Troop Math

Been meaning to post some math here for a while, but I keep distracted hehe.

Anyways, I get asked these questions often, so here's some math for folks.

1. Are giants or barbs more effective as meat shields (i.e., decoys?)

OK, as in all things, there are no completely right or wrong choices. It's about how you use troops.

But, in the purest form, as a decoy or meat shield, consider that L6 giants have 800 health for 5 occupancy. On a per occupancy basis, that is 800/5 or 160 health. This contrasts to L6 barbs with 110 health. So, giants have 45% more meat or fat to shed. For L5, giants on a per occupancy basis is 134 vs L5 barbs 95, 41% higher.

So, the giants offer 40-45% more health, normalizing for occupancy slots, if you use them purely as decoys.

On the flip side, because of the "centralization" of giants and the inherent less diversification, you have to use them more strategically and pinpoint exactly where those fatsos need to go. 25 barbs vs. 5 giants obviously offers 23 more different decoy spots. Are you needing a scattered meat shield that will disappear quickly (barbs) or a more centralized, longer lasting meat shield (giants)?

2. Goblins as a Defender

There is a long-standing, almost tradition of archers as a preferred CC defender. This harkens back to before the change where CC troops can jump over walls. But, slowly, I see on forums an increasing level of chat about goblins as defenders.

First, off, let's state the obvious: if you are expecting air-borne attacks (dragons, primarily, but balloons/healer as well to a lesser extent), of course, archers have the added advantage of defending against that, whereas barbs and goblins do not.

OK, let's say you are a farmer and generally do not expect dragon attacks. Let's review the damage for gobs vs. barbs vs. archer:

Gob level 5: 32
Arch level 5: 20
Arch level 6: 22
Barb level 5: 23
Barb level 6: 26

So, goblins will outhit even level 6 Arch or Barbs. And their health is higher than archers (52 vs. 40 for Archer 5 and 44 for Archer 6). Their health is lower than Barbs but I tend to find that if the defending troops run fast enough to the attacking raiders, you will often see the raiding forces attack a building while the defenders hit free-for-all against the raider. (Exception is if the attacker employs the baiting method to draw out, then lure them away)

Before, defenders could not jump over walls, and it made complete sense to put a CC in the middle of one's village and have them shoot freely at the attackers banging their foreheads against the outer walls. But, after the change, I'd recommend you factor your village design. If your CC is still in the middle, and have something, either a building or walls, that would naturally separate your defending archers against the attackers, then yes, that sort of layout does favor an archer.

But, if your design does not give that natural spacing, and you find your archers just running straight at the attackers, then I would encourage you to consider goblins as well. Btw, I put my CC outside my walls, as a decoy and an afterthought. I don't find it matters much frankly, whether I have goblins, archers, or even any troops. I was away for a week on vacation last week, and I didn't have any troops at all in my CC, and I didn't find it mattered. But, this will differ for all types.

I do find myself appreciating how fast those little green fellas run to the defense though...

3. How Many Hits Can Your Troops Withstand?

There is a common saying... get your mortars to 5, so you can "one shot" L5 archers, which is a commonly used attacking force. Now, you hear, get mortar 6 to one shot L6 archers...

Let's broaden this thought. How about teslas? Wizard towers? How about against barbarians? There's then a logical grid, required number of attacking shots from a defending building vs. health of attacking troop.

I'm not sure how to copy Excel into a forum post, so let me offer some snippets. The following are gross oversimplifications of higher level troops against higher level tesla, wiz tower, mortar, cannons, archer tower.

Barbarians, L5 or L6, will generally survive at least two shots if not more from mortars, wiz towers, teslas, cannons, and archers. Tie this into the meat shield discussion as helpful timing thoughts.

Archer, with their lower health, will generally get one shot from almost anything. Distance, and lagging their deployment, are important to avoid that.

Giants, if you normalize for occupancy for comparison sake, can generally withstand 3-4 rounds of shots (15 if you do not, on a gross basis).

So, what do you do with this? Many people attack with a medley of archers, goblins, and giants/barbs as decoys... I just find it surprising how many people do not stage (i.e., stutter step) their attack with this timing point above. Throwing everything at a single wall point in a complete zerg rush is not that optimal.

Anyways, I didn't intend to write a strategy guide here, just some math behind troops to spark some thoughts.


Illustris, Munching Popcorn

:o This is a nice post.

