Mildly Incoherent Ramblings about the state of the game, and ways to fix it.

Okay, as a quick summary up until this point let's all agree that there have been some very unhappy people since the last major update, and before that as well. We have had a LOT of changes to the game recently, but without a doubt the ability to buy walls with elixir is the biggest of them all. Despite what the youtubers currently aboard the mothership have assured us, loot has most certainly changed since then. This is only one of the issues I want to address, but it is definitely one of the biggest.

Keep in mind, I very much understand that this game is a *business*, that Supercell honestly wants us all to be happy and continue playing for years, but... what they *require* is a business model that can be sustained for as long as possible. Even for a company as small as SC, there are significant costs associated with running this game as well as the other two. Their newest shareholder threatened to douse himself in gas and set himself ablaze if he didn't get his first job at the bank, so... Money comes first - and we need to understand that. Profit needs to be a GROWTH factor, period. I bring this up because LOOT is very strictly tied to this business model. If the loot is too plentiful, people's bases grow too fast, accelerating and shortening the 'player window' and in the end this is bad for the bottom line.

Another thing to keep in mind is that *nothing* is by accident. We as the player base are manipulated on a level that is beyond our understanding, and without a doubt there is a team of very highly trained psychologists on staff at SC headquarters, a group of people who are paid quite well to tell the programmers and game designers what they need to do in order to string us along, to play us like fiddles, to empty our pockets. This isn't evil, this is business. On a side tangent, Angry Birds was the first 'engineered meme' in this regard, I believe they had 8 psychologists on staff - several with Masters degrees I am sure. Did it work? Well, Angry Birds is worth an estimated $14 Billion at the moment, and when Lucas, Mcdonalds, and Transformers are scratching at your door for a piece of the action it is safe to say it did. My point is this - nothing Supercell does is by accident. Yes, they can be surprised at the reaction to certain things, but their plans are long term and even when it looks like they have made a grievous error - I assure you they have not. Even making us angry serves a purpose, but the monster must be careful that it does not develop blind spots...

Enough rambling, I will get to the point. This game isn't 'dying', but it is in a precarious and dangerous position right now. I believe that Supercell is unable to understand the viewpoint of the common player, they have been sitting on thrones of gold (er, developer iPads) and their 'connections' to the community are people who spend $500 a week on gems. This gives them a skewed perspective, and while these forums exist in part so that there is a line of communication between the players and the developers, that line is twisted and broken. Why? For several reasons. One, Supercell is an odd company, with odd philosophies, and their ultimate goals don't necessarily coincide with ours. Another thing we all need to keep in mind is that we here on the forums (and on reddit) are a very small fraction of the player base, and appeasing US is not their primary objective. They need new blood, fresh blood, and by blood I mean money.

With that in mind, here is a bullet point list of some key things I believe need to change in this game, not only to make us happy, but to make Supercell happy, and to increase the longevity and 'fun factor' of this game. So without further ado, er I mean incoherent foaming at the mouth... (okay who am I kidding I am just getting started).

• LOOT. Quite simply, for TH9 and TH10 at the moment it is difficult to even break even on an attack. People used to be forced to live with their paranoia because they had no choice - they HAD to save up for troop upgrades. This meant there was loot to take from them, and for them to take from us. Dumping elix into walls serves two purposes - it reduces the amount of stress people suffer while worrying about getting jacked, and it makes upgrading troops through gemming all the more easy to rationalize. Now then, how to 'help' the loot issue? I believe there have been many great suggestions made here on the forum as to how to go about this, but what I would like to see is a radical, ground up rewrite of the entire system. Bumping up the league bonus was nice, and it was a fairly decent little boost. What I am talking about, however, is an entirely new algorithm as to how much loot is 'lootable', based on all the factors at play. You want to jump up in leagues for the bonus? Be prepared to pay for it. You want to take your zooty-maxed TH10 base down to Gold III and bully people around on the playground? Be prepared to suffer a lot more than you do now. Zapping DE needs to go. Loot penalties are fine, but they can't just be hard fast rules. They need to be a complicated new way to stop bullies, to reward heroism, and more than anything boost the amount of elix gained from a successful attack - even if it is faked a little like what they were doing in BB for many months. One way or another, whether you are Barching or trying new cooks of various fun stuff - a victory should put you ahead.
• TIME. Time is our great enemy. Whether it is the agonizing 14 day wait for a defense to upgrade, or a full complement of spells, or certain troops to cook. Time can be bought, rax, spells, and heroes can be boosted, and that is fine, but... There are a few key things that absolutely must be tweaked. First of all, it was a serious tactical error for SC to take away the 'cheap wizards'. It was supposed to be 'wizard week', but it went on for a little over two weeks if I am not mistaken. In all that time, not one person complained. There were no posts on the forum talking about imbalance or unfairness. It was generally believe that they would at the very least leave the time as it was, and bring the cost back up. Instead, they pulled the rug out from under us and I really don't think they understand just how much that upset people. The cheap wizards hurt no one. They certainly didn't hurt the income for the company. Reducing the time it takes for heroes to heal was BIG, very big. They didn't do this out of kindness, they did it because their bottom line was starting to suffer, and their own stats showed that people were no longer willing to boost the heroes to make up for it. As part of a comprehensive across the board change in philosophy 'to this end', let's have more of this. The time to cook spells needs to be adjusted. Let's say instead of 45 minutes to cook a Rage, make it 30 minutes. A Heal, 25 minutes. Changes that would not stop the same people from boosting the spell factory, but would make a LOT of people very happy. Same thing for troops. Wizards... 8 minutes is RIDICULOUS when you consider that a Hog is cooked in 2. Turn Valks down to 6 minutes and take a little off the cost while you are at it. Dragons should take 20 minutes, Peks... Half an hour. Again, the same people who boost rax will still do it. None of these changes will hurt the bottom line at Supercell. As for the time it takes to upgrade a defense, in my opinion it should stay the same - and not able to be gemmed. Yes, I am serious.
• HEROES. The reduction in healing time was the biggest game changer we have seen besides the elix walls. Lvl 15 heroes time nicely with a boosted spell factory, and let's face it we need our heroes. As for the nerfs, again they realized too late that they had made them too powerful, and their reaction was a little over the top. The health gain powerup is nice, but what about other little perks for every 5th level? What if after level 20 the Burger King spawned 5 archers on top of his barbs? What if at level 25 he also spawned 2 wallbreakers? Finally, the elephant in the room that must be brought up. Not allowing an upgrading Hero to be used offensively during Clan Wars is the most boorish and greedy move SC could have possibly made. There is only ONE reason they did this - so you would be forced to gem the time. It is time to come clean, erase this little faux pas and we will never talk of it again. In the meantime, it is an ugly wart on the game.
• CLAN WARS. There is really only one thing to discuss here, and that is the opt-in/out that this game needs to survive. The friends we make in our clans is honestly one of the only reasons a lot of us keep playing. All the arguments have been made, I certainly won't rehash them here. Needless to say, in the meantime clans are torn apart or they are forced to employ clumsy and grotesque policies in order to have everyone on board. Can it be abused? If so, deal with it - don't allow regular cc donates from non Warring members for that time period. We also need more tweaks, settings for both sides to agree on. 24 hours of prep is ridiculous, I am willing to bet if both sides could vote it would be more like two hours. Same for the War itself. Let it end if it is over, and possibly allow for a short time frame for a frantic blitzkrieg of attacks. Give us OPTIONS. Clan Wars saved the game, now flesh it out. Imagine the possibilities - grudge matches, deliberately uneven, agreed upon match-ups (20 vs 15), temporarily trading key players in a DOTA-like meta game, filters to make it 'air attacks only with %75 reduction in AD damage', etc, etc. The sky is the limit.
• QUESTS. Anyone who hasn't seen the mind boggling fleshed out quest concept that one very dedicated and brilliant individual worked out a long time ago now, where have you been? Why didn't the Supercell chopper hover over this guy's house and tactical assault teams crash through his skylights on ziplines to kidnap him while his mother sobs helplessly in the corner? Guess what Supercell, there is nothing wrong with a great idea coming from outside the company. Hire him, now. CoC needs a single player boost to the arm in the form of a syringe used to put down rampaging circus elephants fired from a .50 Cal. Do it. Now.

I'm not even close to done. This is only the beginning. Add your ideas, berate and jeer at mine, whatever it takes.

I'd love to know what this forum thinks of casinos. Anyway, great thread title.

Mildly is putting it rather...mildly. You wrote a book, about an app, played by children. It also doesn't take a degree in psychology to understand how to make a good business and give people what they want. You should probably reasses your priorities. Loot is fine and time is what makes the whole point of the game. You progress at whatever rate you wish to progress at or can afford. Heroes are not some gem buying conspiracy to make you spend mommy and daddy's pay check it's just the way it is much like when you upgrade your spell factory. The prep day is fine you realize most of the time you get matched up with a clan overseas and how would a 2 hour window for that be fair. People have other priorities than playing this game all day. If you don't want to war join a farming clan if you want to war but can't, offer to leave so you're not handicapping the clan. Quests, well it's a lot easier to photoshop some pics on the screen and come up with ideas than actually making it happen within the game. Who knows what they have planned in the future. I skimmed through most of your post because well let's face it, ain't nobody got time fo dat.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

If you dont think the business model is based on extensive research of human psychology/addiction, youve got a lot to learn about the world, my friend. Thats just how it is. No opinions here good/bad. Companies use very specialized research to design their games around to make the most profit. Youd be surprised to realize how little of a choice people actually have when it comes to buying gems.

