Loot System isn't the problem..... Production is the problem

Well i haven't post anything in several days on the forums and there are post after post with people complaining about the loot system. So once again I'm going to try to explain whats going on in the game.

The loot system I believe is fine. The problem is the mines they don't produce enough gold. Now before someone pops off with your supposed to farm the resources take 2 second and think about that, the resources you are farming come from the mines. All the gold in the game is from the mines. (The bonus i would say pays for the Next Button) It take 6000 days to produce enough gold for one person to have enough gold to complete the current upgrades. ( I would say it is more than that not everyone has 7 max out mines but in a perfect world its around 6000 days. )

The game is one sided in resource and that is gold. Right now if you where to attack me you would be able to steel less then 100K in gold but 600K in elixir. Why is that Gold upgrades are just under 3 billion and elixir upgrades are 500 Million. Almost every battle i fine in the list the elixir is 3 to 4 time the amount of gold.

We shouldn't be complaining about the loot system but the production of the resources, or the fact that gold is 6 time that of elixir in upgrades.

Last time I said that someone popped off with elixir is used in troops. I know but if you are farming you aren't farming with 10 dragons.

Gold is down in the game because active players are dumping the gold has fast as they can get it. I am farming lv9 walls so every Million I get I buy a wall. Has anyone else noticed the wall lv seem to be on the rise. I believe that more people are bumping the gold into wall then before the loot system changed. Super Cell made it possible for the higher up town halls to steel 600K so I don't believe the problem is the loot system.

Just my 2 Cents
Danielg
Killer Minions

Remove level 9, 10, and 11 walls and you won't have gold problems anymore.

I stopped at level 7 walls so I could make the other upgrades without playing 4 hours a day. Everywhere I go, people have 35k gold available but level 8 and 9 walls. Don't ask where all the gold is, it's in the walls. And upgrading the gold mines output won't change a thing because people will just buy walls faster.

Loot was great when mine boost was cheap. Because not everybody could empty their mines fast enough and people didn't care much about losing gold in mines because it was almost free.

People asked what "farming" was. Now they will ask what "collecting" is because 50% of my gold come from my mines and not farming.

I strongly agree, the game's updates and more costly upgrades came along and the pumps/mines became almost obsolete.

On a Micro Economic level, yes the mines are nearly obsolete, with such a small percentage of a farmer's gold coming from his own mines.

However, on a Macro Economic level, if everyone would just upgrade their mines (or add additional mines or levels) then there would be more gold in the economy. Sure walls would be built faster; but once walls at level 9 are complete, you need 3 million in storages before you can 'dump' gold. There is a good amount to raid from this from storages.

Plus, the best raids are still from collectors; so with the additional mines or levels, you would get better raids; all else being equal.

I definitely agree! However the new loot system is hurting everyone more than the previous system. Now people click "next" a lot more than before. I believe that many people "next" more than 100 times for a match = 100k which is about 20% of daily production of full 7 level 11 gold mines.
hopefully there will be mines lv.12 soon!!

Noooo, don't remove level 9 walls. They look so nice.

Yes, this is so true! Check the math out here: http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...urce-Buildings

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Sort of agree. The fact that most people dont have around 4million gold lying around in their storages. The loot system is based on hoping people have either resources in the storages or uncollected mines and pumps. An extra level is not going to make the complete difference in finding loot. People will just accumulate more gold then dump it into walls.

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Originally Posted by cwcaesar

On a Micro Economic level, yes the mines are nearly obsolete, with such a small percentage of a farmer's gold coming from his own mines.

However, on a Macro Economic level, if everyone would just upgrade their mines (or add additional mines or levels) then there would be more gold in the economy. Sure walls would be built faster; but once walls at level 9 are complete, you need 3 million in storages before you can 'dump' gold. There is a good amount to raid from this from storages.

Plus, the best raids are still from collectors; so with the additional mines or levels, you would get better raids; all else being equal.

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I still look at it in days. 7 max out mine would take 6000 days to pump enough gold into the economy for 1 person to complete the upgrades. Times that by 100,000 people and the numbers just don't work. Mines need to double the rate just to start to make a difference.

I believe Super Cell has played around with this idea a couple of time the 1 gem mine boost for weeks at a time. I personal saw a difference then.

Is this going to be a stop to the complaining. No I don't think you can make everyone happy but lets move the finish line a little closer 6000 day is a long time.

I still think the should make level 12 collectors

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Originally Posted by MaybacLuvsEmeal

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Sort of agree. The fact that most people dont have around 4million gold lying around in their storages. The loot system is based on hoping people have either resources in the storages or uncollected mines and pumps. An extra level is not going to make the complete difference in finding loot. People will just accumulate more gold then dump it into walls.

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I will agree that people will continue to pump gold into the walls but lv9 is 1 million and lv10 is 3 million they will have to store some gold in order to get 3 million. I really believe after 3 to 4 weeks people would start to see a big bump in the amount of gold they could fine is the mine double the rate they are now. So 7 max out mine would go from 504,000 a day to just over a million a day.

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Originally Posted by Urwhour

I still think the should make level 12 collectors

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But we need to express that level 12 need to be more then a 10% or 20% jump really need to be like a 100% jump in production just to help.

I guess they could infuse a bigger bonus triple the current bonus level might infuse enough gold to start to help.

Or the money spent on the next goes to the guy you skip. But I believe that is way more coding into the game. My dad always said keep it simple thing tend to work out better. Why over think the problem and the fixes. The Simple fix is more gold production.

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Originally Posted by Danielg

I will agree that people will continue to pump gold into the walls but lv9 is 1 million and lv10 is 3 million they will have to store some gold in order to get 3 million. I really believe after 3 to 4 weeks people would start to see a big bump in the amount of gold they could fine is the mine double the rate they are now. So 7 max out mine would go from 504,000 a day to just over a million a day.

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Then you would have to hope most people have level 9 walls or higher which the majority of the players do not. Then you would have to also hope that the person doesn't dump it into something else thats relatively inexpensive or hope they sign off just before they have enough for the upgrade.

