GameDesign - Informed vs. Uninformed decisions in game

I would like to hear other HayDay players oppinion on this subject, because something that annoys me greatly in HayDay is the extreme favoring of uninformed decisions in the game. I'm curious if other players feel the same.

To clarify the concepts, by an uninformed decision I mean one where we don't know the (exact) outcome of the decision. An example of this is the town customers, who come asking for some products, and while we know that we will get some reward if we fill (all) their requests, we don't know what the reward will be - we may get a valuable red brick or map piece, or we may get a useless axe or tar bucket. The equivalent informed decision would be telling us up front what special gift the customer is carying - then we would be able to decide for ourselves whether we find the "price" worth paying for the gift.

Here's a list of notable uninformed decisions in HayDay:

• Not knowing what gift we will get from town customers
• Not knowing what items they will want in the second and/or third store when deciding whether to fill their request in first store
• Not knowing what voucher we will get from filling jewelry or bar truck orders
• Not knowing what voucher we will get from filling boat completely
• Not knowing what personal reward goals are when doing events
• Not knowing what kind of fish that bites the lure (while some can be recognized by size/behaviour/habitat, many can't)
• Not knowing what items hide in locked red chests

I want to point out here that uninformed decisions are not the same as random features. The WoF is a random feature, the misery gift catalogue is a semi-random feature. There can of course be overlap between the two (you could say that the type of fish we catch is random) but an important point is that you combine the two - for instance, we could have a fishing system where we knew what fish we were catching but still kept the random element of the weight of the fish.

The problem with uninformed decisions are that they create frustration. On the other hand, informed decisions promotes strategy and challenge in the game. For instance, with the current fishing system, if I want to catch an Asp, I need to use a purple (or gold) lure and have middle circle bite. However, purple lure/middle circle also matches Rainbowfish, Bluespotted Sunfish, Arctic Char, Green Sunfish and Longear Sunfish, and neither of these fish have a behaviour that significantly different from each other - and they all live in all areas. So all I can do is throw out a lure and hope for the best. If instead each of these fish lived in distinct areas, they game would offer me the opportunity to actually control which fish I catch - saving me the frustration of losing a valuable lure on a fish I don't need. Furthermore, this would add the challenge of learning which fish live where, which will make the game more fun. Of course, the random element of the weight could still be there, making certain that if I want both bronze, silver and gold weight, I'll need time, perseverance and luck - thus securing the longevity of the game.

Imo. most of the currently uninformed decisions could be changed directly into informed decisions without changing much else in the game. Why can't we know upfront what voucher the truck order or boat order will give me? This will make it much more meaningful for me - I might decide to actually fill a challenging boat order if I know I get a valuably voucher, instead of just sending it away - something that's even more relevant now that town consumption means that 9/10 boats go down river empty. This would make game more varied and more fun. Sure, there are some features that would need an overall tweak, but don't they need this anyway - for instance, who ever pays 3 diamonds to open a red chest that will give you 1 (one) item which can well be an axe or saw? Obviously it doesn't make sense to tell us if a chest contains 5 diamonds and then let us pay 3 diamonds to open it, but perhaps chest prize should be lowered to 1 diamond and then chest also only contains 1 diamond (or perhaps 2 diamonds). Anyway, I'm getting lost in details here ...


So what do you think about the uninformed decision in HayDay - do they make the game more fun, or do they just cause frustration?

I wouldn't mind knowing the items townies want from each building in advance or the specific voucher a boat order will bring, since after selling two jams, a candy, & a pizza to a townie, I'm rather loathe to forgo that sort of investment, only to turn them away on the third building. Still a mallet isn't a knock your socks off, WOW reward either. Same for boat orders...4 crates of jam, cheesecake, & sugars are worth far more than a pitiful green voucher.

That being said, where would the mystery be if players knew what the contents of the chests were? As a non-diamond purchasing player, if I knew which chests contained them, why of course those would be the ones I concentrated on. The same would hold true for those on the hunt for tools or EMs. With that type of play in force, it would be almost a guarantee that SC would tweak programming to reduce the amount of items available to find, which IMO would add to frustrations. I imagine a good many players depend on the chests for daily freebies as do I.

I can certainly empathize with your fishing frustrations, even though I'm not a big lure fisher, but forgive me for having to say that as a avid fisher in RL, I had to giggle a bit at your fishing suggestions. If only it were so easy in RL! If I knew what bait to use precisely in which spot, my name would be in the record books for sure! Not making fun of your frustration or suggestions, but in the virtual world of fishing for digital pixels, Hay Day is pretty close to the mark. I, for one, vote to let the fish be fish. After all, throwing a lure out & hoping for the best is exactly what fishing is all about!

As far as vouchers for truck orders, there is a chart that gives the color of voucher most likely to be received for jewelry orders, and with regard to event prizes, I'm neutral on that. I've gotten my share of saws & dynamites for X amounts of cakes & cookies, but I've also gotten my share of gold vouchers & special decor items (not just the advertised global prize) from them too. If it isn't something that flips my wig, no big deal, it goes into storage or the RSS. Either way, I got it by doing something I would have been doing anyway.

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Originally Posted by LadyJEM5

That being said, where would the mystery be if players knew what the contents were? As a non-diamond purchasing player, if I knew which chests contained them, why of course those would be the ones I concentrated on. The same would hold true for those on the hunt for tools or EMs. With that type of play in force, it would be almost a guarantee that SC would tweak programming to reduce the amount of items available to find, which IMO would add to frustrations. I imagine a good many players depend on the chests for daily freebies as do I.

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Yes, your point about the diamond chests are valid - that was why I suggested a "same for same" prize/yield on diamonds in chests, so that diamond chests would only be valuably when you found them unlocked - if a chest only contained 1 diamond and you paid 1 diamond to open it, balance would not disrupted by you knowing what was in it. I think there should still be a chance to find a chest unlocked, but point is no-one in their right mind ever uses diamonds to unlock a chest as it is now, so basically we have a game feature here where half of it is completely pointless.

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Originally Posted by LadyJEM5

I can certainly empathize with your fishing frustrations, even though I'm not a big lure fisher, but forgive me for having to say that as a avid fisher in RL, I had to giggle a bit at your fishing suggestions. If only it were so easy in RL! If I knew what bait to use precisely in which spot, my name would be in the record books for sure! Not making fun of your frustration or suggestions, but in the virtual world of fishing for digital pixels, Hay Day is pretty close to the mark. I, for one, vote to let the fish be fish.

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Well the game is not about realism - after all, in real life, pigs don't walk on after you strip bacon from them either ... The game should be about having most fun, and from a game-design point of view, the current fishing system doesn't make sense. I mean, why bother having different fishing areas, when the fish live in all of them? What's the point of having the picture of the waterfall behind some fish and the picture of deap water behind others when the fish live in all areas? After all, even in real life, some fish live in some habitats, while others live in others. But I appreciate your input, but as one who uses a lot of time lure fishing, I can only say the current same not only seems illogical but also has caused me immense amounts of frustration.

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Originally Posted by alcibiades

Yes, your point about the diamond chests are valid - that was why I suggested a "same for same" prize/yield on diamonds in chests, so that diamond chests would only be valuably when you found them unlocked - if a chest only contained 1 diamond and you paid 1 diamond to open it, balance would not disrupted by you knowing what was in it. I think there should still be a chance to find a chest unlocked, but point is no-one in their right mind ever uses diamonds to unlock a chest as it is now, so basically we have a game feature here where half of it is completely useless.

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Forgive if I seem particularly dense, although it is the wee hours where I am, but would not a one for one prize/yield be equally pointless? Why would a player spend a diamond to get a diamond? Perhaps I'm missing something because I don't spend diamonds to open chests, but I was under the impression that for those that do, the paid chest always contains an item. I myself wouldn't necessarily call 3 or 5 (I'm not exactly sure which it is) diamonds for a saw a great bargain, but when a roll of tape costs 8 to get an upgrade, then it would be worth consideration.

I guess everyone is different, I can see your point but I like the surprise of the 'uninformed' decision. When I get something good it feels more like a win. Maybe I'm not really a serious player.....

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Originally Posted by LadyJEM5

Forgive if I seem particularly dense, although it is the wee hours where I am, but would not a one for one prize/yield be equally pointless? Why would a player spend a diamond to get a diamond?