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I spent $5 on this game in the entire year + i've played and no I wasn't brainwashed by SuperCell to do so I simply wanted an extra builder hut and had a gift card laying around. You seem to think too much into things, and probably believe the illumimati is real and controlling you everytime you turn on the radio. Tin foil hat on too tight man.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

The business model is to find the exact level of frustration that yields the most gem usage while being just barely reasonable that people dont get fed up and quit in droves. Thats what this business model will always be. Want to send sc a message about the way things are run? Realize that games like this DO exploit human psychology to get people to buy gems and you have the decision to not by them, or stop playing altogether. I havent bought gems for over 10 months and certainly have no plans of doing so in the future. This is probably another reason sc doesnt care about long time players. I would bet the majority of their revenue comes from new players buying builders. Many people buy builders and never spend again (like myslf).

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Excellent response.

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Originally Posted by Jappchillin

Mildly is putting it rather...mildly. You wrote a book, about an app, played by children.

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Fair enough, but I bashed that out in minutes and enjoy doing so. Also, children? Do you honestly believe SC pulls in 2.5 mil a day net profit because of children?

I want to make something else perfectly clear - I love this game, and I have spent money on gems fully realizing what I am doing. It may seem like I am whining like a petulant child, I see it as honestly trying to reach out to SC to make them understand that the game has a LOT of potential for growth without hurting their bottom line. In fact, things like quests would bring old players back, and bring a lot of people to the game that otherwise just aren't interested. I was dumbfounded upon loading up the game to see that it had NO single player campaign. Such potential, wasted. Doesn't anyone find it strange that they haven't done one single addition/expansion to the 'campaign'?

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Originally Posted by kaibosh

Doesn't anyone find it strange that they haven't done one single addition/expansion to the 'campaign'?

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Yes I do find it odd. My guess is the popularity and financial success of the game happened far quicker and to a greater extent than anyone at SC could have possibly predicted. Victim of their own success and all that.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

Oh yes, believing that a business uses psychology/sociology to increase gem sales is exactly the same as believing that my thoughts are controlled by radio. Your comment sounds like youve just not been educated on how a business works. Have you ever taken a class in psychology or sociology?

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You don't need a degree in psychology to understand how business works i'm sure every single person on their team has taken either a psychology or sociology class but that doesn't make them any sort of genius compared to anyone else in their age group that went to college. Of course they want a successful business and to earn the most revenue while still making an enjoyable game. To think they're actually subliminally forcing you to buy gems though is ridiculous. Plenty of people have and continue to play this game completely free giving nothing but their time away. This game is pretty mild in it's business practices.

Good read, and I agree with *most* of it.

But I don't see how it would help, as SC is pretty aware of all that already, I'm sure.

Everyday sc drives another good player to running a vbot and the more they do it the more the game suffers. Human psychology experts they certainly aren't.

While I do not necessarily agree with OP on most of his suggestions, I still enjoyed reading his well thought out post. Nice to see there are people on this forum going beyond the dumb "gimme moar loot or I quit" whining.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

The line for me is when the revenue is considered more important than the gameplay. Isnt it obvious sc does this? Its not subliminal things, either. I dont believe subliminal messaging has any validity. Its all about manipulating your sense of cost vs. reward decision making. Like gemming hero times so you can use them in a war

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For those that have been around long enough they will remember what this game was like in the early days. Back then it didnt feel like money was the driver behind the software. Instead it was a small software house who had developed an excellent, visually superior and above all fun app. Note the use of the word "feel".

It is very apparent that a lot of the game additions are done to generate revenue. But i for one dont believe that the ethos of the early days has been totally lost, but more that they do not know the best direction in which to take the game. They seem lost.

I recall once saying that they were Super Cautious and Steve actually confirmed that. The SC team back at the start then had the autonomy to make a decision and go for it, now they have to hit targets and have a tried a tested model to achieve that. Any major game changing updates are a risk and they simply cant (albeit obviously they can) afford to do that.

I do agree with much of this. Don't think all of it is necessary, like shorter war prep times. But I absolutely agree that SC thinks out their tweaks to the game carefully in order to drive revenue or adjust the game in directions they want it to go. Think about the 4th mortar - you don't think they just randomly thought one day, "Hey, let's make a 4th mortar". There's a reason for it, and I would suspect it is because they want to see less barching attacks over time, which means higher troop build costs...

The first five paragraphs of the OP were unnecessary.

Everything else is brilliant. Yes, yes, and again, yes to everything once the bullet points started.

Lovely work and no small amount of carpal tunnel risk, thanks for taking one for the team. I hope it's listened to and acted upon :)

I agree with most of what you said, with the exception of forcing us to buy gems. I think that rather than force us, they play upon addictive personalities like my own, and depend upon us to cave and spend those $$$$'s.

I must say, great post though, I lol at the people who still try and say there is no problem with loot, even after SC has agreed that there is a problem.

I agree with everything you said... but they aren't going to change or improve the game until they have to. Why would they implement all these awesome changes when the current system is making them loads of money? While they have a team of psychologists to make sure the game is still addictive, they also have group of MBA's to make sure they are making money to the projected levels set forth by the CFO and CEO. If they want to make more money, they have an infinite suggestion base in these forums, Facebook, and other online forums to pull from, and all they need to do is pop it in. You don't think after all this time they don't have Quests done? They are just waiting for the right time to release it. Basically when the game gets stale enough that they start missing projections and financial targets. Same thing with every other good suggestion that anyone has ever made to make the game more fun.

This is like the saying, "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"

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Originally Posted by kaibosh

Fair enough, but I bashed that out in minutes and enjoy doing so. Also, children? Do you honestly believe SC pulls in 2.5 mil a day net profit because of children?
Doesn't anyone find it strange that they haven't done one single addition/expansion to the 'campaign'?

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Do you honestly believe 2.5 million per day is derived from a specific grouping?

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

The line for me is when the revenue is considered more important than the gameplay. Isnt it obvious sc does this? Its not subliminal things, either. I dont believe subliminal messaging has any validity. Its all about manipulating your sense of cost vs. reward decision making. Like gemming hero times so you can use them in a war

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If it is obvious perhaps you can enlighten those who are failing to see it. It is far easier to have a great product people enjoy so much they do not mind continually spending on it.

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Originally Posted by billwinkiesbear

For those that have been around long enough they will remember what this game was like in the early days. Back then it didnt feel like money was the driver behind the software. Instead it was a small software house who had developed an excellent, visually superior and above all fun app. Note the use of the word "feel".

It is very apparent that a lot of the game additions are done to generate revenue. But i for one dont believe that the ethos of the early days has been totally lost, but more that they do not know the best direction in which to take the game. They seem lost.

I recall once saying that they were Super Cautious and Steve actually confirmed that. The SC team back at the start then had the autonomy to make a decision and go for it, now they have to hit targets and have a tried a tested model to achieve that. Any major game changing updates are a risk and they simply cant (albeit obviously they can) afford to do that.

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Not only is it clear it is an indisputable fact. Updates are done to keep players interested and engaged which generates more revenue. Who is lost? I would say it is the jaded.

The team still has the autonomy to make a decision and go for it. What backs up they claim they have to hit targets? Evidence of this is lacking, supported by opinions.

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Originally Posted by ROBveteran

I agree with most of what you said, with the exception of forcing us to buy gems. I think that rather than force us, they play upon addictive personalities like my own, and depend upon us to cave and spend those $$$$'s.

I must say, great post though, I lol at the people who still try and say there is no problem with loot, even after SC has agreed that there is a problem.

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Not much of a difference from forcing lol

Here's an example: Forcing
Get a gun, shoot your pet fish

Example #2: Not forced
You don't have to shoot your fish, but if you don't ill shoot your pet rabbit

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Do you honestly believe 2.5 million per day is derived from a specific grouping?

If it is obvious perhaps you can enlighten those who are failing to see it. It is far easier to have a great product people enjoy so much they do not mind continually spending on it.

Not only is it clear it is an indisputable fact. Updates are done to keep players interested and engaged which generates more revenue. Who is lost? I would say it is the jaded.

The team still has the autonomy to make a decision and go for it. What backs up they claim they have to hit targets? Evidence of this is lacking, supported by opinions.

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And if you look here, we have a wild Coathanger in it's natural habitat. Defending it's Daddy, Supercell.

(Ready for your rage)

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Originally Posted by Perseverance

And if you look here, we have a wild Coathanger in it's natural habitat. Defending it's Daddy, Supercell.

