The NEW one and only loot is good or bad thread

Hey guys, I'd like to let you in on a business model that game companies follow. I didn't think CoC was like that, but from reading posts from a lot of TH10s, maybe they are going that way.

This business model that "Free Games" follow will allow the player to only get so far without paying. I've been a mobile player since iPhone 3gs (actually still my device, finally getting iPhone 6 this month) and I've played a lot of free games during that time. At one point or another you can only get so far, then things become almost impossible to continue without buying some kind of gem/berry/crown/rabbit/pretty little trinkets. Then items go from 100,000 to 100,000,000 making it impossible to go any further without paying.

SC made CoC less demanding for any TH < 10, that's the free part of the game. TH10 is SC's wall. That is their design. If you want to be elite, you have to pay. I'm not there yet, and haven't had to buy gems yet (I Will for 5th builder), so I can't say what it's really like; I'm just going by some TH10's comments on thin loot. Obviously you get less loot from lower THs, so a TH10 is going to have a hard time.

Point being, if you go so far in a free game you'll need to start paying or else it will be impossible to go any further. The skimpy loot at that level TH is made on purpose and they won't change it.

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Originally Posted by BezG

I've found otherwise. I've had max elixir storages for 3 days now (Don't wanna gem for a builder). and so far the most i've lost is 300k gold and 250k elixir, (DE I haven't tracked coz ppl are more than welcome to it). Most attacks are TH Snipes as they don't wanna go up against 3 xbows and 2 infernos. Can't blame them, most are using barch armies so it's difficult to get to more than a storage or 2. My loot has never been safer!!

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So you're saying your defenses have acted as a deterrent... hrm.... isn't that the point??? :)

It would be nice if supercell acknowledged these concerns instead of mindlessly working on the game without any regard for the people that use it.

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Originally Posted by ZombieProcess

So you're saying your defenses have acted as a deterrent... hrm.... isn't that the point??? :)

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You said 'gettign aworkout'..they're not by just sitting there lol.

But in a way i see what you mean...ppl are not gonna take on a TH10 with barchers and expect to get to a lot of storages, I think most don't attack as they don't have a suitable army at that time, my 400k gold 400k elixir base is perhaps rare for them to come across at this point

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Originally Posted by BezG

In a way yes. but you're not gonna take on a TH10 with barchers and expect to get to a lot of storages, I think most don't attack as they don't have a suitable army at that time, my 400k gold 400k elixir base is perhaps rare for the to come across at this point

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well exactly. my original post was in response to the guy saying a farmer's defenses served no point.

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Originally Posted by Chupacabra57

Hey guys, I'd like to let you in on a business model that game companies follow. I didn't think CoC was like that, but from reading posts from a lot of TH10s, maybe they are going that way.

This business model that "Free Games" follow will allow the player to only get so far without paying. I've been a mobile player since iPhone 3gs (actually still my device, finally getting iPhone 6 this month) and I've played a lot of free games during that time. At one point or another you can only get so far, then things become almost impossible to continue without buying some kind of gem/berry/crown/rabbit/pretty little trinkets. Then items go from 100,000 to 100,000,000 making it impossible to go any further without paying.

SC made CoC less demanding for any TH < 10, that's the free part of the game. TH10 is SC's wall. That is their design. If you want to be elite, you have to pay. I'm not there yet, and haven't had to buy gems yet (I Will for 5th builder), so I can't say what it's really like; I'm just going by some TH10's comments on thin loot. Obviously you get less loot from lower THs, so a TH10 is going to have a hard time.

Point being, if you go so far in a free game you'll need to start paying or else it will be impossible to go any further. The skimpy loot at that level TH is made on purpose and they won't change it.

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this is different, the game has become boring due to bad loots (elix only) Many like me already use gems to boost spells heroes, barracks, etc but if I aint gonna even get decent loot to cover my army cost, whats the point ? My clannies & others I know have slowed down attacks from 100+ per season to 40/50, that too is slowing further, all collect from drills & go offline, mostly using for walls... (only Barchers are rejoicing good loots , but their days are numbered)

so gems use is not a problem (as you can see from the many statements of how much SC makes per day)

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Originally Posted by Jcman

If this is not a collector game, then why is every single picture of loot including every single one you yourself publish collector loot from semi active bases?

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Excellent point.

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Originally Posted by Chupacabra57

Hey guys, I'd like to let you in on a business model that game companies follow. I didn't think CoC was like that, but from reading posts from a lot of TH10s, maybe they are going that way.

This business model that "Free Games" follow will allow the player to only get so far without paying. I've been a mobile player since iPhone 3gs (actually still my device, finally getting iPhone 6 this month) and I've played a lot of free games during that time. At one point or another you can only get so far, then things become almost impossible to continue without buying some kind of gem/berry/crown/rabbit/pretty little trinkets. Then items go from 100,000 to 100,000,000 making it impossible to go any further without paying.

SC made CoC less demanding for any TH < 10, that's the free part of the game. TH10 is SC's wall. That is their design. If you want to be elite, you have to pay. I'm not there yet, and haven't had to buy gems yet (I Will for 5th builder), so I can't say what it's really like; I'm just going by some TH10's comments on thin loot. Obviously you get less loot from lower THs, so a TH10 is going to have a hard time.

Point being, if you go so far in a free game you'll need to start paying or else it will be impossible to go any further. The skimpy loot at that level TH is made on purpose and they won't change it.

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I completely disagree on SC's motivation. I believe it's true that it's harder to progress at TH 10, but I think it's more of an attempt to bring newer players closer to older ones. This actually makes pretty business sense without going nearly as far as you are implying. I believe they are using this as their mechanism for increasing the game's longevity. It also buys them time before they introduce any new TH levels.

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Originally Posted by ZombieProcess

Give me a break. If the economy is starving, only the most active farmers have loot. I can guarantee you all those fancy defenses are getting a workout.

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I am in champions as we speak... I have my townhall outside... It has 27 out of 30 snipes since i put it outside every single one of them as a champ. In the last 30 attacks i have lost 97 trophies only in total!

The purpose of why we play this game is eluding me between barching and bamming for efficient loot becoming the best way to get loot in general and on defense the greatest defense is to just give the top people a cheap 1 star for 1 trophy cost.

So no, my defenses are not getting a workout from even maxed bases and troop levels attacking it who can beat it at will mind you...

This game has many issues that need addressed, foremost is the elixir in storage shortage. Secondly is trophy system that is terrible for high level players. Thirdly is the lack of defense and townhall importance in the game. Fourth is lack of progressive league bonuses for extra stars. The list goes on.

I love this game, but the changes needed are blatantly obvious, are not difficult to do and will enhance the game for everyone. I expect SC knows this but is reluctant to make changes to a game raking in 3.4 million a day. Their goal with this game is BORDERLINE FRUSTRATION. ♥♥♥♥ you off just enough to buy gems to keep playing, but not too much you quit.

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Originally Posted by Chupacabra57

This business model that "Free Games" follow will allow the player to only get so far without paying.

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There have been people who have completely maxed their bases from farming alone....

Actually CoC is one of the few games I have played that I feel can be played without paying anything.

You do not need to buy gems to get your 5th builder - heck you don't need a 5th builder. Less pressure to boost that way :)

The pain begins at TH9. Think of it as a training ground for TH10. however there are a number of TH10's on here that find enough loot

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Originally Posted by ZombieProcess

well exactly. my original post was in response to the guy saying a farmer's defenses served no point.

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Ahh my bad, I missed that part of the convo :)

Alright. An update from me. 5M gold today, but it still was a constant grind. Better than the days before though.

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

This is utter nonsense. SC is pushing the game towards the state that you describe, but that does not even remotely match the reality of the game at this time.

Even without a bunch of detailed statistics, it's obvious that collector production far far outstrips all other sources of loot creation (with league bonuses being the only other source that is truly significant; clan wars being minor at best). You cannot say this game is not a collector game as long as that's the primary source of loot. It's just not possible.

Edit: Unless you mean a "collector game" in the sense of living off of your own collectors. It's true that that isn't the design of the game, but raiding still revolves around collector production anyway.

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Yes the game relies heavily on collectors as a source of loot, always has and it has been repeatedly buffed. I really do not want raiding mines n pumps to be my most effective source of income but I do like the option. My personal in game desires are not the motivation for the debate, well maybe that is wrong, I do not want farming collectors to be encouraged more than it already is.