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That's exactly the point, it needed to be so that you wouldn't be able to harves indifinite diamonds by going for all the locked chests with diamonds in them. This way, you would still get the occasional diamond rewards from open chests with diamonds in them, while closed chests with diamonds in would just be "blanks". However, this would make opening chests with diamonds an actual option when content was not diamonds, but perhaps some BEM or SEM that you needed, or just gold.

I actually prefer not knowing. What fun would it be knowing exactly what ur going to get? The element of surprise would be taken out of the equation and the game would be mundane, IMO. Not knowing forces u to try. The end result might not be what u had hoped for but if u knew what the outcome would be...a green voucher from boats, an axe from the townies, u wouldn't even attempt to complete the task at hand.

Totally opposed, though I certainly support your right to this opinion. Someone in a thread a few weeks ago mentioned the psychology of indeterminate outcomes. Something about how rats? pushing a button for food will grow weary of the exercise if food drops every time, but will remain engaged if the drops are sporadic. The element of surprise is part of the charm, IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Haystacker

I actually prefer not knowing. What fun would it be knowing exactly what ur going to get? The element of surprise would be taken out of the equation and the game would be mundane, IMO.

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Not sure I agree with this - for instance, for many months before the town update I used the voucher spreadsheet which ment I pretty much always knew what voucher I would get from my truck orders - which was awesome. Sending away green vouchers and filling the others was much more satisfying for me, and trust me, the excitement was not less each time I got an order that gave me gold voucher - even when I know in advance that was what I would get.

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Originally Posted by Haystacker

Not knowing forces u to try. The end result might not be what u had hoped for but if u knew what the outcome would be...a green voucher from boats, an axe from the townies, u wouldn't even attempt to complete the task at hand.

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I disagree with this - quite on the contrary, as things are now, because I don't know, I will throw away any order/customer that is bad/challenging - without trying. On the other hand, if I know I would actually get a very desired item, I might just consider filling that sugar boat, or whatever the item at hand is.

As game is (for me) now, I already make the decision only to fill some orders/customers - I just make the decision on an uninformed basis. That for me is unsatisfactory. But I appreciate your feedback and realize that we (as: The HayDay players) have many different approaches to the game, which is also why I started this discussion to hear how other players feel about this.

alcibiades, this is one of the more thoughtful and better presented game behavior change threads. So thanks for that.

But I wouldn't want such a change, either. I find that I am generally opposed to the "I have an idea to make the game easier" threads. In this case, you're basically asking for it to be turned into a trivial choice of "Do I want to trade 6 popcorn for a handdrill?". No thanks.

There is strategy to the town. Keep a log of your townies and try to find behavioral patterns. Or pay attention to the amount of XP they give: I was super excited to finally get my beach cafe, but now never import somebody to it since the XP is just so freaking low to be not worth the trouble. In what I call the V2 town (from server update on Jun-6 until today), I find that Salesman has 71% chance of giving town expansion items, whereas Locals just 52%. So yeah, you can strategize, but it's harder. But I like that. And there is certainly planning: do you want to import one more person to the last spot in the spa, even though in 45 minutes somebody will free up in the diner and need to go to the spa?

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Originally Posted by alcibiades

Not sure I agree with this - for instance, for many months before the town update I used the voucher spreadsheet which ment I pretty much always knew what voucher I would get from my truck orders - which was awesome. Sending away green vouchers and filling the others was much more satisfying for me, and trust me, the excitement was not less each time I got an order that gave me gold voucher - even when I know in advance that was what I would get.


I disagree with this - quite on the contrary, as things are now, because I don't know, I will throw away any order/customer that is bad/challenging - without trying. On the other hand, if I know I would actually get a very desired item, I might just consider filling that sugar boat, or whatever the item at hand is.

As game is (for me) now, I already make the decision only to fill some orders/customers - I just make the decision on an uninformed basis. That for me is unsatisfactory. But I appreciate your feedback and realize that we (as: The HayDay players) have many different approaches to the game, which is also why I started this discussion to hear how other players feel about this.

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I understand the excitement of knowing which jewelry order produces the gold voucher. I'm sure a lot of players exploited those 3 bracelets orders and banked on countless gold vouchers. But it was an obvious glitch SC did not intend and was subsequently fixed.

The TEMs the townies give are obviously much sought after. But for me, I'm not filling orders just for the gifts. I do them for the reputation points to level up. The gifts are just a bonus for trying. I have yet to send a townie away for that reason. But if u don't try, how would u know the gift wouldn't be the one that ur seeking?

The element of surprise is probably what SC is banking for players to keep playing this game. If everything were laid out in front of me, I'd honestly be bored.

FWIW, I'm in complete agreement with Haystacker on this. Alcibiades states his? case very well, as always, and I can totally see how this would enhance his? Enjoyment of the game.

Hard to please everybody. :)

This is an interesting take on game play. I had not really considered this alternative of decisions. After reading your OP and thinking it over, I prefer the way it is now, as for me personally I find that funner. As for the town, I fill their orders, all of them. I have a personal goal to not send anyone away (we'll see how long that lasts) but that is my personal goal and so far no one has been sent away. I don't really mind what they give me. No tool is useless, as I can always sell whatever I don't need because what is useless to me is useful to a neighbor. As for vouchers, I like the surprise there too. I like the anticipation of what voucher will appear. It's fun for me. I guess I like the surprises of not knowing what prizes await me. :)

Great discussion so far! I think everyone has made some excellent points.

I think it’s pretty obvious WHY the game is set up the way it is. The game is designed to highlight people’s desire to complete small tasks, and take advantage of their impatience, or their perceived urgency to complete a task. So it sets up barriers (time restrictions, or random elements), and then offers you a convenient way to circumvent those barriers (diamonds). You don’t HAVE to pay real money to buy diamonds (I am level 71 and have never spent a penny on the game), but the game is set up to provide a fun experience that very gently compels you to do that. The random elements are just another barrier the game has created to slow players down. Some of the changes you propose in this thread would be very counter-intuitive to that business model.

For my part, it’s always been my perception that when I complete a boat, or a jewelry order, I get a certain amount of XP and coins. That is the known reward for completing that task, and I know it in advance. The voucher is a *bonus* that comes afterward, and it is a random prize. The same could be said of the Town visitors. Before I serve them, I know how much coins and Reputation I will get, and can make that informed decision each time I serve them. Then if I should serve them completely I get a random prize.

Random prizes can be fun, or they can be frustrating, but that all comes down entirely to personal preference.

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Originally Posted by CheddarLimbo

Great discussion so far! I think everyone has made some excellent points.

Random prizes can be fun, or they can be frustrating, but that all comes down entirely to personal preference.

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My older daughter is DYING for a Mushroom House. She has been parked on the couch today, opening up all the treasure chests and mystery boxes she can find in search of the 25 diamonds it will cost. When she finds her diamonds, she can get the Mushroom House and it becomes her younger sister's turn to hunt diamonds for a picnic mat.

Miranda has been at it for HOURS, and was getting pretty frustrated with what she was finding: multiple bolts, 2 map pieces, 2 duct tapes, a drill, 1 set of bricks and 1 stone blocks -- until . . . . FINALLY --

8 DIAMONDS!!!!

She yelled the news out to us in a burst of JOY

Now she is back with a new attitude, opening boxes and chests one after another with a happy and motivated attitude. That kid will have her Mushroom House by the end of the day -- and it will be a JOY to her every time she sees it because she searched for it relentlessly, suffered emotional highs and lows as she opened the bolt etc boxes, and EARNED IT with her efforts.

Her sister is also pumped up and motivated to get on her search for 8 -- and a picnic mat.

We have more than enough diamonds to buy a dozen of these things. It is the PURSUIT that provides the PLEASURE in the reward :)

UPDATE: Miranda got her 25 diamonds and her mushroom house :)

2nd UPDATE: Sarah got her 7 diamonds and a picnic mat ;) Now she is after another chest of 8 diamonds for a fire hydrant :)

I'm picturing a somber Alcibiades in accountant eyeshade, poring over a tome of cobwebbed formulae, while perky's daughter dances around the room.

Maybe I've been nibbling on the mushroom house. :p

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Originally Posted by Lnrplxus

I'm picturing a somber Alcibiades in accountant eyeshade, poring over a tome of cobwebbed formulae, while perky's daughter dances around the room.

