Economics of Clan Wars

I was just wondering about the economics of CWs and what the total effect is from an economics standpoint. I've roughed some of these numbers, but this that are close and in the ballpark.

Let's assume it's 10 v 10 clan war.

CW CC investment: estimated at 30K E and 350 DE (this obviously could be more or less depending on what specifically is requested). At 10 people, that would make the clan investment in CW CC's to be in the neighborhood of 300K E and 3500 DE. It's probably more in higher level clans, as one or ore witches are typical, so please forgive the estimates. This is a cost both sides incur to defend in CW.

CW Attk costs: Let's look at the cost of a Gowipe sort of raid, which is what I see 80% of the time at TH10 wars nowadays. That's about 400k E and 2000 DE for each attack. So for two attacks, that's 800k E and 4000 DE for each of the 10 players. Thats a total clan investment (10 members) of 8 mil E and 40k DE just to carry out 2 full attks.

Total Clan investment into clan wars: 8 mil E + 300K E = 8.3 mil E and 40k DE + 3500 DE= 43500 DE

FOR THE WINNING TEAM

PAYOFF: If you win, lets say your loot bonus is 900K each and 4500 DE for each player. That would be a total loot bonus for your 10 member clan of about 9 mil gold, 9 mil E and 45k DE. BUT, about 20%-30% of attacks often fail, meaning that the above amount would be reduced by those percentages. So a more likely clan haul would be 6.3 mil to 7.2 mil gold and elixer, and 31,500 to 36000 DE.

Comparing that to the investment, in victory, you clan comes out about 7 mil positive on Gold (great!), negative 1 million in E (Not great) and negative 10k in DE (not good). REMEMBER THIS IS WHEN YOU WIN.

Please feel free to play around with the numbers yourself. These are estimates based upon a largely TH 10 clan. Although that numbers may change some, I think the general results will still end up about the same.

Conclusion: It looks like CW is basically a means to gold grab at the cost of some elixer and DE.

FOR THE LOSING TEAM:

Now also consider that there are losers too. They have the same investment into the CW as described above, but as they lost, they only get 20% of their loot bonus. So if we award them 20% of what the winning clan got, their reward will 1.26 mil to 1.4 mil gold and elixer and 6300 to 7200 DE.

Comparing that to the investment, in DEFEAT, you clan comes out about 1.3 mil positive on Gold (OK), negative 7 million in E (OUCH) and negative 37k in DE (OUCH). This is alot of resources that go back to supercell and out of rotation.



It seems to me that CWs is Supercell's way of providing a fun cooperative feature to the game, but it also takes out a huge amount of resources from the game, regardless of who wins or loses. In a 10 v 10 war, it looks like Supercell pulls back in about 8 mil in E and 50K in DE, while giving out about 8.3 mil in gold. Maybe that's an ok exchange for gold, which is scarcer than E.

Just thought this was interesting, as I thought the upside for the players would be better than this.

Thoughts?

Oh, And I forgot there is another associated cost with clan wars....

the lost opportunity you had to use your army to farm for resources. 2 armies that could've netted you two 200k G/200k E/500de raids.

So that's an additional loss to you.

It's a waste of time. Peoples win records are nonsense because wars are mostly mismatched. My clan has been the smaller clan several times and so far we have been shut out twice in 14 matches. Many other match ups were unfairly favoring the opposing team. Now you couple in the fact that its a direct loss in resources especially for the higher levels.. Man I'm about done with war

I've always been in the mindset that it doesn't matter what it costs for my war armies, I will build what needs to be built to win the war.

I understand the concept of opportunity cost. However, my war armies are usually built overnight or when I'm not planning on playing anyways. So I don't lose out to any farming time, just the cost of elixir which is overflowing anyways.

Because it is a clan war there is by definition going to always be a winner and a looser (except in rare draws). So you need to do your loot distribution including both the winner AND losers to get the NET effect to the total economy of COC

This thread points out something that my clan mates do not understand.

They often clamor for more war. Partly because war is fun, but also because they say they love "the loot bonus."

Meanwhile, the bonus, as the OP points out, is mainly in gold. Often for heavy donators, like me, the loss in elixir or DE is quite extensive.

And, while 400-600k gold is a nice little haul for two battles, patient farming can yield that in 30 minutes (approximately), while a war actually takes two days (though, probably only three to six hours real time--depending how addicted you are... lol).

In three hours, a good farmer should be able to pull 1.5 million with bad luck, and much more than that with good luck.

