A disadvantage of the "Elder position is earned" strategy

A rouge elder can devastate a clan, so we jump to the conclusion that we must identify and promote only those members we can trust. That makes sense, but is it the best plan at our disposal? Maybe, but as they say, maybe not. When I started playing, I never wanted many elders, but having two rouge elders brought me to think that my promotions were premature, but unfolding drama coupled with a bad day ensures that chaos can ensure with no guarantee for clan safety even with elders we think we can trust. So, what's the solution, promote all members to elder position? No.

What then? I maintain the member count at 45, so kicking the least active members is necessary; otherwise, we are left with unacceptably inactive players, but that says nothing of who should or shouldn't be an elder. I use it as a behavioral modification tool. Unless elder position is demanded, it's freely given, but disrespect or misbehavior leads directly (not to being kicked out) but to losing eldership. If by chance an elder, without the authorization to do so, kicks them out, then the most damage is limited to losing those that have misbehaved. Then, the elder can be dealt with accordingly.

I am gracious in that I give members ample room to cool off and redeem themselves (and potentially get eldership back) so generally I don't kick on misbehavior reasons alone but rather on minimal activity.

So, the children who offer eldership right off the rip may have the right solution--but just not for the right reasons.

Whatcha think?

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Originally Posted by fast1

A rouge elder can devastate a clan, so we jump to the conclusion that we must identify and promote only those members we can trust. That makes sense, but is it the best plan at our disposal? Maybe, but as they say, maybe not. When I started playing, I never wanted many elders, but having two rouge elders brought me to think that my promotions were premature, but unfolding drama coupled with a bad day ensures that chaos can ensure with no guarantee for clan safety even with elders we think we can trust. So, what's the solution, promote all members to elder position? No.

What then? I maintain the member count at 45, so kicking the least active members is necessary; otherwise, we are left with unacceptably inactive players, but that says nothing of who should or shouldn't be an elder. I use it as a behavioral modification tool. Unless elder position is demanded, it's freely given, but disrespect or misbehavior leads directly (not to being kicked out) but to losing eldership. If by chance an elder, without the authorization to do so, kicks them out, then the most damage is limited to losing those that have misbehaved. Then, the elder can be dealt with accordingly.

I am gracious in that I give members ample room to cool off and redeem themselves (and potentially get eldership back) so generally I don't kick on misbehavior reasons alone but rather on minimal activity.

So, the children who offer eldership right off the rip may have the right solution--but just not for the right reasons.

Whatcha think?

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I think you should have summarized all this at the end.
I prefer the "zero/one/two/three elder" clans

can i be elder?

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Originally Posted by facescraper

can i be elder?

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No, because you aren't in my clan

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Originally Posted by pinser

I think you should have summarized all this at the end.
I prefer the "zero/one/two/three elder" clans

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Even the best judgement in who is promoted can't guarantee that we will be mistake free, and a full clan with so few elders will guarantee clan devastation if an elder turns on you. But yes, I too prefer a small number of elders, but clan reconstruction can be quite difficult should your members not be as loyal as you like, especially in an atmosphere where most players want strong clans.

Sorry for the lack of brevity.

What do you have against elders who like to accentuate their cheekbones? :p

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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter

What do you have against elders who like to accentuate their cheekbones? :p

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It's not that they do but rather why they do. :D

My clan has 12/49 elder. The elder process can seem both extremely easy and extremely difficult. The biggest factor for it is time. Other factors include donating and activity obviously, but for us time in the clan is our biggest requirement. Other than those we really could care less about trophys or level. We have so many great people that are active and donate, but we want the position of elder to be something important. Those who are elder really don't see it as a big deal, because by the time they become elder they're already respected and "senior" members of the clan. Half the time those we promote, while happy, never asked, not because they were scared to be kicked, but because their just happy to be in the clan and elders not that important to them. We don't have a limit on how many will be elder an hope that at some time the entire clan will be elder because they earned it.

We have two clans, and I was the only leader/elder in both clans, and membership is around 47 plus or minus, as I leave a few spots for visitors and rotations between the two clans.

I was away for vacation this past week, so we locked down both clans, and I made everyone in both clan elders, and I closed the doors for a week (the Closed toggle in clan setup). So that was, in a way, the inverse of no-elders. And we lost three members across both clans in total, who had recently joined, and obviously gained no members (as doors were both closed).

I'm just back, and from what I gather, it seemed to be fine.... point being, from my perspective, the no-elder, or all-elder, ends of the spectrums seem to be fine... in between, can be fine or problematic, depending on your clan's mix of folks. But, ultimately, it comes down to the folks you have in your clan, I suppose.

Illustris the Door Keeper yet Again

Interesting. I will think about that.

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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter

What do you have against elders who like to accentuate their cheekbones? :p

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LOL I second Tim's comment. :)

Make everyone an elder...problem solved.

All elder or no elder is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by dahimi

All elder or no elder is the way to go.

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I concur(but for the no elder part:p)

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Originally Posted by dahimi

All elder or no elder is the way to go.

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If everyone is a king, then the position is without admiration.

nobody really cares... also coulda made it easier to read...

I don't understand what exactly the disadvantage is. That you can be wrong? I would rather have eldership be something the best earn than something everyone gets.

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Originally Posted by Mendax

I don't understand what exactly the disadvantage is. That you can be wrong? I would rather have eldership be something the best earn than something everyone gets.

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Yes ideally, to earn it is better than to merely have it bestowed, but the power of elder is so great that a clan can be decimated should what would otherwise be a good elder have a bad attitude one day--and decide to act in a most hateful way. A clan leader has the responsibility of protecting his or her classmates from such a devastating occurance. Sure, the most loyal of the group will return after being kicked out, but I don't think I'm going to have much admiration for a leader who can't at least protect his fellow comrades from the whims of an elder gone bad.