Maybe I've been nibbling on the mushroom house. :p

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:D

Thanx for the input, interesting to hear different people's takes and perspectives on things. I think you're not too far off with the formulae thing, I'm definitely one who likes to break things down in numbers. I also think that's why it was so hard for me to ignore the voucher spreadsheet once we "cracked" the system. As per the user above who called it "exploiting" the system, I don't really think that's true - after all, even with full knowledge of all truck orders, we can't control which orders are given to us, so it's not like we can just get "countless" gold vouchers - if we could ourselves control which orders came up, I do agree game would indeed be trivial.

I definitely wouldn't classify that as exploitative behavior. I'm spreadsheety in a number of contexts, but in this game, I mostly just poke at the pretty pictures and see what happens. :)

I enjoy hearing your take on the game. I totally get where you're coming from.

Enjoy your heartless corporate mega-farming. ;)

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Originally Posted by alcibiades

:D

Thanx for the input, interesting to hear different people's takes and perspectives on things. I think you're not too far off with the formulae thing, I'm definitely one who likes to break things down in numbers. I also think that's why it was so hard for me to ignore the voucher spreadsheet once we "cracked" the system. As per the user above who called it "exploiting" the system, I don't really think that's true - after all, even with full knowledge of all truck orders, we can't control which orders are given to us, so it's not like we can just get "countless" gold vouchers - if we could ourselves control which orders came up, I do agree game would indeed be trivial.

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I completely agree with LadyJEM, Haystacker, Cheddar, and all the others who indicated they like the element of surprise when receiving the gift from townies. It's also fun finding out what color voucher I received for filling my boat order a jewelry or bar truck order. Yes, I can be slightly deflated if it's another green voucher, but those can be useful, too.

Same goes with the red boxes on our farms, and now the pirate box in town...fun to see if we get an unlocked box, and if so, what might we get from that box? As another poster noted, if it's not something we can use ourselves, we can put it in our RSS and there will definitely be someone who will need it and buy it.

I do understand that it is a good feeling to know if you are putting your effort into something that will be worthwhile, and in RL, there are things about which I want more info so I know whether it is worth it to put forth any effort toward the task, but since this is a game, I prefer the fun of the element of surprise in those issues which the OP would prefer a more definite outcome prior to engaging in the required tasks.

The element of surprise is what I like too. And we must be the majority because at least here in the US,more and more cities dropped their prohibition on gambling casinos and raffles or lotteries. While I found it annoying when my brother in law bought us all dollar lotto tickets for Christmas, my tune might have changed had I won the jackpot at least once. Look how many people play slot machines. No matter how many coins they drop in, the never know if the next one will be the winner. Most of the time they go away empty handed. That doesn't happen here. We always get something. We may not want what we get but it's better than slot machines.

Every time someone complains about getting an axe, or mallet, I cringe. So many times I would have traded anything for an axe or mallet. People complain that they don't get maps or paint buckets, but soon, those things will be useless and another panel will be more coveted. The town can only expand so far and then unless you ignore it completely you can count on tons of people complaining that "all they get now is map pieces. Where are the BEM or SEMs at". Everyone wants what they don't have, but to complain on the forums that the game NEVER gives good things is just wrong. It is just that your definition of good things and mine are different.

This has been an interesting thread and so full of intellectual ideas that my head hurts. But I like it. No complaining just an interesting analysis of the game. But it is a game of chance and unlike some games,no one loses. So I guess small disappointments in the random events can be thought of as small losses, but at least we don't have to start all over.

tl;dr. Are you calling for a slot machine in the town? I like that idea. :D

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Originally Posted by Tiggerr129

The element of surprise is what I like too. And we must be the majority because at least here in the US,more and more cities dropped their prohibition on gambling casinos and raffles or lotteries. While I found it annoying when my brother in law bought us all dollar lotto tickets for Christmas, my tune might have changed had I won the jackpot at least once. Look how many people play slot machines. No matter how many coins they drop in, the never know if the next one will be the winner. Most of the time they go away empty handed. That doesn't happen here. We always get something. We may not want what we get but it's better than slot machines.

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Originally Posted by Lnrplxus

tl;dr. Are you calling for a slot machine in the town? I like that idea. :D

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Why stop at one? Let's get a casino for the town! Sparkly lights on the outside, craps tables, slots and bingo on the inside! :) Call it "Lucky Acres" lol.

But all in all this is a good thought-provoking thread and I like those best :) It's been good reading to see all of the ideas and play preferences.

To the OP, you can call it what you want and define it how you want: uniformed, informed, whatever...you are basically saying a lot of the randomness should be eliminated and it is frustrating to not get WHAT you want WHEN you want it. Such as life. Without the randomness there would be no need for diamond purchases from SC, they would go out of business, and the servers' plugs would be pulled.

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Originally Posted by maxell

To the OP, you can call it what you want and define it how you want: uniformed, informed, whatever...you are basically saying a lot of the randomness should be eliminated and it is frustrating to not get WHAT you want WHEN you want it. Such as life. Without the randomness there would be no need for diamond purchases from SC, they would go out of business, and the servers' plugs would be pulled.

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Exactly what you said. If we got what we wanted all of the time, there would be no fun. SC would lose business and there wouldn't be a game to play at all.

I'll keep my response brief and direct it to SC/Hay Day: (cue music) "I love you just the way-y you are!" (Enter saxophone)

ok ok maybe it's too late at night to continue posting!

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Originally Posted by Neen

I'll keep my response brief and direct it to SC/Hay Day: (cue music) "I love you just the way-y you are!" (Enter saxophone)

ok ok maybe it's too late at night to continue posting!

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:). Go to bed Neen!:)

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Originally Posted by maxell

To the OP, you can call it what you want and define it how you want: uniformed, informed, whatever...you are basically saying a lot of the randomness should be eliminated and it is frustrating to not get WHAT you want WHEN you want it. Such as life. Without the randomness there would be no need for diamond purchases from SC, they would go out of business, and the servers' plugs would be pulled.

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No, I'm not going against randomness. I'm fine with town visitors offering a random item. If I could decide "now I want all my town visitors to only give me maps" game would be trivial. I'm also fine with randomness on boat and truck orders. If I could decide only to get, say, Jelly Bean or Diamond Ring truck orders, game would also be trivial.

Certainly there are places where I wouldn't mind less randomness, particularly the random-disguised-as-not-random of what type of fish we catch (but not the weight - that should be random), but like I also pointed out in the original post, you can have an informed and random game.

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Originally Posted by Tiggerr129

The element of surprise is what I like too. (...) Every time someone complains about getting an axe, or mallet, I cringe. So many times I would have traded anything for an axe or mallet.

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Excuse me, but this to me is just hyperbole. There are certainly times where I also have been willing to trade for a Mallet or even an Axe, but not anything. I bet that goes for you also - otherwise, please add me as your GC friend so we can trade some more ... The whole point is about what you give measuring up to what you get. When that's not the case, you feel robbed and that causes frustration. I'm fine with hoping for a red brick and getting a stone block. I'm even sort-of fine with getting a stone block ten times as often as I get a red brick, although I do think that's a somewhat unnecessary restrictive element.

But things in game don't have the same value - and here I'm not talking about the supply-and-demand value (as: Bricks being more "valuable" than stone blocks because they drop in lower numbers and/or are needed for more important buildings), but actual value, as in an axe having a gold value of 10 while a stone block - or a brick - has a gold value of 95. This means, from a very literal point of view, if you get an axe instead of a stone block, you lost the draw.

Now I fully appreciate that we look at things differently, and that's why I started the discussion, to get other peoples perspective - some of us clearly are "glass is half-full" people (not me) and see anything above the axe as a win, whereas others are "glass is half-empty" people (like me) and see anything below the stone block as a loss. And hooray for the difference, because variation is the spice of life - but from my point of view, and judging from the amount of frustration I see in the "misery gift" threads etc. Supercell might lean too far towards the uninformed decision side - but perhaps I am indeed in the minority - after all, it's a wellknown fact that moaners always make the most noise.

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Originally Posted by PerkyCox

UPDATE: Miranda got her 25 diamonds and her mushroom house :)

2nd UPDATE: Sarah got her 7 diamonds and a picnic mat ;) Now she is after another chest of 8 diamonds for a fire hydrant :)

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Aaaaw what a lovely story! Please tell Miranda and Sarah that I'm really happy for them - well-deserved! x

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Originally Posted by alcibiades

But things in game don't have the same value - and here I'm not talking about the supply-and-demand value (as: Bricks being more "valuable" than stone blocks because they drop in lower numbers and/or are needed for more important buildings), but actual value, as in an axe having a gold value of 10 while a stone block - or a brick - has a gold value of 95. This means, from a very literal point of view, if you get an axe instead of a stone block, you lost the draw.