All this, I guess, is to say I agree completely with the OP, though I'm not entirely sure it is "money grab" by Supercell... It might just be a poorly executed economic distribution system. Maybe they'll tweak it to be more fair.

The bigger question is this: How do leaders convince clanmates that Clan Wars are not really profitable and only really worth it from a "team building" and "fun" perspective?

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Originally Posted by Shadowof16

Because it is a clan war there is by definition going to always be a winner and a looser (except in rare draws). So you need to do your loot distribution including both the winner AND losers to get the NET effect to the total economy of COC

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I did, Shadow.

It seems to me that CWs is Supercell's way of providing a fun cooperative feature to the game, but it also takes out a huge amount of resources from the game, regardless of who wins or loses. In a 10 v 10 war, it looks like Supercell pulls back in about 8 mil in E and 50K in DE, while giving out about 8.3 mil in gold. Maybe that's an ok exchange for gold, which is scarcer than E.

The approx. net effect of a 10 v 10 CW as stated in my OP is Supercell giving out about 8.3 mil gold, but taking in 8 mil E and 50K DE. The winners basically just trades E and DE for gold, while the losers take a bath in the analysis.

CW is not about resources. boiled down, it is about winning.

CW does have benefits though.

1. It teaches teamwork. In a good clan, they work as a team, organizing who hits which bases, assisting with correct donations, advizing on base design, and how to pick up the slack if a few players get less that 3 stars.
2. Working in that team, the clan gets closer. They get to know eachother, they communicate. And lets be honest, a lot of game addicts out there could use that socialization right?
3. The pleasure of winning, as a team gives the players pride. The disappointment of loss gives the team a reason to practice tactics and improve strategies.

To me, CW is not about my loot. Its about the process. Its about the team. And it is about working together to win.


Sure, you can totally skip CW. I know there are plenty of clans and players who do not war. But if your clan does not war... you and your team are not getting those benefits.

I agree OP. I'm a near max defense (not walls) TH10, and this is how i view it.


Proposition: double elixir and dark elixir rewards.

Reasoning: I realize that most of the players are not TH10, and are wondering why i propose this. Aside from your evidence above, i spent TH1-9 bathing in elixir. It was never an issue other than times where i had just upgraded my TH; all other times it was overflowing.

Once you reach TH10 and push past "farming land (2000-2500)" an economical balloon raid using 5 spells still costs you ~300k elixir. Now you normally don't use 5 spells unless the opponent has sweet loot, but more often than not a "sweet loot" base is going to have 400-600k elixir.

The issue here is that with an economical loonion army you're still normally not getting all of the storages - 2-3 is more normal, thus your elixir gain in M1-3 is very slow and often a loss.

Result:
This would be meaningless to sub TH10 farmers who are bathing in elixir.
Would help sub TH10 players who participate in war and have recently upgraded TH level.
Would greatly assist TH10 players using expensive armies in and out of war to maintain resources.


TLDR; If you're TH10 farming in M1-3: army cost v. reward is near even. Wars are an added pressure to maintain elixir.

M3-1 = great for gold and DE
lower leagues = better for elixir

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Originally Posted by kristinepixie

CW is not about resources. boiled down, it is about winning.

CW does have benefits though.

1. It teaches teamwork. In a good clan, they work as a team, organizing who hits which bases, assisting with correct donations, advizing on base design, and how to pick up the slack if a few players get less that 3 stars.
2. Working in that team, the clan gets closer. They get to know eachother, they communicate. And lets be honest, a lot of game addicts out there could use that socialization right?
3. The pleasure of winning, as a team gives the players pride. The disappointment of loss gives the team a reason to practice tactics and improve strategies.

To me, CW is not about my loot. Its about the process. Its about the team. And it is about working together to win.


Sure, you can totally skip CW. I know there are plenty of clans and players who do not war. But if your clan does not war... you and your team are not getting those benefits.

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Totally agree with you on the benefits of CWs. I like to do them too. Loot is not and should not be the focus in CWs, but it is important to look at it to see what your participation is doing to the over health of your clan's resources. If it's sucking valuable resources from your clan, then it's hampering your clan's ability to upgrade and better itself.

If your clan lost the majority of it's wars, then you are probably doing a disservices to your clan by continuing to do them.

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Originally Posted by Beefdrop

I agree OP. I'm a near max defense (not walls) TH10, and this is how i view it.


Proposition: double elixir and dark elixir rewards.

Reasoning: I realize that most of the players are not TH10, and are wondering why i propose this. Aside from your evidence above, i spent TH1-9 bathing in elixir. It was never an issue other than times where i had just upgraded my TH; all other times it was overflowing.