Regarding Defence HTK, i think a simple link will do: http://clashofclans.wikia.com/wiki/Defence_HTK

Edit: darn, the table alightment is all wrong :(

Left side: Wall breaker level

		Wall Level
	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
1	1	2	2	2	3	5	6	7	9	11
2	1	1	2	2	3	4	4	5	7	8
3	1	1	1	1	2	3	3	4	5	6
4	1	1	1	1	2	2	2	3	4	4
5	1	1	1	1	1	2	2	2	3	3

* Munch Munch* looks awesome...
Well, as a matter if fact, I saw couple high hitters asking for barbs/goblins with archers... Ys, they did... Why?

it is because they use light spell against each other, it requires 1 light spell to take a group of archers, but containing different kinds of troops with different speeds requires the attacker to use more than 1 light.. And you know how every spell valuable for attackers, ghey usually have 1 light only... yes, it is deadly.

You know, I used to write more thoughtful posts...but lately, I've just written one line corny jokes... so thought I would return to my roots


Illustris the Nostalgic

Just wanted to add something to take into consideration on your 1st point. While giants have significantly more health, the damage they deal is meager compared to the barbs. When I use barbarians, all the time, I use them for a dual purpose. While they do shield my archers and distract the defenses, I also count on them to actually destroy things. For giants to really start taking out defenses, you have to send several of them. This is all personal preference (and how you want to use them) anyway, but I think the damage they deal, per housing space, is also a very important factor in determing which to use.

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

Just wanted to add something to take into consideration on your 1st point. While giants have significantly more health, the damage they deal is meager compared to the barbs. When I use barbarians, all the time, I use them for a dual purpose. While they do shield my archers and distract the defenses, I also count on them to actually destroy things. For giants to really start taking out defenses, you have to send several of them. This is all personal preference (and how you want to use them) anyway, but I think the damage they deal, per housing space, is also a very important factor in determing which to use.

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Yep, yep, very valid point. You must be either a senior member, or a member of an uber farming clan... :)

Yes, I was strictly talking about using giants or barbs as complete meat shields or decoys. This is for those using 4-6 giants as decoys, or 20-30 barbs as decoys, to fake out the defense.

One could also weave in elixir for health, as an example. Haha, Zach, I'll raise your bet and raise you one.

Consider that level 6 barbs require 1.36 elix per health point (150 divided by 110) vs. level 6 giants 3.75 elix per health point (3000 divided by 800, note normalization factor is not needed). So, if elixir is precious, then that's also an argument for barbs. I skipped over this before.

Illustris the Ex-Vacationer and Current Poster

You know.... I'm sort of surprised I didn't get flamed about the Gobs as CC troop point... Hmm, maybe I wrote in such a long-winded fashion, everyone snored right through it

Illustris the Verbose (?)

The reason Giants are used as meat shields is because the defence weapons target them over any other troop and it's high hitpoints make it a shield of sorts so the other troops behind them can pass untargeted. I see what you're saying about scattering barbarians instead but it fails on many levels as any kind of meat shield. I use giants as a decoy near a wall then send wallbreakers qucikly behind them. The wb's get through to the walls without being targeted because the defence weapons are focused on the giants only, then when the wall is breached the giants take out the defence weapons. Throwing a heap of barbarians in the same spot will allow the wb's to get targeted as they get to walls as they are the closest troop to take down.

Honestly, goblin speed is a huge negative for me on defense. The faster they are the easier they are to pull out of the base proper, isolate, and destroy.

The other reason giants are a clear winner over a group of barbs is because they only target defence weapons. So your example where 25 barbarians are scattered along an outside wall chewing away at whatever is first in front of them in clumps that are easy for mortars to take out, the 5 giants are marching in and targeting only the defence weapons which is what you need to take out before anything else. Clear winner...

By the way, I tried to present the math in an unbiased way and the pros and cons for each point, but in case anyone is curious:

1. I prefer gobs over arch for CC, on defense

2. I prefer L6 giants (4-6 of them) over L6 barbs as meat shields, on offense

Frankly, a matter of preference, but just sharing.


Illustris the Revealing...

I love giants. I mix up my attack force a fair bit, but I always seem to come back to 14 giants, a few wallies and 60 odd goblins. Then, anything goes after that ;).

There is a thread in general about using all barbs which I thought would require a lot of skill (I'm definitely not that skilled ahahah!). I used to use giants, arch, gob, wb and recently switched to barb, arch, gob, wb. I think I have the same or better results.

