trying to figure out war weight calculation done by server

My clan today's war setup is like this-

My Clan - TH13 - 1, TH12-1,Th11-7,TH10-9,TH9-5,TH8-4,TH7-3,TH6-3,Th5-2,Th4-1,Th3-2
Opponent Clan - TH13 - 1, TH12-5,Th11-10,TH10-4,TH9-8,TH8-1,TH7-0,TH6-1,Th5-0,Th4-4,Th3-6

How is this match made? Opponents got mostly rushed th12s and th11s which goes even below th9 (th11 only) level with basic troops like ElectroDragon and Miners upgraded to max level specific to Th level. How to beat them? Even if we by chance 3 star those rushed bases, they will still 3 star our bases pretty easily. And then those top Th12s which mostly upgrades GigaTesla, Inferno Tower and x-bows to max level can easily stop us from getting 3 stars on them even with our maxed th11.
Totally out my mind.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

My clan today's war setup is like this-

My Clan - TH13 - 1, TH12-1,Th11-7,TH10-9,TH9-5,TH8-4,TH7-3,TH6-3,Th5-2,Th4-1,Th3-2
Opponent Clan - TH13 - 1, TH12-5,Th11-10,TH10-4,TH9-8,TH8-1,TH7-0,TH6-1,Th5-0,Th4-4,Th3-6

How is this match made? Opponents got mostly rushed th12s and th11s which goes even below th9 (th11 only) level with basic troops like ElectroDragon and Miners upgraded to max level specific to Th level. How to beat them? Even if we by chance 3 star those rushed bases, they will still 3 star our bases pretty easily. And then those top Th12s which mostly upgrades GigaTesla, Inferno Tower and x-bows to max level can easily stop us from getting 3 stars on them even with our maxed th11.
Totally out my mind.

---

Hall levels only tell a small part of the story, but in any event in general I think you've made it very hard on the matchmaker to find a similar clan when you run th13 all the way down to th3. We go down to th8 and are wondering if we will need to bump the th8s up to th9 now that th13 is out.

I thought it was voodoo, chicken bones, and tidal/lunar charts they used and not TH levels??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jwp721

I thought it was voodoo, chicken bones, and tidal/lunar charts they used and not TH levels??

---

They stopped using chicken bones since September update.

War matching works best the less range of THs you have. When we have 15 TH12s...it's a very even matchup. If we split TH12/TH11, it is still pretty event...usually 1 TH difference. Once we start to go with 3 TH or more....it becomes random...and will sometimes get a clan trying to "engineer" by having a max TH8 or TH7. This clan will always have 2-3 TH12s more than we will.

Having TH13-TH3....I don't know how you even find a match...but there you have it. How long did it take to match?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CHANDRIANO

They stopped using chicken bones since September update.

---

We now use cruelty-free whole vegan chickens.

your th11 are they maxed or near maxed?

your heroes, do you have a fairly significant hero level advantage?

We just had an odd matchup too against a clan that's lost once in the last 20 wars where we are overmatched th wise:

us:
0/5/2/6/11
them:
2/5/4/5/7

but we have a large hero advantage... totaling the top seven bases hero levels on both sides (k,q,w,c):

us:
313, 357, 146, 0

them:
162, 224, 82, 4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

My clan today's war setup is like this-

My Clan - TH13 - 1, TH12-1,Th11-7,TH10-9,TH9-5,TH8-4,TH7-3,TH6-3,Th5-2,Th4-1,Th3-2
Opponent Clan - TH13 - 1, TH12-5,Th11-10,TH10-4,TH9-8,TH8-1,TH7-0,TH6-1,Th5-0,Th4-4,Th3-6

How is this match made? Opponents got mostly rushed th12s and th11s which goes even below th9 (th11 only) level with basic troops like ElectroDragon and Miners upgraded to max level specific to Th level. How to beat them? Even if we by chance 3 star those rushed bases, they will still 3 star our bases pretty easily. And then those top Th12s which mostly upgrades GigaTesla, Inferno Tower and x-bows to max level can easily stop us from getting 3 stars on them even with our maxed th11.
Totally out my mind.

---

Both sides appear to have engineered.. You have roster engineered, they have both roster and base engineering..
But the weights still have to match up..
Puma probably isnt far away with a potential answer..

If you can smash their bases, then no harm done.. Just cos they have the bases, dont mean they can use em..
Post your clan tag, so people can take a closer look at the accounts used in the war.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darian[Supercell]

We now use cruelty-free whole vegan chickens.

---

And they range freely in the fields before ending their journey at Costco's Rotisserie Dept.