(Ready for your rage)

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Haha, (thumbs up smiley face)

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

To coathanger (because your posts are impossible to quote):
businesses are always trying to increase their bottom line, not iust keep it steady. This is simply how a business operates. You have people saying things like, "I understand heroes arent available when upgrading, sc is a business after all." Its not my "opinion" that supercell operates like a business and makes executive decisions based on how they can make more money. Gameplay is secondary. Maybe in the beginning when sc was smaller it wasnt like this. But it certainly is now. Which makes me a skeptic of literally every change they implement into the game. The recent buff to league and war bonus is indicative of this. They wouldnt have done anything if the loot issue wasnt costing them revenue. And they also didnt fix the loot problem (that next button didnt get any better). Theyre just trying to find that perfect balance of frustration vs. profits and will continue to do so. As soon as loot is too "easy" they will purposely make it harder again. Again, this is simply how a business operates. I cant think of how anyone can disagree with this unless youre incredibly naive about the world, are a business person yourself and thus defend the model, or are a hired spokesperson of supercell... So which is it?

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Been my guess all along....

@Psychedelic I didn't quote you because the words take up valuable electrons which would be better served elsewhere.

The argument is that supercell is a business and therefor puts profits above gameplay. News for you there are multiple way to run a business. What was termed as obvious is due to lack of knowledge of the existence of multiple ways to run a business. So yes I agree it is obvious "The line for me is when the revenue is considered more important than the gameplay. Isnt it obvious sc does this?" I ask you why are you here if that line (in your mind) has been crossed. You know these are fan forums?

What is being described is parasitic, that is to the detriment of one party and hardly a sustainable model.

It is obvious revenue is considered above gameplay because they are a business? I'll repeat myself having a great product that people choose to spend their money on is not only a viable business model it is Supercell's business model. Updates are done to give the players more, the players choose to spend because they enjoy the game, symbiotic not parasitic.

The conclusion is an argument from incredulity relying on a shill gambit.

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Originally Posted by Perseverance

And if you look here, we have a wild Coathanger in it's natural habitat. Defending it's Daddy, Supercell.

(Ready for your rage)

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Originally Posted by SuperSS27

Haha, (thumbs up smiley face)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cww007

Been my guess all along....

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Ah the trolls have emerged. Have a crumb.

Don't double post!!!!

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Originally Posted by rhysmc

Don't double post!!!!

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If you are speaking towards me, I agree. It should have been a triple...Troll hat trick!:rolleyes:

Or a little kid.

1. Loot. For best results, change your trophy range around constantly. I find the best loot in both my accounts when i find a league that works, then change my trophies within that league.

2. Clan wars. You have not put any thought into what you say about wars. Prep day 2 hours? Lets all gem every war cc troop! What about international clans? You really need a gf

3. Quests. They need quests.

4. Heroes are ok, the queen AI could use a little work but they are good. Stop complaining like a 4 year old that didn't get what he wanted on his birthday.

5. Time. Every upgrade is 1 second yay. You are impatient once again.

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Ah the trolls have emerged. Have a crumb.

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Seriously? oh, you are serious....that's sad.

Coathanger is right. That is all.

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Originally Posted by Furgle

Or a little kid.

1. Loot. For best results, change your trophy range around constantly. I find the best loot in both my accounts when i find a league that works, then change my trophies within that league.

2. Clan wars. You have not put any thought into what you say about wars. Prep day 2 hours? Lets all gem every war cc troop! What about international clans? You really need a gf

3. Quests. They need quests.

4. Heroes are ok, the queen AI could use a little work but they are good. Stop complaining like a 4 year old that didn't get what he wanted on his birthday.

5. Time. Every upgrade is 1 second yay. You are impatient once again.

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By reading this post, you give yourself away as a kid as well. 'get a gf' ? Really?

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

If you are speaking towards me, I agree. It should have been a triple...Troll hat trick!:rolleyes:

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On the internet, no one knows you make multiple accounts to double your chances of being a mod:D

(Ready for your rage)

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Originally Posted by SuperSS27

Seriously? oh, you are serious....that's sad.

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Super serious. You see the hallmark of a troll is someone who Regularly takes discourse and makes it personal in an attempt to anger or incite for the lulz. It used to be more sophisticated but kids these days have dumbed it down. If you are not a troll and your comment was not what I have described I apologize for not understanding the intent of your post.

Here is a video of a troll in action.

http://youtu.be/FMEe7JqBgvg

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Originally Posted by Perseverance

By reading this post, you give yourself away as a kid as well. 'get a gf' ? Really?

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My wife won't let me have GF..... :-(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Super serious. You see the hallmark of a troll is someone who Regularly takes discourse and makes it personal in an attempt to anger or incite for the lulz. It used to be more sophisticated but kids these days have dumbed it down. If you are not a troll and your comment was not what I have described I apologize for not understanding the intent of your post.

Here is a video of a troll in action.

http://youtu.be/FMEe7JqBgvg

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We don't need a video, we can just see you in action every day lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Super serious. You see the hallmark of a troll is someone who Regularly takes discourse and makes it personal in an attempt to anger or incite for the lulz. It used to be more sophisticated but kids these days have dumbed it down. If you are not a troll and your comment was not what I have described I apologize for not understanding the intent of your post.

Here is a video of a troll in action.

http://youtu.be/FMEe7JqBgvg

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Once again, you are derailing the thread. Stay on topic before it gets closed.

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Originally Posted by SuperSS27

My wife won't let me have GF..... :-(

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Duuuuude, you're derailing the topic of this thread! sheeeesh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperSS27

Once again, you are derailing the thread. Stay on topic before it gets closed.

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I would say the thread derailed here. Oh look there you are contributing to it's derailment.

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Originally Posted by Perseverance

And if you look here, we have a wild Coathanger in it's natural habitat. Defending it's Daddy, Supercell.

(Ready for your rage)

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Originally Posted by SuperSS27

Haha, (thumbs up smiley face)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cww007

Been my guess all along....

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Super serious. You see the hallmark of a troll is someone who Regularly takes discourse and makes it personal in an attempt to anger or incite for the lulz. It used to be more sophisticated but kids these days have dumbed it down. If you are not a troll and your comment was not what I have described I apologize for not understanding the intent of your post.

Here is a video of a troll in action.

[video snipped]

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Trolling was never particularly sophisticated, but kids do seem to be dumber these days. I guess you play to your audience.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

To coathanger (because your posts are impossible to quote):
businesses are always trying to increase their bottom line, not iust keep it steady. This is simply how a business operates. You have people saying things like, "I understand heroes arent available when upgrading, sc is a business after all." Its not my "opinion" that supercell operates like a business and makes executive decisions based on how they can make more money. Gameplay is secondary. Maybe in the beginning when sc was smaller it wasnt like this. But it certainly is now. Which makes me a skeptic of literally every change they implement into the game. The recent buff to league and war bonus is indicative of this. They wouldnt have done anything if the loot issue wasnt costing them revenue. And they also didnt fix the loot problem (that next button didnt get any better). Theyre just trying to find that perfect balance of frustration vs. profits and will continue to do so. As soon as loot is too "easy" they will purposely make it harder again. Again, this is simply how a business operates. I cant think of how anyone can disagree with this unless youre incredibly naive about the world, are a business person yourself and thus defend the model, or are a hired spokesperson of supercell... So which is it?

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Based on this logic, car manufacturers should purposely install flawed parts to force their customers to spend more on replacements... Oh, wait, you think this is exactly what they do, right?

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Originally Posted by Perseverance

Duuuuude, you're derailing the topic of this thread! sheeeesh

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OK! Back on topic.

I dont believe much is going to change until the mass of current active players start really reducing spending.

Just today I was looking for my old clan that I was in and while trying to find some names of people I recognize i was seeing tons of clans with 20+ people that didnt have a shield, attacks or defenses. Were talking about 30 different clans i went through that were like this. so were talking about 60-70% of the bases are inactive.....small sample size, but very enlightening for me.

Interesting post, I read through it all also.

I think you'll get a kick out of this article, OP. Skinner box tactics etc.
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461...-addicted.html

Theory:
If we wanted to make loot better (without sc's help)we would need to have a huge majority of active players place their th outside to get sniped. Eventually all the active th's will have sheilds, exposing non active bases....
If only everyone who played coc were farmers :p.

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Originally Posted by Perseverance

By reading this post, you give yourself away as a kid as well. 'get a gf' ? Really?

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ik thats the point. it was a joke

Good ideas. Besides not gemming time. They'll never do that, and I have no problem with people who gem time. If you want your base to far exceed your skill level, be my guest.

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Originally Posted by nongemer

Theory:
If we wanted to make loot better (without sc's help)we would need to have a huge majority of active players place their th outside to get sniped. Eventually all the active th's will have sheilds, exposing non active bases....
If only everyone who played coc were farmers :p.

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This is counter-intuitive... how about all the loaded people put their town halls in for juicy storage raids!

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

You would be disgusted to know the logic behind car recalls that actually do put people in danger. Weigh the cost of lawsuits due to accidents in the car vs. the money lost by recalling the car. Has nothig to do with people's lives/safety. This is how businesses operate. Whatever makes/saves the most money. No matter what kind of business it is.