With giants I feel you get one chance to get it right by sending most of them in and timing the rest of your troops in waves. With barbs I feel you get a couple more chances to push using multiple waves wherever is necessary to push deeper into a base.

I'll drop some barbs and then archer behind to clear out outside building, then some more barbs as cover for wbs. Some more archer, then maybe rage and then more barbs and more archer and gobs last. I keep an eye for how the wings of the atk are going so that some barb and archer are working their way around the sides to clean up outside towers to relieve some pressure on the center push.

But I'm still a noob that's just my experience so far :P I'm looking forward to my lvl 5 troops next week!

- roro

This is a slightly modified version of the "Defense HTK" page on the wiki, it might be slightly relevant here :P

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/...ps8f1e61f1.png

Thanks, Canada. Not only did I not know Wiki has that Defense HTK, I didn't know how to post a spreadsheet image here.

Facepalm to me for trying to reinvent the wheel.


Illustris the Appreciative Cave Man

A factor in barbs vs giants is that there are more hitpoints lost from the defensive towers when you use barbs. If you have level 5 barbs and level 9 canons every 3th shot of the canon will only use 5 of its 45 hitpoints.

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Originally Posted by Illustris

Thanks, Canada. Not only did I not know Wiki has that Defense HTK, I didn't know how to post a spreadsheet image here.

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I even formatted it with pretty colors for you lol

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Originally Posted by CanadaX21

I even formatted it with pretty colors for you lol

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Haha good job

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Originally Posted by xaboetje

A factor in barbs vs giants is that there are more hitpoints lost from the defensive towers when you use barbs. If you have level 5 barbs and level 9 canons every 3th shot of the canon will only use 5 of its 45 hitpoints.

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I think if you use this as an argument you also have to remember that a mortar shot will deal more damage to 20 barbs than it will to 4 giants.

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Originally Posted by FireyElephant

I think if you use this as an argument you also have to remember that a mortar shot will deal more damage to 20 barbs than it will to 4 giants.

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I'd assume that for people using barbs as meat shields instead of giants... they are doing so, so as to really spread out those barbs...

If bunched up together, they do indeed have less health aka meat shield (40-45%) and, in my opinion, represent a poorer choice. Unless, they are being used as hybrid meat shields and attackers (Zach's point).


Illustris the Agreeable

If anyone is interested, the wiki could use a Defense STK...that is seconds to kill. HTK only tells half the story.

Also the main benefit of giants vs. barbs is that the hp isn't spread out over multiple targets, making them a lot more resilient to splash damage.

Mortars and wizard towers do a big number on barbs, but don't do much against Giants.

Personally, I'm a fan of bringing along both giants and barbs to act as my meat shields. The giants get deployed in areas where splash damage is a concern whereas the barbs come out where there are concentrated point defenses. Versatility!

barbs aren't meat shields. you won't find any high level farmers without giants in their basic offence setup. i think the whole barbs vs giants thing is only relevant to lower levels where there aren't one shot kills etc. it basically sounds like a spray and pray thing where you hope they attack the barbs instead of whatever else while giants are always targeted by their defence over anything else... the whole reason giants work is you can throw a heap of archers or whatever behind them that attack the defensive units while they are strictly focused on the giants which is where the meat shield term comes into play.

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Originally Posted by facescraper

barbs aren't meat shields. you won't find any high level farmers without giants in their basic offence setup. i think the whole barbs vs giants thing is only relevant to lower levels where there aren't one shot kills etc. it basically sounds like a spray and pray thing where you hope they attack the barbs instead of whatever else while giants are always targeted by their defence over anything else... the whole reason giants work is you can throw a heap of archers or whatever behind them that attack the defensive units while they are strictly focused on the giants which is where the meat shield term comes into play.

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I am a high level farmer with no giants in my basic offense setup. Saying that this is only relevant to low level players can be nothing further from the truth. I agree that barbs aren't often as meat shields in the same way that giants are, but they are extremely useful units even for high level farmers. They are cheaper, quicker, and deal more damage. Although this is personal preference and may just be from my frequent usage of barbs, but I find their AI extremely predicatble as well. While they do have distinct roles and giants are better suited for attacking stronger opponents, for farming there is a real debate to be had.