While people will debate over whether loot is or isn't a problem for an eternity, or at least until Supercell makes the loot bonuses 100k/100k in silver, I definitely agree with the title of the thread. Especially, at th 10, the new loot system isn't the problem. Assuming that th 10s, when farming, mostly attack other th 10s and th 9s, the worst case scenario in terms of decreased loot is when the defender has 1 million gold in storages, in which the amount available to the attacker decreased by about 100k from the old system to the new.

The difference between the old loot system and the new decreases once the defender has over a million gold, and the two systems are roughly equal when the defender has 1.67 million gold in their storages at th 9 or 2 million gold in storages at th 10. However, since the new loot system has a higher loot cap, the amount of gold available will continue to increase until the defender has 2.92 million in storages at th 9 or 4 million in storages at th 10.

Thus, assuming that a th 10 attacker would attack for any gold over 100k (which seems a bit low, but is a nice round number), they would see less gold available from the new loot system if the defender had anywhere from 556k gold to 1.67 gold at th 9 or 500k gold to 2 million gold at th 10. Above 1.67 million (at th 9) or 2 million (at th 10), a th 10 attacker would see more gold under the new loot system. Whether the number of people in those ranges is greater than the number above those ranges is anyone's guess, but mine would be that they are roughly equal.

If they are indeed fairly equal, that means that the new loot system itself has more or less preserved the amount of loot available (this is of course excluding inactives, as I do not include Supercell's placement of bases in the attacking que as part of the new loot system). However, since loot for attackers has been shifted to bases with more of it, I think it is fairly safe to say that the loot available now is better-protected than that under the old system. If this is the case, it obviously has negative repercussions for some (those with cheaper armies going for easier loot), but is a net positive for others (those who attack less often with tougher armies). This, I hypothesize, has contributed in large part to the polarization of the forums: the loot is still there, but it is indeed tougher to get.

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Originally Posted by Danielg

Well i haven't post anything in several days on the forums and there are post after post with people complaining about the loot system. So once again I'm going to try to explain whats going on in the game.

The loot system I believe is fine. The problem is the mines they don't produce enough gold. Now before someone pops off with your supposed to farm the resources take 2 second and think about that, the resources you are farming come from the mines. All the gold in the game is from the mines. (The bonus i would say pays for the Next Button) It take 6000 days to produce enough gold for one person to have enough gold to complete the current upgrades. ( I would say it is more than that not everyone has 7 max out mines but in a perfect world its around 6000 days. )

The game is one sided in resource and that is gold. Right now if you where to attack me you would be able to steel less then 100K in gold but 600K in elixir. Why is that Gold upgrades are just under 3 billion and elixir upgrades are 500 Million. Almost every battle i fine in the list the elixir is 3 to 4 time the amount of gold.

We shouldn't be complaining about the loot system but the production of the resources, or the fact that gold is 6 time that of elixir in upgrades.

Last time I said that someone popped off with elixir is used in troops. I know but if you are farming you aren't farming with 10 dragons.

Gold is down in the game because active players are dumping the gold has fast as they can get it. I am farming lv9 walls so every Million I get I buy a wall. Has anyone else noticed the wall lv seem to be on the rise. I believe that more people are bumping the gold into wall then before the loot system changed. Super Cell made it possible for the higher up town halls to steel 600K so I don't believe the problem is the loot system.

Just my 2 Cents
Danielg
Killer Minions

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Spot on, sir!

You are correct, too bad they arent gonna do anything about it

I totally agree, but greedy corporate goblins at Softbank won't allow this.

OP while I totally agree with you, the loot system isn't the problem, and that production can technically be linked to the loot problems we are all facing, the fact that supercell is in fact removing inactive villages from the attack que after only a few days of not logging in. That is causing us to notice it more clearly. This then leaves all of us active players, the ones guarding, spending loot as fast as we can and slamming the excess into walls all fighting for the measly amount created by our mines and the minuscule amount given to us by our league bonuses.
Point being that between the massive rearming costs of our defensive traps, the inordinate amount of hitting next and the costs associated with it has taken this once thriving game and turned it into a nightmare. If you haven't noticed that if you were to add up every loot complaint before 2013 Octobers update, it wouldn't amount to even 1% of the loot complaints that we have now. Not even 1%. And here we have super Steve who has jumped into a conversation here and there to say things like "things are looking up" and "Ill have some graphs and post them up for you" (been two months on the first time he lied about that.
The way that supercell has handled this mess is laughable. It has created a sense of distrust of the company. It has turned the forums into a hate filled, argumentative atmosphere where even the most benign thread will turn into a loot argument. If after viewing all of this, pondered, weighed and measured, you can stand on the side of supercells negligence, ignorance and down right lies in these issues, then I can only sigh and believe there must be some kind of extenuating circumstances exempting you from what most of us are experiencing.

I agree either more levels are needed to all resource collectors or rate of production should be increased...Supercell gave a fairly detailed explanation as to why new loot system was necessary, and regardless of whether you agree with them, their logic was in part that so many new defensive upgrades/items had been introduced at high cost that new system was needed to help loot/save for them (i'm paraphrasing off memory so hopefully got that essentially correct lol). But adding some additional levels to mines/collectors/drills would seem a necessary step too, otherwise we continue to just rearrange the existing resources without significant influx of new resources absent 1) tons of new people joining game and continuing to play/level up vs quit at low TH lvl (i have no idea what player population growth looks like so who knows if this is happening) and/or 2) everyone wins every match ups and immediately ceases losing - this would have the effect of adding the only other source of new resources into the game, the league bonus, which is essentially a lost opportunity every time a match is lost. Obviously there's a 3rd option - everyone go gem more resources lol but presumably those who want to, already do...but as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, doesn't help much if everyone dumps gold into walls (and this is particularly a problem for TH10 higher lvls where many have maxed their defenses already).

All of that said, I haven't found the new loot system any worse than the old...but also not any better. Looking at the rate of resource acquisition & long term spending on big items like max walls & heroes I don't think it's viable for it take an active player years (and years) to achieve these and still maintain player interest - especially the more casual player who doesn't have time to raid 20x/day (and not horrendously demoralize new players joining in late). I'm 16 months into this game and I am honestly afraid to calculate how long it will take me to max walls & heroes, even assuming Supercell never released another update, but it'd be measured in years not months.