Coathanger is clearly a paid spokesperson as I constantly see him/her derailing threads with things like this. Im not new here, Im a long-time lurker. A good spokesperson does exactly what coathanger does. Not necessarily give constant "official" views of supercell but do everything to make opposing views look bad with some pseudo-logic that can fool naive children, as well as derailing threads with opposing views. This way it looks like a "member" derailed the thread and gives mods a reason to close it, as well as making the conversation go away from the negative topic. If youre not being paid coathanger, you ought to ask for some compensation from sc because youre doing exactly what a paid shill would do. So to me it makes no difference if you are or arent when pragmatically, you are.

Yes, it is possible to create a fun game and have an attrociously dishonorable business model. Ive said in other threads I love the game but hate the business model. I see how much potential the game has to become better, and so much of that is held back by the business aspect. Its not about making the game "easy" and wanting it all "easy." Its about creating a more enjoyable experience for everyone.

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Some companies (in your example car companies when this is a gaming company being discussed) have dishonest business practices therefor all companies have dishonest business practices. That is some inherently weak logic.

Still not a shill, keep running that gambit while thinking that saying something is proof enough. What I am is fairly simple to understand (not that I expect some people to be capable of understanding). I am a fan and participate in these forums. Being a fan reading the fallacious arguments used to besmirch that which I am a fan of, I contradict those fallacious arguments. Now your best line to being contradicted is to attempt to make the argument against me, I am successful when this happens, so I thank you for that. Your logic/reason has failed to stand up to scrutiny and you rely on making things up when challenged.

P.S. Still waiting on gems or a t-shirt.;)

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Originally Posted by Furgle

This is counter-intuitive... how about all the loaded people put their town halls in for juicy storage raids!

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I don't think there are enough loaded people for that to be sustainable. Also, those loaded people are the guys with maxed out bases, I commend you if you manage to get all their loot but chances are you won't, using a farming army.

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Originally Posted by Jappchillin

Mildly is putting it rather...mildly. You wrote a book, about an app, played by children. It also doesn't take a degree in psychology to understand how to make a good business and give people what they want. You should probably reasses your priorities. Loot is fine and time is what makes the whole point of the game. You progress at whatever rate you wish to progress at or can afford. Heroes are not some gem buying conspiracy to make you spend mommy and daddy's pay check it's just the way it is much like when you upgrade your spell factory. The prep day is fine you realize most of the time you get matched up with a clan overseas and how would a 2 hour window for that be fair. People have other priorities than playing this game all day. If you don't want to war join a farming clan if you want to war but can't, offer to leave so you're not handicapping the clan. Quests, well it's a lot easier to photoshop some pics on the screen and come up with ideas than actually making it happen within the game. Who knows what they have planned in the future. I skimmed through most of your post because well let's face it, ain't nobody got time fo dat.

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What a snide patronising post. You have a real sneering tone.

And no, he should not reassess his priorities to suit your view. OP was positive in his approach. You weren't.

The OP is entitled to present a personal point of view that doesn't match others. Clearly thought out, in his own words. To be applauded.

Well done OP, I read all your novel. Some nice points. Thank you.

I realize SC is a business and as such cares most for the money. There is no crime a capitalist wouldn't commit for 200% profit, as Marks wrote. But there are other and better ways to increase the revenue than squeezing the customers. To make them happy with a product, for example. Let's take a look at the latest update. The haven't added any super expensive OP buildings, only three cheap but clever traps, and a mortar which was a long due anyway. Next, they've increased the loot bonus, choosing it over all alternative ways to inject the resources into the game's economy as encouraging competitive gameplay rather than grinding. Call me naive, or shill, if you want, but for me this is an evidence that SC actually cares about their product and customer base rather than simply exploits them.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

@coathanger
My point exactly. Hypocritical response and trying to derail things more. Done arguing with the shill, heres my on-topic remarks:

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You think it is me am derailing this thread by making it personal? I do freely admit I am contributing to it by continuing to respond to personal attacks, I feel the need to defend myself from flawed thinking as much as I do the things I am a fan of.

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Why is nearly every building simply not available while its upgrading. Does strategy/gameplay have anything to do with that?

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Army camps, storages, and the clan castle are all available, not the point though just another contradiction to your assertions. The strategy is managing those upgrades how the player sees fit and adjusting your defense to compensate for that.

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Why is loot just bad enough that I have to next 50+ times on average yet good enough that I can find it if I keep pressing the button?

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Bad loot is subjective and based on many factors. I would say it is bad due to perception, expectation or how you are playing the game. Not everyone experiences what you do perhaps listening to those who do not is in order.

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Why are walls so expensive?

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The walls are the grind of this game, this is part of video gaming the best part is the achievement is shouted out every time someone looks at your village.

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Why are players' time commitment a bigger factor in their strength than their overall strategic skill?

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Take on players of your own level and you will find commitment means nothing aside from having bragging rights. There is plenty of competition at your level at any time.

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Is this even a strategy game or a game of showing off how cool your base is?

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It is both and the player decides.

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Why can someone drop $11k real money to make their base stronger than the one Ive been working on for over ten months?

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Becuase they wish to compete at the highest level and their time is more valuable to them than money.

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These are the sort of questions that make me think the way I do.

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Noted and my answers should reflect why I think the way I do.

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Go ahead coathanger, ask me some questions about gameplay that is totally just for the players benefit and has nothing to do with increasing profits.

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Yes SC is a business and nearly everything can be explained away when looking at it from a profit stand point I get that. You've explained why I cannot question this in your next statement. I will say you can play out the game free of charge without investing a dime.

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I know this is an impossible question - as some features (just one example being the halloween graphical changes (and no other part of the update)) accomplish both player satisfaction and additional revenue (get players who quit to come back and check it out, give the game a fresh look etc).

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Thank you for your honesty

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So lets see, is there a single change that has shown the integrity of supercell? Ie has there ever been a change that clearly was for the betterment of gameplay while possibly hurting sc's recenue stream? I have yet to see one. And I can think of many potential changes that would fit this category. In the end of the day its all about the money no matter how you look at it.

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Hero nerf, loot penalties, free gems do not take that short list as the only changes falling under the category of changes that solely benefit the players.

Please guys. No need to spend an hour long worth of messages about a common topic. I see you tried hard on this thread, which is good. But you tried a bit too hard. People won't read all of that! At least I won't. Just some tips.
Dont be verbose, be acute with words. It makes you sound a whole lot smarter:)

back cm to the thread.... An easy way to fix it were for supercell to have players that are advocates for themselves...I believe the antonym of this is...lazy?

Ignoring everything but the OP...

Every day i've gotten closer to rage quitting. Loot issues continue. 95% of possible raids (C1) (max th9)...are in the 40-70k range. What good is that? Even with the increased loot bonus that doesnt break even with a full army raid. I'm sick of barching....and miss the fun this game was...

countdown has begun...

Took a bit of work to write I assume, nice post.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

@coathanger:
Alright theres no point in continuing this debate, as I feel we have both adequately described our positions. I could refute what you said but you already know what Im going to say and I already know what you would say back so lets just skip all that and let me ask you one question:
Do you think the game could be better than it is now with a few tweaks? Do any of those tweaks interfere with Supercell's revenue?

In all honesty we are both on the extremes of this issue while the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. I would argue that supercell considers both money and gameplay, but money first. You would argue that they also consider both, but gameplay first. Both are opinions which cannot be proven as we are not executives in sc. I simply assume that such a profitable company would operate the way most large companies operate - profits before people. If you need more examples than car recalls, I got plenty more. Business is business. Theyre all run the same. A business class will apply to anything you decide to manage, from a McDonalds to a social movement.

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So you think that supercell runs their business the same as McDonalds? Okay...

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Originally Posted by Pete82

I'd love to know what this forum thinks of casinos. Anyway, great thread title.

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Lol and this forum would hate hate hate casinos.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

Why can someone drop $11k real money to make their base stronger than the one Ive been working on for over ten months?

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Correction. A maxed TH10 that gemmed everything has the same HP and DPS as someone that maxed their TH10 purely on raided resources.

You either pay with time or money, whichever you determine is least precious to you.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

Well I dont particularly see that as being fair. Not to get into real-life economics, but money has different value to different people, and anyone with $11k to blow on a mobile game probably didnt earn it "the hard way."

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Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It doesn't particularly matter where the money comes from though. It certainly isn't fair from a level playing field point of view, but that is the beauty/curse of the freemium model.

@Pshycedalic
I disagree there is always a point to debate, if you enjoy it. Wish you would refute what I said, that is how knowledge is found.

Do I think the game could be better? I think everything in existence could be improved on, aside from the people I love the only thing to improve upon is how I treat them. However there are limits to how much tinkering should be done, especially without forethought lest you end up with unintended consequences you are incapable of correcting.

Do I think my improvements would hurt Supercell's wallet? I am not in a position to determine that I am a gamer/fan not an accountant, market manager, nor CEO and most importantly I am not a developer who makes decisions about what direction to take the game (BTW their wallet is not a factor here). The game is so well done and appeals to so many people the only wrong decision they could make is to shut down the servers. Their time and energies go into making a game for all of us.