Yes 'raiding game' in the sense of stealing from each other. 'Collector game' in the sense of popping bubbles to progress. This is why league bonuses are so great, yet so many disregard them to go farm other people's collectors or loot from someone's storages that was taken from collectors.

League bonuses are not insignificant. If I have 1 successful raid in an hour my bonus has beaten my collectors given I recouped my costs in the raid performed. This is in C3 can't wait till I can sustain myself in higher leagues, teetering on C2 currently.

Could you ask SC if they have seen a drastic return of former players due to the update? I would think this could be a likely cause for current woes. Increased demand and if that demand is temporary and waning then the economy will right itself. Putting a permanent boost into resource production to negate short term problems does not seem like the correct course of action as it would make the game too easy in the long run.

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

You're missing the point.


Exactly. TH10's can't survive off of TH8's because of the loot penalty. The majority of that DE originates from TH10's producing it. From where do the other resources originate?

I agree that the increase in production of DE between TH8 and TH10 is good (one level 3 drill for TH8, two level 6 drills for TH9, three level 6 drills for TH10), but I believe the increase in production of gold and elixir for TH10 (1 extra mine, 1 extra pump, the same level as TH7 gets) is not quite enough.

Are you talking about by stealing other people's resources? Is this a zero-sum game, or do all bases produce resources?


But from where did the resources originate that you just stole in those two raids?

I would argue that TH10's producing more gold and elixir would improve the economy for TH10's. You are TH9, so you do not have first-hand experience of what the economy looks like from a TH10 perspective.

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My point is the daily loot requirement is not very different between higher town halls, they may cost more but they also take more time. And yes the game is supposed to get progressively more difficult. Making th10 as easy as th7-8 would negate the accomplishment of maxing your th10.

And I expect TH10 to be more difficult than th9 just as I expected th9 to be more difficult that th8. I am getting near the top of the food chain where I will need to spend more time in order to thrive. Or being this is a game I could spend less time and just scrape get by. Regardless of what happens I will play as long as I enjoy the challenge and game play.

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Originally Posted by Jcman

Notice the bolded part... You said it yourself!


If this is not a collector game, then why is every single picture of loot including every single one you yourself publish collector loot from semi active bases?

You are not raiding people's base, you are skimming inactives. Dont tell me how to find loot when you are still using teir 1 troops to farm.

And farm for what?!? New troops you cant afford to use because there is no elixir in people's storages those troops are designed to get? New defenses you dont use because your TH is outside and gets sniped 95% of the time taking any storage loot you have out of circulation as well?

This game has many loot issues. Pretending that finding inactives is a great solution for us all is just sillyness... That is the equivalent of FarmVille. It is brainless nexting till you find a collector base. It is neither fun or the future of the game.

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Um...Refer to Zach's edit above and my response. Yes loot comes from collectors. Yes I will attack others collectors for a quick score, no I do not think putting more loot in those collectors will improve the game. And it is certainly not HayDay where I assume you log in to collect resources.

I do farm with other armies, those armies involve DE troops and I am currently using DE for research and Heroes so I barch. And I also hit storages with barch.

MY town hall is protected just not in the center of my village, it has the most DPS protection of any other building in my village. The majority of attackers must choose DE and a possible fail or my TH w/ maybe 2 stars. My base gets a work out, I happen to enjoy defenses and the majority of my raids end with me going off line and into match making. *Just got raided.

Did I tell you how to find loot? No.

I can afford any troop I wish to raid with but as intended the game will not sustain my progression while regularly using the most powerful armies.


Still doubt I play defense? Yeah I get stared often, had 2 mortars upgrading this week.
http://i.imgur.com/HclRG1F.jpg

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

My point is the daily loot requirement is not very different between higher town halls, they may cost more but they also take more time. And yes the game is supposed to get progressively more difficult. Making th10 as easy as th7-8 would negate the accomplishment of maxing your th10.

And I expect TH10 to be more difficult than th9 just as I expected th9 to be more difficult that th8. I am getting near the top of the food chain where I will need to spend more time in order to thrive. Or being this is a game I could spend less time and just scrape get by. Regardless of what happens I will play as long as I enjoy the challenge and game play.

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I never suggested making TH10 as easy as TH7-8 (nice straw man BTW).

I know it is difficult for you to understand since you have no first-hand experience as a TH10. However, there can be a balance between making the game too easy and taking the fun out of the game.

And when resources get too low, it takes the fun out of the game.

On my Th09 account loot is actually a bit better.
but on my Th10 account loot is as dry as Black Rock Desert.
And having visited Black Rock Desert a few times I can tell you it's epically dry!!!

Change the loot calculation to:

15% of up to 2 million

the current update has exposed how horrible the current loot system is. 10% of up to 4 million from storages does not work.

SC, make it happen. Tyvm.

I am averaging about 550-600k elixir per day.

My collectors produce 504,000 of that number.

PATHETIC.

the loot system has been broken since last December. This update has simply proven this once again.

Note - nothing but BARCH. TH10. Farming in 2600-2700 range (for the bonus cuz nobody has pink)

Yup Loot died last Dec.
Sad part is articles I've read had SC making epic profits summer of 2013. Before loot went out back to die.
Seems like a step backwards for a business.

only managed to get about 20 or so level 8 walls done today with about 5 hours farming, disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Yup DE is increased for higher town halls. It would be stupid if everyone was surviving off of th8's drills just like it would be stupid to give th8 level 6 drills due to their requirements. DE is a separate resource, has differing values and requirements than gold and elixir. TH9 already got a production boost with level 11 mines when it was introduced and TH10 got an extra mine shortly after it's release.

I don't have the will to figure out the exact numbers here. however TH10 has more ways to gain resources than any other TH and their daily requirement does not significantly exceed similar town halls. Increasing collectors further turns this into HayDay.

2 successful raids in crystal 3 an hour out perform your collectors.

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If you are going to post, at least get your facts right! Mines/collectors are maxed out at TH7. Th8 gets no production boost, TH9 does not. It is not until TH10 when you get a extra mine and elixir collector. A whooping 72K gold and elixir a day.

The most recent update - 7 lvl 13 archer towers costs 52.5 million in gold. LOL, I think that is more then the ENTIRE cost of maxing TH7! But wait, my extra mine will collect that gold in just over 1000 days. Yeah, whatever. 5 Builders can complete the upgrade in 16 days total. 52.5/16 = 3.2 mil a day.....

There is a reason COC becomes a grind a TH9/TH10. Skyrocketing costs and no extra production.

Edit: And better collectors does not mean more collector raids. It means better stores raids!

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Originally Posted by Rotten

Change the loot calculation to:

15% of up to 2 million

the current update has exposed how horrible the current loot system is. 10% of up to 4 million from storages does not work.

SC, make it happen. Tyvm.

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this is a good solution.
even better, give bigger league bonuses base on how many stars won.
if SC want to encourage people to raid storage, why dont they decrease collector raid % and increase storage raid % up to 2 million.
and FIX the NEXTs problems, its tiring.

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Originally Posted by ganja4life20

Like icarus, if you fly too high too fast you get burned.

-Batcow

p.s. stop trying to hide the loot thread lol

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Ironic that the first player to max the GG stat was named icarus, I'd say he did alright

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Yes the game relies heavily on collectors as a source of loot, always has and it has been repeatedly buffed. I really do not want raiding mines n pumps to be my most effective source of income but I do like the option. My personal in game desires are not the motivation for the debate, well maybe that is wrong, I do not want farming collectors to be encouraged more than it already is.

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I agree, which is why I have been pushing for other sources of loot production to be buffed. The only way to move away from collectors is to move production into sources that require activity.

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Yes 'raiding game' in the sense of stealing from each other. 'Collector game' in the sense of popping bubbles to progress. This is why league bonuses are so great, yet so many disregard them to go farm other people's collectors or loot from someone's storages that was taken from collectors.

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Seriously? All loot in a base (meaning excluding league bonuses) comes from collectors (either directly or indirectly) and loot from league bonuses that that person has accumulated. It is unquestionable that the majority comes from collectors though. Why? Even in champions league where the bonus is 120k gold, if you attack 3 times an hour with a full barch army or something and win each raid, you are only getting 360k/hour off of the league bonus. Is that better than YOUR collectors? Absolutely. Is that better than raiding inactives? Not even close, and that's the point you are missing. Collectors are dominant for this reason.