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I guess if you are looking at how much coin you can get for each actual item, then an axe would be a lesser prize than a stone block. However, one might look at it this way: Axes are used to chop down your raspberry and blackberry bushes. If your farm is so packed with something in every space and you need to chop down one of those bushes so you could plant another, an axe would be quite valuable as the items you could make with the harvest from just that one bush could bring you quite a tidy sum of coins.

I enjoy playing a hidden object game that usually provides nice rewards when you find everything on the list. However, there are times when you do find everything, and you get nada, zero, zilch after spending not only your time, but your energy resources, as well, and maybe even also spending a special item to remove an anomaly. Now THAT is frustrating and a definite loss. :/

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Originally Posted by PerkyCox

UPDATE: Miranda got her 25 diamonds and her mushroom house :)

2nd UPDATE: Sarah got her 7 diamonds and a picnic mat ;) Now she is after another chest of 8 diamonds for a fire hydrant :)

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Woo Hoo Miranda and Sarah!! Way to go!!

What a great lesson they learned...hard work pays off. :)

Wonder if they found my diamonds...I haven't found any yet. :p

I think the key here is distinguishing between what we can and can't actually control.

For example, seeing what voucher we would get from a jewelry order wouldn't change the fact that we have no control over how often that specific voucher turns up. If the ratio for vouchers is, for example, 4/3/2/1 from green/blue/purple/gold, the gold voucher is still only turning up 1/10 times, and the times it does turn up it's going to be exciting still.

Same with boats, gold vouchers will turn up at exactly the same rate- and they're actually more exciting this way, because you have the anticipation of filling the boat and knowing there's a good prize at the end.

This adds more strategy too, since the value of the voucher is a known quantity now, and factors into whether the boat is worth it. Normally, I'd send away cream/sugar boats, but if I see there's a gold voucher at the end- I might be more likely to fill it. The randomness is totally in effect still, since I have to wait 4 hours between boats even if I send them away all the time. This won't suddenly create a glut of gold vouchers, but it would reduce a lot of frustration.

The town is a similar story. If bricks only show up 1/20 visitors, that ratio will not change. But if the guy who wants to see beach café/spa/B&B is offering a brick, I might send him through- even though he wants a ton of ♥♥♥♥. Or alternatively, seeing what they want BEFORE they go into a shop- it's still random, you have no control over what they want- you can just see it before you commit to them.

I think people are missing the point between getting rid of the randomness, and making the randomness a little more transparent so you can see what's going to happen before you make a decision. The chests and fishing are absolutely fine, getting materials through your farm needs no change, but boat/truck orders could definitely benefit from the vouchers being transparent IMO, and possibly the town could be a little more transparent too.

To finish with an analogy- what most people are seeing with this idea is a game of poker where you can see ALL the cards (which would be boring as anything). What the game is currently is a game of poker where you can't even see your own cards. I'm recommending opening it up enough so you can see your own cards, giving you a little more control over what's going on whilst keeping the randomness a strong factor.

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Originally Posted by alcibiades

Excuse me, but this to me is just hyperbole. There are certainly times where I also have been willing to trade for a Mallet or even an Axe, but not anything. I bet that goes for you also - otherwise, please add me as your GC friend so we can trade some more ... .

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I'm sorry but I rarely if ever speak hyperbole. I have Aspergers. I say what I mean and mean what I say. My family says I am wysiwyg. The most valuable item in this game is diamonds and I have hired Tom just for axes. Or saws, or mallets. And since I really hate being tied to Tom, it takes a lot for me to hire him. I've traded bolts for axes and deeds for mallets. So I stand by my statement.

My point was that people assume that what is valuable to you is valuable to me and what you deem useless I should deem as useless also. Just because you can't stand to get yet another axe, doesn't mean I don't want one. People were complaining like crazy that they were getting more BEM and SEM than TEM when the town first arrived. Now I have more blasted tar buckets than eggs . As soon as my kid gets her last building, I will be happy not to see another TEM until the next update. I am glad we get SEM and BEM in the town because to me a bigger barn or silo is more valuable than all the maps needed to expand the town. And that's not hyperbole either. I have room for all the buildings in the town without using a single map to expand. Yet everyone is crying because maps are hard to come by. And they want SC to change the game to suit them. I am glad it is the way it is. That way everyone has the chance to get what they want eventually.

My CG ID is always in my signature. But I only trade with my long time barn buddies.

Hi

What would you think if we only could see one of the 3 products of the next boat order, and we had to fill them all to see the next product needed, and then fill all the second product crates to see the final one?. That's the feeling I get from the townies that arrive at my town by the express train.

Before building the Beach Café, I always served all the townies, even the ones who asked for raw ingredients (and I don't fill any boat who asks for dairy, sugars, jams, lobster tails or fish fillets, and only do crop and jewelry truck orders). But I liked the town, and I was happy to sell them all my premium items.

But now almost half the visitors that I get want to go to three buildings, and most of them ask for 3 different kind of products in at least one building.

I don't mind not knowing the final prize that I'll receive, but I really would like to know all the items required before serving a townie.

That's why, after not serving any townies at all for 2 days out of frustration (and to give myself time to restock), I'm currently dismissing every townie that I get from every express train, and only serving the ones I can pick up using my personal train.

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Originally Posted by betantx

Hi

That's why, after not serving any townies at all for 2 days out of frustration (and to give myself time to restock), I'm currently dismissing every townie that I get from every express train, and only serving the ones I can pick up using my personal train.

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i am also on a restocking break and have totally changed my strategy. I'm generally filling only BnB and spa. So I pick regular train orders that go to those 2 and 1 more only and send the townie to the other one first. If I don't like the order there I send them off. I am in no hurry to change back to filling all orders and may never do so!! Slower accumulation of rps but not by much since the BnB and spa have the most rps by far.

I would be be totally bored if things were less random.

Thanx for you input Dysdave, I'm glad at least I'm not the only number-crasher or whatever it is we are, in the game. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Tiggerr129

The most valuable item in this game is diamonds and I have hired Tom just for axes. Or saws, or mallets. And since I really hate being tied to Tom, it takes a lot for me to hire him. I've traded bolts for axes and deeds for mallets. So I stand by my statement.

My point was that people assume that what is valuable to you is valuable to me and what you deem useless I should deem as useless also. Just because you can't stand to get yet another axe, doesn't mean I don't want one. (...) I am glad it is the way it is. That way everyone has the chance to get what they want eventually.

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Good for you that you are glad with the way things are - however, there's no reason to assume things would be worse or you couldn't play game you changed it if some aspects were changed. In fact, if you don't want maps, knowing which visitors gave maps would allow you to turn those away and allocate your resources to the ones giving axes, which would from an pure gain/loss perspective also be a benefit for you.

I fully accept that we disagree on this, so I'm not going to continue this discussion with the intention of turning you over to my point of view, but I just want to point out that what you say about different items being of different value to different persons exactly supports the ideas I'm promoting. I'm not saying we should get more of one specific item (which happens to be the one I want), I'm saying we should be able to know what we get. You say diamonds is the most valuable resource in the game, but again, that is situational - clearly, when you used diamonds to hire Tom to get you axes, you made an (informed!) decision that you valued axes more than the diamonds in this situation. And to continue the poker analogy, would you have done the same if Tom could only bring a random subset of items which you didn't happen to know in advance - and would you have found it funny if you did hire Tom, and then axes happened not to be on the list? But then again, maybe you would if you like to gamble, and I guess that's fine and just the difference between the ways we like to play.

I think this is all about how much you want to control things or not. I have been called a control freak by some people, so I can understand very well why some of you want to know what those customers will bring before starting to serve them.

Still, I think it's part of the charm of this game that some things can be controlled and others can't. Trying to control as much as you can, thinking ahead and organising, assessing the risks and acting accordingly, that's the brain excercise. On the other side, going with the mood of the moment, choosing a customer just because you like the character, investing your gift cards in a mystery package or not, and breaking your own rules, just because you feel like it, that's the light hearted, irrational part of this game. Fun, even to me. I would never invest any real money in a game of fortune in real life. But investing some pizza in a customer in my Hayday town? Or filling a dairy boat, just because it kind of looks like it could bring a golden voucher? :D

No, I don't think we should change the balance between control and random in this game. Supercell has done a great job in making a VERY addictive game. Wouldn't dare to presume we could do better.

happy farming
Greebie

There were times I wished I could know what voucher/town gift it will be before I invest my products. But little by little, I find myself enjoying the "suprises" very much. Now I can say in definite tone that I prefer the way it is now. Judging by the responses in this thread, I think majority of players believe in the same. So I'm not worried that SC will make a change :o

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Originally Posted by alcibiades

No, I'm not going against randomness. I'm fine with town visitors offering a random item.