If you noticed I argued money is not a factor in improving game play, that ship sailed on the release date back in 2012.

If you want a somewhat accurate comparison compare Supercell to other software companies not car manufacturers. What you will find is Supercell strays from many of their models, does not design the game on a spreadsheet, keeps it simple in comparison and no single item in the game cannot be obtained free of charge.

Business is business however not all business' are alike, like all birds are birds but all birds do not fly. More aptly like all humans are human not all humans think.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

Actually a good post you made here. My only rebuttal is questioning the reasons behind changes. Like the hero heal reduction time. Is that because people stopped leveling/gemming their heroes before it? I know many who started the hero grind again after that. I would argue that all similar positive changes are only due to increasing profits.

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Allow me to allow you to contradict yourself here. Your words. "Go ahead coathanger, ask me some questions about gameplay that is totally just for the players benefit and has nothing to do with increasing profits. I know this is an impossible question - as some features (just one example being the halloween graphical changes (and no other part of the update)) accomplish both player satisfaction and additional revenue (get players who quit to come back and check it out, give the game a fresh look etc). "

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But see our arguments are speculation/opinion on both ends. That being said Im not familiar with many other mobile game companies. But in general freemium business models tend to be more "sleezy," if you will, than one-time payment or subscription based games. Ive seen countless games butchered by the freemium model, and while sc is not as bad as some, its surely far away from the best.

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Sleazy? Oh yes I agree there are countless freemium games where you must pay to play, this is not one of them. Furthermore CoC is more accurately described as free2play and currently the most successful and most popular(?). Was this a result of a pact with the devil? :rolleyes:

Actually a lot what you term as speculations are backed up by SC themselves. Sorry those other games you played were butchered, get back on that horse or well wait till it looks at you funny then beat it.

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On a side note: Im guessing the main reason you have the reputation you do is because of your poor attitude. Even in this reasonable post your last sentence just rubs me the wrong way. Its incredibly pretentious and dismissive.

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Tu quoque. My reputation in the eyes of my detractors is of little importance. Joan Jett has a song about my feelings on that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RAQXg0IdfI Here are a few lines in case you do not listen.

You're living in the past, it's a new generation

Never said I wanted to improve my station

I've never been afraid of any deviation
An' I don't really care if you think I'm strange


The world's in trouble, there's no communication
An' everyone can say what they wanna to say
It never gets better, anyway

Probably the best post I've seen on the forums.

Yeah, I agree with Physch's statements. Games are always more fun before they are popular--and let's face it, June was when things started going down hill--also at the same time as kids were getting out of school and looking for a game. I would argue hardly anything extensive is added that is not predicted as "gem worthy" by the folks at sc.

This was an enjoyable thread and should be eye opening to many who read it.

They obviously have a business model that isn't sustainable over the long term, because its based, as was discussed very nicely above, around frustrating customers. It works, for now. I'm a sucker, I fell for the business model. For me it was Castle Clash, blew probably a grand on "rolling" heroes and then realized that it was all set up intentionally to frustrate people and constantly make it so you have to spend huge money to improve.

I play COC because so many of my family and friends play in my clan and I like helping them. I will quit as soon as the last of the kids grows out of it and gets tired of it, its a titanic waste of time and while I spend basically peanuts on the game, mostly just to gem donations, I dislike the feeling of giving my money to a company that's goal is to frustrate me and all of us.

They have done an almost incredible job of using this forum and youtube to generate interest in their game. If you pay much attention though, you realize quickly that the biggest youtubers are just shills. Galadon is probably the biggest one that isn't just a stooge.

And this is it for me and these games. This is the last time I ever download a grinding game that is trying to sell time by frustrating you. Or trying to sell success by this or that.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, its a completely terminal business model. Castle Clash is already done. They can't find new ways to give you honor badges and resources quick enough. COC is pounding on, for now. No business whose main goal is to maintain frustration among its players will last forever.

On THE VERY DAY that the last of the young people in my clan quits, I'm done. Until then I guess I'll war on with them.

On a side note, as much discussion about business lies herein, alot of it very good. I have always been an entrepreneur, since I first saved a couple bucks waiting tables to start my first (very very failed) business. I remain one today, I always will. I'm very patiently awaiting the sale of one of the businesses because I am so impressed with the manager that I want to start something much bigger with him as the leader.

When I had my first big windfall in business I bought 5 businesses as investments, longstanding ones that had fallen on hard times that I hoped I could turn around. My idea was that would provide me with a longstanding income stream ASIDE FROM funds stuffed in a brokerage house somewhere. Like insurance for the day when the banks all go crazy again. I thought very long and very hard about what type of business to invest in, and I chose one. It is one that has existed for millenia, it will exist for millenia more, I do not run them in the hopes of maximizing short term profits, I run them with the goal of providing security for my family for a long long time. Can anybody guess what they are?

As far as SuperCell goes, when these companies start to go public, they will be the easiest short sale of a lifetime, the only question will be timing. They will probably list and trade for an unbelievable multiple, showing huge growth, etc. But with such an unsustainable business model that will eventually, like me, put off all players from the entire genre... They can't last.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

How exactly did I contradict myself? I told you to give me examples of gameplay changes for the sake of gameplay rather than profits. My rebuttal is questioning the nature of your examples. I see your examples as positive improvements, but in my opinion they are just a reaction to a loss in gems sales in regards to those items. Hence this debate is pointless because this is my belief/opinion and I already know you disagree. Lets move on.

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No what you asked for was.
"So lets see, is there a single change that has shown the integrity of supercell? Ie has there ever been a change that clearly was for the betterment of gameplay while possibly hurting sc's revenue stream?"

You prefaced that with.
"Go ahead coathanger, ask me some questions about gameplay that is totally just for the players benefit and has nothing to do with increasing profits. I know this is an impossible question [...]"

Then you came back with. BTW this was not one of my examples, but it was an excellent example of where they reduced profit for the player experience.
"My only rebuttal is questioning the reasons behind changes. Like the hero heal reduction time. Is that because people stopped leveling/gemming their heroes before it? I know many who started the hero grind again after that. I would argue that all similar positive changes are only due to increasing profits."

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Really not sure of the point youre trying to make here. I said already i love coc and think its a great game. The only thing were talking about now is the impact of the business model on the game. Are you saying the game automatically doesnt have a sleazy business model because its popular...? Okay....

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Reread it again..Their model does not give you updates based on calculations done in order to milk people of their money. They do not have a sleazy business model, there is no evidence, claims used to support this are based on car parts......ROFL Sorry I just got a good laugh there, nothing personal.

Furthermore the argument here is simply affirming the consequent. Not all free2play is sleazy.

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This means absolutely nothing. Do you really think sc would admit to putting profits before gameplay? No company would admit to that... Theres such a thing as PR you know...

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Argument from incredulity, I see you are fond of this one and talk about dismissive. SC would never need to admit to putting profits before game play, it does not happen they derive profits from creating and maintaining a great game and people happily put in money to support it. (BTW I have not since march(?) when I bought my builders)

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Idgaf about that last part, I was just trying to let you know why it seems that nearly everyone on here has very strong negative reactions towards your posts.

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People have strong reactions to being contradicted, something I do a lot and I usually do not sugarcoat it.

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P.S. This is really taking a lot of my effort to argue with you as im typing all this on a phone...

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That is dedication! Props and thank you for taking the time, although I really should get off my puter, so stop for both our sake!

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Originally Posted by Humbob

On a side note, as much discussion about business lies herein, alot of it very good. I have always been an entrepreneur, since I first saved a couple bucks waiting tables to start my first (very very failed) business. I remain one today, I always will. I'm very patiently awaiting the sale of one of the businesses because I am so impressed with the manager that I want to start something much bigger with him as the leader.

When I had my first big windfall in business I bought 5 businesses as investments, longstanding ones that had fallen on hard times that I hoped I could turn around. My idea was that would provide me with a longstanding income stream ASIDE FROM funds stuffed in a brokerage house somewhere. Like insurance for the day when the banks all go crazy again. I thought very long and very hard about what type of business to invest in, and I chose one. It is one that has existed for millenia, it will exist for millenia more, I do not run them in the hopes of maximizing short term profits, I run them with the goal of providing security for my family for a long long time. Can anybody guess what they are?

As far as SuperCell goes, when these companies start to go public, they will be the easiest short sale of a lifetime, the only question will be timing. They will probably list and trade for an unbelievable multiple, showing huge growth, etc. But with such an unsustainable business model that will eventually, like me, put off all players from the entire genre... They can't last.

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Can I borrow your crystal ball for the next time the lotto jackpot hits the roof? You seem to think you're a master of business while trashing a small team of developers who trump any earnings you or I could ever dream of. They made a game people wanted to play and are keeping it going, their business model is legitimate and rather clean to say the least. You literally trade either time or cash there is no underlying theme of greedy corporates doing the evil pyramid fingers of contemplation. They simply gave people the option to buy an ingame currency to speed up their progress. They never put up any intentional road blocks to force people into buying them. There's no conspiracy of them trying to purposely frustrate players and trigger the credit card application process in your mind forcing you to buy gems. Happy people buy more gems than frustrated ones.