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Originally Posted by MrScribbler

If they are indeed fairly equal, that means that the new loot system itself has more or less preserved the amount of loot available (this is of course excluding inactives, as I do not include Supercell's placement of bases in the attacking que as part of the new loot system). However, since loot for attackers has been shifted to bases with more of it, I think it is fairly safe to say that the loot available now is better-protected than that under the old system. If this is the case, it obviously has negative repercussions for some (those with cheaper armies going for easier loot), but is a net positive for others (those who attack less often with tougher armies). This, I hypothesize, has contributed in large part to the polarization of the forums: the loot is still there, but it is indeed tougher to get.

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Like I said the loot system isn't the problem its the production rate.

if you have a 1000 people a day download the game it take 42000 max mine to support 1 of those people. The game has a major negative production rate on gold.

I don't care where you farm your gold from the mines or the storage. Make no difference, it still came from the mines. I look at it this way gold per minute made.

Farming in the 1700 to 1900 range looking for only mines for resources my army build was 12 minutes and I can farm between 500K to 1 Million an hour.

I'm currently in Crystal 1 to master 3 army build 24 minutes per build and I still farming about the same amount of gold an hour the bonus helps a lot. I no longer look at the mines but storage and can I get to 2 of them. Elixir is still everywhere up here. Every Night I build as many dragon as I can, just to dump 500K in elixir.

At some point Super Cell is going to have to address this problem just hope is sooner then later.

It is not mine production rate. It is the walls upgrade cost that is the problem. Why should you have to pay 5 million (dont know the exact number) for one wall segment when there are over 200(dont know the number) wall segments in the game. He k, i whis i gould get my troops to tote off the other guys walls and leave his gold alone
1/2 the price of walls leave the loot sys and mines alone

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Originally Posted by Elle2

I'm 16 months into this game and I am honestly afraid to calculate how long it will take me to max walls & heroes, even assuming Supercell never released another update, but it'd be measured in years not months.

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Just under 16 years.

I post a thread last week about how many days have you stolen.. You need just short of 6000 days my math came from the fact that 7 maxed out mines=504,000 per day. So for every 504,000 you still you steel a day that you needed. So how many days have you stolen...

The thread went no where not sure why.. maybe people didn't understand what I was trying to say..

This game is broken into 3 groups of people

The I can Spend whatever I want. Very Small part

The I like to Play but can only do so a couple of times a day. Majority and Thanks for the resources you don't collect

And the I play 8 Hours a day plus.. Not sure what the Graph looks like but I dare say its a small part.

I have 2 kids that play this game and people love to find them all max out mine and I bet they don't play more then 20 minutes a day.. go down their defense log and anywhere from 200K to 400K lost per attack. They like to play just don't get to spend hours doing so.

I dare say that people like my kids make up 90% of the game resources. Can only log in a couple time a day.

Well, there's a few problems with loot and some of them do have to do with the psychology of the new loot system and people dumping gold into walls instead of saving it. As far as maxing collectors goes, the game is set up so that until you get to th9 as long as you can average 1.5 million gold per day farming you don't even need mines. That's a huge flaw as the smart player will look at that and say "Why should I even bother upgrading mines when all I have to do is farm 1.5 mil per day and I can max my base and walls without waiting to max collectors?"

As long as there's no incentives for maxing mines people won't max them. As big of an issue as that is, the bigger issue is the removal of inactives. Every game of this type I've ever played has relied on a farming system of either NPCs (more goblin missions) or inactive players that you can pillage on a regular basis. Taking those out of the matchmaking system kills farming.

And all the evidence points to the fact that this is what SuperCell wants. They want a slower game so it extends the lifespan and results in more gem purchases.

Ok i crunched the numbers. 1 wall cost 8821200 million with a M. Each to max out
You can buy 225 total walls.

Max out cost of all walls
1984770000. That is billion with a B.
Almost 2 billion coins. What the what

Walls are the problem. If sc wants to trade off and make the game fun, Make walls after lvl6 cost 1/2 as much but have build times
Lvl 7 1 min
Lvl 8. 2
Lvl 9. 5
Lvl 10. 10
Lvl 11. 25
That would do it.

It all started when we had the 1 gem boost on all barracks and pumps from December to January. People were left with an abundance of resource and were afraid to lose it in raids and just started "dumping" it on walls. Let's all be serious and know that walls are the last thing on your mind to upgrade (they are just to expensive). Now every time I raid I find bases with level 7 walls and higher and under 100k in gold. The 1 gem boost was the worst thing for the game but the best thing to the players during that month...just my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by Smalls

Well, there's a few problems with loot and some of them do have to do with the psychology of the new loot system and people dumping gold into walls instead of saving it. As far as maxing collectors goes, the game is set up so that until you get to th9 as long as you can average 1.5 million gold per day farming you don't even need mines. That's a huge flaw as the smart player will look at that and say "Why should I even bother upgrading mines when all I have to do is farm 1.5 mil per day and I can max my base and walls without waiting to max collectors?"

As long as there's no incentives for maxing mines people won't max them. As big of an issue as that is, the bigger issue is the removal of inactives. Every game of this type I've ever played has relied on a farming system of either NPCs (more goblin missions) or inactive players that you can pillage on a regular basis. Taking those out of the matchmaking system kills farming.

And all the evidence points to the fact that this is what SuperCell wants. They want a slower game so it extends the lifespan and results in more gem purchases.

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Indeed. Although the lack of inactives I feel is more due to the growth in players rather than anything SC changed. They have Android devices as well as the Asian market now. All these new players looking for the same thing only leads to a shortage in inactive accounts with easy loots. They haven't removed them or changed the way they sit in matchmaking, you still find them. There's more fish is the sea looking for them so they get snatched up quick.

Also on topic, I do indeed dump all my gold into walls. Nothing else for me to spend it on...

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Originally Posted by lanesteele240

It is not mine production rate. It is the walls upgrade cost that is the problem. Why should you have to pay 5 million (dont know the exact number) for one wall segment when there are over 200(dont know the number) wall segments in the game. He k, i whis i gould get my troops to tote off the other guys walls and leave his gold alone 1/2 the price of walls leave the loot sys and mines alone

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This is not the case. The cost is already there so it is a production rate at this point in the game. The wall are the major expense but thread your's is like saying that a 3rd world country doesn't have a food problem but a people problem, or California and the 3 southern state don't have a water shortage they just need to drink less....