I don't know how Costco makes their rotisserie chickens so juicy, tasty, and economical. Kudos to the person who came up with the chicken recipe.


---
Lynn
December 19, 2019

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LynnK2015

And they range freely in the fields before ending their journey at Costco's Rotisserie Dept.

I don't know how Costco makes their rotisserie chickens so juicy, tasty, and economical. Kudos to the person who came up with the chicken recipe.


---
Lynn
December 19, 2019

---

underrated comment ngl

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 11111111111

underrated comment ngl

---

TYSM for teaching me a new acronym, ngl

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ngl

---
Lynn
December 19, 2019

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma

your th11 are they maxed or near maxed?

your heroes, do you have a fairly significant hero level advantage?

We just had an odd matchup too against a clan that's lost once in the last 20 wars where we are overmatched th wise:

us:
0/5/2/6/11
them:
2/5/4/5/7

but we have a large hero advantage... totaling the top seven bases hero levels on both sides (k,q,w,c):

us:
313, 357, 146, 0

them:
162, 224, 82, 4

---

3 th11 are maxed, 1 maxed without eagle, 2 semi and 1 rushed at bottom which is actually a dead base no one using (taken to be able to do 40-40).
Th13 is equivalent of maxed th11+, th12 is above th13.
Th10 4 maxed rest in progress but don't have infernos in few of them.
All th9 still progressing.
Th8 & 7 are maxed.
Rest in progress.

Is still difficult to work out without looking at the accounts.. A number is only a number..
Hardest part to work out is why they have 40 accounts in the war, and you only have 38.. If those that you forgot to mention carry much weight, then that would make a huge difference.

EDIT.. Looks like having hall disparity at the top is normal for you..
Maybe it will be best if you stick with the 30v war size you usually use.. Those extra 10 accounts may be altering the effects of using filler bases too much..
Found clan tag in your post history, so can take a look when there is more time maybe..

PS.. A public war log is always better when posting matchmaker problems, because then cocp.it will show the breakdowns of each war.

OK.
I got the point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

OK.
I got the point.

---

Mate.. It isnt a put down.. I roster all the time, and try to measure the effects..
Sometimes, it doesnt take a lot of change, to drastically alter the spin result.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

3 th11 are maxed, 1 maxed without eagle, 2 semi and 1 rushed at bottom which is actually a dead base no one using (taken to be able to do 40-40).
Th13 is equivalent of maxed th11+, th12 is above th13.
Th10 4 maxed rest in progress but don't have infernos in few of them.
All th9 still progressing.
Th8 & 7 are maxed.
Rest in progress.

---

Running maxed 11s, especially multiple maxed 11s are more likely to pull 12s, especially rushed 12s. There simply aren't many maxed 11s out there. Why dont you upgrade these?

after suffling players in last 3 wars I have found war matching is more friendly to clans who have engineered bases. Where people don't add key defences like inferno, xbow and eagle or keep them lower level. They mostly focus on troops and heroes. Like a TH12 with defences of th10 level and but attacking strong with walls upgraded and Giga Tesla to max level. And GT it self is capable of destroying 50% of your army if not taken down early.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

after suffling players in last 3 wars I have found war matching is more friendly to clans who have engineered bases. Where people don't add key defences like inferno, xbow and eagle or keep them lower level. They mostly focus on troops and heroes. Like a TH12 with defences of th10 level and but attacking strong with walls upgraded and Giga Tesla to max level. And GT it self is capable of destroying 50% of your army if not taken down early.

---

This is the problem mate.. Engineering, or rather optimising, will always be possible, because the matchmaker is dealing mainly with numbers..
So anything that is missing wont be counted.. if they draw someone that is stuck with the maxer mindset, then, roster dependant, they can gain significant advantage..

it appears SC try to offset this as much as possible, with some loose hall matching at the top, if the roster allows it..

But there are 3 basic ways to set a roster..
Set up in such a way as to achieve a "fair" match, by keeping it tight, with balanced bases, and using sufficient top end bases in order to stay common, or at least control the spin with the top end weight..
Set out to take advantage, by minimising as much weight as possible, by omitting heavy defence, only upgrading war troops, and creating a roster that closely resembles a rusher/noob clan, by stretching it..
Or put in anything that is green (or to simply make up the numbers).. There is no thought or structure to the roster, simply a bunch of accounts thrown together and hit go.. The classic casual set up that most engi clans feed on..

