Why is Supercell killing defence?

It's pretty clear with a quick glance at the Top 200 players that the current game is heavily unbalanced - with attack totally dominant. The only way to become a top player is to focus on attack and you can pretty much ignore defence (most use i-mod-game to extend their shields so they minimise their defence).

Yet for some reason Supercell continue to strengthen attack and are further unbalancing the game. This causes numerous problems. First, anyone interested in the defence side of the game faces the pointless task of trying to defend against heavily overpowered attack. Pretty demotivating and the reason why many top defence players have quit the game. Second, top attack players have difficulty finding bases offering decent cups to attack, and sometimes can't even find a base. This is simply because defence players can't reach their cup range because attack is so overpowered.

So what has been Supercell's response? Take a look at the recent update.
- Added hero powers for the King and Queen - powers that greatly strengthen hero attack power but do nothing to address the problem heros face on defence (they are easily drawn and killed cheaply due to their high activation range and weakness against witches) => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- A longer freeze spell which further reduces the power of infernos and critical middle defence buildings protecting your town hall => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- Minion level 6 ... given no one smart uses minions for clan castle defence => stronger attack, nothing for defence.

The goal can't be for defence to be dominant. If there were no attacks, then there would be no game, so attack needs to remain stronger than defence. But defence needs to be sufficiently powerful so that the defence side of the game isn't near pointless. Their needs to be scope for top defensive players to rise to the top of the game (giving the top attack players bases to attack and also reducing their focus on avoiding defence at all costs ... like through using game mods and cheap shields). There also needs to be reward for all the effort farmers put into building their bases (while still keeping farming viable).

So my question for the forum community is why has Supercell killed off the defence side of the game?

Predator


Suggestions made throughout this post to address the issue for Supercell to implement...

Make defence at farming levels viable to reward those that have built better bases, while maintaining the viability of base farming:
1. Add a loot bonus for defence wins
2. Nurf the super strong defences, like infernos and maybe big heros, at lower cup levels. For example, nurf infernos at gold league and partly at crystal league.

Enable strong defensive players to go higher, without throwing off the defence/attack balance of the whole game through top bases being copied. Also, address the problem of players using sandbox attacks to work out and nullify bases without losing cups.
3. Create a game option to hide your base from view by players outside your clan (also counters the i-mod-game sandbox attack problem)
4. Add a feature where players can have multiple bases saved and can switch between their bases quickly

Strengthen the core weaknesses in current defence, whilst ensuring attack is still dominant.
5. Add more walls, say 50, at Th9 and Th10
6. Create options to narrow the hero activation range (high, medium and low range activation)
7. Add superbombs that do massive damage in a very narrow range, triggered by troops over 1000 hp

Add features to generally strengthen defence, taking care not to destroy the viability of farming or make defence dominant.
8. Hero abilities to activate on first blood, or at 50% damage level.
9. Increase the complexity of the defence AI - for example, option to have big bombs to lower damage across a wide range or more damage concentrated in a narrow range.
10. Add defence spells that activate when troops enter certain parts of the base - like a freeze or slow spell.
11. Telsa walls which are invisible until troops get close.
12. Xbows to target closest troop rather than lock onto a troop as a defence setting option.
13. Stronger defences - higher level cannons and/or archer towers, etc.

Improved gameplay
14. Add an option where a person can open their base for a single attack while they stay online, chat and watch their base be attacked.

Personally, I believe items 1-3 and 5-7 are needed (and #4 would be nice, and items 8-10 look fun provided the game balance still ok). And #14 would really improve the gaming experience.

DEAR SUPERCELL, could you add your views on the contents of the list above and the issue in general, please, and indicate rough timing on any changes you are considering, even bigger please :)

In the last update they nerfed hogs by making them more expensive that's a plus towards defense.

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Originally Posted by Jackcopes

In the last update they nerfed hogs by making them more expensive that's a plus towards defense.

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... but at champ everyone gems and resources don't matter much ... I take your point for farmers - idk why they would make hogs more pricey :(

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Originally Posted by Jackcopes

In the last update they nerfed hogs by making them more expensive that's a plus towards defense.

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I don't think SC was thinking of nerf ing hogs for our sake. More like lining their own pockets. "Profits" is the name of the game,no complaints from me,but a genuine nerf in AI would have been more appreciated!! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Queenslander

I don't think SC was thinking of nerf ing hogs for our sake. More like lining their own pockets. "Profits" is the name of the game,no complaints from me,but a genuine nerf in AI would have been more appreciated!! :rolleyes:

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Yeah but hogs were very OP and they were responding to people's complaints.

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

... but at champ everyone gems and resources don't matter much ... I take your point for farmers - idk why they would make hogs more pricey

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Hogs used to be so over-powered the nerf was much needed.

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

It's pretty clear with a quick glance at the Top 200 players that the current game is heavily unbalanced - with attack totally dominant. The only way to become a top player is to focus on attack and you can pretty much ignore defence (most use ♥♥♥♥game to extend their shields so they minimise their defence).

Yet for some reason Supercell continue to strengthen attack and are further unbalancing the game. This causes numerous problems. First, anyone interested in the defence side of the game faces the pointless task of trying to defend against heavily overpowered attack. Pretty demotivating and the reason why many top defence players have quit the game. Second, top attack players have difficulty finding bases offering decent cups to attack, and sometimes can't even find a base. This is simply because defence players can't reach their cup range because attack is so overpowered.

So what has been Supercell's response? Take a look at the recent update.
- Added hero powers for the King and Queen - powers that greatly strengthen hero attack power but do nothing to address the problem heros face on defence (they are easily drawn and killed cheaply due to their high activation range and weakness against witches) => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- A longer freeze spell which further reduces the power of infernos and critical middle defence buildings protecting your town hall => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- Minion level 6 ... given no one smart uses minions for clan castle defence => stronger attack, nothing for defence.

So my question for the forum community is why has Supercell killed off the defence side of the game?

Predator

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Good post,and my sentiments exactly!! I love the defensive aspect of this game. Unfortunately it takes a back seat to attack and only climbs into the driver's seat at times when SC wishes us to buy new or more powerful weapons or to counter the OP performance of certain troops.
Why can't defence be an acceptable and legitimate way of playing our game? Defence and attack are yin and yang. Let's get back to the balance. Go DEFENCE !!! :rolleyes:

Many champs are using a game mod to run sandbox attacks... so if you build a good base and it goes viral - which most of mine do - people get to practice attack your base and find its weakness ... so you get little value for the base you spent days designing and refining.

It would really help if there was an option so at your election you could only make your base viewable by members of your own clan - as the sandbox attack relies on the ability to view others bases.

As it stands, the fact that many top attackers are using the game mod to work out base weaknesses, further reduces the power of defence.

Pred

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

It's pretty clear with a quick glance at the Top 200 players that the current game is heavily unbalanced - with attack totally dominant. The only way to become a top player is to focus on attack and you can pretty much ignore defence (most use ♥♥♥♥game to extend their shields so they minimise their defence).

Yet for some reason Supercell continue to strengthen attack and are further unbalancing the game. This causes numerous problems. First, anyone interested in the defence side of the game faces the pointless task of trying to defend against heavily overpowered attack. Pretty demotivating and the reason why many top defence players have quit the game. Second, top attack players have difficulty finding bases offering decent cups to attack, and sometimes can't even find a base. This is simply because defence players can't reach their cup range because attack is so overpowered.

So what has been Supercell's response? Take a look at the recent update.
- Added hero powers for the King and Queen - powers that greatly strengthen hero attack power but do nothing to address the problem heros face on defence (they are easily drawn and killed cheaply due to their high activation range and weakness against witches) => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- A longer freeze spell which further reduces the power of infernos and critical middle defence buildings protecting your town hall => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- Minion level 6 ... given no one smart uses minions for clan castle defence => stronger attack, nothing for defence.