Super Cell by all rights can drop the price of the wall but in doing so would really ♥♥♥♥ of the people that spent the $1000's to gem them or the could increase the gold production rate and make the majority of the people happier.

But please don't just pop off with something that you truly don't know or understand..

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Originally Posted by facescraper

Indeed. Although the lack of inactives I feel is more due to the growth in players rather than anything SC changed. They have Android devices as well as the Asian market now. All these new players looking for the same thing only leads to a shortage in inactive accounts with easy loots. They haven't removed them or changed the way they sit in matchmaking, you still find them. There's more fish is the sea looking for them so they get snatched up quick.

Also on topic, I do indeed dump all my gold into walls. Nothing else for me to spend it on...

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I agree with this. And add in the massive advertising blitz they did over the holidays that also brought back people who quit. It just added to the problem. But I did see a quote from Steve back in October that said they will be removing the inactives faster and SuperCell definitely could change the alogorithm to move inactives up into the queue and bring us farmers some relief. They just choose not to.

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Originally Posted by MWB7Pitt

You are correct, too bad they arent gonna do anything about it

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This

10char

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Originally Posted by facescraper

Indeed. Although the lack of inactives I feel is more due to the growth in players rather than anything SC changed. They have Android devices as well as the Asian market now. All these new players looking for the same thing only leads to a shortage in inactive accounts with easy loots. They haven't removed them or changed the way they sit in matchmaking, you still find them. There's more fish is the sea looking for them so they get snatched up quick.

Also on topic, I do indeed dump all my gold into walls. Nothing else for me to spend it on...

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Right on the fact that they add the Android market I think really offset the inactive accounts. I had 20 or so friends and Don't even know how many clan members not playing because they bought a non-apple device and now are back to playing the game.

Let's say pumps take 5 years to max your base. Then mines should take 5 years to max your base as well. I don't think it's right that the ratio of Pump output:Total Elixir Needed != Mine output:Total Gold Needed

Let's just do a simple hypothetical here..

1) SuperCell increases loot production (level 12 collectors, or just increase output of existing levels)
2) People have more loot naturally

People either...
A) Have an easier time keeping builders busy - available loot to raid stays the same, and playing time goes down
B) Never had a problem keeping builders busy, and don't care about walls - playing time goes down, no need for that extra loot
C) Pump that extra gold into walls - available loot to raid stays the same

All of these are bad for SuperCell.

OK, then the next suggestion was to remove level 9, 10, 11 walls. Lol? Walls are a huge source of income for SuperCell. Not going to happen.

How about this - add a SHORT build time to walls - maybe an hour or something. What happens then? People can't dump resources into walls down to zero, so available loot goes up. Casual wall builders aren't really impacted, what's an hour? And wall farmers log in even more, which is great for SuperCell. And gemmers spend even more gems. Also great for supercell.

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Originally Posted by Danielg

This is not the case. The cost is already there so it is a production rate at this point in the game. The wall are the major expense but thread your's is like saying that a 3rd world country doesn't have a food problem but a people problem, or California and the 3 southern state don't have a water shortage they just need to drink less....

Super Cell by all rights can drop the price of the wall but in doing so would really ♥♥♥♥ of the people that spent the $1000's to gem them or the could increase the gold production rate and make the majority of the people happier.

But please don't just pop off with something that you truly don't know or understand..

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Your last line is truly what i could never comprehend (big word for understand). Why on earth would you dump $1k into this game.

The ONLY reason a person with lvl 9/up maxed out walls would cry is that he does not want anybody else under him/her to have them. Makes raids harder, you know.

I gave a real solution to a problem with give and takes.
What good will a lvl 12 collector do for a lvl 10 down th. Not any. What good will a 50k/day boost do. Not much.
You must already have maxed out walls above skulls. That would be the only reason to fuss.

I used to think another Mine level would help but I don't think it would. Most bases I attack don't even have maxed mines and even then it would only be added to TH10 players. The production rates need to increase across the board to make any real difference...

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Originally Posted by lanesteele240

Your last line is truly what i could never comprehend (big word for understand). Why on earth would you dump $1k into this game.

The ONLY reason a person with lvl 9/up maxed out walls would cry is that he does not want anybody else under him/her to have them. Makes raids harder, you know.

I gave a real solution to a problem with give and takes.
What good will a lvl 12 collector do for a lvl 10 down th. Not any. What good will a 50k/day boost do. Not much.
You must already have maxed out walls above skulls. That would be the only reason to fuss.

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First off I never said I put $1000's into the game learn to read.
Second I'm saying that Super Cell need to double their current Gold Production Rate. So not a 50K a day boot 500K a day boost.

The current way the game is setup however you look at it has a gold production problem. If you think that the problem is the cost of wall or not with out a change in either the cost of upgrade or a bonus increase. A Gold production increase is really the only answer.

One last thought lanesteele240
Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt

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Originally Posted by Danielg

First off I never said I put $1000's into the game learn to read.
Second I'm saying that Super Cell need to double their current Gold Production Rate. So not a 50K a day boot 500K a day boost.

The current way the game is setup however you look at it has a gold production problem. If you think that the problem is the cost of wall or not with out a change in either the cost of upgrade or a bonus increase. A Gold production increase is really the only answer.

One last thought lanesteele240
Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt

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I did not mean you "Dangler" i was referring to you as anybody.

Second jacking up gold production to the levels you are talking is stupid dumb.
What that would do is cut the price of EVERY THING in the game in half.
Then you could max each th and complete the in a few months.
Magic mines that spit out 1/2 mill in gold a day is way more foolish than 1/2 price walls.

You must be extra stupid or from the entitled generation.

Last. Just because you post an old adage in bold print does not make you the all knowing king of clashers.

I respect that you have a opinion. Respect that i have one too.
Neither one of our ideas will ever happen.


Sorry i highjacked this tread

Just make collector boosts permanently 1 gem or make gold mines more powerful

I think what people are failing to realize is as more people become closer to maxing their townhalls, more upgrades at a more costly rate will become available; otherwise the game dies.