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You are fine with visitors offering random items but not red lock boxes? That rationale is completely devoid of logic. Going back to your original list of uninformed decisions or 'random aspects of game that frustrate you':

Here's a list of notable uninformed decisions in HayDay:

• Not knowing what gift we will get from town customers
• Not knowing what items they will want in the second and/or third store when deciding whether to fill their request in first store
• Not knowing what voucher we will get from filling jewelry or bar truck orders
• Not knowing what voucher we will get from filling boat completely
• Not knowing what personal reward goals are when doing events
• Not knowing what kind of fish that bites the lure (while some can be recognized by size/behaviour/habitat, many can't)
• Not knowing what items hide in locked red chests

You might notice here that the first bullet point is something you have said you are fine with. My question to you would then be how come all the others included on the list are an issue? The OP is simply a post against random events that you have thus far been unable to research or find a pattern in so that you may forecast the eventual output. That is a random event, plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by maxell

You are fine with visitors offering random items but not red lock boxes? That rationale is completely devoid of logic. Going back to your original list of uninformed decisions or 'random aspects of game that frustrate you':

Here's a list of notable uninformed decisions in HayDay:

• Not knowing what gift we will get from town customers
• Not knowing what items they will want in the second and/or third store when deciding whether to fill their request in first store
• Not knowing what voucher we will get from filling jewelry or bar truck orders
• Not knowing what voucher we will get from filling boat completely
• Not knowing what personal reward goals are when doing events
• Not knowing what kind of fish that bites the lure (while some can be recognized by size/behaviour/habitat, many can't)
• Not knowing what items hide in locked red chests

You might notice here that the first bullet point is something you have said you are fine with. My question to you would then be how come all the others included on the list are an issue? The OP is simply a post against random events that you have thus far been unable to research or find a pattern in so that you may forecast the eventual output. That is a random event, plain and simple.

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First of all, you clearly have not understood the difference between uninformed and random. Those are not the same thing, as I tried to explain in OP, and like Dysdave did a perhaps better job than me at explaining further up on this page. I'm fine with customers giving random items, but I don't want to be uninformed about what I get - i.e. I want to know in advance what item they will give. Secondly, I never said every item on the list needs to be addressed, but I did list them as options, and as such I'm open for discussion of them.

Thirdly, the reason I drag red boxes into this discussion - and that is partially a detour from the original topic, but none-the-less connected, and since you bring it up, let me elaborate - is because red boxes is one of several game features that we could call dummy features - by which I means features that are there but don't serve the purpose they are put there for, or in the case of red boxes only do it partially. The red box has a dual function:

• It can be unlocked, in which case it gives you its content for free
• It can be locked, in which case you can choose to spend an amount of diamonds (currently 3) to open it

The first function obviously is fine - it's mana from heaven, no complaints about that. However, the second function is essentially useles because no-body in their right mind (who is just remotely familiar with the game) will ever use 3 diamonds to open a box whoes content you don't know, simply because there is an overwhelming chance of the content not matching the value of 3 diamonds and/or the content being something you don't have particular need of at that time.

The red box is not the only game feature that suffers from this issue - the daily "deal" offer in the paper and the rush function on most items suffer from similar issues, because who would ever pay 40 diamonds to rush one cherry juice or pay 3 diamonds to get 5 dynamite when you can just pay 15 diamonds and hire Tom for the day which will give you a much better returns in term of diamond spent per item?

Now one can speculate why SuperCell designed these game features the way they are. As I see it, there are only two logical explanations:

1. They designed them like that in order to trick new or unknowing players into spending diamonds in a bad way, or to get people to spend diamonds accidentally from mis-clicks
2. They designed them like that because they assumed balance would be different than it actually turned out to be and thought these choices would make sense in game

Now I can't prove which of these explanations are correct. If option 1 is the case, I hope they will at some point realize that tricking people into using "money" (in this case: Diamonds) may give you a profit on short term but will on long term give you dissatisfied users and thereby less profit. The fact that we did get a diamond confirmation button (even though it did take about a year and a half too long) at least seems to point in the right direction. Now I hope option 2 is the correct answer - after all, most of these features remain unchanged since they were introduced, and let's face it, game has changed a lot since then, so many features wouldn't do bad with a general check-up and tweaking.

So returning to my OP discussion about red boxes, the intend of what I wrote was to offer an outline of how one could make the second option of their function meaningful, and here my suggestion tied into the discussion of informed choices. If we knew what the box contained, and if the price of opening the box was reasonable (whatever that is), we might actually opt for paying diamonds to get the content every now and then. I'm not saying it has to be like that - one could change red boxes in other ways, or one could leave them like they are, but from a game-design point of view (and in my personal oppinion), having a game feature that is - conciously or unconciously - designed in a way so that it is not used, or only partially used, is bad game design, and something that should be adressed.

Can I just check that I have your definitions correct?

Something is random if it is generated by a random number generator and it is informed if you know the outcome in advance. So:
If each townie only gave a specific item (eg the teacher gave bricks, the strongman maps) this would be non-random and informed.
If each townie could still bring a range of items, but you could see what they had when they got to the station, this would be random and informed.
The current system is random (because each townie can bring a range of items) and uninformed (because we don't know the outcome before we try to serve them).

I tend to agree with those who suggest that having things somewhere between completely random and completely predetermined and giving partial information is the way to go. I think fishing is a good example of this. A completely random system would have only one type of lure, every fish could be caught in every region and there would be no indication of what fish you would get from the circle size. In this case, we would be fishing completely uninformed. Instead, before we commit to catching a fish we know the area we are in, the lure we used and the circle size. Although this doesn't uniquely predict the fish, it does limit it to a small number of options. If you're looking for a particular fish, this creates the possibility of strategy - you can try to work out which combination of lure and fishing area has the greatest probability of success.

I haven't focussed on fishing much yet (I'm waiting to expand all areas and have the time to strategise), so I can't comment on how well this has been implemented. It could be that you do all this strategizing and find out that your best option is a 1 in 10 chance, which I don't think is satisfying. But in general I think the intention is a good one, although it may be able to be improved by tweaking the fish distributions.

I think it would be nice if there was something similar in the town - for example the strongman gave axes, bricks and tar buckets, the teacher saws, deeds and drills. This would let us come up with strategies for deciding who to serve, but you could only benefit if you researched the patterns and thought about what you were trying to achieve.

With that in mind, I'm curious about XYZzY's comment. Have you posted these observations elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by XYZZY

There is strategy to the town. Keep a log of your townies and try to find behavioral patterns. Or pay attention to the amount of XP they give: I was super excited to finally get my beach cafe, but now never import somebody to it since the XP is just so freaking low to be not worth the trouble. In what I call the V2 town (from server update on Jun-6 until today), I find that Salesman has 71% chance of giving town expansion items, whereas Locals just 52%. So yeah, you can strategize, but it's harder. But I like that. And there is certainly planning: do you want to import one more person to the last spot in the spa, even though in 45 minutes somebody will free up in the diner and need to go to the spa?

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I have one more thing that might shed some light on what other people do.

You said " no-body in their right mind (who is just remotely familiar with the game) will ever use 3 diamonds to open a box whoes content you don't know." But that's not true. Or else there are millions of people not in their right mind.

Five words. "The thrill of the chase". Lots and lots of people regularly pay real money on raffle tickets with the hope of that big jack pot. They buy these tickets not knowing what, if anything, they will win. The first box I paid to open gave me five diamonds. Talk about an adrenalin rush! Loads of people everyday, buy the post man's 35 card package, just trying to get that tractor or windmill and there is a whole thread here about people paying even more (5 diamonds) to buy a mystery net not know what will be in it, all in hopes of getting the elusive pearl. So based on your comments there are a whole lot of us not in our right minds

But I know you didn't mean it like that, right. Some people like the uninformed choice, the surprise, the unknown. What better place to take those risks than in a game that doesn't have to cost us any money.