Unfortunately mate, whether planned or not, your set up is working against you..
You can drop the low halls, or increase the number of top halls, so they actually control the spin result..
1x13 and 1x12 arent going to influence a war size of 40v.. Not with such a spread of halls, and all that weight coming from your 11s will be allowing a mountain of weight that can be used to match up an oppo of any shape..

i hope for your and everyone elses sake they get a grip on the MMA again, as it seems to be losing its way somewhat since the 13 drop.. It didnt help that the jump from 12 to 13 doesnt bring with it a natural weight increase.

Good luck Raidmachine.. Hope it improves for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

after suffling players in last 3 wars I have found war matching is more friendly to clans who have engineered bases. Where people don't add key defences like inferno, xbow and eagle or keep them lower level. They mostly focus on troops and heroes. Like a TH12 with defences of th10 level and but attacking strong with walls upgraded and Giga Tesla to max level. And GT it self is capable of destroying 50% of your army if not taken down early.

---

The clan we just faced had a rushed th12 that had a gold weight higher than their mostly max (might have been full max) th11. I 3 starred it with a th10. The GT weighs way too much for what it is worth on defense in my opinion. It only destroys 50% of your army if you make the mistake of sending 50% of your army to it without a warden.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

The clan we just faced had a rushed th12 that had a gold weight higher than their mostly max (might have been full max) th11. I 3 starred it with a th10. The GT weighs way too much for what it is worth on defense in my opinion. It only destroys 50% of your army if you make the mistake of sending 50% of your army to it without a warden.

---

What if GT with Inferno and Xbows close to it? Will your Th10 3 star it? And where you get warden at Th10?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

What if GT with Inferno and Xbows close to it? Will your Th10 3 star it? And where you get warden at Th10?

---

I didn’t have a warden at th10. I 3 starred it without a warden, despite the fact that none of our th10s could 3 star the th11 that sat below that rushed th12 on the map. The point of my post was that the GT weighs A LOT if we are still relying on gold storage weight and that weight is much more than it is worth in my opinion. I’d rather face one GT than a base full of full upgraded archer towers, etc.

The placement of the defenses doesn’t really impact this point at all, but with this new example, if they are all close together? Freeze becomes a strong spell.

I read this thread more than a week ago and wasn't aware of this non technical explanation posted by OnyxDS until his post was nominated recently by WussyPuss for the Best Post of 2019. Thank you OnyxDS and WussyPuss.
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...1#post12195247

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-Posts-of-2019

---
Lynn
December 31, 2019

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LynnK2015

I read this thread more than a week ago and wasn't aware of this non technical explanation posted by OnyxDS until his post was nominated recently by WussyPuss for the Best Post of 2019. Thank you OnyxDS and WussyPuss.
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...1#post12195247

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-Posts-of-2019

---
Lynn
December 31, 2019

---

Was a great post by Onyx.. One of my favourites of all time..
But it has nothing to do with clan war matching..
It is about how bases are listed on the war map when the weights are the same eg maxed state.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma

Running maxed 11s, especially multiple maxed 11s are more likely to pull 12s, especially rushed 12s. There simply aren't many maxed 11s out there. Why dont you upgrade these?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

The clan we just faced had a rushed th12 that had a gold weight higher than their mostly max (might have been full max) th11. I 3 starred it with a th10. The GT weighs way too much for what it is worth on defense in my opinion. It only destroys 50% of your army if you make the mistake of sending 50% of your army to it without a warden.

---

Mixed messages here. My own opinion is closer to 2222's statement.
Upgrading to TH12, even a level 1 Giga Tesla, adds a hefty amount for defensive weight, comparable to it's value.
That's why being an early TH12, or rushed TH12 used for war (rather than just donations) is not a good place to find yourself.

In the last year or so, we've found TH12 matching to be almost spot on for regular wars, regardless of the progression of any TH11s that may sit below them on the map!


:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skrags

we've found TH12 matching to be almost spot on for regular wars, regardless of the progression of any TH11s that may sit below them on the map!


:)

---

that is exactly why we like curren more precise MM to give us a more precise advantage :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skrags

Mixed messages here. My own opinion is closer to 2222's statement.
Upgrading to TH12, even a level 1 Giga Tesla, adds a hefty amount for defensive weight, comparable to it's value.
That's why being an early TH12, or rushed TH12 used for war (rather than just donations) is not a good place to find yourself.

In the last year or so, we've found TH12 matching to be almost spot on for regular wars, regardless of the progression of any TH11s that may sit below them on the map!


:)

---

It seems that upgrading the Giga Inferno also has a disproprtionate effect on war weights. We have had people jump from postion 7 to position 2 between rounds in CWL when they upgraded that.