Instead of extra level or a new collector they could add a multiplier to the TH level so the collectors produced more without further upgrade. Let's say 0.1 extra for each TH level. That would make a maxed Collector produce 5400 for a TH 10 instead of 3000. Would help a lot!

The real problem is that this game has become so popular and people are willing to spend money boosting stuff now that its worthwhile. When you are competing with so many people for loot, it obviously won't be that good.

I agree with op. Although mines collect the same amount as equivalent elixir collectors, upgrades require far more gold.

Yes the loot system isn't necessarily perfect, but its much better off than the upgrades.

I only find at most 50k gold at th5-6 yet 300k elixir? This only means that upgrades require more gold than elixir, which is an imbalance in the game.

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Originally Posted by n3r0s

Instead of extra level or a new collector they could add a multiplier to the TH level so the collectors produced more without further upgrade. Let's say 0.1 extra for each TH level. That would make a maxed Collector produce 5400 for a TH 10 instead of 3000. Would help a lot!

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Hmm...never thought about this...great idea, but then all the th 10 would complain about their collectors being farmed.

Here's another thought. You don't have to increase productions, i.e. directly increase the production rate of all collectors or adding a level 12, you just need people to max their current collectors to level 11. I'm seeing lots of people with under-leveled collectors, like level 8-9. People needs some sort of incentive to upgrade them....something like a small achievement for maxing all their collectors.

This is coming from a town hall seven who probably doesn't know what he's talking about, but would there be anything inherently wrong with making a 'quadratic collector' building of sorts, with very high capacity (upwards of 1 million or more) and that produces resources faster the more is already stored? It'd make more resources in Town Hall Ten circulation, and since it would greatly encourage purchasing of shields to maximize production, Supercell probably wouldn't complain.

If there's no easily detectable flaw I'll make a thread in the suggestions board about it.

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Originally Posted by Underrated1

This is coming from a town hall seven who probably doesn't know what he's talking about, but would there be anything inherently wrong with making a 'quadratic collector' building of sorts, with very high capacity (upwards of 1 million or more) and that produces resources faster the more is already stored? It'd make more resources in Town Hall Ten circulation, and since it would greatly encourage purchasing of shields to maximize production, Supercell probably wouldn't complain.

If there's no easily detectable flaw I'll make a thread in the suggestions board about it.

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They don't want people camping though and playing passively by collecting from their resources to play rather than through battles. They only need a slight adjustment to the current production rates to have great effect. I'm talking like a quarter of the rate faster than they are now or so.

It's hard. With such a large amount of players SC have to tread carefully. I can see their point of view and they had to wait to see how the new loot system would play out. Steve said before they were worried about putting too much resources in the game and how it would destroy it but I honestly feel a slight adjustment is definitely needed... Steve also said in the other thread yesterday SC are happy with the way things are and the amount of nexts on average players are making. It's a real shame they say things like that, if only they realised how truly frustrated some players are becoming playing this game. I can't play quickly anymore. If I have a spare 5 mins there's no way for me to play anymore because it can take over 10mins to find a base worth raiding... :(

Steve's response to loot yesterday:
http://forum.supercell.net/showthrea...62#post1467062

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Originally Posted by SuperSteve[Supercell]

Looking at the statistics, there has only been a small increase in the use of the Next Button since the changes to the loot system. We realize that the experience is different from everyone, and that this result may surprise you and contradict your own experience, but is what the numbers tell us.

As such, we have decided to revisit this in the near future, but don't see any viable solution for the time being that would not be simply reactive - as in, we'd rather create a trophy and loot system that is as closed to perfect as possible instead of making quick changes and short-term solutions.

Essentially what I am saying is that the trophy and loot systems are constant works in progress, and we'll continue looking into making the right changes and adjustments to create the best experience possible for the largest amount of players possible. For the time being, we are not planning to address the increase in "Nexting" but we will take a look again in the near future at other ways to address this problem.

-Steve

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The gold and elixer loot system was designed for a townhall 8, as that used to be the top townhall in the game. Looking at all the upgrades in townhall 9 and 10 and only getting one more mine, it's not wonder there is a massive shortage of gold.

A friend of mine who is no longer playing. Only raided the goblins and just collected. He stopped playing at townahll 7 as he could no longer rely on his collectors to get enough loot for upgrades and the goblin matches had gotten too tough for him.

Its disappointing to see Steve's response to the nexting issue. To me even a small increase in the average number of nexts is too much. I am more likely to settle for a base an I used to be and I am sure others are as well. That would then drive down the true number of nexts we would all need to find a base we actually want to raid.

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Originally Posted by blackcollector

Remove level 9, 10, and 11 walls and you won't have gold problems anymore.

I stopped at level 7 walls so I could make the other upgrades without playing 4 hours a day. Everywhere I go, people have 35k gold available but level 8 and 9 walls. Don't ask where all the gold is, it's in the walls. And upgrading the gold mines output won't change a thing because people will just buy walls faster.

Loot was great when mine boost was cheap. Because not everybody could empty their mines fast enough and people didn't care much about losing gold in mines because it was almost free.

People asked what "farming" was. Now they will ask what "collecting" is because 50% of my gold come from my mines and not farming.

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this... makes me think lol. It is true.....

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Originally Posted by LeefSeer

I agree with op. Although mines collect the same amount as equivalent elixir collectors, upgrades require far more gold.

Yes the loot system isn't necessarily perfect, but its much better off than the upgrades.

I only find at most 50k gold at th5-6 yet 300k elixir? This only means that upgrades require more gold than elixir, which is an imbalance in the game.

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Elixir upgrades are just about 500 Million total. Total days need to reach 500 Million 100 days of 7 max collectors. I stole that (farmed ) before I could even get some of the upgrades.

Gold upgrades total are just short of 3 Billion pull lv10 and 11 wall out of the pictures ( 1.75 Billion ) and is and it is 1.25 Billion needed in gold. Not everyone is worried about walls. That leaves us needing 2480 Days of 7 max gold mine.

Gold need for upgrades is just short of 3 time that of elixir if you pull the last 2 lv of wall out of the picture, and 6 times that if you put the last 2 lv of wall back into the picture. Game is way unbalanced in the resources department.