Still, allow elder to be earned, but lower the bar, not raise it, as maintaining a substantial number of elders who are active, friendly, and donate is essential to maintaining a safe environment from rouge elder attacks--unless you opt for a no elder or all elder clan, which I don't recommend.

At any rate, the risk is too great to have a large clan with few elders. Our selection process might be spot-on, but the risk is not without some potentially devastating consequences--and that is the disadvantage of having only a few carefully selected elders.

I'm not downing the wisdom of elder is earned mind-set--not at all. Just having a discussion about it not always being what it's cracked up to be. We strive for the ideal yet get side-tracked by reality.

Anyhoots, happy clanning,

fast

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Originally Posted by facescraper

can i be elder?

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Yes and I'll give you a balloon!

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Originally Posted by fast1

If everyone is a king, then the position is without admiration.

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Why would elders get admiration?

People who join just for elder, the clan can do without.

Personally, I view elder as a co-leader. A clan with too many leaders is destined to have problems. 1 leader can't watch the clan 24/7, so I recommend 1-3 elders only and no others. When people ask when they will get elder, tell them "never".

If you have a full clan, I've noticed a lot of the drama is from the following:

1) People kicking friends of other people in the clan.
2) People going and visiting friends in other clans (I have no issue with this, but it contributes to #3).
3) People inviting when there really isn't a spot (see #1 and #2).
4) People wanting to get the players from #1 and #2 back in the clan and arguing with the player from #3 that their friend they just invited needs to go.

An example: Player A goes to visit a friend in another clan, leaving the clan 49/50. Player B jumps at this opportunity to invite his friend Player C into the clan. Player D notices that Player A was just visiting, as he does this often, and that he now can't get back in the clan. Player D tells Player B that there wasn't a spot for Player C to join and that he has to leave. Player B quickly promotes Player C to elder and says "he is my friend, I will talk to leader and leader will say he can stay". This is followed by talk about whether to kick Player C or some other player and who that might be.

This is mostly resolved by only have 2-3 elders/leaders who know not to invite people unless there is truly a spot. You also need to set the clan to invite only to prevent randoms from joining, yet still allow your visiting clan members to rejoin by approving their requests.

That's my take on it.

~Jeff

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Originally Posted by GameShaman

Personally, I view elder as a co-leader. A clan with too many leaders is destined to have problems. 1 leader can't watch the clan 24/7, so I recommend 1-3 elders only and no others. When people ask when they will get elder, tell them "never".

If you have a full clan, I've noticed a lot of the drama is from the following:

1) People kicking friends of other people in the clan.
2) People going and visiting friends in other clans (I have no issue with this, but it contributes to #3).
3) People inviting when there really isn't a spot (see #1 and #2).
4) People wanting to get the players from #1 and #2 back in the clan and arguing with the player from #3 that their friend they just invited needs to go.

An example: Player A goes to visit a friend in another clan, leaving the clan 49/50. Player B jumps at this opportunity to invite his friend Player C into the clan. Player D notices that Player A was just visiting, as he does this often, and that he now can't get back in the clan. Player D tells Player B that there wasn't a spot for Player C to join and that he has to leave. Player B quickly promotes Player C to elder and says "he is my friend, I will talk to leader and leader will say he can stay". This is followed by talk about whether to kick Player C or some other player and who that might be.

This is mostly resolved by only have 2-3 elders/leaders who know not to invite people unless there is truly a spot. You also need to set the clan to invite only to prevent randoms from joining, yet still allow your visiting clan members to rejoin by approving their requests.

That's my take on it.

~Jeff

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Well said. Add in people understandably joining spouses, best friends, their dogs, their dogs' best friend, their dogs' best friend's spouse... and it gets complex.

Illustris the Headached

We have 7 elders in my clan including myself, and no one earned elder ship until they had been in the clan for at least 4ish months.

Few elders are the best in my opinion.

-Sam

Like illustis said, it comes down to who you got in yo clan.

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Originally Posted by chajado67

Why would elders get admiration?

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Alright, there is no prestige.

You guys have given me something to think about. thanks

Just keep elder to least amout of people, 9 is so much.

I was an elder in a clan, and one day one of our elders had a "bad" day and deleted a bunch of members. To save our remaining members our leader promoted everbody to elder. There has been no turning back, and I'm glad. Clans are only 50 members, and we are friends with all of them. Prestige? Puh leaze. Any prestige with being an elder is only in your own head. What do you get for being an elder? Only the ability to promote other elders and boot non-elders. I like being in an "elder" clan and am not fooled by the illusion of prestige that being an elder gives.

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Originally Posted by CHINOBEER

I was an elder in a clan, and one day one of our elders had a "bad" day and deleted a bunch of members. To save our remaining members our leader promoted everbody to elder. There has been no turning back, and I'm glad. Clans are only 50 members, and we are friends with all of them. Prestige? Puh leaze. Any prestige with being an elder is only in your own head. What do you get for being an elder? Only the ability to promote other elders and boot non-elders. I like being in an "elder" clan and am not fooled by the illusion of prestige that being an elder gives.

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Same thing happened to our 'extension' clan. An elder kicked everyone and only 9 members were left because they're elders and can't be kicked. A few came back and I helped out recruiting new members. Everyone was turned into an elder to prevent a repeat of what happened. When we got to the 40's I suggested to remove the elder status of the others and let it just be a few of us. Now we're almost full and the leadership was passed on to me. I chose the elders and there's no more than 5. So far it's worked quite well for us.

I think my idealized target is 1 leader, 29 elders, and 15 members for a maximum total of 45 players. I might adjust my donation goal to reflect that such that the 15 members are below the goal. Still thinking...