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League bonuses are not insignificant. If I have 1 successful raid in an hour my bonus has beaten my collectors given I recouped my costs in the raid performed. This is in C3 can't wait till I can sustain myself in higher leagues, teetering on C2 currently.

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As explained above, the league bonuses are something that is in addition to the loot that you win off a base (which is almost entirely derived from collectors). Think back to before leagues existed: loot was fine (better than it is now actually)! League bonuses are only relevant as a supporting factor in loot, and as long as farming inactives yields higher returns (which it clearly does), they can never be the dominant factor you keep making them out to be. That being said, the inconsistency of inactives (which I went into extreme detail on in a previous post) does make the league bonus more attractive because the league bonuses are unchanging. But this is a choice made out of frustration, not because it's actually the best option.

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Could you ask SC if they have seen a drastic return of former players due to the update? I would think this could be a likely cause for current woes. Increased demand and if that demand is temporary and waning then the economy will right itself. Putting a permanent boost into resource production to negate short term problems does not seem like the correct course of action as it would make the game too easy in the long run.

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Of course there is a player surge after updates, that's a well established fact. These loot woes happen after most updates, and the reasons you described are exactly why. But when you put these issues into the longer term trends, that's where I (and many others) see issues.

The last sentence I quoted is basically SC's logic and fears, going off of some of their past posts here. However, it is my belief that these fears aren't necessarily something that would result in an issue for most of the playerbase; I think it has to do more with SC's long-term goals on pricing and ease of playing. Put differently: SC wants it to be more difficult for TH 10s, and with some fairly good reasons behind it (which I actually somewhat support). Having said that, it's my opinion that are going a little too far with it.

Zach delivers.

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Th7 has lvl11 collectors to feed th9s as the loot trickles upward.

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

As stated previously loot trickles upwards which is why th7 has level 11 mines.

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The funny thing is, soon after making these posts stating that "loot trickles upwards," you made another post on a different thread attempting to argue that fluffy bunnies are not a cause of loot problems, as quoted below:

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

The problem I have with your assertion that they are the primary cause of bad loot is that they cannot loot effectively at every trophy range. So it would not be system wide.

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So which is it?


BTW - I never go below Master 3, so please explain to me how loot "trickles upwards" to me from TH7s, while at the same time you are asserting that fluffy bunnies are confined to lower leagues and do not cause loot problems in higher leagues.

Zach, seriously, just thank you for participating the discussion with open eyes. It makes it feel better for me. I can take problems easier when people admit they are there than pure denial.

All of these stats and projections and statistics is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

People, we have a much bigger problem here than how loot functions.

I'd hint at the reason, but I'd probably be banned or this post would be removed.

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

I agree, which is why I have been pushing for other sources of loot production to be buffed. The only way to move away from collectors is to move production into sources that require activity.

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I agree, but I fear SC has no intentions of upping production. Instead they use release of inactive bases to control the loot flow. I would not be surprised if they had some complex programs in place to regulate the amount of loot available in game. Adding/removing inactive bases to the search queue to maintain a certain level of total loot available. There is no reason why they could not do this by trophy range either.

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Originally Posted by Beancounter

If you are going to post, at least get your facts right! Mines/collectors are maxed out at TH7. Th8 gets no production boost, TH9 does not. It is not until TH10 when you get a extra mine and elixir collector. A whooping 72K gold and elixir a day.

The most recent update - 7 lvl 13 archer towers costs 52.5 million in gold. LOL, I think that is more then the ENTIRE cost of maxing TH7! But wait, my extra mine will collect that gold in just over 1000 days. Yeah, whatever. 5 Builders can complete the upgrade in 16 days total. 52.5/16 = 3.2 mil a day.....

There is a reason COC becomes a grind a TH9/TH10. Skyrocketing costs and no extra production.

Edit: And better collectors does not mean more collector raids. It means better stores raids!

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My facts are straight. Level 11 came the same day TH 9 was introduced. Mines do not need to be exclusive to th9 to be for it's benefit. They were put in place to feed the new town hall from the THs it raided from. Judging from the release notes for TH9 can easily be inferred those collectors were for th9s benefit.

Town Hall level 9 added!

• New defensive turret: the X-Bow! This weapon shoots bolts of Elixir with a super fast rate of fire.
• New spell: Jump! Boost your troops over enemy Walls. Upgrading the Jump Spell allows even Giants and P.E.K.K.As to jump over Walls.
• P.E.K.K.A has a fearsome new look that can be unlocked by upgrading her to level 3.
• New upgrade levels for Cannons, Mortars, Wizard Towers, Spell Factory, Mines, Collectors and Storages.

Along with those new archer towers you also have 2 new elixir upgrades and likely heroes left also. Your daily gold requirement is 3.2mil if you only focus on those new towers at the exclusion of every other upgrade. And do you really think the intent is for everyone to have all new archer towers 16d after release?

Do better collectors mean better storage raids? Those storages can empty out quicker leaving less to be taken from them for a longer period of time. Bigger collectors mean you can power raid to empty those storages sooner.

It's all a balancing act and I have not seen every aspect of the numerical game taken into account in these arguments for more loot. I'm fairly certain that the people in control have. :D

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

The funny thing is, soon after making these posts stating that "loot trickles upwards," you made another post on a different thread attempting to argue that fluffy bunnies are not a cause of loot problems, as quoted below:



So which is it?


BTW - I never go below Master 3, so please explain to me how loot "trickles upwards" to me from TH7s, while at the same time you are asserting that fluffy bunnies are confined to lower leagues and do not cause loot problems in higher leagues.

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Loot trickles upwards from town hall to town hall. Not from silver 1 to crystal.

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Loot trickles upwards from town hall to town hall. Not from silver 1 to crystal.

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Oh yes, I am definitely finding TH7's, TH8's, and TH9's in Master II right now. They are all over the place and that loot is just a tricklin' right into my storages!

:rolleyes:


On a serious note, 100% of the bases I have come across in M2 are TH10 (and trust me, I do a LOT of nexting). So how again does that loot from TH7 trickle up to all these TH10s if it does not trickle up leagues?

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Originally Posted by Beancounter

I agree, but I fear SC has no intentions of upping production. Instead they use release of inactive bases to control the loot flow. I would not be surprised if they had some complex programs in place to regulate the amount of loot available in game. Adding/removing inactive bases to the search queue to maintain a certain level of total loot available. There is no reason why they could not do this by trophy range either.

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That seems to be an untestable hypothesis though, and it doesn't really fit in with their own narratives. If they kept such a tight grip on loot like that, why do they never use that to compensate for post update loot? In fact, this should be done autmotically if you're correct. Personally I find a hyper-controlled flow of inactives to be relatively implausible.

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Originally Posted by Stinkpickle63

All of these stats and projections and statistics is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

People, we have a much bigger problem here than how loot functions.

I'd hint at the reason, but I'd probably be banned or this post would be removed.

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lol. too true, my friend!

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

Tl;dr: League bonus increases and the new loot system have destroyed the old farming ranges, and now loot cannot be effectively distributed from inactives to the actives. This is likely irreversible, so production increases (via any means) are the best solution for loot.

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Hi zachUVA, read your piece on long term loot challenges - & it's a sound theory in my mind. However, to extend further, i think the recent lix in walls change has created a tipping point.

taking your shoe / loot factory analogy one step further - whilst ranges were fragmented, additional factories were present - maxing th8's / 9's / 10's, who had spent all the lix they needed & were concentrating on walls. I feel they helped fuel the economy - was always happy to storage raid a 400k ish lix th9 with minimal gold - more than paid for the army used, & funded the next hit on a more gold rich target. Whilst i'm sure they would prefer not to be raided - bulk of gold was in walls already, they couldnae care less about the lix, as they had plenty to raid with themselves.

given the former whales were only whales cos they were focusing on walls, can't blame them for sticking the lix in walls - i would if i were them. But IMO the 'fix' (or sticking plaster) for longer term loot / shoe factory fragmentation was these lix whales - they've now gone, and gone quickly, rather than a slow drift. it may be a case that further time will be required for the new normal to be reached - & the longevity of the loot complaints are testament to this. I'm not sure the new normal will be to everyone's liking though - & i agree extra production may be required, but surely the 'lix whales' will just stick this in there walls too......