So my question for the forum community is why has Supercell killed off the defence side of the game?

Predator

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Wow this is a great idea.
I also wish that the defenses could be stronger because the attack is definetly OP. people don't focus on the defensive part of the game, and the game becomes unbalanced.. Could use some more strengthening for defense point of view

There are lots of simple things SC could do to help ... albeit SC would need to do it gradually because you don't want to unbalance the game the other way either:

1. There is not enough walls to route attack troops effectively across the entire base. SC have added more and more buildings but no more walls - leaving the base designer increasingly hamstrung on how to route troops when defending. Another 50 walls would be handy (and even make Supercell lots of money)

2. Heros are killed too cheaply on defence and have become largely ineffective. Players route them to a corner then kill with a few barbs witches and wiz - mostly consuming just the barbs and skeletons. Literally u lose two max heros for the cost of 10 barbs, because the witches and wiz survive and go on to attack your base. This could be simply fixed with options to reduce the hero defence activation range to small or medium so they cant so easily be triggered and drawn out.

3. Then there are the heros and golems which there is little defence for given the strength of the current freeze spell. A superbomb or two that does 10k damage with a small radius would certainly even things up.

As for air defence - it's pretty much impossible to defend a drags perimeter attack - things like that are more complex ... but the suggestions above would certainly help a lot.

I feel like all this is unfair, and you will too if you think about it.
I have 325 million gold grab -- I realize this is nothing compared to some people, but that's not the point. I have strong defenses: maxed splash damage, and level 10 single shot. My heroes are low levels (6 and 3) but they defend my base, and it isn't bad for someone who has never purposely farmed dark elixir. I digress.
I've always been one to focus on defense; whether to make someone look silly trying to attack me, or just to have the prestige tokens of high level defenses, it doesn't matter. I assume most of you guys are the same.
My main point is that it really bothers me that Supercell buffs and nerfs troops and spells all the time, but the last noticeable change to defenses they made was either disco ball infernos or reducing upgrade time on wizard towers. That was a darn long time ago.
I realize that it might throw the game off a bit (just like any change that they make...i.e reducing the hp of hogs) but I feel like as long as they give us something new to adjust to, something new to work with and figure out, it will keep us busy doing SOMETHING.
Thanks for reading this far. I like ranting. :)

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

There are lots of simple things SC could do to help ... albeit SC would need to do it gradually because you don't want to unbalance the game the other way either:

1. There is not enough walls to route attack troops effectively across the entire base. SC have added more and more buildings but no more walls - leaving the base designer increasingly hamstrung on how to route troops when defending. Another 50 walls would be handy (and even make Supercell lots of money)

2. Heros are killed too cheaply on defence and have become largely ineffective. Players route them to a corner then kill with a few barbs witches and wiz - mostly consuming just the barbs and skeletons. Literally u lose two max heros for the cost of 10 barbs, because the witches and wiz survive and go on to attack your base. This could be simply fixed with options to reduce the hero defence activation range to small or medium so they cant so easily be triggered and drawn out.

3. Then there are the heros and golems which there is little defence for given the strength of the current freeze spell. A superbomb or two that does 10k damage with a small radius would certainly even things up.

As for air defence - it's pretty much impossible to defend a drags perimeter attack - things like that are more complex ... but the suggestions above would certainly help a lot.

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What town hall would you want the walls for? 9 or 10?
And I completely agree with the hero thing. Instead of having a 14 tile moving radius, I think they should make it into an 8 tile radius for the Queen (since she shoots over walls and it's harder to draw her out anyways) and 6-7 for the King, since he's melee. I'd also request that these radii surround the hero's altar--having moving radii just makes it that much easier to send a troop in at a certain spot and draw them out.
I feel as though perimeter drags aren't common enough for them to really do anything about. The most you could hope for is probably just another dark air mine.
I like the superbomb idea. It'd be awesome if they made it so that it is only triggered by things with hp > 1,000; sort of how dark air mines aren't attracted to low health minions, but they are to dragons and healers.

Yeah more walls at many Townhall levels would be great ... Not just th10 because the defence balance is out at many townhall levels and at th9 you are pretty hamstrung ... You don't even need to level the walls much i just need em for troop routing

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Originally Posted by Jackcopes

Yeah but hogs were very OP and they were responding to people's complaints.

Hogs used to be so over-powered the nerf was much needed.

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Can't see how a cost increase is a "nerf". A genuine nerf is a change in AI. Agree it was needed but I have to question the motives behind the way it was done.
A real Pandora's box was opened when SC created the hog rider. A land and air troop moving so fast in such great numbers was bound to create an imbalance. Skill aside,hogs make a wasteland of your village!!
Let's not get sidetracked here,the original post is about the advantage of attack over defence,and this problem goes much deeper than just hogs. Defence is why I play game and I will rise to the challenge of this imbalance. I may be in the minority and would certainly love to hear from other like-minded players. Good post!!:rolleyes:

Great idea

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

It's pretty clear with a quick glance at the Top 200 players that the current game is heavily unbalanced - with attack totally dominant. The only way to become a top player is to focus on attack and you can pretty much ignore defence (most use ♥♥♥♥game to extend their shields so they minimise their defence).

Yet for some reason Supercell continue to strengthen attack and are further unbalancing the game. This causes numerous problems. First, anyone interested in the defence side of the game faces the pointless task of trying to defend against heavily overpowered attack. Pretty demotivating and the reason why many top defence players have quit the game. Second, top attack players have difficulty finding bases offering decent cups to attack, and sometimes can't even find a base. This is simply because defence players can't reach their cup range because attack is so overpowered.

So what has been Supercell's response? Take a look at the recent update.
- Added hero powers for the King and Queen - powers that greatly strengthen hero attack power but do nothing to address the problem heros face on defence (they are easily drawn and killed cheaply due to their high activation range and weakness against witches) => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- A longer freeze spell which further reduces the power of infernos and critical middle defence buildings protecting your town hall => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- Minion level 6 ... given no one smart uses minions for clan castle defence => stronger attack, nothing for defence.

So my question for the forum community is why has Supercell killed off the defence side of the game?

Predator

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They get champ by good attacking. Most choose wisely, and bases they know that their particular army can definitely beat. This is why winning on defense is slim to none up there. Which is why no matter what, raiding will be the name of the game, so may as well get used to it!

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Originally Posted by chaddypatch

They get champ by good attacking. Most choose wisely, and bases they know that their particular army can definitely beat. This is why winning on defense is slim to none up there. Which is why no matter what, raiding will be the name of the game, so may as well get used to it!

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We'll I got to and stay at champ purely through defence. But the top players don't even need to bother with defence. They use mods to extend their shields, cheap shield with mates, and basically ignore the defence side of the game.

Because attack is overpowered defence gets kinda pointless and there is a dearth of bases to attack at high cups. The game would be much more interesting with a better balance... let's just not say the game should be only about raiding ... raiding will be more fun if it requires skill rather than is really easy and you win pretty much every time as the top attackers do.

And why should the top player ranks only recognise the good attackers, and ignore the best defensive players in the game?

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Originally Posted by chaddypatch

They get champ by good attacking. Most choose wisely, and bases they know that their particular army can definitely beat. This is why winning on defense is slim to none up there. Which is why no matter what, raiding will be the name of the game, so may as well get used to it!

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Leaderboard players seem to complain about the lack of bases in their search so I highly doubt they'd be choosy about which base to attack, therefor the reason winning on defense is slim to none up there isn't because they choose the right base. It's actually because the offense in this game far outmatches the defense.