This is also why on average elixir can be found in the same ratio's. Every battle elixir is 4 to 6 time the amount of gold. Gold is the one resource that need to be addressed in the game.

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Originally Posted by blackba

Its disappointing to see Steve's response to the nexting issue. To me even a small increase in the average number of nexts is too much. I am more likely to settle for a base an I used to be and I am sure others are as well. That would then drive down the true number of nexts we would all need to find a base we actually want to raid.

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I'm very disappointed to read Steve's response. I believe that next button may not be used as much is the fact that people realize how bad the loot is and take the first 100K in gold they can find. I stop on the first people that looks like they haven't been on in 12 hours.

Being a longtime player(oct. 2012-now) I totally agree the increase in production of gold is necessary at this point. However I still feel the real issue with the game isnt the loot system or production rates. Its the lack of new and fresh content. Supercell seems to be focusing on a new game(Boom Beach) and new player base(Android) for CoC, leaving us long time veteran players hopelessly bored, tapping our feet waiting for the day something new and fresh comes along for the game. Last time I posted a long thought out response I was banned for 2 weeks because I asked SC where the content was and mentioned that their competition was busy adding it.. Again I ask.. where is the content? stop being so money driven and make it fun again already! Youll make more money anyway SC and drive the game for years to come.

Production is indeed the problem. A fundamental basic of supply vs demand.

The demand for gold is intense, and can be taken out of the game so easily by dumping it on a wall block. And don't discount how much gold you lose re-arming all your damn traps and hitting next 100s to 1000s of times a day too.

Gold disappears far too easily, the supply cannot keep up.

SuperCell need to acknowledge this and allow the game to generate more gold than it does elixir.

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Originally Posted by Danielg

Well i haven't post anything in several days on the forums and there are post after post with people complaining about the loot system. So once again I'm going to try to explain whats going on in the game.

The loot system I believe is fine. The problem is the mines they don't produce enough gold. Now before someone pops off with your supposed to farm the resources take 2 second and think about that, the resources you are farming come from the mines. All the gold in the game is from the mines. (The bonus i would say pays for the Next Button) It take 6000 days to produce enough gold for one person to have enough gold to complete the current upgrades. ( I would say it is more than that not everyone has 7 max out mines but in a perfect world its around 6000 days. )

The game is one sided in resource and that is gold. Right now if you where to attack me you would be able to steel less then 100K in gold but 600K in elixir. Why is that Gold upgrades are just under 3 billion and elixir upgrades are 500 Million. Almost every battle i fine in the list the elixir is 3 to 4 time the amount of gold.

We shouldn't be complaining about the loot system but the production of the resources, or the fact that gold is 6 time that of elixir in upgrades.

Last time I said that someone popped off with elixir is used in troops. I know but if you are farming you aren't farming with 10 dragons.

Gold is down in the game because active players are dumping the gold has fast as they can get it. I am farming lv9 walls so every Million I get I buy a wall. Has anyone else noticed the wall lv seem to be on the rise. I believe that more people are bumping the gold into wall then before the loot system changed. Super Cell made it possible for the higher up town halls to steel 600K so I don't believe the problem is the loot system.

Just my 2 Cents
Danielg
Killer Minions

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This is very true but.. It is all about cost of units in relation to amount stolen, for example if you use 3 giants and 30 gobs to get 80k gold, it might not seem like a lot but it adds up, you are spending around 8x less than you are using, if you use 12 giants and 50 gobs and 120 archers to get 200k, that is a lot more spent. A lot wasted.

I've been playing this game since Christmas, and one thing that became obvious to me was that mines and extractors don't produce anything like the resources that raiding does. With that in mind my mines and extractors have a lower priority than anything else. For example level 10 mine takes 3 days each to make. I'm not going to waste 3 days when I have barracks, army camps, etc to build or upgrade.

I've just started th7 and most my mines and extractors are level 7-9. I have seen some camps while pressing the NEXT button that have under level 5 mines and extractors and I'm guessing thats in part because they don't get much from them to start with, and they also almost never get attacked because they hold no resources.

I also wonder how many people reduce their funds through cancelling buildings multiple times before logging off.

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Originally Posted by JWALKR

I've been playing this game since Christmas, and one thing that became obvious to me was that mines and extractors don't produce anything like the resources that raiding does. With that in mind my mines and extractors have a lower priority than anything else. For example level 10 mine takes 3 days each to make. I'm not going to waste 3 days when I have barracks, army camps, etc to build or upgrade.

I've just started th7 and most my mines and extractors are level 7-9. I have seen some camps while pressing the NEXT button that have under level 5 mines and extractors and I'm guessing thats in part because they don't get much from them to start with, and they also almost never get attacked because they hold no resources.

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Indeed, yet we all pay for it at the end of the day.

That is why SuperCell really should put in an achievement for completing lv 11 gold mines. It would encourage those to put the time into developing them, and globally more loot will be produced for everyone.

I end up with more gold than elixer which sometimes blows. Walls are good to use on but i need more elixer for spells troops upgrades ect.. So yes please supercell help haha

Im a th8, so this doesnt go for higher th levels, but I believe supercell is adding inactives back into the game. Anywhere between 1300 and 1900 u can find an inactive every 10 raids. Also, in your calculations, you are forgetting gemmers, a bigger part of the economy then you think. They fill gold storage with gems, adding that gold to the system and boost collectors a lot too. And, if you could just sit back and max ur base in a week just from collectors, this game wouldn't be fun. If you want to win and be the best, you cant sit back and just let your collectors do the work.
I read this somewhere else on here, so sorry if I steal ur analogy, but I really like it. If you play one FIFA game every week for 10 minutes, you will never compete online with the hardcore players. If you play GTA once a week for 20 minutes, your never going to get 100% completion. COC is no different. To be good you need to work for it. Point is, being the best at a any game takes commitment. If your not going to play a lot you cant expect to max your base.