Once you reach TH10 and push past "farming land (2000-2500)" an economical balloon raid using 5 spells still costs you ~300k elixir. Now you normally don't use 5 spells unless the opponent has sweet loot, but more often than not a "sweet loot" base is going to have 400-600k elixir.

The issue here is that with an economical loonion army you're still normally not getting all of the storages - 2-3 is more normal, thus your elixir gain in M1-3 is very slow and often a loss.

Result:
This would be meaningless to sub TH10 farmers who are bathing in elixir.
Would help sub TH10 players who participate in war and have recently upgraded TH level.
Would greatly assist TH10 players using expensive armies in and out of war to maintain resources.


TLDR; If you're TH10 farming in M1-3: army cost v. reward is near even. Wars are an added pressure to maintain elixir.

M3-1 = great for gold and DE
lower leagues = better for elixir

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I agree. At TH10, it's very hard to maintain elixer at a high level while also doing alot of CWs, especially if you donate more than your fair share to war CCs. My clan suspends wars while pushing, acknowledging the added strain it puts on the availability of elixer and DE. I don't expect ♥♥ to do anything to address this, as nobody is really complaining about it.

Clan wars shouldn't be done for economic gain,
it's a team game or sport, the thrill is in the 3 star victories, the chase, the win and the associated Kudos.

Incidentally, the economic effect on the higher level players in a clan can be much greater.
our clan has a range of TH7-9's
The CC's are populated by the 5 TH9 players and a number of the higher TH8's
The cost of donating of attacking CC troops can also be great, it's to the clans advantage if the best troops possible are donated, lots of lvl 6 balloons/giants, lvl 3 drags and pekkas etc
As a TH9 in my clan, the net result is a clan war can easily cost me 1.5m+ Elixir, whilst for me a win will return approx 700k.

barching gets old. it's fun to win and test strategy against new base designs (with no defenses upgrading and usually a full CC).

CW is all about winning. If you're worried about losing resources, then don't war. why do you care about 400k elixir or 2k DE when you can make it up in 1-2 raids?!

seriously, cost for the most expensive war armies (including defensive and offensive CC) can be easily regained in 1-2 raids. If sacrificing 30mins of barch build time is that big of a hassle and will change the course of creation for your village, you are doing a lot of things wrong.

I think some are missing the point of the thread.

There are certainly benefits to CW besides loot. The reason we farm is to have great troops and bases, right? CW gives us the opportunity to show those bases, troops, and our "skillz" off.

Still, the OP makes a powerful point, whether it means anything to you personally or not. The economics of clan war are not really in the players' favor. Supercell is taxing us for our wars, which is fine, because it is a business, and the service of CW is a good one, well worth the cost of some purple or black pixels.

But, ideally, they'd balance it out a little bit. And, moreover, it would be nice if all clanmates understood the economic realities of CW, especially the lower players who are grabbing max hogs or loons or wizards for their CCs while contributing not much of their own.

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Originally Posted by ILoveC0c

seriously, cost for the most expensive war armies (including defensive and offensive CC) can be easily regained in 1-2 raids. If sacrificing 30mins of barch build time is that big of a hassle and will change the course of creation for your village, you are doing a lot of things wrong.

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The more expensive CW armies will cost about 900k E for two raids. How are you making that back up in 1-2 barch raids? more like 3-4 raids.

And BTW, I'm not advocating that anyone shouldn't do CW. It's just good for everyone to be informed about the economic effects it has on the game so you can make a wise decision whether or not your clan wants to do them. My clan wars 3x a week. I'm active in those and routinely get my 4 stars, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a strain on my elixer at times.

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Originally Posted by FLGatorsEliteJu

I think some are missing the point of the thread.

There are certainly benefits to CW besides loot. The reason we farm is to have great troops and bases, right? CW gives us the opportunity to show those bases, troops, and our "skillz" off.

Still, the OP makes a powerful point, whether it means anything to you personally or not. The economics of clan war are not really in the players' favor. Supercell is taxing us for our wars, which is fine, because it is a business, and the service of CW is a good one, well worth the cost of some purple or black pixels.

But, ideally, they'd balance it out a little bit. And, moreover, it would be nice if all clanmates understood the economic realities of CW, especially the lower players who are grabbing max hogs or loons or wizards for their CCs while contributing not much of their own.

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"taxing"....it is more like trading resources. elixir and DE for gold. In my experience it is elixir for gold and DE. And since elixir is hands down the less needed resource, this is actually in-line with maxing a base (or progressing your account).