I'm sure SC thought long & hard about the change, & i trust that they are currently working hard on a soln. I also know well thought out plans can collapse on contact with real life - & as you mentioned in a later post, feel the dial may have been turned further than we (or they) expected in their plans for longer term game development.

http://i57.tinypic.com/531afq.png

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Harrisman24

http://i57.tinypic.com/531afq.png

:rolleyes:

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Hey, neat. You finally got lucky after nexting through these:

http://s21.postimg.org/ifbm8mf5j/image.jpg

So how many nexts did it take to hit the jackpot?








:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Jcman

Notice the bolded part... You said it yourself!


If this is not a collector game, then why is every single picture of loot including every single one you yourself publish collector loot from semi active bases?

You are not raiding people's base, you are skimming inactives. Dont tell me how to find loot when you are still using teir 1 troops to farm.


And farm for what?!? New troops you cant afford to use because there is no elixir in people's storages those troops are designed to get? New defenses you dont use because your TH is outside and gets sniped 95% of the time taking any storage loot you have out of circulation as well?

This game has many loot issues. Pretending that finding inactives is a great solution for us all is just sillyness... That is the equivalent of FarmVille. It is brainless nexting till you find a collector base. It is neither fun or the future of the game.

---

I am musing the effect of making destroying TH and 50% worth ALL the loot on offer.....TH s would go in soooo fast and the number of bases to loot would increase exponentially.

Dont jump all over me for this suggestion....just trying to enhance the game I love! 😃

After two grumpy posts on loot (first times as well), it's definitely gotten better for me. More realistic storage offers above 200k and higher rate of inactives. Still noticing a lot of the 200+ base offers have next to no elixir but I'm working on basis of using the inactives when they show up to supplement elixir "top ups". Seems to be working ok.

Still can't justify boosted barracks though, as I need heroes and some spells to unlock the storage bases. Have resigned myself to raiding every 20-30 minutes now instead of proper boosted sessions like I used to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Relentless

I am musing the effect of making destroying TH and 50% worth ALL the loot on offer.....TH s would go in soooo fast and the number of bases to loot would increase exponentially.

Dont jump all over me for this suggestion....just trying to enhance the game I love! ��

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Or even if destroying the TH gave you HALF the loot on offer ????

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harrisman24

http://i57.tinypic.com/531afq.png

:rolleyes:

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:eek::eek: WuuuoOOOOOoooOOWWWWWAaaaaAAAAaaWWWWwww...!!!!!!:ee k::eek:

:rolleyes: we have TWO of them in this post now, Yippy!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

My facts are straight. Level 11 came the same day TH 9 was introduced. Mines do not need to be exclusive to th9 to be for it's benefit. They were put in place to feed the new town hall from the THs it raided from. Judging from the release notes for TH9 can easily be inferred those collectors were for th9s benefit.

Town Hall level 9 added!

• New defensive turret: the X-Bow! This weapon shoots bolts of Elixir with a super fast rate of fire.
• New spell: Jump! Boost your troops over enemy Walls. Upgrading the Jump Spell allows even Giants and P.E.K.K.As to jump over Walls.
• P.E.K.K.A has a fearsome new look that can be unlocked by upgrading her to level 3.
• New upgrade levels for Cannons, Mortars, Wizard Towers, Spell Factory, Mines, Collectors and Storages.

---

Your missing the point: production remains the same for TH7, TH8 and TH9 - 432K a day. TH10 gets a slight boost to 500K a day. The cost to max a th7 is around 70mil. It is over a bil to max both TH9 and TH10.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Do better collectors mean better storage raids? Those storages can empty out quicker leaving less to be taken from them for a longer period of time. Bigger collectors mean you can power raid to empty those storages sooner.

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This makes no sense what so ever. We already know what happens when production gets pumped up: from the one gem boost events. I think most people would say the storage raids are a whole lot better while the one gem boost is going on. Are you arguing that storage raids are terrible during that period?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

Hey, neat. You finally got lucky after nexting through these:

http://s21.postimg.org/ifbm8mf5j/image.jpg

So how many nexts did it take to hit the jackpot?








:rolleyes:

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LOL, yep. I actually did pretty good farming today. But it was all dead base raiding. And having to hit next over 50-60 times. Just constant nexting through guys with 20-40K of each lol. BORING!

I don't come here often so can someone give me insight into the loot complaints?

1. Is this stuff just coming from TH9/TH10 players?

2. Are people who complain that the BARCH method/picking off collectors doesn't bring in loot dead set on that strategy or is going for storages also ineffective?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beancounter

We already now what happens when production gets pumped up: from the one gem boost events. I think most people would say the storage raids are a whole lot better while the one gem boost is going on.

---

Exactly.

Increased collector production = Better storage raids

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by badfish1979

Hey, neat. You finally got lucky after nexting through these:

http://s21.postimg.org/ifbm8mf5j/image.jpg

So how many nexts did it take to hit the jackpot?








:rolleyes:

---

Rofl found a loot like that after 20min of nexting. By the time I found it I was probably 100k down. And the good news is I get to next again right after that raid because my loons were finished again. Pretty ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DK91

I don't come here often so can someone give me insight into the loot complaints?

1. Is this stuff just coming from TH9/TH10 players?

2. Are people who complain that the BARCH method/picking off collectors doesn't bring in loot dead set on that strategy or is going for storages also ineffective?

---

You're playing a competitive game against dead players. That's the problem. Yes this is strictly th9/10

How are you going to barch farm a fully upgrade th10? Heck you won't even get 50% for the league bonus with barch unless you are against a flawed base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by badfish1979

Exactly.

Increased collector production = Better storage raids

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LOL, what else is going to fill up stores? The loot fairy? Coathanger seems to think that stores just naturally fill up and collectors dont generate 95% of all the loot in the game.

You just can't boost production for active players - like from the league bonus. Otherwise, only highly active players will have decent loot in stores. People who are online a lot, and probably have their TH outside - LOL!

If you want plentiful stores raids then you have to increase loot production across the whole population. Like what happens with the one gem event!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

That seems to be an untestable hypothesis though, and it doesn't really fit in with their own narratives. If they kept such a tight grip on loot like that, why do they never use that to compensate for post update loot? In fact, this should be done autmotically if you're correct. Personally I find a hyper-controlled flow of inactives to be relatively implausible.

---

Actions speak louder than words, take for example clan wars, i could of sworn part of the narrative was to increase loot.
I honestly cant remember the last "real" injection of loot to this game. Wait nevermind townhall 10's got an extra mine/collector, but that didnt really affect overall loot if just added a few drops to premature townhall 10's who hide behind infurno towers. So that is technically an injection of loot, but would another collector/mine/drill level really throw the loot situation that out of w♥♥♥♥?

I guess in the back of thier heads the rational is they capped everything at 8mill and along the way they reduce prices on new levels, which isnt horrible its just insanely hard to get high level walls and they want to keep it that way. I bet they do listen to these forums and were concerned people were able to farm lvl10 & 11 walls (which is insane btw) so they implemented thier newest ploy to "help" loot by making walls "easier" to farm for which in reality really just mean "harder"

btw if supercell has control of inactive like the other poster said, they defenatly would not automatically compensate after post update. They need to throw us off the scent of this conspiracy some how, right?

ps, this isnt a bash supercell comment, i love this game with or without loot, and i like clanwars, i just hate the headache it has cause with many many many many ummmm way too many clans for not having an opt in and out feature.

apperently you cant say wha ck in these forums ???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

That seems to be an untestable hypothesis though, and it doesn't really fit in with their own narratives. If they kept such a tight grip on loot like that, why do they never use that to compensate for post update loot? In fact, this should be done autmotically if you're correct. Personally I find a hyper-controlled flow of inactives to be relatively implausible.

---

It is all untestable! But as a programmer it would be pretty easy to do.

Take the loot blues post update. SC could be managing the total loot available in game. On average the player activity stays pretty constant. So their program is balancing it out.

Then along comes the update, a bunch of people log back in, everyone spends there stores and starts attacking. The loot pool is the same size as before, just a lot more people fighting for it. Loot plummets. So SC slowly starts to release more inactives. You can already see that now. Nexting 50-60 times until a dead base raid comes up.


LOL, why do you think SC always says they are monitoring things! They are tweaking that search queue to control the loot flow. Now, where is my Tin Foil hat!

Edit: Remember the whole system has trouble dealing with huge spikes in demand - player activity. It takes time for loot to trickle out from inactives to start filling up stores.

