that was close to impossible to stop unless you made it specific for that army composition. The update was a success in that regard if that was the idea no matter the extra shot :)

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Originally Posted by Dannesk

If that was the real goal, then maybe the failure is not as bad as my analysis would suggest. However, even if you have lvl 13 ATs that can 1-hit kill archers, that extra shot still results in the same kills-per-second of 1 kill per second, so its hard to call that a big improvement. I guess the improvement may appear in those cases where the AT would have fired two shots before (if there are any such cases...still haven't seen convinving evidence yet).

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I'm sorry, but why are you trying to analyze changes when you don't pay enough attention to the game to realize basic things about the changes. Yes, archer towers fired two shots before, more often than not in fact. You want convincing evidence, just go watch some Youtube videos, that fact that you're skeptical about this is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Dannesk

If that was the real goal, then maybe the failure is not as bad as my analysis would suggest. However, even if you have lvl 13 ATs that can 1-hit kill archers, that extra shot still results in the same kills-per-second of 1 kill per second, so its hard to call that a big improvement. I guess the improvement may appear in those cases where the AT would have fired two shots before (if there are any such cases...still haven't seen convinving evidence yet).

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Ok. Lets put it this way. At close range, which your troops will spend an awful lot of time at, the faster kill will become apparent.

Max (or approaching it) range pre-update did indeed suffer from the double fire and completely unnecessary arrow against archers.

So, at max range, new ATs better (3 shots 1.5 instead of 2 in 2), as both will waste a shot.

At medium range, either no difference for high lv towers that would kill in 1 shot post update, or WORSE where 2 half second shots are needed to kill, with a 3rd wasted.

At close range though, and only against max ATs for max arch, the change is noticeable, and devastating. Try an attack. See for yourself.

As others have said, it was designed to hinder high level barch and all arch. Go to champion and see how many sub 13 ATs you see, and how much time youll spend at a range great enough that the change doesnt work. Answer is, not a lot. Outer buildings are mostly kept close in, and ATs near perimeter, to stop easy % being given away.
I did try a barch against max ATs for my own amusement/experience, and stuff sure does die noticeably faster.

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Originally Posted by TheWompyOverlord

The main goal of supercell was to weaken barch and all arch in higher champions league where everyone has max archer towers. The desired effect has been reached for max level archer towers. However, it has made lower level archer towers weaker against stronger barch but supercell doesn't really care about this. Barching to 4k is 10x tougher and that's what they wanted. Any other side effects are fine for them.

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Originally Posted by Dannesk

If that was the real goal, then maybe the failure is not as bad as my analysis would suggest. However, even if you have lvl 13 ATs that can 1-hit kill archers, that extra shot still results in the same kills-per-second of 1 kill per second, so its hard to call that a big improvement. I guess the improvement may appear in those cases where the AT would have fired two shots before (if there are any such cases...still haven't seen convinving evidence yet).

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It's all about distance from the troops being hit. Yes, before this update, there were wasted arrows. They didn't always happen but there was a distance where if the troops were beyond that, an extra shot would be fired off. I was under the assumption that this new update was going to essentially get rid of wasted shots, which would heavily hurt barch attacks, but it's still a distance issue. This update still kills barch faster than before the update, but it's not as devastating as some people thought it would be. The distance is almost certainly reduced though as it effectively halved the time in between shots. Still, the end result are faster killings of tier 1 troops.

EDIT: Superfinch included that less frequent caveat, with the change in distance that would render a wasted shot with the new AT rate of fire compared to the original distance with the old AT rate of fire. That would also only yield that effect when the difference from killing goes from 1-shot to 2-shot, or 2-shot to 3-shot. So technically there is a chance this had the opposite of the desired effect, but only for a small window under specific circumstances between archer/barb level and AT level.

Wompy, you hit the nail on the head. They are trying to do away with barching 50% 1-stars in high masters/champs. This was very obviously a move to increase gem revenue through using troops with longer cook-times b/c more people will no longer be able to barch the league bonuses that high. The ironic thing about this is that the main reason people had to barch that high in the first place was b/c they rendered high-cost troops pointless with their elixir for walls update. Punishing players for using the option they got forced into using b/c of moves SC implemented.