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Originally Posted by SimonY

Leaderboard players seem to complain about the lack of bases in their search so I highly doubt they'd be choosy about which base to attack, therefor the reason winning on defense is slim to none up there isn't because they choose the right base. It's actually because the offense in this game far outmatches the defense.

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Yeah at high cups most players are riding shield, using game mods to stay online and cheap shielding - so bases are scarce and it can take ages to find a base to hit with decent cup gain. If defence was stronger there would be defence players at high cups - they often break shield - so it would solve this problem ... Albeit they would not be easy wins :) (if defence balance was fixed :)) the problem still exists with attack players finding base weaknesses with sandbox attacks but this is a simple fix for supercell - just need the ability to hide your base from view by players outside your clan as a game option.

No matter what theres going to be complaints about what supercell does with the game.. Now, people complain its impossible to win on defense. If they beef up defenses, people will complain that defenses are too OP and its too hard to win on offense.. There will be complaints like this always, best you can do is to adapt to the changes that happen and play on. Either that or stop playing it.

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Originally Posted by chaddypatch

No matter what theres going to be complaints about what supercell does with the game.. Now, people complain its impossible to win on defense. If they beef up defenses, people will complain that defenses are too OP and its too hard to win on offense.. There will be complaints like this always, best you can do is to adapt to the changes that happen and play on. Either that or stop playing it.

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I dont reckon the no change view of the game is gonna make the game better.

There are lots of ways to improve our game and putting up and debating suggestions is never a bad thing ... Just my opinion

Oooooh you said the real word for fluffy bunny! IM TELLING!!! In all seriousness, they did add the multi infernos which everyone seems to think is overpowered. And how much fun is a game where you can win by sitting back and doing nothing? It should always maintain a certain advantage in the attacker's favor. I do agree that attacking might be a little "too" easy at this point in the game with the hero abilities and such.

With a proplem there's always an anwser. I can't take you seriously if your just complaining. Tell me what you suppose would make it better?

I agree attack needs to maintain an advantage... if attack doesn't have an advantage no one attacks and the game stops - not what anyone wants (although only because people would copy the best bases and that would be a problem).

There are two fixes for this... the ability to hide your base from view - so if someone designs an excellent base the whole of CoC doesn't copy it (this is a big problem for top defence players), and getting the attack versus defence mix right so that defence AND attack players are present in the leaderboards.

At present the Top 200 has 200 attack players and 0 defence players... the balance seems a little off ;o

It's pretty sad that once you make it to the top it sucks up there. Supercell tends to help the top players, so I bet they will step in to do something.

The game is now unbalanced at the top and unbalanced for farmers. These two groups are complaining about different things. So that leaves the question, who is happy right now, those in the middle?

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Originally Posted by ThePekkaClasher

With a proplem there's always an anwser. I can't take you seriously if your just complaining. Tell me what you suppose would make it better?

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Well to start... i already suggested this in a post above...

"There are lots of simple things SC could do to help ... albeit SC would need to do it gradually because you don't want to unbalance the game the other way either:

1. There is not enough walls to route attack troops effectively across the entire base. SC have added more and more buildings but no more walls - leaving the base designer increasingly hamstrung on how to route troops when defending. Another 50 walls would be handy (and even make Supercell lots of money)

2. Heros are killed too cheaply on defence and have become largely ineffective. Players route them to a corner then kill with a few barbs witches and wiz - mostly consuming just the barbs and skeletons. Literally u lose two max heros for the cost of 10 barbs, because the witches and wiz survive and go on to attack your base. This could be simply fixed with options to reduce the hero defence activation range to small or medium so they cant so easily be triggered and drawn out.

3. Then there are the heros and golems which there is little defence for given the strength of the current freeze spell. A superbomb or two that does 10k damage with a small radius would certainly even things up.

As for air defence - it's pretty much impossible to defend a drags perimeter attack - things like that are more complex ... but the suggestions above would certainly help a lot."

and someone also suggested making the superbomb only triggered by >1000hp troops.

Im also suggesting the ability to hide your base from view of players outside your clan as a game option.

Got more ideas but these things would be a great start

You're right, Pred. I'm also familiar with your designs. On our last trophy push a lot of guys in my clan "borrowed" your base design at the time, some crazy wall funnels and segment thing that looked amazing... :rolleyes:

Updates usually come out for either defence or offence. The last update made offence even stronger than it already was with a longer freeze spell and Hero abilities. The update before that introduced the new mode infernos, one before that had a few archer tour upgrades and upgradable traps. I'm guessing the next update will definitely have some boost to defence or new defensive buildings. At the moment, it's just a no brainer up there and GoWiWi and all Drag attacks are just impossible to defend no matter what the design. Your idea for a reduced Hero trigger radius is good but you'll probably find they give more walls when TH11 comes out. I don't think attack has ever had such a huge advantage over defence though so hopefully they make some necessary tweaks in the next update because it's a waste of time trying to defend up there...

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Originally Posted by Jackcopes

Yeah but hogs were very OP and they were responding to people's complaints.

Hogs used to be so over-powered the nerf was much needed.

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Hogs weren't exactly nerfed. It was more of a cost change. Their stats are still relatively the same. You can still wipe out maxed bases with them with a couple heals and rages. But meh.

Because CoC is a very offensive game. Defense is still very important but attacking is still a huge deal to it as well.

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Originally Posted by ShapelessHorr0r

Because CoC is a very offensive game. Defense is still very important but attacking is still a huge deal to it as well.

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Right now defence isn't important... check the defence wins of the Top 200... only one player had more than 6 earlier today and we are 10 days into this league.

Like I keep saying its because defense doesn't scale with cups like it needs to.

Yes offence is over powered for the top 200 but for 99.9% of players who don't have maxed troops and heroes or are farming to build their base it is defense that is overpowered.

Here is a simple fix....but those who love to stay in low legues with complain their overpowered defenses don't work.

http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...e-game-for-you

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

Right now defence isn't important... check the defence wins of the Top 200... only one player had more than 6 earlier today and we are 10 days into this league.

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You're implying that's a bad thing.
1. Attack is OP because attacking is fun. If defense, something that requires little to no work from the player, were to be even, then the game would get stagnant as offense would be too difficult.

2. You're only referring to the top 200. These are the guys who will create the largest of armies with the most maxed troops. Of course they're going to win but what about the average player?

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Originally Posted by Crazyscorp

Like I keep saying its because defense doesn't scale with cups like it needs to.

Yes offence is over powered for the top 200 but for 99.9% of players who don't have maxed troops and heroes or are farming to build their base it is defense that is overpowered.

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Try defending with TH9 - hogs will smash you... with a few lightenings on your scarce mortars and a jump spell so will witches provided you dont bunch them, ... and how you find TH9 goes against air attack? its not good.

This is a problem at all cup levels for cup players.

You are right in saying though that a balance needs to be maintained to make sure farming is viable... perhaps stronger archers, barbs and gobs with no increased cost to build em...

Note the things I'm suggesting mostly wont impact farming.
- Hiding your base from view as a game option... no impact
- Superbombs - no impact (unless you farm with big heros lol)
- More walls - yes would impact - depends on the TH level they were available... if TH 9 and TH10 probably ok.
- Narrower range to activate heros - yeah impacts farming but if your in the farming cup range you wont be facing big heros.

I agree that adding a lot more defence buildings might cause a problem for the farming game balance. Smarts need to be applied in picking what to change to get the balance right for attack vs defence from a cup standpoint while still ensuring farming is viable.

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Originally Posted by ShapelessHorr0r

You're implying that's a bad thing.
1. Attack is OP because attacking is fun. If defense, something that requires little to no work from the player, were to be even, then the game would get stagnant as offense would be too difficult.