I agree with most of your post, except this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Natesmiles

btw if supercell has control of inactive like the other poster said, they defenatly would not automatically compensate after post update. They need to throw us off the scent of this conspiracy some how, right?

---

Come on, we all know this isn't the case. The reason they don't do it after updates is because they don't have those kinds of controls in place at all. The level of absurdity that this kind of theory implies would make it by far the stupidest thing SC has ever done. Highly complex systems that anger the player base with no real gains to the company (at least none that couldn't be accomplished in far simpler manners) just isn't how SC operates.

Loot blows big hairy cucumbers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beancounter

It is all untestable! But as a programmer it would be pretty easy to do.

Take the loot blues post update. SC could be managing the total loot available in game. On average the player activity stays pretty constant. So their program is balancing it out.

Then along comes the update, a bunch of people log back in, everyone spends there stores and starts attacking. The loot pool is the same size as before, just a lot more people fighting for it. Loot plummets. So SC slowly starts to release more inactives. You can already see that now. Nexting 50-60 times until a dead base raid comes up.


LOL, why do you think SC always says they are monitoring things! They are tweaking that search queue to control the loot flow. Now, where is my Tin Foil hat!

Edit: Remember the whole system has trouble dealing with huge spikes in demand - player activity. It takes time for loot to trickle out from inactives to start filling up stores.

---

I'm confused, are you making a joke? If not, no offense intended, but the Tin Foil hat thing seems kind of tongue in cheek.

Loot rebounds once activity levels head back down to previous levels- no active adjustments required. SC loves simplicity, and there's abaolutely no need for that kind of a system when the same results can be done in far more efficient ways with less outrage on the players' part. It just doesn't seem rational to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

I agree with most of your post, except this:


Come on, we all know this isn't the case. The reason they don't do it after updates is because they don't have those kinds of controls in place at all. The level of absurdity that this kind of theory implies would make it by far the stupidest thing SC has ever done. Highly complex systems that anger the player base with no real gains to the company (at least none that couldn't be accomplished in far simpler manners) just isn't how SC operates.

---

So they control the loot system how? They are not tweaking collector rates. Not changing league bonsus. That only leaves managing the search queue as a way to tweak the system.

I am not saying SC wants the loot to be ♥♥♥♥. They want it to be at that sweet spot. Not to easy, not to hard. So on a million dollar a day game they are leaving a huge piece of player satisfaction to random chance? Nah, they are tweaking it.


Edit: yes, half joking. But also being a little serious. Its been a long time since they made a change to the loot system. And I cant believe they just let the loot system run wild. Too much real money is at stake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beancounter

So they control the loot system how? They are not tweaking collector rates. Not changing league bonsus. That only leaves managing the search queue as a way to tweak the system.

I am not saying SC wants the loot to be ♥♥♥♥. They want it to be at that sweet spot. Not to easy, not to hard. So on a million dollar a day game they are leaving a huge piece of player satisfaction to random chance? Nah, they are tweaking it.


Edit: yes, half joking. But also being a little serious. Its been a long time since they made a change to the loot system. And I cant believe they just let the loot system run wild. Too much real money is at stake.

---

Run wild? Needing frequent tweaking? I disagree, the production of loot and player behavior (generally speaking) are both pretty predictable factors. In fact, I would say you answered your own question. You say they can't leave it to chance, then argue that there are tweaks being made. My belief is no, the randomness IS the "tweaks". It goes up at times, down at others (notably post-update), but yeah, I think random chance combined with the distribution factors I pointed out yesterday are capable of explaining the fluctuations we see on their own.

It's worth noting that I'm not arguing that SC doesn't have tight control over loot, rather I'm saying through production rates and fairly predictable overall behavior of players, there really aren't many curveballs that SC can be thrown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zachUVA

Come on, we all know this isn't the case. The reason they don't do it after updates is because they don't have those kinds of controls in place at all. The level of absurdity that this kind of theory implies would make it by far the stupidest thing SC has ever done. Highly complex systems that anger the player base with no real gains to the company (at least none that couldn't be accomplished in far simpler manners) just isn't how SC operates.

---

Several months ago, the SC developers gave an interview on Reddit, and they knew the total amount of resources in storages that day: 6.5 trillion gold, 8.4 trillion elixir, and 43 billion DE.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ClashOfClans...team_anything/

The SC developers must have some "dashboard controls" that easily snapshot the system-wide loot in storages. And if they have coded that, it should be trivial for them to snapshot the system-wide loot in collectors as well.

Zach, do you really think that SC can't easily change the algorithm that says how far inactive bases are pushed down the matchmaking queue? I'd be very surprised that SC couldn't dynamically change the algorithm.

Otherwise, how else would SC tweak the macro-economy, if they see system-loot going too too far in either direction? A temporary 1-gem boost could help if the systemic loot was too low, but how would SC tweak the economy if it was over-heating? As someone else also mentioned on this thread, I can't imagine SC would leave the macro-economy to chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zachUVA

I agree with most of your post, except this:


Come on, we all know this isn't the case. The reason they don't do it after updates is because they don't have those kinds of controls in place at all. The level of absurdity that this kind of theory implies would make it by far the stupidest thing SC has ever done. Highly complex systems that anger the player base with no real gains to the company (at least none that couldn't be accomplished in far simpler manners) just isn't how SC operates.

---

Oh, i didnt say i agreed with the idea, but if it were the case that is what i think they would do ..... i should changed the color to blue ( it was meant to be sarcastic )

however . . . i also wouldnt be shocked if it were the case either.

Maxed gold and elixir today. Probably wont have to farm for another few days. th9

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zachUVA

Run wild? Needing frequent tweaking? I disagree, the production of loot and player behavior (generally speaking) are both pretty predictable factors. In fact, I would say you answered your own question. You say they can't leave it to chance, then argue that there are tweaks being made. My belief is no, the randomness IS the "tweaks". It goes up at times, down at others (notably post-update), but yeah, I think random chance combined with the distribution factors I pointed out yesterday are capable of explaining the fluctuations we see on their own.

It's worth noting that I'm not arguing that SC doesn't have tight control over loot, rather I'm saying through production rates and fairly predictable overall behavior of players, there really aren't many curveballs that SC can be thrown.

---

Maybe. If you think about it simply tweaking the time it takes for a inactive base to be removed from the queue would have a big impact. We know they get removed, just not the conditions for it to occur. Loot is high they are gone at ten days. Loot is bad it takes 14 days for them to be removed.

Again, I think SC wants the player base to have a good experience. And I am sure they are not happy either right now. Happy customers spend money!

Anyways, we will never know!

There are always the inactive bases, but i feel that there is much less loot in general. Hurting big time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nesnnesn

Several months ago, the SC developers gave an interview on Reddit, and they knew the total amount of resources in storages that day: 6.5 trillion gold, 8.4 trillion elixir, and 43 billion DE.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ClashOfClans...team_anything/

The SC developers must have some "dashboard controls" that easily snapshot the system-wide loot in storages. And if they have coded that, it should be trivial for them to snapshot the system-wide loot in collectors as well.

Zach, do you really think that SC can't easily change the algorithm that says how far inactive bases are pushed down the matchmaking queue? I'd be very surprised that SC couldn't dynamically change the algorithm.

Otherwise, how else would SC tweak the macro-economy, if they see system-loot going too too far in either direction? A temporary 1-gem boost could help if the systemic loot was too low, but how would SC tweak the economy if it was over-heating? As someone else also mentioned on this thread, I can't imagine SC would leave the macro-economy to chance.

---

Of course they have statistics on these things, and they no doubt have the capability to alter their system for pushing back inactives. However, as I've previously said, all of this is untestable and masks other issues. Really, almost all loot issues could fall under the umbrella of that theory, in which case there's no point of even arguing about it.

As for overheating, that's precisely what their system prevents. Without production increases, and with quitters being cycled to the back (albeit at unknown rates), there's very little upward potential. To me, this micro-managing theory is just unnecessarily complicating the issue, while also dismissing other real factors that cause fluctuations.

Perhaps a somewhat crude analogy would be "God controls the weather.". Can we disprove that? No. Assuming God exists, is that plausible? Sure. Does that mean we should fire all the weathermen and forget about predicting it? No. That's basically my argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DK91

I don't come here often so can someone give me insight into the loot complaints?

1. Is this stuff just coming from TH9/TH10 players?

2. Are people who complain that the BARCH method/picking off collectors doesn't bring in loot dead set on that strategy or is going for storages also ineffective?