I sort of feel like there are just different parts of the game that demand a particular resource. Some TH levels are gold heavy, some elixer heavy, and of course, the higher THs are DE heavy in relation to the buildings and upgrades that are available at particular TH levels. I think an unavoidable problem is also that not everyone maxes their base before they upgrade their TH. If people keep upgrading their THs(perhaps prematurely) but neglect to upgrade their pumps, mines, drills, (or those who exclusively trophey push and neglect building their bases) naturally the loot isn't having the chance to be produced, thus, it has very little chance to be farmed. As others have also mentioned, walls at higher lvls litterally DEVOUR gold, and due to the overpowered offense that is currently in effect(not saying this is good/bad) it stands to reason that people would want to farm their walls. I don't think forcing people to max their bases before upgrading their TH is necessarily the answer, because it would probably ruin the game, however, perhaps SC could find an answer to this issue eventually.

These are just my theories concerning the loot complaints especially pertaining to gold resources. It is of course important to find the proper trophey range in which to farm, this range being of a very small margin, and totally depends on the individual players current state in the game. I personally never played in the glory days of massive raids and insane availability of loot, but after playing and reading the forums I think it is pretty obvious that resources aren't what they used to be. Not complaining though, I play the game that is available to me, and I am content with that.

EDIT: personally I have gold coming out my nose, elixir is what I struggle to find. I'm TH5, so I think this might show that different THs are hungrier for particular resources than others. Upgrades at certain THs are not equal in their consumption of gold/elixir.

Still dont see how there is a loot issue. I find loot fairly easy on both of my accounts. Nothing crazy but enough to make me gem builders because my gold storages are full. Im new to farming but been farming about 5 million gold a day.. And maybe around 15-20k DE because it be in my path lol.

http://i60.tinypic.com/9786zn.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jsf

Im a th8, so this doesnt go for higher th levels, but I believe supercell is adding inactives back into the game. Anywhere between 1300 and 1900 u can find an inactive every 10 raids. Also, in your calculations, you are forgetting gemmers, a bigger part of the economy then you think. They fill gold storage with gems, adding that gold to the system and boost collectors a lot too. And, if you could just sit back and max ur base in a week just from collectors, this game wouldn't be fun. If you want to win and be the best, you cant sit back and just let your collectors do the work.
I read this somewhere else on here, so sorry if I steal ur analogy, but I really like it. If you play one FIFA game every week for 10 minutes, you will never compete online with the hardcore players. If you play GTA once a week for 20 minutes, your never going to get 100% completion. COC is no different. To be good you need to work for it. Point is, being the best at a any game takes commitment. If your not going to play a lot you cant expect to max your base.

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Totally agree about the inactives available. Every base I raided since midnight (3 hrs) has been inactive. I normally find a lot of them but not this many. Been hitting next 5 times max.

How about an increased loot bonus for a 2 star victory, and even higher for a 3 star?

It would inject extra loot while giving people an extra strategical dimension :)

I upgrade walls, this is all, ENDGAME

if you have the foresight you will see how the loot situation will be in 6-12 months time.

now the question is do you have the self control to quit the game?

I agree that a simple achievement being added for maxing collectors would be the easiest solution. SC have said repeatedly that they are wary of upsetting the economy by introducing a fundamental change (be that lvl 12 collectors, loot bonuses, loot systems etc.)

All that an achievement would add is 50 gems or so per player, which, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't really rock the boat, while simply encouraging people to make the most of existing loot production.

Completely agree with the OP and I have also said it before (in one of the numerous loot complain threads). There is simply less gold infused in the CoC economy that it is being spent/needed. It is same as in real life economy. There are 3 dimensions:

1) production (gold produced)
2) consumption (Gold spent )
3) distribution (loot system)

SC had addressed only distribution. And I can even agree that the intention was good (to distribute it more fairly among all players). But the problem is, there is simply not enough production. In real life, this would be an economy crisis.

The problem would already be far solved if TH 7, 8 and 9 get an extra mine and pump as well... They are the only TH's that don't get new ones, but spend the most (walls start to get expensive here). What do you guys think?

They also keep "fixing" the loot system, but that isn't broken at all. It's the production that is broken, not the loot system

well im gonna be th10 soon and those 8 million gold upgrades wont come easy so you have to opertunety to steal some gold while i save up for those, you have to be fast though 8 million is easily done in 2 days

Completely agree. All SC did was change around the formula for loot available to raid from someone, but the real issue is the lack of gold being produced by people. The updated system actually made things worse because people like me stopped carrying a lot of gold in their storages to avoid huge losses. I've been dumping all extra gold in my walls and I will rarely ever have more than 1 mill gold in my storages.

Another big problem I noticed are all these high level people with these level 3 mines and collectors. They know they won't get much from collecting so they don't even bother upgrading them, hurting the economy even more. They need to make upgrading mines and collectors mandatory before you can upgrade the TH or something.

yea lv 12 mines

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Originally Posted by cwcaesar

On a Micro Economic level, yes the mines are nearly obsolete, with such a small percentage of a farmer's gold coming from his own mines.

However, on a Macro Economic level, if everyone would just upgrade their mines (or add additional mines or levels) then there would be more gold in the economy. Sure walls would be built faster; but once walls at level 9 are complete, you need 3 million in storages before you can 'dump' gold. There is a good amount to raid from this from storages.

Plus, the best raids are still from collectors; so with the additional mines or levels, you would get better raids; all else being equal.

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I am part of the problem as the OP pointed out about walls. My base is maxed except for lvl 3 black air bombs and just farming walls atm. Usually boost 2 hours a day to make 3mil and buy a wall. I don't go offline with 3mil in my storages. I imagine many are doing this and those that are are taking a lot of loot out of the economy

Of course you are right. of course they should rename the game to "searching for opponents", that all we do now. But as you all know, SuperCell doesn't care. SuperSteve already said he would fix it publicly multiple times but has completely ignored the issue and not been true to his words.

They said the next update is not until mid-April, so don't expect anything for few months.

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Originally Posted by arold

Completely agree with the OP and I have also said it before (in one of the numerous loot complain threads). There is simply less gold infused in the CoC economy that it is being spent/needed. It is same as in real life economy. There are 3 dimensions:

1) production (gold produced)
2) consumption (Gold spent )
3) distribution (loot system)

SC had addressed only distribution. And I can even agree that the intention was good (to distribute it more fairly among all players). But the problem is, there is simply not enough production. In real life, this would be an economy crisis.

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I'd say gold suffers from both 1 & 2. Production doesn't keep pace with consumption. But I think walls could have a big finger pointed at them. Many many formers have illustrated the demands on loot and if you take out walls the differences in Elixir and gold are greatly reduced.