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

I am a high level farmer with no giants in my basic offense setup. Saying that this is only relevant to low level players can be nothing further from the truth. I agree that barbs aren't often as meat shields in the same way that giants are, but they are extremely useful units even for high level farmers. They are cheaper, quicker, and deal more damage. Although this is personal preference and may just be from my frequent usage of barbs, but I find their AI extremely predicatble as well. While they do have distinct roles and giants are better suited for attacking stronger opponents, for farming there is a real debate to be had.

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of course you can farm with no giants but it limits the villages you can attack. you can't attack heavily guarded th9 bases with no giants, you won't make it to their resources without them.

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Originally Posted by Junliang

Regarding Defence HTK, i think a simple link will do: http://clashofclans.wikia.com/wiki/Defence_HTK

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I didn't look at this too closely, but something jumped out at me. It hasn't been updated since the Tesla 2x multiplier was put in. Currently a level 6 Tesla can kill a Level 3 PEKKA in 38 hits. The Wiki has it listed as 76.

Not sure who maintains this, but it should be updated.

~Jeff

One of the problems with barbs is that they die. Just remember that a giant can ate 100 damage and deal the same damage, but a group of five barbs just lost 1/5 their attack strength. And that is against single target defenses, its already been brought up how gians are far superior against splash. That said, I do realize that 5 barbs has about 5 times the attacking power as one giant, so I like to bring both along when I farm.

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Originally Posted by facescraper

of course you can farm with no giants but it limits the villages you can attack. you can't attack heavily guarded th9 bases with no giants, you won't make it to their resources without them.

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Hehe, this is the difference between TH 8 farming and TH 9 farming. ;)

It is incredibly profitable at TH 8, but yes I can definately see that I have to switch to giants once I go to TH 9.

Can someone summarize Illustris's thread for me?
pinser the lazy pokemon:)

I take a token amount of giants and a decent amount of barbs. I like the giants because they are great predictable distractions for wall breaking. Their relative DPS is terrible though, per housing space their DPS is roughly 6 whereas a barb is 23.

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Originally Posted by zachUVA

Hehe, this is the difference between TH 8 farming and TH 9 farming. ;)

It is incredibly profitable at TH 8, but yes I can definately see that I have to switch to giants once I go to TH 9.

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ahh man, i didn't realise you were th8! yeah it's a big difference with th9 bases. a lot of anti-wallbreaker designs where without giants you won't crack them. giants will burrow deep trying to get to their defensive units creating holes for other troops to flood in so they're multi-purpose. th9 you have to hit 8's and 9's to get decent loots so you have to be prepared for everything.

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Originally Posted by facescraper

ahh man, i didn't realise you were th8! yeah it's a big difference with th9 bases. a lot of anti-wallbreaker designs where without giants you won't crack them. giants will burrow deep trying to get to their defensive units creating holes for other troops to flood in so they're multi-purpose. th9 you have to hit 8's and 9's to get decent loots so you have to be prepared for everything.

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Lol, yeah the loots are still plentiful for me. I really dread have to familiarize myself with a completely different style of play, but I readily admit that giants will be important in it. If this update has more TH 9 goodies in it, I may be there sooner than I think, though. :p

Giants are better than barbs

especially LV 6 Giants (kindof feel sorry for myself for upgrading barbs first)

I still haven't figured out Giants barbs combo though...
maybe someone can explain how to utilize them?

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Originally Posted by banbandit

I still haven't figured out Giants barbs combo though...
maybe someone can explain how to utilize them?

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I don't mix and match, but in theory, instead of say 5 giants or 25 barbarians you could choose:

1. 1 giant and 20 barbs
2. 2 giants and 15 barbs
3. 3 giants and 10 barbs
4. 4 giants and 5 barbs

Lol, hmm, I wonder if there is a mathematical optimal spot, haha.

Illustris the Ever Helpful

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Originally Posted by banbandit

Giants are better than barbs

especially LV 6 Giants (kindof feel sorry for myself for upgrading barbs first)

I still haven't figured out Giants barbs combo though...
maybe someone can explain how to utilize them?

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i use a mixture of giants, barbs, archers, gobs, and wall breakers. i only take a few giants to use in the initial wall breaking since they are easier to control to draw fire from the wall breakers, once the giants have died i then use the barbs as distractions for the archers to penetrate further into the core and finish off with a swarm of goblins. mostly i just like having the ability to target all of the key buildings with my army (i.e. defenses and resources).

i have pretty good success with that tactic and i hang out in the 1300 - 1600 range.