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Originally Posted by Jappchillin

Mildly is putting it rather...mildly. You wrote a book, about an app, played by children. It also doesn't take a degree in psychology to understand how to make a good business and give people what they want. You should probably reasses your priorities. Loot is fine and time is what makes the whole point of the game. You progress at whatever rate you wish to progress at or can afford. Heroes are not some gem buying conspiracy to make you spend mommy and daddy's pay check it's just the way it is much like when you upgrade your spell factory. The prep day is fine you realize most of the time you get matched up with a clan overseas and how would a 2 hour window for that be fair. People have other priorities than playing this game all day. If you don't want to war join a farming clan if you want to war but can't, offer to leave so you're not handicapping the clan. Quests, well it's a lot easier to photoshop some pics on the screen and come up with ideas than actually making it happen within the game. Who knows what they have planned in the future. I skimmed through most of your post because well let's face it, ain't nobody got time fo dat.

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Lol I actually quite liked his points and ideas and thought it was well written. We'll done OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jappchillin

Can I borrow your crystal ball for the next time the lotto jackpot hits the roof? You seem to think you're a master of business while trashing a small team of developers who trump any earnings you or I could ever dream of. They made a game people wanted to play and are keeping it going, their business model is legitimate and rather clean to say the least. You literally trade either time or cash there is no underlying theme of greedy corporates doing the evil pyramid fingers of contemplation. They simply gave people the option to buy an ingame currency to speed up their progress. They never put up any intentional road blocks to force people into buying them. There's no conspiracy of them trying to purposely frustrate players and trigger the credit card application process in your mind forcing you to buy gems. Happy people buy more gems than frustrated ones.

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They have done unbelievably well, as have I'm sure a whole host of copycat games. Unbelievably, billionaires will be made out of this. I stand by the pretty obvious assertions that their intention is to frustrate players, and the model cannot be sustained. Its a preposterously bad sales proposition that preys on the human psyche, as mentioned by others above. For the cost of a few lava walls (gemmed) you could get a PS4 a TV and everything if video games are what you really wanted.

They came up with a new concept, that probably shocked everybody involved at how well it works. It is very very carefully designed to constantly frustrate players and encourage them to spend "just a little". Which adds up to alot, which can't last over time.

Everything is designed to frustrate players. The hero heal time reduction, as mentioned above by another, was very clever way to get pepole to care about heroes again after the big hero nerf. How many times in these games will some hero or troop be overpowered, only to be nerfed just after people stop spending on it. Right now they are really trying to get the valk used. If they nudge it to OP'd, it will be nerfed... after everybody has maxed it. Drags are left so powerful for most clans because they cost so much.

Its brilliant, but its also something that I simply will never participate in again. I will never download one of these "grinding" games again. I honestly cannot wait for the day the last of my young family members quits, I'll be out the door right after them.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jappchillin

Can I borrow your crystal ball for the next time the lotto jackpot hits the roof? You seem to think you're a master of business while trashing a small team of developers who trump any earnings you or I could ever dream of. They made a game people wanted to play and are keeping it going, their business model is legitimate and rather clean to say the least. You literally trade either time or cash there is no underlying theme of greedy corporates doing the evil pyramid fingers of contemplation. They simply gave people the option to buy an ingame currency to speed up their progress. They never put up any intentional road blocks to force people into buying them. There's no conspiracy of them trying to purposely frustrate players and trigger the credit card application process in your mind forcing you to buy gems. Happy people buy more gems than frustrated ones.

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And, no master at all. Nobody who has spent their life starting or working on businesses could beleive they are a master, because they would have had so many opportunities to fail. Risk management is kind of the key.

In this case thought, there isn't any crystal ball needed, these guys have a shooting star beyond all belief, but just so obviously destined to fall in the end. And no, happy players don't buy more gems. Addicted players who are frustrated or impatient do.

cheers

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

Classic coathanger. Doesnt even have real rebuttals so just strawmans me to no end.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Not even worth my time to respond to your actual post. It should be clear to anyone with half a brain youre a shill.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

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I am just going to assume your 12 year old brother is on your phone now. I will be happy to continue the discussion once the phone is in the hands of an adult.

I approve this post. Fix it SC.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

Nice ad hominem. Call me a child because I called you out on strawman arguments. What a joke. Is the only reason you arent banned because you work for supercell?

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This is the last I will respond to you while you maintain this tone.

You did not call me out on a single argument you posted a link and did not cite one single argument of mine as falling into that category.

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

Nearly every argument in your last post was a strawman. That good enough for you? Reread my posts then read yours and youll see you clearly misrepresent my arguments in your rebuttal = strawmanning. Intentional or not, I do not care.

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Glad to see a more civil tone, thank you for that.

If it is every single argument I encourage you to take the time to show how two of them are straw men.

I love it when coathanger gets active in a post.

Anyway OP you have my full support +1

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Originally Posted by Psychedelic

Not worth my time. Idgaf about proving anything to you and anyone who has been following this whole thread will already know by reading the dialogue. So stop encouraging me to waste my time. Im not.

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You cannot evidence that which you claim? Good to know.

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Originally Posted by Humbob

They have done unbelievably well, as have I'm sure a whole host of copycat games. Unbelievably, billionaires will be made out of this. I stand by the pretty obvious assertions that their intention is to frustrate players, and the model cannot be sustained. Its a preposterously bad sales proposition that preys on the human psyche, as mentioned by others above. For the cost of a few lava walls (gemmed) you could get a PS4 a TV and everything if video games are what you really wanted.

They came up with a new concept, that probably shocked everybody involved at how well it works. It is very very carefully designed to constantly frustrate players and encourage them to spend "just a little". Which adds up to alot, which can't last over time.

Everything is designed to frustrate players. The hero heal time reduction, as mentioned above by another, was very clever way to get pepole to care about heroes again after the big hero nerf. How many times in these games will some hero or troop be overpowered, only to be nerfed just after people stop spending on it. Right now they are really trying to get the valk used. If they nudge it to OP'd, it will be nerfed... after everybody has maxed it. Drags are left so powerful for most clans because they cost so much.

Its brilliant, but its also something that I simply will never participate in again. I will never download one of these "grinding" games again. I honestly cannot wait for the day the last of my young family members quits, I'll be out the door right after them.

I appreciate your thoughts.

---

Happy players spend more than angry ones. They aren't frustrating players. Things get nerfed after the max level because when people on a mass scale start using it there's a lot more data to go on than any tests they can do with their numbers. It's not some knee jerk reaction to upset people heroes were blatantly overpowered. Choose not to participate in it all you want you always had the choice not to and were never forced into buying gems. Even if you regularly buy small amounts of a gems that's a reletavely smalls investment compared to monthly subscription plans, tv plans, music, or any other forms of entertainment. People who spent thousands probably either already had a tv/ps4/whatever or they didn't need one because Clash was their main form of entertainment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Humbob

And, no master at all. Nobody who has spent their life starting or working on businesses could beleive they are a master, because they would have had so many opportunities to fail. Risk management is kind of the key.

In this case thought, there isn't any crystal ball needed, these guys have a shooting star beyond all belief, but just so obviously destined to fall in the end. And no, happy players don't buy more gems. Addicted players who are frustrated or impatient do.

cheers

---

No game lasts forever but they're doing just fine for now and easily have a few years left. If you or someone you know impulsively buy things just because you're frustrated you have worse problems to deal with than worry about SC's business practices. See a therapist before you're in debt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Psychedelic

Lawdy you got me. Im just a shill for another gaming company

---

You said it not me. Glad the truth is out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DontHitMeDaddy

How do I "evidence"?

---

You show evidence of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coathanger

You cannot evidence that which you claim? Good to know.

---

You cannot have a discussion on the forums without sounding condescending? Good to know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DontHitMeDaddy

Evidence is a verb now?

---

Pick up a dictionary or wait here let me get you another grape soda....

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evidence

verb (used with object), evidenced, evidencing.
4.
to make evident or clear; show clearly; manifest:
He evidenced his approval by promising his full support.
5.
to support by evidence:
He evidenced his accusation with incriminating letters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LordAmbreon

You cannot have a discussion on the forums without sounding condescending? Good to know.

---

Care to evidence how I am being condescending?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Psychedelic

You realize no one actually cares; the only reason people try to call out your petty mistakes is because you do it to others... And youre a coc ;)

---

I agree people try a lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coathanger

Care to evidence how I am being condescending?

---

Sure let me get on my pc, the iPad's cpu probably can't handle this.

This is what we need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Psychedelic

HA! Ha... That was a good one, thank you haha

---

What's really funny is how much you say you side with the OP, yet you're almost trying so hard to derail his thread into being closed and nuked off the face of this forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coathanger

Care to evidence how I am being condescending?

---

Why, yes, I do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coathanger

Evidence of this is lacking, supported by opinions.