2. You're only referring to the top 200. These are the guys who will create the largest of armies with the most maxed troops. Of course they're going to win but what about the average player?

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Erm, excuse me, lol? Most people attack so that they can work on their defense. Attacking is the instant fun, seeing your defense success is a long-term kind of fun.

Personally I like it the way it is.
If almost anything significant changes the defense, suddenly no one will win any attacks.

And I can only imagine what the forums would look like.

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Originally Posted by ShapelessHorr0r

You're implying that's a bad thing.
1. Attack is OP because attacking is fun. If defense, something that requires little to no work from the player, were to be even, then the game would get stagnant as offense would be too difficult.

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Defence requires heaps of work - understanding the attack troop AIs, developing base defence strategies to defend against each troop type mix from all angles, putting all the different strategies together into a single base, tweaking the base to get it working, then adapting your base as attack strategies alter. A lot of players like this aspect of the game because its challenging and creative... but there comes a point where it is pointless because attack is too OP. I'm saying we've moved beyond that point

And the only reason I'm quoting the top 200 players is because they are the only stats that are available to non-supercell people ;p

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

There are lots of simple things SC could do to help ... albeit SC would need to do it gradually because you don't want to unbalance the game the other way either:

1. There is not enough walls to route attack troops effectively across the entire base. SC have added more and more buildings but no more walls - leaving the base designer increasingly hamstrung on how to route troops when defending. Another 50 walls would be handy (and even make Supercell lots of money)

2. Heros are killed too cheaply on defence and have become largely ineffective. Players route them to a corner then kill with a few barbs witches and wiz - mostly consuming just the barbs and skeletons. Literally u lose two max heros for the cost of 10 barbs, because the witches and wiz survive and go on to attack your base. This could be simply fixed with options to reduce the hero defence activation range to small or medium so they cant so easily be triggered and drawn out.

3. Then there are the heros and golems which there is little defence for given the strength of the current freeze spell. A superbomb or two that does 10k damage with a small radius would certainly even things up.

As for air defence - it's pretty much impossible to defend a drags perimeter attack - things like that are more complex ... but the suggestions above would certainly help a lot.

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Adding in more walls would require a land expansion which 3GS/Ipad1 can't handle, and I don't think SC plans to stop supporting them.

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Originally Posted by Jackcopes

Adding in more walls would require a land expansion which 3GS/Ipad1 can't handle, and I don't think SC plans to stop supporting them.

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Narh there is plenty of room on the existing map. 50 walls doesn't take much space. Hey 20 would be really handy. 50 would mean you could really have some fun and make it interesting.

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

So my question for the forum community is why has Supercell killed off the defence side of the game?

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Good question, I find it quite a concern. One of the primary frustrations of players in Champion leagues is an ability to find targets worth any cups.

The fact that defense is futile is a huge reason for it, no-one wants to get attacked as they lose a vast majority of the time - so pull whatever tactics they possibly can to stay out of the matchmaking queue as much as possible to mitigate getting attacked. Which snowballs the lack of targets problem.

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Originally Posted by daz258

Good question, I find it quite a concern. One of the primary frustrations of players in Champion leagues is an ability to find targets worth any cups.

The fact that defense is futile is a huge reason for it, no-one wants to get attacked as they lose a vast majority of the time - so pull whatever tactics they possibly can to stay out of the matchmaking queue as much as possible to mitigate getting attacked. Which snowballs the lack of targets problem.

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Yeah great point... the reason attackers cheap shield and use game mods to max their shield - which causes the game match problem ... is because defence is unviable. Attack needs to remain dominant so that people continue to attack, but defence needs to be attractive enough that people don't avoid having to defend at all costs.

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

So what has been Supercell's response? Take a look at the recent update.
- Added hero powers for the King and Queen - powers that greatly strengthen hero attack power but do nothing to address the problem heros face on defence (they are easily drawn and killed cheaply due to their high activation range and weakness against witches) => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- A longer freeze spell which further reduces the power of infernos and critical middle defence buildings protecting your town hall => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- Minion level 6 ... given no one smart uses minions for clan castle defence => stronger attack, nothing for defence.

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- And they added a inferno tower level 3 over the winter and they gave the inferno tower the ability to block healing and switch to five shot mode. They're working one it. Give them some time and they'll balance it out.

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

Yeah great point... the reason attackers cheap shield and use game mods to max their shield - which causes the game match problem ... is because defence is unviable. Attack needs to remain dominant so that people continue to attack, but defence needs to be attractive enough that people don't avoid having to defend at all costs.

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Indeed. Even as a farmer I hate defending as defending properly causes you to lose more. Instead I stay online as much as possible, keep my town hall exposed and ride out 12 hr shields from players sniping my hall if I have high DE/gold I cannot spend.

While I don't think it would help champion leagues too much, I believe a league bonus for winning defense would be good for the game. The strong farmers hanging around Crystal to Masters would be more interested in defending properly if they could actually get a bit of loot out of it.

But bottom line is defense sucks. And it's no surprise people use cheap tactics to hide from the queue as much as possible.

Champion leagues - rarely win a defense
Masters or below - Just causes you to lose a tonne of lose even more re-arming traps & re-loading defenses.

The game needs to make defense worthwhile. We have invested over a year of our time building up all these defenses, tweaking our base designs to be as strong as possible...only to hide from defense as much as we possibly can.

SuperCell has killed defense on all levels, not just Champion if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by daz258

While I don't think it would help champion leagues too much, I believe a league bonus for winning defense would be good for the game. The strong farmers hanging around Crystal to Masters would be more interested in defending properly if they could actually get a bit of loot out of it.

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A loot bonus for winning defence, don't take this the wrong way, but I think I love you xxx

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

A loot bonus for winning defence, don't take this the wrong way, but I think I love you xxx

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:o

Like you, even if for different reasons as I am predominately a farmer; I want defense to have more meaning. I have prided myself on making countless base designs over my clash journey, making minor tweaks regularly. Investing my 500m+ gold grab into defenses...only to never actually want to defend.

Give us a damn league bonus already! I would love high Crystal/Masters if that was the case, if you win - you get some bonus loot. If you lose, you get a shield. Sounds like a nice balance to me. At the moment for farmers, winning defense just hurts you even more; so we aren't too interested at all. Better off staying out of the queue where possible and tossing out the hall.

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Originally Posted by daz258

:o

I am predominately a farmer; I want defense to have more meaning. I have prided myself on making countless base designs over my clash journey, making minor tweaks regularly. Investing my 500m+ gold grab into defenses...only to never actually want to defend.

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If there ever has been a more powerful reason why defence should be meaningful I haven't heard it

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Originally Posted by daz258

Indeed. Even as a farmer I hate defending as defending properly causes you to lose more. Instead I stay online as much as possible, keep my town hall exposed and ride out 12 hr shields from players sniping my hall if I have high DE/gold I cannot spend.

While I don't think it would help champion leagues too much, I believe a league bonus for winning defense would be good for the game. The strong farmers hanging around Crystal to Masters would be more interested in defending properly if they could actually get a bit of loot out of it.

But bottom line is defense sucks. And it's no surprise people use cheap tactics to hide from the queue as much as possible.

Champion leagues - rarely win a defense
Masters or below - Just causes you to lose a tonne of lose even more re-arming traps & re-loading defenses.

The game needs to make defense worthwhile. We have invested over a year of our time building up all these defenses, tweaking our base designs to be as strong as possible...only to hide from defense as much as we possibly can.

SuperCell has killed defense on all levels, not just Champion if you ask me.

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Because defense is so badly punished that people resort to all kinds of nefarious tricks.