---

1. Not exclusively but the loot issues start to affect at TH9 and continue to TH10 affecting them particularly. (due to the loot penalty and the sheer cost of upgrades)

2. People are complaining about different things.

Inactives (collector raids) are an important part of the economy - how much of a part is open for debate. If you are saving up 7.5 mil for archers hitting storages for elixir is simply not effective. Which is why I started to train cheaper armies. Also, if a base looks inactive they are less likely to revenge you :)

There are several problems with collector bases. The most common complaint is that there are less of them. I would agree that it looks like it. A few months ago I could get one collector base each lunch hour from a TH10 with 3 maxed DE drills. Now I can go days without seeing a similar base (I'm in gold1).
The second complaint is that SC is hiding the collector bases ( because there is less of them). This is "true" depending how you look at it. SC has designed their matchmaking so that collector bases are not prioritised.
The community gets fractured as people start complaining and demanding more collector raids and others argue that they should be attacking storages.

My experience is that there are still plenty of collector bases. The problem is that those bases do not have maxed collectors and therefore I am seeing more and more bases that do not cover the raid of a barch army to get the loot.

Storage raids.
From my point of view the bases with the best raids are TH10..... but these are protected by Infernos. To get to centralised storages in anycase I need a good army that usually cost both time and resources. The reality is that in Gold 1, for example, that I end up nexting through lots of TH7s and some TH8s ( also a problem in Crystal 3) just to get to bases worthy for my army. I moved up to crystal to find more consistent bases that were TH9 but from what I could see is that the TH9 bases there were dumping their gold into walls. Elixir was ok - but now people can put this into walls (I've yet to go up there again to see the situation) it may be that Crystal is only going to be viable for DE.... providing people aren't using it to make up for the lax of elixir troops

The problems here are - TH7s everywhere! Well not quite but where as I used to see fellow TH9s in gold 1 I am seeing more and more polaraised bases. TH7 with no loot and maxed TH10s with lots of loot but inaccessable to me. I chose to train cheap armies because they are more flexible. The TH levels are too inconsistent and so therefore is the loot.

There have been various suggestions to fix loot. Adding extra levels or more collectors are only going to help if people max them in the first place. People have requested that the win bonus is increased. And lets not mention clan wars. ...

From the player point of view it is has been suggested that we flatten all TH7s (loot or not) to send them back to a lower league where they belong and always provide collector bases with a shield.

People have also called for radical reforms to the 'win' system. This is to stop farmers from getting a cheap shield (and therefore hid loot) so that there will be storage raids available. A stop to the cheap shield system could also stop TH snipers. This is because, from proposals in general, they would not get a win bonus - or a great reduction to it making it difficult to make a profit and therefore less likely to remain in certain leagues.

Not sure if this has muddied the water further or helped somewhat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

Your storages are completely full?

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Yes 8 million each.

There is no loot problem guys...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bradleytjohnson1

Yes 8 million each.

There is no loot problem guys...

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can i ask what level your walls are, if they are below lvl8 . . . . or completely maxed at lvl11 . . . . you are one confused person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by badfish1979

So this is not your storage?

http://s8.postimg.org/sj9xyar4l/image.jpg

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Nice evidence. Loot is horrible. Lightning are horrible. The whole economics of supercell is horrible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by badfish1979

So this is not your storage?

http://s8.postimg.org/sj9xyar4l/image.jpg

---

Is that a townhall 9 with lvl7 walls, saying loot is great?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zachUVA

Of course they have statistics on these things, and they no doubt have the capability to alter their system for pushing back inactives. However, as I've previously said, all of this is untestable and masks other issues. Really, almost all loot issues could fall under the umbrella of that theory, in which case there's no point of even arguing about it.

As for overheating, that's precisely what their system prevents. Without production increases, and with quitters being cycled to the back (albeit at unknown rates), there's very little upward potential. To me, this micro-managing theory is just unnecessarily complicating the issue, while also dismissing other real factors that cause fluctuations.

Perhaps a somewhat crude analogy would be "God controls the weather.". Can we disprove that? No. Assuming God exists, is that plausible? Sure. Does that mean we should fire all the weathermen and forget about predicting it? No. That's basically my argument.

---

I suspect that SC has a system-wide aggregate loot range that they deem "balanced" (factoring in things like normal economy fluctuations, SC's business goals of player enjoyment, game longevity, etc.), and that SC doesn't usually manage the system-wide economy, unless the system-wide aggregate loot somehow leaves that range on its own.

However, unless a SC developer spills the beans, we won't know for sure whether/how much the economy is actively managed by SC. :p

P.S. Thanks for participating in this thread! It's always good to see a Mod actively taking part in forum discussions. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zachUVA

Perhaps a somewhat crude analogy would be "God controls the weather.". Can we disprove that? No. Assuming God exists, is that plausible? Sure. Does that mean we should fire all the weathermen and forget about predicting it? No. That's basically my argument.

---

tbh, I think your metaphor is somewhat dodgy, as is the assertion that this is untestable. Statistics is a meaningful form of mathematics. Your argument is based off of the paradigms of a philosophy class, and not off the logic of a mathematics class. (slightly different applications and proofs...) In point of fact, we the user can measure how many "nextings" it takes to find a dead base, and can actually see and measure changes in this. It must of course, be measured over a long period of time in order to be statistically significant, but it's kinda silly to say that we the user can't actually know and measure this stuff or that the results are meaningless... Granted, most are not actually doing the work that would be required for it, but it's absolutely measurable and knowable to anyone willing to put in the work.

edit... not claiming ive done that work... just tired of the dismissiveness of what can actually be known and measured,,,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Natesmiles

Is that a townhall 9 with lvl7 walls, saying loot is great?

---

♥♥♥♥, he brags how easy loot comes and doesn't even have half of my GG or EE. Busted with a lie. I had all skulls when I left TH8.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trellish

tbh, I think your metaphor is somewhat dodgy, as is the assertion that this is untestable. Statistics is a meaningful form of mathematics. Your argument is based off of the paradigms of a philosophy class, and not off the logic of a mathematics class. (slightly different applications and proofs...) In point of fact, we the user can measure how many "nextings" it takes to find a dead base, and can actually see and measure changes in this. It must of course, be measured over a long period of time in order to be statistically significant, but it's kinda silly to say that we the user can't actually know and measure this stuff or that the results are meaningless... Granted, most are not actually doing the work that would be required for it, but it's absolutely measurable and knowable to anyone willing to put in the work.

edit... not claiming ive done that work... just tired of the dismissiveness of what can actually be known and measured,,,

---

Are you quoting the wrong post? I'm arguing exactly the same thing as you are...

I believe in math and statistics above pretty much everything, but if you are claiming we can measure SC's prioritization of inactives in the queue, I think you are mistaken. We simply do not have the data to test such claims.

What we can test is exactly what you are describing: loot in each range and the number of nexts to get it. My argument is that the "SC changes loot at will" argument is thst we can only test the effects of this indirectly, ones that could be traced to dozens of other factors. It lacks any form of testable explanations. That theory I'm criticizing is what is being dismissive of the data, because it assumes such efforts are futile.

Edit: To be a little more clear, changes in loot are perfectly testable with enough data. However, all this data can tell us is whether or not loot has changed and in what direction. The claim by some people is that this is CAUSED by SC through constant manipulation of inactives. However, it is not clear that this is the only possible explanation (indeed it is clear that it is not), and there's no way to isolate this variable with any data we could realistically gather. Other variables such as distribution of inactives across trophy ranges (part of my distribution argument) can be measured and tested though! I'm simply saying it is better to work off of theories that are testable with a reasonable amount of data, rather than to accept a catch-all hypothesis that is impossible to isolate.

Yeah I just wasted 40 gems boosting... Next..netx..next....next...next... BAH

Why don't they fix this? I know most of their gems sales are noobs who don't know jack about the economy, but why not throw a bone to the raiders? There are enough raiders to increase their sales. I bought $5 of gems to boost, but that was a waste and I won't do it again if present situation continues. Assuming every other raider thinks like I do, that'd be a huge increase in gem sales....

But maybe the noobs take up such a large portion that they dgac.

(By noobs I mean the people that download the game, say hey, this takes too long, buy $50 worth of gems, gem to th9, then quit, or something similar)

At the moment it's not worth boosting. There are not really many big storage raids available.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

Are you quoting the wrong post? I'm arguing exactly the same thing as you are...