---

Completely dismissing a user's posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coathanger

@Psychedelic I didn't quote you because the words take up valuable electrons which would be better served elsewhere.

---

If you don't see this as condescending, then you are purposely being obtuse.

Quote:

---

Your logic/reason has failed to stand up to scrutiny and you rely on making things up when challenged.

---

Dismissing his arguments again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coathanger

I am just going to assume your 12 year old brother is on your phone now. I will be happy to continue the discussion once the phone is in the hands of an adult.

---

Calling him immature when you don't like what he is saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coathanger

This is the last I will respond to you while you maintain this tone.

---

This is simple arrogance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coathanger

You cannot evidence that which you claim? Good to know.

---

Dismissing his arguments for the third time this thread.

Nah man loots fine idk what u guys are talking about lol cheers

going to raid 700k in resources brb

supercell 5 ever

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kingEr1c

Nah man loots fine idk what u guys are talking about lol cheers

going to raid 700k in resources brb

supercell 5 ever

---

Have fun with those level 3 troops.

@lordamberdon

Perhaps you should read his tone from the start and then look at where those comments arise from. There is nothing wrong with colorful debate it makes for a more interesting read.

Rather silly you a quoting me out of context. Why? Those words are written in direct response to actions and claims without foundation. It is not dismissive to ask for evidence of a claim nor is it dismissive to point out evidence supporting a claim is lacking.
Saying it does not make it so. You need to be able to support your claims and explain their foundations.

Yes, I am dismissive of claims lacking evidence to support them. Now how I am condescending?

To the original poster, Kaibosh:great synopsis of your understanding of the way it is and how things work in Clash of Clans! I enjoyed reading it and it had a very clear message! I just want to say that I agree with you completely 100%!
Glad to have fellow clashers who tell it like it is, and are dedicated to the game as you are!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Psychedelic

My iphone almost crashed reading all that... Almost ;)
It looks like we have successfully anti-trolled coat out of this thread, now lets remeber why we did that: to keep it on topic and not get closed.

The OP does make awesome points and this is one of the best threads thats been made in a while. That link that facescraper gave was freakin awesome too! And it kinda got pushed into the abyss... Im gonna go find it and edit this post to rehash a conversation about it.
this
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461...-addicted.html

---

That article is a good read. How does the article relate to CoC?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coathanger

@lordamberdon

Now how I am condescending?

---

Completely dismissing a user's posts.
con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/
adjective

• having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.
  she thought the teachers were arrogant and condescending"
  

  synonyms:

  patronizing, supercilious, superior, snobbish, snobby, disdainful, lofty,haughty; More

If you don't see this as condescending, then you are purposely being obtuse.
con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/
adjective

• having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.
  ["she thought the teachers were arrogant and condescending

  synonyms:

  patronizing, supercilious, superior, snobbish, snobby, disdainful, lofty,haughty; More

Dismissing his arguments again.

con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/
adjective

• having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.
  ]"she thought the teachers were arrogant and condescending
  

  synonyms:

  patronizing, supercilious, superior, snobbish, snobby, disdainful, lofty,haughty; More

Calling him immature when you don't like what he is saying.

con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/
adjective

• having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.
  ["she thought the teachers were arrogant and condescending"
  

  synonyms:

  patronizing, supercilious, superior, snobbish, snobby, disdainful, lofty,haughty; More

This is simple arrogance.
con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/
adjective

• having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.
  [she thought the teachers were arrogant and condescending"
  

  synonyms:

  patronizing, supercilious, superior, snobbish, snobby, disdainful, lofty,haughty; More

Dismissing his arguments for the third time this thread.[/QUOTE]
con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/
adjective

• having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.
  "she thought the teachers were arrogant and condescending
  

  synonyms:

  patronizing, supercilious, superior, snobbish, snobby, disdainful, lofty,haughty; More

Also I genuinely love the name Amberdon, I'm going to name my alt that lol

Wow...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by johnnybro1234

There were too many words for me to read them all

---

Also, aren't you a BB player?:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jappchillin

I spent $5 on this game in the entire year + i've played and no I wasn't brainwashed by SuperCell to do so I simply wanted an extra builder hut and had a gift card laying around. You seem to think too much into things, and probably believe the illumimati is real and controlling you everytime you turn on the radio. Tin foil hat on too tight man.

---

You wanted a extra builder and used cash to buy one, you most certainly fell into supercells first trap, make people want to buy builders.

Thats everyones first want in this game and supercell damn well knows it ♥♥♥♥.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jacko2130

You wanted a extra builder and used cash to buy one, you most certainly fell into supercells first trap, make people want to buy builders.

Thats everyones first want in this game and supercell damn well knows it ♥♥♥♥.

---

Hardly a trap. I'm sorry if me choosing to spend my own money(actually a gift card) on a game I enjoyed. I don't mind donating a few bucks to a game that was free and managed to keep me busy this long. I commend them for that and it's still enjoyable as the time goes on.

I have to say this has been one of the most interesting and entertaining derailed threads I think I have read since the days of HB808.

I am too long in the tooth to be baited by Coathanger, he tried but I wouldn't bite. As for everyone else who was drawn into his little game you should really just learn to ignore him and his over inflated ego. He would no doubt go find a new bridge to reside under.

Unfortunately for the OP, this thread has spiralled out of control in the exact direction that Coathanger set out to guide it towards. I congratulate him on his skills.

This thread is comparable to the state of the "GENERAL" Forum today.. Good ideas get push down to the bottom of the pile never to see the light of day again. It is a shame.

Unlucky OP better luck next time, if you can be bothered to make the effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Psychedelic

My iphone almost crashed reading all that... Almost ;)
It looks like we have successfully anti-trolled coat out of this thread, now lets remeber why we did that: to keep it on topic and not get closed.

The OP does make awesome points and this is one of the best threads thats been made in a while. That link that facescraper gave was freakin awesome too! And it kinda got pushed into the abyss... Im gonna go find it and edit this post to rehash a conversation about it.
this
http://www.cracked.com/article_18461...-addicted.html

---

:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...rcell-freemium
The key argument is over whether many of the most successful F2P mobile games are little more than money-sucking "monetisation machines", where the design is almost entirely geared towards forcing players to spend money. Gambling-style addiction, without even the prospect of a payout.For the most part, Supercell's games have swerved this criticism, yet still managed to make lots of money. How? "The huge irony here is that if the monetisation is not your number one priority, that actually leads to better monetisation," says Paananen.
"When you prioritise engagement and retention – making a great game that people play often and want to play for a long time – they are happy to pay. We want to design games that people can theoretically play for years."
Paananen is quick to stress that Supercell is just the latest in a long line of games firms with this objective, and mentions World of Warcraft and League of Legends as two franchises whose longevity his company is keen to emulate.
He also has some sharp words for some of the trends in social and mobile/F2P games that have hinted at other motivations, as well as companies focusing too much on analytics as a guide for their design choices.
"There was a time, especially in the social games industry, where people thought you could create great games based on a spreadsheet: that creativity and design wouldn't really matter, because it was all about some maths," says Paananen.
"Games are still a form of art, not a form of science. You can't design fun on a spreadsheet. And if you want to make an industry for the long-term, if you can't create fun games, there's no future."
I'm sure analytics still play a significant role in Supercell's business, in terms of watching closely how people play Hay Day and Clash of Clans, and taking design decisions at least partly based on that.
In other words, Paananen's criticism isn't of analytics per se, but of the trend he saw for analytics without the art.
Supercell has talked publicly and regularly about its company culture: small teams organised in "cells", with the freedom to work on new game ideas, test them and – if the team decides they're not worth pursuing – gathering the company together to toast the lessons learned with champagne.

---

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by billwinkiesbear

I have to say this has been one of the most interesting and entertaining derailed threads I think I have read since the days of HB808.

I am too long in the tooth to be baited by Coathanger, he tried but I wouldn't bite. As for everyone else who was drawn into his little game you should really just learn to ignore him and his over inflated ego. He would no doubt go find a new bridge to reside under.

---

Wouldn't bite our couldn't bite? I suggest the later due lack of foundation and knowing the argument was easily contradicted. More on this at the end of this post.

Quote:

---

Unfortunately for the OP, this thread has spiralled out of control in the exact direction that Coathanger set out to guide it towards. I congratulate him on his skills.

---

You know me so well...:rolleyes: I wanted a discussion and found one from another sock puppet alias, Psychedelic

Quote:

---

This thread is comparable to the state of the "GENERAL" Forum today.. Good ideas get push down to the bottom of the pile never to see the light of day again. It is a shame.

---

Really? This thread was kept on the front page due to the discussion it inspired. Unfortunately one of it's most vocal supporters admitted to subverting multiple bans by using sock puppets.

Quote:

---

Unlucky OP better luck next time, if you can be bothered to make the effort.

---

Read the last line of the OP this was partially welcomed behavior.

---

Onto Dodging my question asking you to back up your claim "The SC team back at the start then had the autonomy to make a decision and go for it, now they have to hit targets and have a tried a tested model to achieve that."