This game has always been offensive oriented than defense. In any range, pretty much. Now, I wont speak for all champions, but the way top players gain 1 if they win and lose many many more trophies if they fail dictates how the game is meant to be played, offense. The game would be so much more boring if all the attacks were super hard and the point of the game would disappear.
I rather have a reliable offense than defense, as it is more fun. I try to think of the flip side, if my defense and others defense could defend rather well and my offense couldnt penetrate easily, the game would be so much more boring.
Seeing how I am farming in crystal/gold and you sound like you are pushing, my opinion probably doesnt matter, but just my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by ThePekkaClasher

With a proplem there's always an anwser. I can't take you seriously if your just complaining. Tell me what you suppose would make it better?

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So if the earth was threatened by an impending collision with an asteroid I should have the answer before I can complain?
Maybe you should focus on the proplem and not the anwser.

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Originally Posted by Queenslander

Good post,and my sentiments exactly!! I love the defensive aspect of this game. Unfortunately it takes a back seat to attack and only climbs into the driver's seat at times when SC wishes us to buy new or more powerful weapons or to counter the OP performance of certain troops.
Why can't defence be an acceptable and legitimate way of playing our game? Defence and attack are yin and yang. Let's get back to the balance. Go DEFENCE !!! :rolleyes:

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I consider attacking to be the game. If defense was more powerful or rewarding people would just stay offline to reap the benefits. Yes from a business point of view it makes sense to get people online to spend gems.

Even now people are complaining on long build times and costly troops together with poor loots. Imagine how much fun the game would be if raiding was made more difficult? "I did not play CoC atall during the weekend and gained so much. Best game ever that I do not have to play."

Also attacker gets to choose you to attack. Most times people tend to choose bases that will give them what they want be it resources or trophy gain/loss. So the better your defense it just means more attackers go somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

Many champs are using a game mod to run sandbox attacks... so if you build a good base and it goes viral - which most of mine do - people get to practice attack your base and find its weakness ... so you get little value for the base you spent days designing and refining.

It would really help if there was an option so at your election you could only make your base viewable by members of your own clan - as the sandbox attack relies on the ability to view others bases.

As it stands, the fact that many top attackers are using the game mod to work out base weaknesses, further reduces the power of defence.

Pred

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What mod is this? And I totally agree with this post

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Originally Posted by KingKD

What mod is this? And I totally agree with this post

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I think the forum screens out the mod when it is typed ... let's try... it's called i-m-o-d-game without the dashes :) It sux for defence because if you make a good base people can sandbox attack it until they find the base weakness... so it really reduces the power of good defence bases.

The fix is easy... supercell could add an option where you had the ability to hide your base from view by players outside your clan (please supercell) :)

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

There are lots of simple things SC could do to help ... albeit SC would need to do it gradually because you don't want to unbalance the game the other way either:

1. There is not enough walls to route attack troops effectively across the entire base. SC have added more and more buildings but no more walls - leaving the base designer increasingly hamstrung on how to route troops when defending. Another 50 walls would be handy (and even make Supercell lots of money)

2. Heros are killed too cheaply on defence and have become largely ineffective. Players route them to a corner then kill with a few barbs witches and wiz - mostly consuming just the barbs and skeletons. Literally u lose two max heros for the cost of 10 barbs, because the witches and wiz survive and go on to attack your base. This could be simply fixed with options to reduce the hero defence activation range to small or medium so they cant so easily be triggered and drawn out.

3. Then there are the heros and golems which there is little defence for given the strength of the current freeze spell. A superbomb or two that does 10k damage with a small radius would certainly even things up.

As for air defence - it's pretty much impossible to defend a drags perimeter attack - things like that are more complex ... but the suggestions above would certainly help a lot.

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Yep, offense is way overpowered. I have been saying this for months. Offense being overpowered 70% to 30% over defense is fine, but as things stand now it is more like 95% to 5%.

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Originally Posted by daz258

Indeed. Even as a farmer I hate defending as defending properly causes you to lose more. Instead I stay online as much as possible, keep my town hall exposed and ride out 12 hr shields from players sniping my hall if I have high DE/gold I cannot spend.

While I don't think it would help champion leagues too much, I believe a league bonus for winning defense would be good for the game. The strong farmers hanging around Crystal to Masters would be more interested in defending properly if they could actually get a bit of loot out of it.

But bottom line is defense sucks. And it's no surprise people use cheap tactics to hide from the queue as much as possible.

Champion leagues - rarely win a defense
Masters or below - Just causes you to lose a tonne of lose even more re-arming traps & re-loading defenses.

The game needs to make defense worthwhile. We have invested over a year of our time building up all these defenses, tweaking our base designs to be as strong as possible...only to hide from defense as much as we possibly can.

SuperCell has killed defense on all levels, not just Champion if you ask me.

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That is the truth as I have been saying for months now.

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Originally Posted by Glaciesvir

I consider attacking to be the game. If defense was more powerful or rewarding people would just stay offline to reap the benefits.

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You've missed the whole point of this post.

I'm not questioning that attack should be dominant, I'm saying it should not be SOOO dominant that defence becomes as pointless as it is today.

Attack needs to be stronger than defence otherwise no one will attack. But today attack is so dominant that people at high cups are having problems finding bases to attack because no one wants to defend.

Moreover, defence is a fun and challenging part of the game - but presently its virtually pointless because attack is SOOO dominant.

Supercell needs to get a better balance... one where there are both highly skilled attackers and defenders in the Top 200, and one where farmers who spend so much time building their bases get a reward for a better base rather than having it routinely smashed by overpowered attack.

And from the post we've made some simple suggestions for Supercell to implement...
1. Add more walls
2. Create options to narrow the hero activation range (high, medium and low range activation)
3. Add superbombs that do massive damage in a very narrow range, triggered by troops over 1000 hp
4. Create a game option to hide your base from view by players outside your clan (to counter the i-mod-game ♥♥♥♥)
5. Add a loot bonus for defence wins

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

You've missed the whole point of this post.

I'm not questioning that attack should be dominant, I'm saying it should not be SOOO dominant that defence becomes as pointless as it is today.

Attack needs to be stronger than defence otherwise no one will attack. But today attack is so dominant that people at high cups are having problems finding bases to attack because no one wants to defend.

Moreover, defence is a fun and challenging part of the game - but presently its virtually pointless because attack is SOOO dominant.

Supercell needs to get a better balance... one where there are both highly skilled attackers and defenders in the Top 200, and one where farmers who spend so much time building their bases get a reward for a better base rather than having it routinely smashed by overpowered attack.

And from the post we've made some simple suggestions for Supercell to implement...
1. Add more walls
2. Create options to narrow the hero activation range (high, medium and low range activation)
3. Add superbombs that do massive damage in a very narrow range, triggered by troops over 1000 hp
4. Create a game option to hide your base from view by players outside your clan (to counter the i-mod-game ♥♥♥♥)
5. Add a loot bonus for defence wins

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Ditto to the comment on BALANCE. Those opposing your idea are making it an "us against them" discussion,but it's not!!! It's about the fairness of a balanced game,to make it enjoyable for the greatest number of people. You make sense to me.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Queenslander

Ditto to the comment on BALANCE. Those opposing your idea are making it an "us against them" discussion,but it's not!!! It's about the fairness of a balanced game,to make it enjoyable for the greatest number of people. You make sense to me.:rolleyes:

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Dude calm down.

