Auto adjusting CWL initial seeding

Hi there, I'm an experienced clasher, maybe one of the best around, with a war log to prove it.

Early on in cwl we would take advantages in it's weaknesses for medals but with the update for 8 medals for full rewards, it turned the tables to make higher leagues more profitable for lower level members. In the case of regular clans though, fighting high would mean coming last for several CWLs since it seems as though the initial placement is so high. I find this a more detriment since their first outing to CWL is likely to end in demotion.

It seems to me that the initial placement isn't being adjusted regularly.

What SC should do, is once CWL signup has closed, take the average defense weight of all clans in every tier for the next CWL, for more accurate placements, can look back at past 3-4 CWL for average weights and take the average growth over the period within a 1-5% margin of error. This could be applied at any time after a CWL and would be more accurate, especially if the initial placement was deemed to be be higher (average +10٪ for medals), or lower for wins.

I do think it needs adjusting and that might even include not having Masters1 as the top initial placement. I'd like to see SC use the average weight of the accounts in the actual wars from the month before to determine the placement the next month. I also think the gap of power between tiers is too great. I'd like to see 15v expand up to titan league by starting with titan3 and slowly filling up to titan1.

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Originally Posted by MajorJohnson

Hi there, I'm an experienced clasher, maybe one of the best around, with a war log to prove it.

Early on in cwl we would take advantages in it's weaknesses for medals but with the update for 8 medals for full rewards, it turned the tables to make higher leagues more profitable for lower level members. In the case of regular clans though, fighting high would mean coming last for several CWLs since it seems as though the initial placement is so high. I find this a more detriment since their first outing to CWL is likely to end in demotion.

It seems to me that the initial placement isn't being adjusted regularly.

What SC should do, is once CWL signup has closed, take the average defense weight of all clans in every tier for the next CWL, for more accurate placements, can look back at past 3-4 CWL for average weights and take the average growth over the period within a 1-5% margin of error. This could be applied at any time after a CWL and would be more accurate, especially if the initial placement was deemed to be be higher (average +10٪ for medals), or lower for wins.

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To me, this sounds like an engineers playground. Create a new clan each CWL with lower weight defenses and higher weight offense/heroes and let the CWL spin put me in a tier where I can dominate each and every season by reseeding. This would create an artificial ceiling where Those less gifted in engineering are perpetually in limbo as the top spots in the tier are taken by those who have no intent to promote and will reseed into that same tier next season. I know there are many clans out there who have cultivated a “never ever lose” mindset which is great for winstreak chasing but limits their tolerance for losing in CWL. Those clans would LOVE to be able to create a scenario where they never lose a battle day or war or regular war.

I would much prefer a seeding system such as today, where it seeds you a bit higher and you get more medals as you work your way down in tiers rather than being destroyed each and every month lower down with zero chance at promotion as those spots are taken by those who would game the system.

When SC restructed the medal gains for each tier, they should have done a reset then, as nany clans were a lot lower than they should have been.
Yet, SC did not do so.
Kind of too late for a reseeding if clans now.

Also, I would hate a regular or even a semi-regular auto adjust for clans.
This would mean that all clans in champs 1-3 would get reseeded into masters 1-3 every so often.
Clans put in a lot of effort to get into champs and it'd be unfair if the auto-reseeding kept placing them back in masters every once in a while.

Not to mention the abuse that already occurs: a Clan A creates an alt clan called Clan B, but they put in low level accounts. Do cwl for Clan B at a low league, then the next month, Clan A puts all their heavy bases into Clan B, while the bases in Clan B go to Clan A.
Clan B would dominate, while Clan A gets demoted.
Swap the bases each month, so that one clan is always getting promoted and the other demoted, thus keeping the clans roughly in the same league.

I think major is talking about the initial seeding when a clan joins CWL for the first time, not a monthly reseeding.

monthly reseeding would be disastrous as everyone is pointing out.