How if you compare DE and Gold there is a similar sink (heros). Gold still dwarfs it with wall cost but I think the thing that really gives DE an edge is the fact that you have to save it up. Heros quickly ask for well over the cap in DE. A person raiding only for DE can make a hefty some, but as a person who likes his DE the problem is still keeping up with everything else. (not to mention heros require build time)

Just to pull us back on track.

For every new person it requires 4200 Max mine 1 day to = that person debt to the game.
or 6000 Day of 7 Max mines per person. I'm not saying there isn't loot out there but if you take a look and really see where you are steeling the loot it isn't from people storage's it is from their mines.


I have said I'm working on lv9 wall in the past 3 week end of this week will be 4 I have finished 81 wall as of right now.
I get how to farm but I am only farming mines.

I also realize that there are part of this game where resources are no problem at all, but it is because of the the people that play once or twice a day (if you need proof of this just look at the screen shot several post back everyone of those attacks are mines not storage's) , and if those people just upgraded their mines I think gold would be even more abundant.

Elixir can be found on the average at 3 to 4 time the amount of gold. Part of the elixir just happens to be in storage, and that extra amount is in the same ratios of gold verses elixir need in the upgrades.

Now I'm asking for a production increase in Gold mine only. I am not asking the mine be able to hold more. I personal believe that the amount of gold the mines storage and for that part the elixir collectors can hold is way to much.. It takes 50 hours to fill. I think Super Cell figured this out when they came out with the Dark Elixir Drill takes 16 Hours to fill if its is max out. Can you imagine if the Dark Drill could hold say 3200 instead of just 1600.

So if the production was increased and the storage capacity staid the same I think it would help those that are more active and not pump to much into the economy of the game.

Let just Face the truth those that are not willing to put in the time will hit a wall in this game somewhere around the Start of TH9 ( IE my 2 kids ) and that is where 90% of the resources get pumped into the game. Everything starts to add up upgrades start to hit the 4 million mark and they just don't get to play that much, but let me tell you something if you can find them in your attack searches oh boy 800K of Resources are now yours. These are the types of players that sustain this game. The more active players become the more the resources will dry up. I really i'm trying to curb a big resource problem I see head down the pipeline.

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Originally Posted by MWB7Pitt

You are correct, too bad they arent gonna do anything about it

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Very true, SC has already dismissed increasing collector outputs due to SC's fear "of making too much resources". What a joke, they are pretty quick to give everyone more to spend their resources on with every update.

I would personally be very happy to see a lvl upgrade for mines, pumps, and Drills. I think they are waiting until th11 though. I wish they would also increase the production rate of existing mines, pumps, and drills.

I'm a TH10 close to maxing all my elixir upgrades, and currently swimming in the stuff!! I need more goldddd!!

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Originally Posted by Brightpinkstar

I'm a TH10 close to maxing all my elixir upgrades, and currently swimming in the stuff!! I need more goldddd!!

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Welcome to the Town Hall 10 Club.. I have all the elixir research done what to do with 8 million elixir now....

Here is a crazy idea I know it is in the ruled out but maybe its time to revisit it.

An exchange building or something that we can exchange one resource to another.

That exchange service could be like a market exchange that Supper Cell could set
Example one day might be 3 elixir for 1 gold and another day could be 10 elixir for 1 gold. Super Cell would be able to monitor the resources and could set the Exchange much like the stock market. You might look at the exchange one day and its 100 elixir for 1 gold. The current economics of the game says is will always be at more elixir less gold.

Just a thought

I think that fact that as you (rightly) point out is elixir is more abundant than gold makes the argument for increased mines to be redundant. Mines and collectors produce at the same rate. If anything, mines are likely to be higher level as elixir is used to upgrade, and everyone seems to have lots of that.

The problem is that gold is spent too easily - ridiculously expensive upgrades, walls and Nexting. There just isn't enough to spend elixir on. If SC gave us more to spend elixir on, life would be better at high level. When I upgrade a troop now, it takes 14 days. In that time, I amass my 8 mill elixir again. There isn't anything else to spend it on while waiting, so I make loads of dragons and either donate or chuck them at any old base just for fun. If I didn't, my raids would go over the 8 mill mark, and elixir won is wasted.

Any gold is spent on walls. why not? I don't want to sit around with 8 mill in elixir and 7 mill in gold (tryng to make 8 mill)waiting to be plundered by everyone.

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Originally Posted by fister

I think that fact that as you (rightly) point out is elixir is more abundant than gold makes the argument for increased mines to be redundant. Mines and collectors produce at the same rate. If anything, mines are likely to be higher level as elixir is used to upgrade, and everyone seems to have lots of that.

The problem is that gold is spent too easily - ridiculously expensive upgrades, walls and Nexting. There just isn't enough to spend elixir on. If SC gave us more to spend elixir on, life would be better at high level. When I upgrade a troop now, it takes 14 days. In that time, I amass my 8 mill elixir again. There isn't anything else to spend it on while waiting, so I make loads of dragons and either donate or chuck them at any old base just for fun. If I didn't, my raids would go over the 8 mill mark, and elixir won is wasted.

Any gold is spent on walls. why not? I don't want to sit around with 8 mill in elixir and 7 mill in gold (tryng to make 8 mill)waiting to be plundered by everyone.

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I'm not sure you got my point. I know that elixir and mines produce at the same rate that is my hole complaint gold should be produced at 3 to 6 time the current amount. Gold need for current upgrades is just short of 3 billion (with walls and ) 1.25 Billion without wall Elixir need is 500 Million.

I will try to explain it this way.

You use Milk (elixir) for breakfast every day. 1 Gallon last you a week.
You use Bread (Gold ) every day for lunch and Dinner and Anything else. 1 loaf of bread last 1 day.

You go to the Store to buy bread every day under the current system and because your at the store you get milk too a week goes buy you have 6 Gallon of milk and still need bread. Logic say you know I'm going to need 7 loafs of bread let me buy 7 loafs and 1 gallon of milk. The need for gold is much greater and therefor should be produced at a higher rate. Or the demand for Gold needs to be brought back in line with the elixir needed.