I personally don't gamble. I don't like the odds, but two of the best times in my life were when we went to a fund raiser Las Vegas night. If you are un-aware of what these are, I'll try to summarize. You usually pay an admission fee or a set donation and you get a set number of chips. The host sets up various games of chance that you might see at a casino in Vegas. Slot machines, roulette wheels, back jack tables, etc. Everyone gets to play all evening, buy drinks and food etc. At the end of the evening there is an auction or raffle where you "buy" donated goods and services with your evening's "winnings". All the money goes to charity. They are really fun because you get the thrill of gambling without any real risk while doing a good thing for charity. Hay day provides a little of that. The thrill of chasing that elusive tractor or pearl but no chance of spending the house payment at the casino.

Anyway. That's why the not always knowing what the prize will be is fun to a lot of us.

As a poker player, I know as well as anyone about the thrill of the chase. I love the randomness and excitement of it.

But don't get misled by the conversation, because random and uninformed really are two different things. If some things become informed, it will not change the randomness of it, and it really wouldn't change the excitement of it.

Here's an example of random against uninformed.

For boats- if it wasn't random, that would mean there is a clear pattern. I.E green/blue/green/purple/green/gold (for simplicities sake). This means as soon as you saw that pattern, you know that every other boat is going to be green, and in between that the blue/purple/gold cycle around. This would be boring as anything and you'd have had enough within a week or two. To clarify, this is not what is being suggested.

Instead, the cycle is as random as ever, but upon arrival- you find out what voucher the boat has. The excitement is still present in the 4 hour waiting time- what voucher will I get?



The biggest thing here though, by far, is people don't like change. Let me put this to you- when we get the boats, the items are all told to us beforehand. What if someone wanted to change that now so that you DON'T see the items? How many of you that advocate the randomness and uninformed nature of the game would support a change where we don't see the boat items?

What about if Hay Day had been created originally where you see the vouchers for truck orders and boat orders, and the townies tell you what items they want before you put them through? If someone complained that it was too transparent, would you honestly say that you would prefer it to be changed?

Think honestly about what the game would be like, what would change, and whether that change would actually be for the worse. SC have done a great job making a great game- but games get better by evolving, and no game has a perfect system. There will always be things that could be improved.

Makes sense the way you say it. The needs of the coming boat were added because of the time element in filling a boat. I was a part of the captains achievement helpers which was started because it was so hard to fill twelve consecutive boats. Several things were changed since the addition of the boat including being able to flag crates for help. First you could flag them all, but that was changed to just three. The uproar about that change was huge, but it made sense to me. Someone could get the achievement without filling a single one of their own crates. Anyway more and more changes were made including not having double and triple of one item. Eventually it became possible if not easy for someone to get the achievement without our help and we disbanded. Just a bit of history there. So your example about randomness with the boats has an added element, but I get your point.

I don't know why they don't tell us what the voucher color is when the boat comes in, but you can bet more boats would be turned away. Not that this would hurt the game though, but it would change the global boat events that's for sure. I think the town will affect the current event A lot.

I also understand resistance to change, more than most because of my children and their conditions, and you have a good point there. So often it is so hard to see past the initial change to see the effect it will have. When they first started the town teasers, I was really against it. But I like it now. And knowing what the townies want wouldn't bother me nearly as much as knowing what the special gift was. I just don't know how they would do it. It would be nice if we could find out what they want and then have the option to send them to the next place or back to the town hall or waiting area. Sort of like having an item on back order. But since there is no time element like the river boat, I guess they just figured that we could just let them stand there till we got what they wanted. A bit sloppy but not impossible.

Sometimes , and don't tell anyone ;) I think that supercell is a lot like Apple. They deliberately hold something back in order to have something great for the next update. I think that's the case about a new shop for clothes that everyone seems to think is coming. The town is too new to add a new shop right now, just like it was a big enough update that the summer things had to wait a bit. But that's just conjecture.

Personally, I think the uninformed part of the game is actually pretty much randomness which I'm in favor of. On a basic level (and as a game designer) I think it's more entertaining. There have been various psychological studies and such proving the point, as well.

On the whole, it's not a big issue for me. I doubt my game style would change much at all if I knew what vouchers I was going to get, or what the little people would give for rewards. Of course, I would just focus on the gold vouchers and what I needed while tossing the other stuff. On the whole, I think that would make the game less fun.

I agree that spending 3 diamonds to open an unknown chest is something I would never do. Yes, the random chance is entertaining, but I don't like to make uninformed decisions if it isn't likely to be profitable. For the same reason, I rarely do boat or truck orders unless I need the xp or I have an excess of the items. The random chance of a rare item or voucher isn't much of a concern.

Basically, if you have 50% to get a red item and 50% to get a blue item it's more fun than knowing which it will be beforehand. I don't view the unknown random chance as an uninformed decision. I view it as a calculated risk or a negligible concern. Hay Day is very much a resource management game and part of that management is constantly making informed decisions. Nearly everything I do in Hay Day is based on helping out or an informed choice. I rarely base any decision on random factors unless I've calculated the odds.

If probabilities and game coding are considered, all the things mentioned in the opening post aren't actually uninformed decisions, but just good/bad decisions based on random chance. And axes and Tar buckets are both useful. Axes are pure profit and xp when used on bushes and tar buckets can be sold for money to someone who might need them.

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Originally Posted by alcibiades

First of all, you clearly have not understood the difference between uninformed and random. Those are not the same thing, as I tried to explain in OP, and like Dysdave did a perhaps better job than me at explaining further up on this page. I'm fine with customers giving random items, but I don't want to be uninformed about what I get - i.e. I want to know in advance what item they will give. Secondly, I never said every item on the list needs to be addressed, but I did list them as options, and as such I'm open for discussion of them.

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Dressing a made up term and calling a random dice role 'uninformed' does not change it from being random. You know what will come out of a visitor, you know what can come out of a red box, and you know what can come out of an ore/jewelry truck order. Every thing on that list has a loot table that it draws from and even at level 50, I have a fairly good idea of what is what.

edit: As my game design experience is limited to economic balance and in game commerce, I did google the terms to see if they actually existed in game design and the definitions you are presenting do not match the documentation explaining the terms. (see: Game Design Workshop, Fullerton) amazon preview had enough text to answer question:)

The town would simply be boring if all the construction guys gave were hammers or the pink dress lady always dropped paint, country guy could drop maps...

If you are told what is in the red box, and you have the choice to use diamonds or not, do you honestly think SC would not figure out the relative demand of things and price each item on the red box loot table accordingly? It would effectively eliminate the 5 diamond drop. I much prefer the pure unknown of it.

I see what you are saying but you are simply trying to turn this apples of a game into an orange game. Two different animals, especially seen with these ios based mini games. A lot of your logic would be more applicable to a larger construct, say an mmo. For this mini-time sink of a game the knowledge you are trying to throw around is beyond the scope of the game.

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Originally Posted by Tiggerr129

You said " no-body in their right mind (who is just remotely familiar with the game) will ever use 3 diamonds to open a box whoes content you don't know." But that's not true. Or else there are millions of people not in their right mind.

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That's interesting. I wonder where you have the numbers from, but then again, my assertion that no-one would do it was also based on the very limited empirical basis of my own evaluation of the game and talk within my neighborhood. Let's create a poll to get a larger data sample!

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Originally Posted by maxell

Dressing a made up term and calling a random dice role 'uninformed' does not change it from being random. You know what will come out of a visitor, you know what can come out of a red box, and you know what can come out of an ore/jewelry truck order. Every thing on that list has a loot table that it draws from and even at level 50, I have a fairly good idea of what is what.

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I still stand by my oppinion that random and uninformed are two different things. Whether the term "uninformed" is also used in other contexts within gaming theory I don't know, I'm using the word in its more general meaning of making a decision without knowledge of the outcome, but not being a native english speaker, this might be a bad choice of word. Anyway, just to clarify, here are examples of how I see different combinations of random/none-random and informed/uninformed potentially coming in play:

• Random un-informed: All visitors can give all items. We don't know in advance which will be given.
• Random informed: All visitors can give all items. We know in advance which item will be given.
• None-random un-informed: Each visitor gives a specific item. We don't know in advance which item will be given [but obviously would fairly quickly figure out the pattern, making it a de-facto informed choice]
• None-random informed: Each visitor gives a specific item. We know in advance which item will be given.

One could throw in one more option:

• Optional: All visitors can give all items. We choose ourself which item we want as reward.