Initial seeding based on the actual weights in each league the previous season sounds like an easy sensible method.

and it really doesnt matter if clans "engineer" a high or low seeding because they can change their whole roster from month to month anyway to move up or down

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Originally Posted by Iftheskyisblue

I think major is talking about the initial seeding when a clan joins CWL for the first time, not a monthly reseeding.

monthly reseeding would be disastrous as everyone is pointing out.

Initial seeding based on the actual weights in each league the previous season sounds like an easy sensible method.

and it really doesnt matter if clans "engineer" a high or low seeding because they can change their whole roster from month to month anyway to move up or down

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Creating a new clan each month effectively means being reseeded each month.

Additionally, imagine you are a clan that loves 30v30, you cant do that in CWL Champs. Easy peasy, manicure your roster so that each month you seed and win Master 1, create a new clan, reseed toMaster 1 again and do it all over. What do you think the rest of the clans in Master 1 would think of that behaviour?

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Originally Posted by Tosti111

Creating a new clan each month effectively means being reseeded each month.

Additionally, imagine you are a clan that loves 30v30, you cant do that in CWL Champs. Easy peasy, manicure your roster so that each month you seed and win Master 1, create a new clan, reseed toMaster 1 again and do it all over. What do you think the rest of the clans in Master 1 would think of that behaviour?

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I suggest limiting CWL to level 2+ clans. Creating dummy clans to take advantage of initial seeding weaknesses should be slightly harder than trivial.

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Originally Posted by George1971

I suggest limiting CWL to level 2+ clans. Creating dummy clans to take advantage of initial seeding weaknesses should be slightly harder than trivial.

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I am betting most of those type of clans already have several dummy clans and wouldnt take them long to get to level 2.
What happens to clans that dont do that but form a clan that is less than+2? What tier should they go into where they will win even easier and how will that tier’s opponents enjoy the experience?

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Originally Posted by Tosti111

I am betting most of those type of clans already have several dummy clans and wouldnt take them long to get to level 2.
What happens to clans that dont do that but form a clan that is less than+2? What tier should they go into where they will win even easier and how will that tier’s opponents enjoy the experience?

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I think it takes < 1 week for 15 accounts to get a new clan to level 2. That is a trivial burden for any real new clan, if they are really in that clan.

> What happens to clans ... less than+2?

If your clan is level 1, you can't enter CWL.

I can see reasonable arguments for the clan level minimum to be higher. The CWL model implicitly presumes that the clan has a long term stable membership. Months, with most of the 15 or 30 being stable in the clan. This is not consistent with a 15 member level 1 clan.

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Originally Posted by Tosti111

Creating a new clan each month effectively means being reseeded each month.

Additionally, imagine you are a clan that loves 30v30, you cant do that in CWL Champs. Easy peasy, manicure your roster so that each month you seed and win Master 1, create a new clan, reseed toMaster 1 again and do it all over. What do you think the rest of the clans in Master 1 would think of that behaviour?

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This can already happen right now so I'm unsure how this is a knock against the idea.

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Originally Posted by Tosti111

To me, this sounds like an engineers playground. Create a new clan each CWL with lower weight defenses and higher weight offense/heroes and let the CWL spin put me in a tier where I can dominate each and every season by reseeding. This would create an artificial ceiling where Those less gifted in engineering are perpetually in limbo as the top spots in the tier are taken by those who have no intent to promote and will reseed into that same tier next season. I know there are many clans out there who have cultivated a “never ever lose” mindset which is great for winstreak chasing but limits their tolerance for losing in CWL. Those clans would LOVE to be able to create a scenario where they never lose a battle day or war or regular war.

I would much prefer a seeding system such as today, where it seeds you a bit higher and you get more medals as you work your way down in tiers rather than being destroyed each and every month lower down with zero chance at promotion as those spots are taken by those who would game the system.

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Actually for engineer clans, they would prefer to be seeded in higher tiers rather than fighting lower for more wins.