You could even maintain the current balance of the game by using ideas 4 & 5. Helping prevent players get fake attacked by ♥♥♥♥ programs and reward successful defenses with a league bonus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Queenslander

Ditto to the comment on BALANCE. Those opposing your idea are making it an "us against them" discussion,but it's not!!! It's about the fairness of a balanced game,to make it enjoyable for the greatest number of people. You make sense to me.:rolleyes:

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The key is what is required for the game to be balanced is diffrent in each league (ie inferno towers are fine in masters but overpowered in gold). As long as offense and defense is the same weather you are in champs or silver legue the game will not be balanced.

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Originally Posted by daz258

Dude calm down.

You could even maintain the current balance of the game by using ideas 4 & 5. Helping prevent players get fake attacked by ♥♥♥♥ programs and reward successful defenses with a league bonus.

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I thought my post was quite CALM. There was no flaming or hating,just a rational post in support of a guy who makes sense IMO. Are opinions not welcome here,or just the ideas you agree with?? Sheeeesh:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Crazyscorp

The key is what is required for the game to be balanced is diffrent in each league (ie inferno towers are fine in masters but overpowered in gold). As long as offense and defense is the same weather you are in champs or silver legue the game will not be balanced.

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I'm not sure what measures could be implemented to balance the game. You are correct in saying what works in one league doesn't necessarily apply to all leagues. The OP is trying to create healthy discussion to bring forth ideas but ultimately SC know their own game and must be aware of the imbalance dogging the game. As the players we are passionate about the game in which we invest so much time and money and SC seem to value our input .My previous post was to encourage the OP and others who may be waiting to contribute .:rolleyes:

One of the start screen messages reads "Building good defenses is just as important as aggressive attacking" !

Not any more. As already explains it is obvious that the balance need to be on the attack side. Currently it is just far beyond that, it is extremely on the attack side. That needs to be adjusted.

A suggestion I would have. Let the x-bow should on the target nearest to him, not as right now being killed from units close to him while he is still shooting at the golem farther away.

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Originally Posted by Queenslander

I'm not sure what measures could be implemented to balance the game. You are correct in saying what works in one league doesn't necessarily apply to all leagues. The OP is trying to create healthy discussion to bring forth ideas but ultimately SC know their own game and must be aware of the imbalance dogging the game. As the players we are passionate about the game in which we invest so much time and money and SC seem to value our input .My previous post was to encourage the OP and others who may be waiting to contribute .:rolleyes:

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Pretty sure the idea in my sig could fix most of the issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Queenslander

I'm not sure what measures could be implemented to balance the game. You are correct in saying what works in one league doesn't necessarily apply to all leagues. The OP is trying to create healthy discussion to bring forth ideas but ultimately SC know their own game and must be aware of the imbalance dogging the game. As the players we are passionate about the game in which we invest so much time and money and SC seem to value our input .My previous post was to encourage the OP and others who may be waiting to contribute .:rolleyes:

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This update makes me believe SC has no testers in champions and they seem to ignore their game data/statistics

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Originally Posted by Crazyscorp

Pretty sure the idea in my sig could fix most of the issues.

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Positive suggestions are always welcome. Thanx.:rolleyes:

Hey pred bro!

It's Emile/Merlijn speaking here ;)

I couldnt agree more with you!! Seems that SC refuses to ban ♥♥♥♥ on CoC, ppl are still exploiting the game trough that mod. I would be happy too see a basedesign save and load option. Just load a crappy base when online and attacking and load the better base when doing a defense. Just so ppl cant sandbox your base and find the weakness as you already said.

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Originally Posted by carpediem99

This update makes me believe SC has no testers in champions and they seem to ignore their game data/statistics

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I'm hoping my faith in them will be vindicated in the next update. Perhaps they use the forums to gauge the success of updates.Danke!!

How is this thread still open?

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

The fix is easy... supercell could add an option where you had the ability to hide your base from view by players outside your clan (please supercell) :)

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I agree that this option would be phantastic and help the game a lot.
Those that want to show off their base to the public can still do so and thos that prefer to keep the advantages of their base designs more or less invisble to others can also do so.

Great idea !

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Originally Posted by Bertellovich

I would be happy too see a basedesign save and load option. Just load a crappy base when online and attacking and load the better base when doing a defense. Just so ppl cant sandbox your base and find the weakness as you already said.

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another great idea !

There are many ways to improve the defence aspect of the game. Alot of them have been proposed before;

- Lower activation circle so they are hard to lure and the "Defence" mode actually has a purpose.
- Invisible walls, that are invisible unless troops come in range of like 2 tiles. Maybe lvl11 walls need a wall switch mode for visible/invisible. Just call it tesla walls. Hows that for a strategy changer!
- Defensive spell traps, a lightning spell trap on wizards could make the difference, or a heal spell on buildings activated on the first hit
- Trap upgrades. Wooden trap can be upgraded to a cast iron trap which also hits Pekka's or Golems. Traps can be switched to jump mode, or glue mode so troops get stuck in a pool of a slimy substance
- Big bomb switch, explosive power or range in tiles
- Add splash damage for king attack on defence.
- Introduce more behavior on walls, combination of multiple walls have effect on troops jumping (or not) over.
- Activate hero special abilities on defence too
- Builders help on defence, distracting attack troops just like the skeletons on witches do on offence.

And I can go on and on and on. And... SuperCell aren't idiots. They have a skilled team and enough reasons so there probably is a business strategy behind the imbalances.

Simple they make more money long term with offence rather than defence being a fixed cost and that is it

i agree i think that supercell needs to have a defence-orientated update soon, they could add lvl 13 cannons or lvl 9 wizard towers or mortars

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Originally Posted by carpediem99

One of the start screen messages reads "Building good defenses is just as important as aggressive attacking" !

Not any more. As already explains it is obvious that the balance need to be on the attack side. Currently it is just far beyond that, it is extremely on the attack side. That needs to be adjusted.

A suggestion I would have. Let the x-bow should on the target nearest to him, not as right now being killed from units close to him while he is still shooting at the golem farther away.

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Yes, it's near enough impossible to WIN a defence but good defences and layout are essential to preventing complete wipe out.

Supercell may need to increase defence power a bit but they also need to do something about the GoWiWi army. Pretty much every high level players base has the exact same army / spell combination.

What did they say about lowering the Rage spell? Something like "Rage spell reduced because every high level battle contained it". Well, 99% same with GoWiWi. Nerf this army.

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Originally Posted by Stitch

Yes, it's near enough impossible to WIN a defence but good defences and layout are essential to preventing complete wipe out.

Supercell may need to increase defence power a bit but they also need to do something about the GoWiWi army. Pretty much every high level players base has the exact same army / spell combination.

What did they say about lowering the Rage spell? Something like "Rage spell reduced because every high level battle contained it". Well, 99% same with GoWiWi. Nerf this army.

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Idea on how to nerf make inferno proffered target heros and golems so they get locked on to then also nerf heros a bit while adding another 10 hero lvls 😨

I totally agree with the notion that defense is useless
But it actually only applies to the top tier. The lower tier will either be attacked by the obvious stronger player and find player that are weaker then them.
What i have in mind is to actually fix the trophy system. It's broken, a th10 can put himself in the silver league... C'mon, in sports you don't pit the national league player with the city league players. We'll need a trophy system where you'll be put to your respective place.

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Originally Posted by LordRadwan

How is this thread still open?

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This thread is still open because players feel it is important to them . If you have nothing to contribute,just sit back and watch. Let's see where it goes.:rolleyes:

Not read all 8 pages so maybe someone already said this.

Yes, last update was a buff to offence only. But it needed it.

Before that there were loads of updates focussed on improving defence. Disco/level 3 infernos, level 12 archer towers, upgradeable traps, all of the hog nerfs. Before the last one, there hadn't been a major offence buff for months.

I've never been as mad as in this push. Last push as TH9 I got 50+ defensive wins. This push I have won 1 (!) defense.