I'm adding the last option here because it's my impression that some people think that's what I advocate for, and that is most certainly not the case - that would indeed make game trivial. What I advocate for is random informed instead of random un-informed as we have now. An important distinction is that random informed will not give you endless amounts of the rare item, you will essentially get the same amount of rare materials as you get in random un-informed (assuming you fill all orders in un-informed system!), but the difference is you can send away customers who give un-desired items, which effectively saves you a lot of resources.

The latter part is crucial for me, because I see HayDay - like someone also mentioned above - as a resource-managing game. And for me, un-informed decisions are contraindicated in any form of managing game, because the entire basis of managing is to use information to make the best decisions. Now obviously HayDay is not only a resource-managing game, it's also sort of a city-builder game (with all the farm decoration and stuff) and then has that third element which is all the randomnes. And clearly we are drawn to the game for different reasons - for me, the combination of management and decoration is appealing, while the random elements are contrary to the management aspect. But others who are drawn to the random elements obviously will prioritize other things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxell

edit: As my game design experience is limited to economic balance and in game commerce, I did google the terms to see if they actually existed in game design and the definitions you are presenting do not match the documentation explaining the terms. (see: Game Design Workshop, Fullerton) amazon preview had enough text to answer question:)

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Just thought I'd point out that the distinction between informed vs uninformed is reasonably similar to the related but distinct concepts of information and randomness in Information Theory. I was drawing on my (limited) understanding of this theory in my earlier post. Essentially I was saying I liked fishing because knowing the lure, fishing spot and circle size help you narrow down which fish you will catch, without necessarily limiting it to a particular fish. In the language of information theory, the lure used, fishing spot and circle size convey information about the fish to be caught (information theory lets you quantify how much).

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Originally Posted by alcibiades

Thirdly, the reason I drag red boxes into this discussion - and that is partially a detour from the original topic, but none-the-less connected, and since you bring it up, let me elaborate - is because red boxes is one of several game features that we could call dummy features - by which I means features that are there but don't serve the purpose they are put there for, or in the case of red boxes only do it partially. The red box has a dual function:

• It can be unlocked, in which case it gives you its content for free
• It can be locked, in which case you can choose to spend an amount of diamonds (currently 3) to open it

The first function obviously is fine - it's mana from heaven, no complaints about that. However, the second function is essentially useles because no-body in their right mind (who is just remotely familiar with the game) will ever use 3 diamonds to open a box whoes content you don't know, simply because there is an overwhelming chance of the content not matching the value of 3 diamonds and/or the content being something you don't have particular need of at that time.

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I think the locked boxes serve an additional purpose you haven't considered. Freemium games work on the idea of offering players rewards in exchange for either the users time or payment in the premium currency (diamonds in Hayday) that can be bought for real money. We're familiar with this in the standard form: Want a new town? Well either you can wait three days or give us 97 diamonds to get it now.

The red boxes are really the same. Want to have a chance to get diamonds or useful items for your farm? Well either you can spend the time to go visit your friends farms and look for mystery boxes or you can spend diamonds to open the first one you find. You shouldn't think of the diamonds as paying for the items inside but paying for the time you don't have to spend looking for an unlocked box. The locked boxes are what makes it time consuming to find the unlocked ones. With this in mind, the diamond cost is probably similar to speeding up a machine.

I know you think the diamond cost of speeding up a machine is ridiculously high (I agree), but clearly there are enough people willing to buy diamonds to make HayDay profitable.

Well you totally skipped the rest of my post dealing with raffles and casinos etc. that loads of people in their right minds participate in daily, so I am done. Your poll doesn't mean much on a forum where we tell people how to get the boxes more regularly by not closing the window. Knowing that you can increase your chances of getting an open box by increasing your chances of finding the box, changes the whole equation. And since your poll won't reach the 98% percent of hayday players who don't use the forum! your sample size is way too small. Especially since your original audience was all people in their right minds.

Have fun with the rest of your discussion.

Speaking for myself only here and after weighing the merits of your position, I could forsee a detrimental impact upon my play if, hypothetically, the uninformed random elements were changed to the informed elements you're advocating.

Having advance notice of all items town visitors would request prior to service and having knowledge of the reward/prize they would give for said products would indeed aid in making an informed decision on whether to invest the resources, yet by the very act of knowing the outcome of such informed action, I would then be able to choose whether to engage in said transaction for the proffered reward. Using the aforementioned poker analogy, I would only play the hands I knew in advance I was going to win.

As such, if I believe my resources are more valuable than the prize offered, I would decline until such time a more worthy reward came along. To engage in such behavior repeatedly, because of pre-defined limited space for resources, would effectively bring my play to a halt. Why should or would I sell premium items for a green voucher or a box of nails when, through the repeated refusal of such offers, I know they will eventually command a gold voucher or a map piece?...but until such time, those items are warehoused waiting for the right client with an acceptable offer to request them.

Game progress can only be achieved through supplying a demand. Being informed, if the demand's reward is not sufficient, then I do not supply, which will lead to an inevitable stagnation until an acceptable prize came along, say, once every 24 visitors. What would be my incentive to play if I knew that I was only going to transact business with one out of every two dozen customers? Being informed sounds pretty dull to me in that instance.

As the system currently stands, without being informed of the variables, every transaction becomes potentially a gold mine from each of those 24 clients. Value is in the eye of the individual beholder, and maybe it is the thrill of the unknown, or perhaps I am a truly lousy poker player, but I think I prefer the possible odds of 24:24 rather than the guaranteed 1:24.

Great thread, BTW. It's made me think, and has been very revealing as to how fellow farmers evaluate and prioritize when playing!:)

You make a fair point. And sure, there is a lot of excitement in not knowing. But that's the thing, that excitement is still present in the waiting time! While you wait for the new train, boat, truck orders- THAT is where you have your excitement. You have the added anticipation of seeing what you'll get, as well as what it costs you. With boats, the anticipation is heightened further- currently, if I see sugar/dairy/fish boats, I've already decided not to do them. If I saw I'd get a gold voucher though... Then I might fill it. So my decision would never be made for sure until I saw the boat. And if the reward sucks but the boat is easy- I might just do it anyway. The time issue means people are hardly at liberty to just spam gold vouchers everywhere.

As far as stagnation, I wholeheartedly disagree on that. As it is, premium items are bundled into boats and towns like crazy- and people are unlikely to ever sell them, because their machines can't keep up. I personally fill every single town order to get new materials, and I have zero spare for premium boats or truck orders. I feel I'm playing 1/3 of the game only. And sure, it's my choice. But the alternative would allow me top play all equally, and possibly toss the odd bag of sugar, lobster soup, fish burger into the store. I could help others out the same way.

I think the opposite of stagnation would occur- with less town/boat orders completed, people would have more freedom with their production.

Again speaking only for myself, I'm on the opposite side of the fence regarding the excitement being in the informed wait.

For example, boat 1 asks for sugar and will give a green voucher. That's a big NO, so cast off, then a new order for jam on boat 2 four hours out pops up, another green. Again, no way, its going to be cast off too, then an order for boat 3, again 4 hours away, another green for fish this time. Away it goes empty too.

The point is, that this could go on for sometime until the ideal boat with a better valued voucher for the items asked for arrives, and until it does, that means idle time unless I spend diamonds to bring them in faster which has less chance of happening than me spending them to open a chest. Idle time equals boredom & no progress, and boredom & no progress equals not playing. For me, being uninformed fosters the hope and anticipation that the prize will be equal the effort & resources. If boat 1 doesn't meet expectations, there's always boats 2, 3, 4, to look forward to, but of course this view is the polar opposite of how you see it.

My point about stagnation is that if I don't get rid of those items for anything less than the desired stellar prize I deem them worthy of, then they sit in the barn until I do. Time isn't the issue and isn't the catalyst which causes me to enter a tranaction. It only matters after I decide fill that first crate. All the boats in Hay Day can come & go, and the townspeople can wander around until infinity freezes over, but if I won't initially accept what they're offering, there's no market for that product, and thus no reason for me to produce more until I get rid of what I already have, ergo, stagnation.

Yes, I could sell it in the RSS for more coin than what either the boats or townies will offer, but the trade off is no XP or prizes, yet if I weren't willing to give it up for any thing less than a gold, why would I sell it for 100 more in coin & no voucher of any color? At least, without the advance knowledge of what the reward is, I can fill an order with the HOPE of a good prize, rather than sitting on something indefinitely knowing that the next several hours or days will bring nothing but green vouchers.