What backs up the claim that they develop the game based on targets?

Steve and the CEO themselves have posted/written in contradiction to that statement.
Here are their words contradicting your words.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SuperSteve[Supercell]

Just wondering... what specific actions are you referring to? Just so you are aware, literally nothing has changed about the development process, management, or decision making power of our game teams since that buyout, or anything else in the company. I would know. I work here.

Here are just a couple of the "post buyout" actions, besides Clan Wars, from Supercell:

Live Replays
Replay improvements (Pause, Troops expended, etc.)
Saved War Bases
New War Stats
Hero Abilities
Gem Boxes & More Gems from obstacles
Reddit Redesign
Forum Redesign

None of these actions reflect any desire to do anything except for make gameplay more fun and interesting, or improve the community resources and experience. I'm leaving A LOT of changes out. This isn't to talk about the economy or loot in any way, just giving some examples of what our actions tend to say about Supercell.

Clearly as a SC employee I am biased... but as a long-time gamer, Clash player, Community Manager, and member of the game industry, it's refreshing to work development teams that truly, genuinely care about what players are saying, and constantly read feedback themselves, and discuss hot topics and player pain points extensively and exhaustively.

I have no doubt that if you spent a half hour sitting with the team that you would agree, but feel free to call me, and Supercell liars, if that helps make your argument stronger.


These are Supercell's official forums. Current moderators do an amazing job, are honest, open and sometimes quite harsh with us as CMs and the development team. They are definitely objective when it comes to internal discussions.

Feel free to create a player run forum. There are several already. Reddit is a great place and we have nothing to do with the moderation or content there. However, these are SC forums. Mods are volunteers and OF COURSE we treat them well. They dedicate their free time to making this forum a better place.



Apologies if my post offended you. It clearly touched a button that would cause you to come here just to accuse me of being arrogant and a liar. You're fully entitled to your opinion, but I don't think such heft accusations are necessarily a helpful way to affect any change at all, let alone a positive one. It's unfortunate that you have the wrong impression of me and of Supercell, but like you said "actions speak louder than words" and we will certainly continue to develop and improve this game in all aspects... economy, gameplay, etc. etc. etc. etc.

---

Quote:

---

http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...rcell-freemium
The key argument is over whether many of the most successful F2P mobile games are little more than money-sucking "monetisation machines", where the design is almost entirely geared towards forcing players to spend money. Gambling-style addiction, without even the prospect of a payout.For the most part, Supercell's games have swerved this criticism, yet still managed to make lots of money. How? "The huge irony here is that if the monetisation is not your number one priority, that actually leads to better monetisation," says Paananen.
"When you prioritise engagement and retention – making a great game that people play often and want to play for a long time – they are happy to pay. We want to design games that people can theoretically play for years."
Paananen is quick to stress that Supercell is just the latest in a long line of games firms with this objective, and mentions World of Warcraft and League of Legends as two franchises whose longevity his company is keen to emulate.
He also has some sharp words for some of the trends in social and mobile/F2P games that have hinted at other motivations, as well as companies focusing too much on analytics as a guide for their design choices.
"There was a time, especially in the social games industry, where people thought you could create great games based on a spreadsheet: that creativity and design wouldn't really matter, because it was all about some maths," says Paananen.
"Games are still a form of art, not a form of science. You can't design fun on a spreadsheet. And if you want to make an industry for the long-term, if you can't create fun games, there's no future."
I'm sure analytics still play a significant role in Supercell's business, in terms of watching closely how people play Hay Day and Clash of Clans, and taking design decisions at least partly based on that.
In other words, Paananen's criticism isn't of analytics per se, but of the trend he saw for analytics without the art.
Supercell has talked publicly and regularly about its company culture: small teams organised in "cells", with the freedom to work on new game ideas, test them and – if the team decides they're not worth pursuing – gathering the company together to toast the lessons learned with champagne.

---

Can they be refuted without relying on fallacious arguments?

*slow clap* Well done! you can google 'Clash of Clans' and copy-paste an article..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by billwinkiesbear

I have to say this has been one of the most interesting and entertaining derailed threads I think I have read since the days of HB808.

I am too long in the tooth to be baited by Coathanger, he tried but I wouldn't bite. As for everyone else who was drawn into his little game you should really just learn to ignore him and his over inflated ego. He would no doubt go find a new bridge to reside under.

Unfortunately for the OP, this thread has spiralled out of control in the exact direction that Coathanger set out to guide it towards. I congratulate him on his skills.

This thread is comparable to the state of the "GENERAL" Forum today.. Good ideas get push down to the bottom of the pile never to see the light of day again. It is a shame.

Unlucky OP better luck next time, if you can be bothered to make the effort.

---

Just because a thread is well written doesn't mean his idea's are fool proof. Most of what he talked about is a moot point. Sure he wrote it well and didn't complain like most children on here, but it doesn't negate the fact that most of what he said had no real bearing on the game. Clan wars are fine though more customization wouldn't hurt it's also very unecessary at the time, heroes are fine, and loot is fine. I wouldn't mind seeing quests in game but they aren't ruled out so honestly I wouldn't be surprised if we saw them in the game next year after the holidays are done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by billwinkiesbear

I have to say this has been one of the most interesting and entertaining derailed threads I think I have read since the days of HB808.

I am too long in the tooth to be baited by Coathanger, he tried but I wouldn't bite. As for everyone else who was drawn into his little game you should really just learn to ignore him and his over inflated ego. He would no doubt go find a new bridge to reside under.

Unfortunately for the OP, this thread has spiralled out of control in the exact direction that Coathanger set out to guide it towards. I congratulate him on his skills.

This thread is comparable to the state of the "GENERAL" Forum today.. Good ideas get push down to the bottom of the pile never to see the light of day again. It is a shame.

Unlucky OP better luck next time, if you can be bothered to make the effort.

---

Lol it's because I literally had nothing better to do.



I also am genuinely shocked this thread hasn't been closed. The OP is actually my favorite post on the forums to date.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pete82

Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. It doesn't particularly matter where the money comes from though. It certainly isn't fair from a level playing field point of view, but that is the beauty/curse of the freemium model.

---

Ever consider some 19 year old college freshman with a brand new VISA maxing it out on gems? I suspect most of the people buying the gems to that level can not afford them, and furthermore, havnt even earned the money yet. People who have 15 thousand dollars to drop on blue walls that get jumped over the same as pink ones have much better things to do than play this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Strike

Ever consider some 19 year old college freshman with a brand new VISA maxing it out on gems? I suspect most of the people buying the gems to that level can not afford them, and furthermore, havnt even earned the money yet. People who have 15 thousand dollars to drop on blue walls that get jumped over the same as pink ones have much better things to do than play this game.

---

Or they just have more spending money than you. Or they have different priorities. Or both. Either way not your money not your call. I'm sure we'd all get a good laugh at some of the things you spend your hard earned money on too if you cared to share.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kaibosh

• LOOT. Zapping DE needs to go.
• TIME.
• HEROES.
• CLAN WARS.
• QUESTS.

---

LOOT - There is no loot problem. I'm able to farm 75-80 million gold a week, each and every week. You just need to know how to look, when to look, and where to look. You can get all this info from observations while nexting. Most look problems can be solved by farming at non-peak hours, where you see mostly townhalls at your level or one level above, and switching from a collector raid army to a core penetrating army on the fly.

Non-peak hours...why would anyone be surprised they don't see loot when they are farming at the same time as a 100 million other players. Depending on your time zone you will have busy times and dead times. Observe and note good and bad hours and you will see patterns...use this info to know when to boost or not to boost, or when to shut it down and text a hot girl.

Townhalls...next a 100 times and note how many TH7's, 8's, 9's, and 10's you see. If you're seeing a lot of TH's 2 levels below you, you need to move to a higher trophy count. You can stop pushing when you're seeing 3/4 TH's at your level or one above. This will prevent you from seeing the dreaded 50% loot penalty TH levels.

Armies...when you're not seeing barch collector raids then switch to loonion and start going for storages. It's rare that you see no loot in both collectors and storages when you follow my advice from above.

ZAPPING - It's pretty simple to stop it. And once again all you need is info derived from nexting observation. All you have to do is know how much DE you have, then compare that to every base you see while nexting. You can roughly calculate a bases total DE stored by looking at their drill levels and DE storage. If you have considerably higher DE in your storage than everyone else you will be a zapping target. If your DE storage is around average or below average you most likely will not get zapped. When I'm under 25k I can cruise in G1, when I'm between 25k-50k I can cruise in C3, and when I'm over 50k I stay in C2. I have been zapped once in 3 months using this method. Find your own ranges and you will have success too.

CLAN WARS - How you could possibly think a clan is an actual "clan" when players could simply opt out. I don't know many wars where soldiers could say "well, sorry sarge, I'm just not feelin' it this week". If for some reason you need to opt out...then leave the clan for an hour and have the search begin while you're out.

QUESTS - If I was SC there would be no reason to make this happen. After they brought in the ultimate game update in Clan Wars and there are still whiners and complainers why on earth would they bring in another huge depth to the game.