I believe in math and statistics above pretty much everything, but if you are claiming we can measure SC's prioritization of inactives in the queue, I think you are mistaken. We simply do not have the data to test such claims.

What we can test is exactly what you are describing: loot in each range and the number of nexts to get it. My argument is that the "SC changes loot at will" argument is thst we can only test the effects of this indirectly, ones that could be traced to dozens of other factors. It lacks any form of testable explanations. That theory I'm criticizing is what is being dismissive of the data, because it assumes such efforts are futile.

Edit: To be a little more clear, changes in loot are perfectly testable with enough data. However, all this data can tell us is whether or not loot has changed and in what direction. The claim by some people is that this is CAUSED by SC through constant manipulation of inactives. However, it is not clear that this is the only possible explanation (indeed it is clear that it is not), and there's no way to isolate this variable with any data we could realistically gather. Other variables such as distribution of inactives across trophy ranges (part of my distribution argument) can be measured and tested though! I'm simply saying it is better to work off of theories that are testable with a reasonable amount of data, rather than to accept a catch-all hypothesis that is impossible to isolate.

---

This is a very good conversation.

But the crazy thing is that the loot is so bad that people actually are theorizing that SuperCell has employees sitting in front of a computer actively manipulating how many inactives are in the game at any given time.

My take is that they don't actively manage inactives, however, I do believe they have automated systems in place that push inactives back in the process at certain points of time.

It is uncanny how every time the leagues end the farming goes immediately south. I am in the Pacific time zone so I am almost always farming when the seasons end, many times I will be getting fantastic loot (East Coast of USA is asleep, Monday in Asia so everyone's at school or work, Europe hasn't woken up yet) and the season will end and it will immediately dry up just as if they just released a huge update.

I had been having seriously bad loot the last few days but over the last 4 hours I have had such great luck, hit 6 inactive collector bases in the first two hours so I put on a boost in 2 barracks to do some more, hit 20 more collector bases in the boost period, all 200-650k combined resources, not sure if matchmaking is finally going back to normal or if I just had rediculous luck but either way I got a but load of skulls done in a few hours so I'm happy 😸

I'm a th10 in Crystal 2 by the way so not a little th8 who gets loot just for showing up haha

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

Edit: To be a little more clear, changes in loot are perfectly testable with enough data. However, all this data can tell us is whether or not loot has changed and in what direction. The claim by some people is that this is CAUSED by SC through constant manipulation of inactives. However, it is not clear that this is the only possible explanation (indeed it is clear that it is not), and there's no way to isolate this variable with any data we could realistically gather. Other variables such as distribution of inactives across trophy ranges (part of my distribution argument) can be measured and tested though! I'm simply saying it is better to work off of theories that are testable with a reasonable amount of data, rather than to accept a catch-all hypothesis that is impossible to isolate.

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Well let me help you a little bit with your distribution theory. I have two accounts - a TH10 and a TH6. I have had both accounts for about the same period time. Over a year and half each. The TH6 is obviously very inactive. Log into once in a while and sometimes I will not log in for months at a time. I consider that base a gift to the community lol. It has maxed out collectors and it gets farmed constantly (until it drops out of search queue).

The TH6 is at 1016 cups. The TH10 is at 2113. This morning my TH6 can next for 5-10 times before scoring a decent raid. Lots of inactive bases. I see mostly TH5 & TH6. The occasional TH7 or TH8. Even a TH9 every now and then. Unfortunately, most people at this level have ignored collectors. So even dead bases are not super profitable. Bu the account does not need much. A 80K gold raid will score me a pink wall. Not bad.

This morning I hit several big raids with my TH10. But I had to hit next. A lot. Well over 50-60 times each raid. The loot was dreadful. Base after base of 50-80 of each. And then you roll the lucky number and pull a collector raid. Bases mostly TH8, TH9 and TH10. The loot completely dried up around noon. I just got my TH shield and stopped playing. Just not fun.

Loots been a bit up and down but decent as a whole today for me. Knocked out 2 lavas today at work and will work on 2 more hopefully this evening. I did 2 lavas and 2 Lego's yesterday.

Loots of raiding and nothing to jump up and down at but still progressing decently. I try to win raids when I got 20+ min before I can raid again and losing if I'm able to raid right after especially if loot is small. Its working decently.

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Originally Posted by Smalls

This is a very good conversation.

But the crazy thing is that the loot is so bad that people actually are theorizing that SuperCell has employees sitting in front of a computer actively manipulating how many inactives are in the game at any given time.

My take is that they don't actively manage inactives, however, I do believe they have automated systems in place that push inactives back in the process at certain points of time.

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LOL! I never said there was a SC employee in the basement managing loot! That would be a crappy job! THe game is a giant program. Not a huge stretch that there could be certain parameters in the program that control release of inactives. Or maybe there are no parameters. And it just naturally balances itself out, except during periods of peak demand. Or perhaps Zachs theory of th ranges is the source.

Probably some combination I would think.

I was getting tired of all the threads complaining about loot

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

I agree, which is why I have been pushing for other sources of loot production to be buffed. The only way to move away from collectors is to move production into sources that require activity.

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Yes 'raiding game' in the sense of stealing from each other. 'Collector game' in the sense of popping bubbles to progress. This is why league bonuses are so great, yet so many disregard them to go farm other people's collectors or loot from someone's storages that was taken from collectors.

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Seriously? All loot in a base (meaning excluding league bonuses) comes from collectors (either directly or indirectly) and loot from league bonuses that that person has accumulated. It is unquestionable that the majority comes from collectors though. Why? Even in champions league where the bonus is 120k gold, if you attack 3 times an hour with a full barch army or something and win each raid, you are only getting 360k/hour off of the league bonus. Is that better than YOUR collectors? Absolutely. Is that better than raiding inactives? Not even close, and that's the point you are missing. Collectors are dominant for this reason.

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How profitable are those inactives during times when you are excessively nexting to get to them? The loot drain is then compounded by the amount of poor loot clogging matchmaking. So yes I believe there are times where barching the loot bonus can be more profitable (and more importantly less irritating) than inactive collectors, particularly when you are collecting active players unclaimed loot.

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League bonuses are not insignificant. If I have 1 successful raid in an hour my bonus has beaten my collectors given I recouped my costs in the raid performed. This is in C3 can't wait till I can sustain myself in higher leagues, teetering on C2 currently.

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As explained above, the league bonuses are something that is in addition to the loot that you win off a base (which is almost entirely derived from collectors). Think back to before leagues existed: loot was fine (better than it is now actually)! League bonuses are only relevant as a supporting factor in loot, and as long as farming inactives yields higher returns (which it clearly does), they can never be the dominant factor you keep making them out to be. That being said, the inconsistency of inactives (which I went into extreme detail on in a previous post) does make the league bonus more attractive because the league bonuses are unchanging. But this is a choice made out of frustration, not because it's actually the best option.

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The loot system was different back then. There have been so many changes to penalties, bonuses and percentages it is hard to keep track of. There surely were some tough times due to those changes, most notably the addition of penalties. Honestly though I do not think there has ever been a time where the end game THs were happy with their position in the loot chain.....

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Could you ask SC if they have seen a drastic return of former players due to the update? I would think this could be a likely cause for current woes. Increased demand and if that demand is temporary and waning then the economy will right itself. Putting a permanent boost into resource production to negate short term problems does not seem like the correct course of action as it would make the game too easy in the long run.

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Of course there is a player surge after updates, that's a well established fact. These loot woes happen after most updates, and the reasons you described are exactly why. But when you put these issues into the longer term trends, that's where I (and many others) see issues.

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I was suggesting that this surge was an abnormally large surge in comparison. This could create a larger and more drawn out drought.
Which long term trends?

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

Oh yes, I am definitely finding TH7's, TH8's, and TH9's in Master II right now. They are all over the place and that loot is just a tricklin' right into my storages!

:rolleyes:


On a serious note, 100% of the bases I have come across in M2 are TH10 (and trust me, I do a LOT of nexting). So how again does that loot from TH7 trickle up to all these TH10s if it does not trickle up leagues?

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Hmm come down to the lower leagues if you want trickle.:p I get it all day every day both ways and it's been like that throughout my clash life. If you want better loot for specifically your league, maybe increased league bonuses? Or do want easier loot in mines for everyone?

* looked at some of the nexts you've posted. There are alot of rushers are on that list who's only defense is no loot, they are out of their league. One guy I noticed had 3 of the new ATs going though...