All upgrades to max level that cost elixir
(Mines, drills, spells, lab upgrades, army, utility buildings)
Elixir: 289,176,350

To get all walls to max level

Gold: 2,205,300,000

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Originally Posted by hill2302

The more expensive CW armies will cost about 900k E for two raids. How are you making that back up in 1-2 barch raids? more like 3-4 raids.

And BTW, I'm not advocating that anyone shouldn't do CW. It's just good for everyone to be informed about the economic effects it has on the game so you can make a wise decision whether or not your clan wants to do them. My clan wars 3x a week. I'm active in those and routinely get my 4 stars, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a strain on my elixer at times.

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my bad, 60minutes of barching compared to 30minutes.

Me and my co worker started a small 11 person clan filled with our friends, and they aren't very active in terms of farming, but all like clan wars so we war once or twice a week. I'm a level 84 TH9, and the next closest person is my co-leader who is a level 67 TH8, so it definitely strains my elixir since I'm donating almost all of the clan castle troops for the war. But... I think they are pretty fun. I BArch so much that it's nice to break up the monotony. Now that my army camps, lab, and spell factory are all upgraded (and iv unlocked witches) it isn't too hard to save up elixir since all I'm using it on is my lab upgrades and upgrading my DE drills.

I love CW and wouldn't mind my clan do CW non stop.. but i do agrree with OP's statements, it's very expensive and the reward don't cover the cost. SC should increase the CW rewards to make it more interesting.

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Originally Posted by ILoveC0c

"taxing"....it is more like trading resources. elixir and DE for gold. In my experience it is elixir for gold and DE. And since elixir is hands down the less needed resource, this is actually in-line with maxing a base (or progressing your account).

All upgrades to max level that cost elixir
(Mines, drills, spells, lab upgrades, army, utility buildings)
Elixir: 289,176,350

To get all walls to max level

Gold: 2,205,300,000

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This is a very good point and I totally agree. I was only saying that "ideally" it would be more even. But the trade is a probably a worthwhile one, when considering everything--fun, comraderie, etc--so like the vast majority, I'll do CW and enjoy. Still, it doesn't mean it is ideal. But what is in this world?

Meanwhile, your point further emphasizes another pet peeve of mine in the game... Walls cost too much!

Any truth to the rumor that the next update is going to lower their cost?

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Originally Posted by ForgiveMeNot

I love CW and wouldn't mind my clan do CW non stop.. but i do agrree with OP's statements, it's very expensive and the reward don't cover the cost. SC should increase the CW rewards to make it more interesting.

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I would love to see an official ranking page for different "tiers" of clans based on member numbers, "strength", etc

Or what I've seen in other games - big rewards for win streaks, total wins over a season

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FLGatorsEliteJu

This is a very good point and I totally agree. I was only saying that "ideally" it would be more even. But the trade is a probably a worthwhile one, when considering everything--fun, comraderie, etc--so like the vast majority, I'll do CW and enjoy. Still, it doesn't mean it is ideal. But what is in this world?

Meanwhile, your point further emphasizes another pet peeve of mine in the game... Walls cost too much!

Any truth to the rumor that the next update is going to lower their cost?

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respeckt!

I think they will stay the same to milk the top 0.1% for all they are worth.

I like clan wars. In our early wars, I was a late stage th8 with overflowing pink due to wall farming. I filled most war castles myself for 45x45 wars from my two accounts. Then I provided most of cc troops for war. I would drop millions upon millions on wars. But I did not mind. I did not need the pink. I did not even mind missing out on farming time. These days I rarely need to do much for war castles or war troops, as my clan has leveled up. I do give out max witches and such, but I spend a lot less per war.

However, I do think both the win bonus and the lose bonus should go up. The OP is correct that wars are costly and rewards rarely cover the expenses.

I run a weaker clan that only has like 6-7 people above level 70 and none of us want wars because it costs so much, but all of our low level members are screaming for more wars. I have now taken my mini account and created a war clan that will fight using only sub level 50 so we get weak clans with the exception of 1 player with high level troops to donate. This player rotates every war so the low levels can make money, but the high levels don't loose money.

Sub level 50 wars are more fun

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Originally Posted by EliSmith

Sub level 50 wars are more fun

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I would think so. Three starring opponents is always fun. So many ways to do it too.

But then again, eeking out 50% and getting to a TH of a maxed TH10 base for two stars is pretty intense too.

Also to add on, I still do farm during my CWs. I usually don't attack till the last 6-8 hours or so, so I'm farming as usual the other 40-42 hours of the war.