I've raided roughly 635 million gold and 2 million Dlix. Yet I get runover by every GoWiWi that sees me.

I got to 2900 by barching. That was my limit this time. Then I got no further. My GoWiWi isn't maxed. Next push I'll cop out and just use that ♥♥♥♥ty combo after 2900, just following the herd.

Predator right on for posting this I will have to agree with you that offense is overpowered and there needs to be a balance. I've been mentioning this on the forums awhile back but looks like SC don't care so I give up on the game. They do need to make the game more challenging instead of this easy win on most of the attack. If poker was as easy as winning on offense in this game I would be winning on every single hand but in reality it won't happen.

look kid this is called buisness, with the new hero abilities the players will want something else to protect them, and that thing will probably be very expensive. Just like the level 11 walls and a few months later the new wallbreaker ai

Lacking defense is really the true cause of clouds at Champs.

The argument that attack should be more powerful than defense, however, is wrong. As long as there can be differences in skill, the game won't stall, and thinking of the current clouds issue, it would actually be better that people were not automatically attacking every base they see. That should produce a better top players list than the current system when you think a champions league player can logoff freely because a master I player may not be able to win... but as long as skill is a factor.

On the proposed changes, nerfing the superheroes is something not said and it would not affect people outside champs. But that still would not be enough. Ideally SC would nerf the heroes, introduce something special against heroes, and then balance offense vs. defense in champions league by adjusting percentage needed for one star to gain 50-50 ratio on average, or a ratio that slightly favors defense, because that actually may be preferable. For those who do not understand that, it means there are still players who win more attacks than lose, but on average people lose more.

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

It's pretty clear with a quick glance at the Top 200 players that the current game is heavily unbalanced - with attack totally dominant. The only way to become a top player is to focus on attack and you can pretty much ignore defence (most use ♥♥♥♥game to extend their shields so they minimise their defence).

Yet for some reason Supercell continue to strengthen attack and are further unbalancing the game. This causes numerous problems. First, anyone interested in the defence side of the game faces the pointless task of trying to defend against heavily overpowered attack. Pretty demotivating and the reason why many top defence players have quit the game. Second, top attack players have difficulty finding bases offering decent cups to attack, and sometimes can't even find a base. This is simply because defence players can't reach their cup range because attack is so overpowered.

So what has been Supercell's response? Take a look at the recent update.
- Added hero powers for the King and Queen - powers that greatly strengthen hero attack power but do nothing to address the problem heros face on defence (they are easily drawn and killed cheaply due to their high activation range and weakness against witches) => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- A longer freeze spell which further reduces the power of infernos and critical middle defence buildings protecting your town hall => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- Minion level 6 ... given no one smart uses minions for clan castle defence => stronger attack, nothing for defence.

So my question for the forum community is why has Supercell killed off the defence side of the game?

Predator


Suggestions made throughout this post to address the issue for Supercell to implement...
1. Add more walls
2. Create options to narrow the hero activation range (high, medium and low range activation)
3. Add superbombs that do massive damage in a very narrow range, triggered by troops over 1000 hp
4. Create a game option to hide your base from view by players outside your clan (to counter the i-mod-game sandbox attack problem)
5. Add a loot bonus for defence wins

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they improved valkyries, valkyries are the best troop to have in a clan castle for defence

It's called CLASH of clans, not clans-that hide behind walls

If defense was better than attack then people would not attack much, if at all. Overall, these players would be playing the game LESS, and would not be buying gems as much or maybe even at all. If defense became overpowered it would ruin the game.

Paladin

Make AQ/BK multi-shot/cleave against skeletons. That might be an ok fix

A lot of the other issues I think are difficult to fix. Champions league doesn't exist in a bubble (though that might help)
SC kind of had a formula that worked for all the levels they created pre-release.

TH9 was still pretty functional. TH10 teetered over the cliff. They kind of just kept +1ing everything.

Now TH10 is far too easy to attack if you have max heroes and no concern about spell/troop cost and time.
TH10 pretty much can't be farmed. At least not in the way players did the rest of the game. At a TH9, you could pick on the TH8s still with the same kind of troop comp you'd used the whole game plus preemie & dead TH9s. Balloonion has pretty good success against TH10's but it's a 32-40 minute army. The multi inferno addition made it more difficult, locked out giant/healer and made preemie Th10's exponentially more difficult.

Any change that would make Champ tougher is probably going to kill farmers.

The extra spell slot at 9 and 10 increased the attack power between a "normal" attack and an all out attack by a lot. Would allowing the 5th slot for flexibility but only allowing 4 spells to be dropped in a battle help Champ defense much? I doubt it would bother most farmers

It might have to wait until TH11. I've been assuming for a while that TH11 will have to overhaul the game in some manner.

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

It's pretty clear with a quick glance at the Top 200 players that the current game is heavily unbalanced - with attack totally dominant. The only way to become a top player is to focus on attack and you can pretty much ignore defence (most use ♥♥♥♥game to extend their shields so they minimise their defence).

Yet for some reason Supercell continue to strengthen attack and are further unbalancing the game. This causes numerous problems. First, anyone interested in the defence side of the game faces the pointless task of trying to defend against heavily overpowered attack. Pretty demotivating and the reason why many top defence players have quit the game. Second, top attack players have difficulty finding bases offering decent cups to attack, and sometimes can't even find a base. This is simply because defence players can't reach their cup range because attack is so overpowered.

So what has been Supercell's response? Take a look at the recent update.
- Added hero powers for the King and Queen - powers that greatly strengthen hero attack power but do nothing to address the problem heros face on defence (they are easily drawn and killed cheaply due to their high activation range and weakness against witches) => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- A longer freeze spell which further reduces the power of infernos and critical middle defence buildings protecting your town hall => stronger attack, nothing for defence.
- Minion level 6 ... given no one smart uses minions for clan castle defence => stronger attack, nothing for defence.

So my question for the forum community is why has Supercell killed off the defence side of the game?

Predator


Suggestions made throughout this post to address the issue for Supercell to implement...
1. Add more walls
2. Create options to narrow the hero activation range (high, medium and low range activation)
3. Add superbombs that do massive damage in a very narrow range, triggered by troops over 1000 hp
4. Create a game option to hide your base from view by players outside your clan (to counter the i-mod-game sandbox attack problem)
5. Add a loot bonus for defence wins

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Hi Predator,

with your considerations you focussed it perfectly: Actually successful defence over 3500 trophies is not existing anymore, the game is completely unbalanced and there is a definite need for rebalance!

As gameplay actually works at high level, the only reason to build a good base is to minimize the risk of getting 2- or 3-starred, but if the attacker is not drunk, with GoWiWi, freeze and rage spell and maximized op heroes he will win always against every maximized base and i have been definitely one of Germany's best defensive players over the last year and spent a lot of time in base-designing.

In my opinion the most successful and easy way of rebalancing would be having the option of choosing the super heroes' defensive range when setting up your defense ( low/mid/high) , so that they cannot be killed before the attack at one corner of the battlefield and be a real part of your defence.

Another rebalancing idea would be having defensive spells, such as defensive freeze spells put in a definite place, just like an ice- bomb, or a slowing-down-spell triggered in a definite range...

And one last thought for SC: Why should people actually even spend time and (maybe ;) ) money/gems for good defences when defending has become quite useless....so maybe this could be another reason to rebalance the game? Good point, carpediem!

Thanks for reading this,
Keep on clashing and don't quit (like a lot of top defensive players unfortunately already did), I'm still hoping for a good rebalanced fair game!