Personally, I prefer certainty, or if I can't have that, I like to know the odds (and only play when they are in my favor). But scientific studies have shown that a large fraction of people enjoy the thrill of gambling, even when they know the odds are against them. For whatever illogical reason, people feel that the odds don't apply to them, that they are luckier than average, or they somehow recall the rewards as being larger and the losses smaller than they really are.

That's why casinos can stay in business. That's why lotteries and raffles make money. That is why so many computer games are designed to include an element of gambling. They are taking advantage of this illogical tendency to think that they can beat the odds, or that the thrill of gambling is worth the cost.

Although my sentiments agree with the OP, I am quite sure that the game designers will not remove this element from the game--coupled with the embedded ads (the movie ticket), this is probably where most of their revenue comes from.

~powdermonkey

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Originally Posted by powdermonkey

Personally, I prefer certainty, or if I can't have that, I like to know the odds (and only play when they are in my favor). But scientific studies have shown that a large fraction of people enjoy the thrill of gambling, even when they know the odds are against them. For whatever illogical reason, people feel that the odds don't apply to them, that they are luckier than average, or they somehow recall the rewards as being larger and the losses smaller than they really are.

That's why casinos can stay in business. That's why lotteries and raffles make money. That is why so many computer games are designed to include an element of gambling. They are taking advantage of this illogical tendency to think that they can beat the odds, or that the thrill of gambling is worth the cost.

Although my sentiments agree with the OP, I am quite sure that the game designers will not remove this element from the game--coupled with the embedded ads (the movie ticket), this is probably where most of their revenue comes from.

~powdermonkey

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And it is for that precise illogicality that I don't frequent casinos, back room poker tables, or buy lottery tickets! With the odds against me, coupled with a natural lack of luck, I could soon beggar myself, my kids, their kids, and my dogs into pauperdom. The cute farming stratagem that is Hay Day allows for the indulgence of often fruitless pursuit without all the sordid ramifications. Getting a virtual green voucher for a virtual jar of jam is far less shattering than an eviction notice because I literally bet the farm! :D ...so I say, "Viva virtual uncertainty and happy Hay Daying!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LadyJEM5

Having advance notice of all items town visitors would request prior to service and having knowledge of the reward/prize they would give for said products would indeed aid in making an informed decision on whether to invest the resources, yet by the very act of knowing the outcome of such informed action, I would then be able to choose whether to engage in said transaction for the proffered reward. Using the aforementioned poker analogy, I would only play the hands I knew in advance I was going to win.

As such, if I believe my resources are more valuable than the prize offered, I would decline until such time a more worthy reward came along. To engage in such behavior repeatedly, because of pre-defined limited space for resources, would effectively bring my play to a halt. Why should or would I sell premium items for a green voucher or a box of nails when, through the repeated refusal of such offers, I know they will eventually command a gold voucher or a map piece?...but until such time, those items are warehoused waiting for the right client with an acceptable offer to request them.

Game progress can only be achieved through supplying a demand. Being informed, if the demand's reward is not sufficient, then I do not supply, which will lead to an inevitable stagnation until an acceptable prize came along, say, once every 24 visitors. What would be my incentive to play if I knew that I was only going to transact business with one out of every two dozen customers? Being informed sounds pretty dull to me in that instance.

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Thanx for your contribution to the thread. I think you bring some very valid points to the table, even if I disagree with your conclusion! :)

It is true, that giving more information will invariably halt the game to some extent because you will send away customers not giving the correct reward. I don't see that as a bad thing, for several reasons. First of all, as DysDave has also said, game is not balanced towards serving all customers. Even with all machines running 24/7 (which you can't, because sugar production can't supply coffee shop alone, not to mention all the other machines eating sugar, but there's another topic for us there), but even with all machines running as much as they can, it's impossible to keep up with the demands of the townies - and that's not even counting truck orders and boat orders (truck orders and boat order have gone down by some 95 % or so for me). As such, I still send away some customers - standard habit of mine is to send any customer asking for Beach Cafe there first, because Beach Cafe orders are usually some ridiculous combination of sandwhich and salad and ice cream. If I can see Beach Cafe order is bad, I will send the customer away. However, if I knew that this particular customer would give me a map or a red brick, I might re-evaluate the situation and consider doing him anyway - and this element for me actually raises the chalenge of the game, on the mental level at least, and as such would make the game more varied, not less so.

Secondly, I don't see supply and demand quite as static as you do. Demand shifts, both based on external factors (such as events) or based on in-game evolution (for instance, right after town came out, yellow paint was the TEM I needed most, now I have upgraded Diner and BnB fully, so now I find myself needing hammers more) and sometimes even because of random events (like finding a stash of feta salad in paper might make you more inclined to fill orders for this than you normally would). If you send away all customers and your barn was being locked for that reason, obvisouly you were not playing the game optimally, and you should re-think your balance between number of customers served and sent away - so again, for me that would add to the strategic element of the game.

Lastly, we need to remember that tems/vouchers are only part of the reward given. We also get gold and XP (and reputation points). I love orders for jelly beans, for instance, because they give huge XP rewards, helping me level up faster. I'd go out of my way to fill a jelly bean order, even if I knew I would only get a useless stone block. I also regularly do truck orders for jewelry - particularly diamond rings - for the gold rewards, knowing that the voucher I'll get is green. Being how jewelry orders give extra gold compared to normal orders, this is a great way to make gold, and then I don't care what the voucher is. Obviously my willingness to fill such orders depend on the stock of rings I have - when I'm low on rings, I might be more stingy, but if I need the gold ...

So on the bottom line, while I obviously agree this would have a huge impact of game, and it would leave to a slowing of some game features, I don't think that would make game worse. And if sending away more customers ment people actually were able to fill truck orders and boat orders again, perhaps that would also make the game more rounded, instead of the current 95 % focus on town?

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Originally Posted by ruthlesspenguin

I think the locked boxes serve an additional purpose you haven't considered. Freemium games work on the idea of offering players rewards in exchange for either the users time or payment in the premium currency (diamonds in Hayday) that can be bought for real money. We're familiar with this in the standard form: Want a new town? Well either you can wait three days or give us 97 diamonds to get it now.

The red boxes are really the same. Want to have a chance to get diamonds or useful items for your farm? Well either you can spend the time to go visit your friends farms and look for mystery boxes or you can spend diamonds to open the first one you find. You shouldn't think of the diamonds as paying for the items inside but paying for the time you don't have to spend looking for an unlocked box. The locked boxes are what makes it time consuming to find the unlocked ones. With this in mind, the diamond cost is probably similar to speeding up a machine.

I know you think the diamond cost of speeding up a machine is ridiculously high (I agree), but clearly there are enough people willing to buy diamonds to make HayDay profitable.

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I can see the analogy you're making here, but there seems to be also some differences. Unlocking the town is a one-off event in the game. You can sit through the three days, or you can pay the diamonds at any time to get it right now. On the other hand, the red box gives us materials which is needed continually through the game - and not only that, the items can be bought at a fixed diamond rate through the upgrade menu, giving me the option to get the item immediately, shoud I feel like that.

The question is then, what role do we see the red boxes as having? Some players might see it as a source for an unspecified item, not really caring which one it is. They may choose to open it for the rush of it - if they get the diamonds, great, if they get an item, fine, that's what they expected. Not a good investment from my point of view, but obvously I don't belong to that group, so that's irrelevant.

If we see the red boxes as sources for specific items we need - say, if I need a plank for upgrading barn, I go red box hunting. In this case, opening the red box is obviously not viable. Given that the box can contain at least 18 different objects, I think it's fair to assign a probability of any specific item less than 10 % (they may not all be equally likely). Given that I can buy a BEM for 8 diamonds, statiscically it's far from profitable to open red boxes at the price of 3 diamonds. And finally, if one goes only afte the diamonds, the math is probably even worse, given that the gain is only 2 diamonds and chance for diamonds is probably as low as or lower than average chance.

The point I'm trying to get at here is that from my point of view, SuperCell are shooting themselves in the foot by making the diamond price for opening the box relatively high (from my perspective at least). I believe that lowering the price to open the chest to 1 diamond, there would be a dramatic increase of players who chose to open the chest, just for the heck of it, or because suddenly the profit calculation when looking for a desired object looks much better (perhaps not if only one, but if you need 2-3 different objects). It is therefore my belief (and that is only a belief) that SuperCell would make a much bigger "profit" (in terms of number of diamonds used on opening boxes) if the price was lowered. On a final note, however, this discussion is sort of seperable from the original context, namely whether content of box should be disclosed or not.