As a response to 2222, yes, it is talking about using the actual bases from the previous CWL for the placement for the following CWL. The way I was proposing was that the adjustment for next seasons initial placement could happen at any time after the close of signups, until the start of next seasons signup.

Also, you could still place clans a little high if you wanted to by just placing clans about 10% higher than last seasons average weights, just would be a more accurate way of placement than periodically adjusting weights.

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Originally Posted by MajorJohnson

Actually for engineer clans, they would prefer to be seeded in higher tiers rather than fighting lower for more wins.

As a response to 2222, yes, it is talking about using the actual bases from the previous CWL for the placement for the following CWL. The way I was proposing was that the adjustment for next seasons initial placement could happen at any time after the close of signups, until the start of next seasons signup.

Also, you could still place clans a little high if you wanted to by just placing clans about 10% higher than last seasons average weights, just would be a more accurate way of placement than periodically adjusting weights.

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With all due respect Major, the goal of engineering has rarely been about farming, either for loot or medals or magic items. The goal has been about winning as your own signature testifies. Look how many clans sandbagged or built two clans with lowers in one season to be replaced by uppers the following season for easy wins. Look how many clans intentionally throw CWL matches to ensure they dont promote. look at regular wars where the goal is to win at the spin. Engineers seem to have been quite happy warring against lesser opponents for the past many years, what suddenly changed?

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Originally Posted by Tosti111

With all due respect Major, the goal of engineering has rarely been about farming, either for loot or medals or magic items. The goal has been about winning as your own signature testifies. Look how many clans sandbagged or built two clans with lowers in one season to be replaced by uppers the following season for easy wins. Look how many clans intentionally throw CWL matches to ensure they dont promote. look at regular wars where the goal is to win at the spin. Engineers seem to have been quite happy warring against lesser opponents for the past many years, what suddenly changed?

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Look how many clans intentionally throw CWL matches to ensure they dont promote.

This is a very difficult to ignore sandbagging tactic.

We are in crystal II, and doing poorly (too many of the clan are low TH levels), coming 5/6. It is fairly obvious to the tactically-minded people that we need to throw Day7 to get into Crystal I next season. There is a big difference in level between crystal I and crystal II.

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Originally Posted by Tosti111

With all due respect Major, the goal of engineering has rarely been about farming, either for loot or medals or magic items. The goal has been about winning as your own signature testifies. Look how many clans sandbagged or built two clans with lowers in one season to be replaced by uppers the following season for easy wins. Look how many clans intentionally throw CWL matches to ensure they dont promote. look at regular wars where the goal is to win at the spin. Engineers seem to have been quite happy warring against lesser opponents for the past many years, what suddenly changed?

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Sure, it was when CWL was in it's old reward system, and when it comes to CWL now, it's more about the medals. When we do CWL these days, I am building the lineup around what I expect for the tier (I have options for different tiers). With 8 stars for full rewards, I'd like to fight higher tiers because then I can get more medals.

I fight for streaks, cwl doesn't really matter, it's just farming. In some CWL we may lose them all, or win nearly all in our lower clan because we are one of the lowest weight clans but we use all attacks and choose good targets.

Though for the normal clans being seeded very high is a problem, the noob clans should be seeded where they should be (rather than too high) because they should be able to start by winning half (or more if they are active). When it comes to crystal and up, a clan that should be in crystal 2, may end up in masters 2, which I noticed happened recently.

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Originally Posted by George1971

Look how many clans intentionally throw CWL matches to ensure they dont promote.

This is a very difficult to ignore sandbagging tactic.

We are in crystal II, and doing poorly (too many of the clan are low TH levels), coming 5/6. It is fairly obvious to the tactically-minded people that we need to throw Day7 to get into Crystal I next season. There is a big difference in level between crystal I and crystal II.

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To get into crystal 1 from crystal 2?

I would assume that the change you might see is more middle ground clans?

If a clan wants to sand bag at lower leagues, there isn't really anything you can do about that, due to how the ladder system work.