J

For heroes, make it so they can't get lured outside their trigger range, it's silly that you can send in 1 troop in the middle and then drop a troop somewhere in the corner of the map to lure him out and kill him with almost no losses.
So heroes stay within trigger range, if a troop is outside trigger range the BK/AQ won't attack it even if he/she have been triggered already. And second, the hero ability should auto trigger at 50% health on defense.

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Originally Posted by Waffles

Predator right on for posting this I will have to agree with you that offense is overpowered and there needs to be a balance. I've been mentioning this on the forums awhile back but looks like SC don't care so I give up on the game. They do need to make the game more challenging instead of this easy win on most of the attack. If poker was as easy as winning on offense in this game I would be winning on every single hand but in reality it won't happen.

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If you win on most attacks push higher and stop clicking next. That should make things more challenging. Now we first choose the troops to use in a raid and then go seeking a suitable target. For example when pushing with balloonians I look for target with xbows down, lure archer queen and if possible single infernoes. Being 1-2 th's lower then is just icing on the cake :)

How has the situation changed since the start of the game? There has been new troops, new defensive buildings and new levels to both. What is now the straw that has broken the camels back that we are talking if SC has killed defense? The fact that more players are not maxing their base and spending months on it to simply enjoy raiding with as high troops as possible?

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Originally Posted by chaddypatch

No matter what theres going to be complaints about what supercell does with the game.. Now, people complain its impossible to win on defense. If they beef up defenses, people will complain that defenses are too OP and its too hard to win on offense.. There will be complaints like this always, best you can do is to adapt to the changes that happen and play on. Either that or stop playing it.

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This is a very good point, and just to add to it, the game can't be completely balanced. Offense must always have an advantage, because defending is passive. If the game favored defense or made defending equally advantageous compared to offense, less people would play. And less people playing means less gemming for SC. Just saying.

One option would be to add a Champion Town Hall after th10. Then there would be all kind of new defensive bulldings and other goodies for it but as a downside you would be limited to playing in Champion league there after. Currently Champion ranges from 3200 to 4500 so there would be room for all. Adding more defense to th10's would just mess the game play as I guess majority of th10's are not in Champion but rather farming in the lower leagues where people are cursing inferno towers enough allready.

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Originally Posted by ol1212

they improved valkyries, valkyries are the best troop to have in a clan castle for defence

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When did they get the ability to throw their axe in the air?

Can't wait to raid your village ;)

I think you are looking for an impossible balance, the choice of offensive/defensive match up is in the hands of the attacker, no attacker is going to take on a base unless they believe they have a very high chance of success, even more so at champ level as the consequences for failing are even more severe.

If you were to get to a position where the most favourable match up was even as balanced as 70/30 the attacker would have to search for a very long time to find something suitable and most would just not bother attacking at all.

You will always get the odd misjudged or overly optimistic attack but in general the attacker is always going to find a base that they can beat if they search for long enough.

No matter how many threads you make saying how things are bad, there will always be those sc licking fanboys who will say youre wrong and if you dont like you could stop playing

Of course they say that because theyre very far from what youre experiencing, but then when they start seeing the same problem they say oh no this game needs an improvement the guy was right herp derp!!

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Originally Posted by PredatorBonbeeCanada

- Minion level 6 ... given no one smart uses minions for clan castle defence => stronger attack, nothing for defence.

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You calling me stupid?... :p

I guess they should fix the matchmaking in champions first.

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Originally Posted by M0rtix

I guess they should fix the matchmaking in champions first.

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I like to think if defense was a bit more balanced, players in Champs wouldn't pull every trick in or off the books to avoid defense. That would increase the available bases to raid which is a big part of the problem there.

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Originally Posted by Angray

I like to think if defense was a bit more balanced, players in Champs wouldn't pull every trick in or off the books to avoid defense. That would increase the available bases to raid which is a big part of the problem there.

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Problem is that the same players can play in lower leagues also. Currently in lower leagues people usually raid either weaker same level th's or one level lower th's. Adding defense would have limited effect on these raids, however it would make it even harder to fight a harder same level th or a higher level th.

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Originally Posted by Gubert

No matter how many threads you make saying how things are bad, there will always be those sc licking fanboys who will say youre wrong and if you dont like you could stop playing

Of course they say that because theyre very far from what youre experiencing, but then when they start seeing the same problem they say oh no this game needs an improvement the guy was right herp derp!!

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But has there been a major change? Matchmaking has been a strugle in Champion for months at least, not based on personal experience but reading the forum. Personally will never feel the pain really as I have no interest in gemming so I would be anyway bringing a knife to a gunfight in Champion.

Nowhere in this thread does anyone recommend nerfing heroes.

Lets face it, top level play is all about getting your heroes past a couple walls and they do all the rest. Level 40 heroes are completely overpowered. We all know it. If your level 40 heroes were level 20 instead, instantly, you would be winning on defenses at the top again.

Heroes completely unbalance the game.

That being said, a maxed army coming in and only being able to 1 star you is a fairly successful defense i would say. The heroes OPness threw the match in the attackers favor.

The only real way to change things up is to add more AI behavior options for both defensive buildings, heroes, and CC. If everything is customizable, attackers wont know exactly what to expect...

I agree. Changing the game frequently would make it more interesting. One of the best times I had on the game was creating a base that defended well and took me most of the way to 3,736 with a few attacks thrown in. I was attacking 2 or 3 times a day but would win 40% of def so I moved up nicely. Now that would be impossible so whatever I do with the current structure I can't ever beat my previous record unless I do naughty stuff or six hour attack schedules.

IGN The_Professor
Clan (empty)
Max 3,736

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Originally Posted by GADpls

I feel like all this is unfair, and you will too if you think about it.
I have 325 million gold grab -- I realize this is nothing compared to some people, but that's not the point. I have strong defenses: maxed splash damage, and level 10 single shot. My heroes are low levels (6 and 3) but they defend my base, and it isn't bad for someone who has never purposely farmed dark elixir. I digress.
I've always been one to focus on defense; whether to make someone look silly trying to attack me, or just to have the prestige tokens of high level defenses, it doesn't matter. I assume most of you guys are the same.
My main point is that it really bothers me that Supercell buffs and nerfs troops and spells all the time, but the last noticeable change to defenses they made was either disco ball infernos or reducing upgrade time on wizard towers. That was a darn long time ago.
I realize that it might throw the game off a bit (just like any change that they make...i.e reducing the hp of hogs) but I feel like as long as they give us something new to adjust to, something new to work with and figure out, it will keep us busy doing SOMETHING.
Thanks for reading this far. I like ranting. :)

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How about the defending heroes get a boost too? Lets say once they are down to 50% of their HP their super powers are triggered... now that would really change things!

Lets see who wins when a max archer queen on def suddenly disappears to the attackers...

IGN The_Professor
Clan (empty)
Max 3,736

Great thread.

personally im in the camp that says " i have no real intention of pushing my base to its true capability". The reasons for this are pretty much outlined in the OP. Defence has its place in the game, this unfortunately basically relates exclusively to farmers.

Once past 2800 its pretty much log off and cross your fingers.

i personally would not be willing to wait 3 hours for my heros to regen / spells and army to cook, to then search 30 mins plus to find a raid, only for that effort to be nullified the moment i log off.

I find it laughable when i look upon the top 20/30 players to see a handful of defensive wins amoungst them.

It is a real shame that the top tier of this game is reserved for the pay to play community and at the end of the day the fact that it is is why there are so many inherent issues up there.

How to combat this i dont think i have an answer.. Unless of course they revert infernos / hogs and then pretty much that would open the gates again for a fast build and powerful army to allow the masses to rise up without having to dig deep into their wallets

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Originally Posted by IRoss

You calling me stupid?... :p

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Haha I love this... I guess I am also stupid.