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

My facts are straight. Level 11 came the same day TH 9 was introduced. Mines do not need to be exclusive to th9 to be for it's benefit. They were put in place to feed the new town hall from the THs it raided from. Judging from the release notes for TH9 can easily be inferred those collectors were for th9s benefit.

Town Hall level 9 added!

• New defensive turret: the X-Bow! This weapon shoots bolts of Elixir with a super fast rate of fire.
• New spell: Jump! Boost your troops over enemy Walls. Upgrading the Jump Spell allows even Giants and P.E.K.K.As to jump over Walls.
• P.E.K.K.A has a fearsome new look that can be unlocked by upgrading her to level 3.
• New upgrade levels for Cannons, Mortars, Wizard Towers, Spell Factory, Mines, Collectors and Storages.

Along with those new archer towers you also have 2 new elixir upgrades and likely heroes left also. Your daily gold requirement is 3.2mil if you only focus on those new towers at the exclusion of every other upgrade. And do you really think the intent is for everyone to have all new archer towers 16d after release?

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Originally Posted by Beancounter

Your missing the point: production remains the same for TH7, TH8 and TH9 - 432K a day. TH10 gets a slight boost to 500K a day. The cost to max a th7 is around 70mil. It is over a bil to max both TH9 and TH10.

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It's only over a billion if you factor in walls which are their own separate beasts. It's ~771,294,000 combined lix gold to go through th9 and 10. ~478,250,000 at TH10

Maybe you are missing my points.

TH10 takes 3 times as long as th7 to max out while requiring 3 times as many *daily resources as th7. That is not including heroes where if you include 10 levels (beyond 15) the time required is nearly 5 times as much

TH7-8 doesn't have high level collectors strictly for their own benefit. Those collectors also feed higher town halls. Level 11 mines were introduced for the benefit of TH9.

If those collectors did not exist at lower town halls those collectors would be less common as a lot of people do not go very far in this game.

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Do better collectors mean better storage raids? Those storages can empty out quicker leaving less to be taken from them for a longer period of time. Bigger collectors mean you can power raid to empty those storages sooner.

It's all a balancing act and I have not seen every aspect of the numerical game taken into account in these arguments for more loot. I'm fairly certain that the people in control have. :D

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This makes no sense what so ever. We already know what happens when production gets pumped up: from the one gem boost events. I think most people would say the storage raids are a whole lot better while the one gem boost is going on. Are you arguing that storage raids are terrible during that period?!

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Maybe I can help you understand how faster loot production could mean less loot in storages. Say you go from farming 1 mil an hour to 1.5 an hour. It previously took you 7 hours to get an upgrade but now it takes you 4.6 hours. This would lead to people being able to farm an entire upgrade without being put into matchmaking and when they did go into matchmaking they would have no loot.

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Originally Posted by Beancounter

LOL, what else is going to fill up stores? The loot fairy? Coathanger seems to think that stores just naturally fill up and collectors dont generate 95% of all the loot in the game.

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Collectors generate 95% of loot? What supports this assertion?:rolleyes: I'm going with PIOOMA institute, let me know though....

I dont know if it is my luck, but for town hall ten players, the loot is horrible. I used to get an easy 250k of each with 1k dark elixer but now I have to settle for less than 100k of each. My trophy count is 2050 and I am lvl 113 so its not like i have bad troops. I wish they could fix the loot system or just make the loot back to it originally was. FIX IT SUPERCELL!

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

And press the next button even more than I am now because of all the TH7-8s down there?
No thanks :p

We all know what happens with the economy during 1-gem boosts.
Increased collector production = better storage raids

And that relates to the fact that I have to press the next button on every single one of them.... how again?

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You can find th9's a plenty in mid crystal.
Come get your trickle.:p

You are asking for doubled production from mines? GL with that.
Is it a gut feeling that storages are significantly better or do you have the data?

You will always be pressing the next button on those villages. Their only defense is holding no loot.

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

Is it a gut feeling that storages are significantly better or do you have the data?

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Is it a gut feeling that "there is no loot problem" or do you have the data?

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

Is it a gut feeling that "there is no loot problem" or do you have the data?

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My evidence is SC's inaction maintaining the status quo based on their data. You are playing their game. Now show me yours.

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

You are asking for doubled production from mines? GL with that.

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No, I am not. If you actually read my previous posts, you might actually respond to what I'm really saying instead of creating straw man arguments.

Try looking:

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

1. Here

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

2. Here

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

3. Here

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

4. And here

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

My evidence is SC's inaction

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LOL - I'm not even going to attempt to respond to that, you got me!! :cool:

I don't need prior quotes. It was said in response to this one.

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

We all know what happens with the economy during 1-gem boosts.
Increased collector production = better storage raids

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Originally Posted by badfish1979

LOL - I'm not even going to respond to that! You, sir, are a comedian! :cool:

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So you have no evidence that storage raids are better during boosts....no wonder you wont respond. Wait you did respond. Wowzers.

hye all. . .i'm juz want to know how ur all get free gems:-). .somebody can teach me?!:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

I don't need prior quotes. It was said in response to this one.

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So because I use 1-gem boosts as an example of increased production leading to an improved economy and thus better storage raids, I am saying that all collectors need to have double production in order to solve TH10 loot problems?

Classic straw man.

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

So you have no evidence that storage raids are better during boosts....no wonder you wont respond. Wait you did respond. Wowzers.

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Yep, you got me with your evidence being "SC's inaction maintaining the status quo." Can't beat that :cool:

But if SC does take action by increasing production to improve the economy, that would mean you were wrong all along. The question is - would you admit it?

Hey guys! So actually loot has been pretty terrible for me as well as many other people! I have seen many threads describing how they can't find any bases with a decent amount of loot.. So this thread is directed towards the drought in clash at the moment.. Comment if you are having problems as well and hopefully we can have someone explain in detail a thought or opinion!

it's great in master

already many threads on this, combined in the "one and only loot thread".:confused:

I've been doing pretty well tbh got a few archer towers upgrading my queen is upgrading not a bad week.

Patience my god.

The stickies are your friend :cool:

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Originally Posted by Coathanger

How profitable are those inactives during times when you are excessively nexting to get to them? The loot drain is then compounded by the amount of poor loot clogging matchmaking. So yes I believe there are times where barching the loot bonus can be more profitable (and more importantly less irritating) than inactive collectors, particularly when you are collecting active players unclaimed loot.

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Lumping this in with the league bonus is totally illogical and you know it. We are supposedly talking about sources of loot, yet you keep throwing storage loot (which is almost entirely derived from collectors) in with the league bonus then saying that trumps collectors. Also, nexting costs should not be subtracted from the collector totals in this argument. Why? Again, the debate started over production; costs associated with finding inactives doesn't mean the loot produced is lower. I do grant you that nexting is a frustrating issue and leads some people to seek out the loot bonus, but again this doesn't mean that collectors are less important than the league bonus by any stretch of the imagination. Also, you have yourself admitted that relatively few people actually hunt the league bonus.

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The loot system was different back then. There have been so many changes to penalties, bonuses and percentages it is hard to keep track of. There surely were some tough times due to those changes, most notably the addition of penalties. Honestly though I do not think there has ever been a time where the end game THs were happy with their position in the loot chain.....

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You're kidding right? I'd say there haven't been more than a dozen or so loot changes in the history of the game, and all of them have been fairly easy to understand. Comparing loot across time is pretty easy, especially if you experienced it yourself.

Your last sentence I agree with, it's just a matter of severity. Personally I think it's on a bad path.

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I was suggesting that this surge was an abnormally large surge in comparison. This could create a larger and more drawn out drought.
Which long term trends?

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Abnormally large compared to Clan Wars for example? Doubt it.

Long term trends like I described in my super long post from yesterday. Things like distribution of inactives, effects of new loot system and the increased league bonuses. Also harder to measure factors like active to inactives ratios, average collector levels, and of course any potential behind the scenes changes with regards to pushing inactives back in the queue.

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Originally Posted by Lakersarebeast

it's great in master

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So how much have you been getting in masters? I've considered going up...

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Originally Posted by XxPrestigeArmyx

Patience my god.

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Maybe its just gold is wearing down?

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Originally Posted by XxA1xX

I've been doing pretty well tbh got a few archer towers upgrading my queen is upgrading not a bad week.

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What league? Town hall?