The scattershot seems fairly heavy, but the GI seems to have the biggest single effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ajax

It seems that upgrading the Giga Inferno also has a disproprtionate effect on war weights. We have had people jump from postion 7 to position 2 between rounds in CWL when they upgraded that.

The scattershot seems fairly heavy, but the GI seems to have the biggest single effect.

---

Makes sense.. scatter shot may be new, but its still just another defence, albeit a powerful one..
The giga, however, is defending the hall, which in itself is worth a star in war, so should carry premium weight..
Just a pity they didnt make upgrading from lvl5 GT to lvl1 GI weight differentiated too.. then we wouldnt be seeing those 13s sitting below 12s.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ajax

It seems that upgrading the Giga Inferno also has a disproprtionate effect on war weights. We have had people jump from postion 7 to position 2 between rounds in CWL when they upgraded that.

The scattershot seems fairly heavy, but the GI seems to have the biggest single effect.

---

I haven't tried to sit down and calculate it but I've seen more difference with the SS I think. For example in our current war we have a th13 and th12 both sitting at 119k gold weight. However, my own base that was a max th12 and has been upgrading steadily since th13 dropped is at 122k while a player that rushed into th13 but built two SSs is at 124k (and just got 3 starred).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

I haven't tried to sit down and calculate it but I've seen more difference with the SS I think. For example in our current war we have a th13 and th12 both sitting at 119k gold weight. However, my own base that was a max th12 and has been upgrading steadily since th13 dropped is at 122k while a player that rushed into th13 but built two SSs is at 124k (and just got 3 starred).

---

what lvl is the giga inferno at your 122k and the 124k bases, I find Scattershot add only 1K each, but it still lvl1, my 119 near max th12 now is 123K with 2 scattershot lvl1 with lvl1 giga, lvl12 RC, only 2 xbow upgraded

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

Makes sense.. scatter shot may be new, but its still just another defence, albeit a powerful one..
The giga, however, is defending the hall, which in itself is worth a star in war, so should carry premium weight..
Just a pity they didnt make upgrading from lvl5 GT to lvl1 GI weight differentiated too.. then we wouldnt be seeing those 13s sitting below 12s.

---

I think you put a too low value on scattershot mate, even a lvl1 scattershot kill a max lvl5 bowler in one shot and they can not hide behind a tank. Scattershot is not just another defense, many high lvl attackers already recognized the dead of 2 of th12 most powerful attack at th13 lavaloon and pekka smash, because both rely on tanks for the loons and bowler. Yeti is replacing bowler at pekka smash attack, because bowler will dead before they reach the core

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samratulangi

I think you put a too low value on scattershot mate, even a lvl1 scattershot kill a max lvl5 bowler in one shot and they can not hide behind a tank. Scattershot is not just another defense, many high lvl attackers already recognized the dead of 2 of th12 most powerful attack at th13 lavaloon and pekka smash, because both rely on tanks for the loons and bowler. Yeti is replacing bowler at pekka smash attack, because bowler will dead before they reach the core

---

Am not trying to take anything away from its effect..
If it has negated two of the previous METa attacks, its proving to be a game changer..

Any splash will weigh heavy tho.. Maybe its also weighted as the "big gun" for 13.. seems quite likely..
But it is still only part of the defensive set up..
A star doesnt flash up soon as a scattershot goes down..
It does give up a star when the giga fails to hold out tho..

Also, so far as a weight buffer between halls, nobody needs drop the scatter shot..
They do, however, need to upgrade the hall to reach 13..
So which would be the most effective way of controlling weight distinction between 12 and 13

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

Am not trying to take anything away from its effect..
If it has negated two of the previous METa attacks, its proving to be a game changer..

Any splash will weigh heavy tho.. Maybe its also weighted as the "big gun" for 13.. seems quite likely..
But it is still only part of the defensive set up..
A star doesnt flash up soon as a scattershot goes down..
It does give up a star when the giga fails to hold out tho..

Also, so far as a weight buffer between halls, nobody needs drop the scatter shot..
They do, however, need to upgrade the hall to reach 13..
So which would be the most effective way of controlling weight distinction between 12 and 13

---

I don't think SC have ever worked on the principle that there necesarily should be a weight buffer between town halls.

And the GI level 1 isn't much more powerfult than GT level 5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ajax

I don't think SC have ever worked on the principle that there necesarily should be a weight buffer between town halls.

And the GI level 1 isn't much more powerfult than GT level 5.

---

I think you missed the point Ajax. It isnt the GI that is the concern, it is the extra offense you get at TH13 without a large enough weight addition to compensate. There is a large difference between a TH12 and a TH13 with only the GI but all offense upgraded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samratulangi

what lvl is the giga inferno at your 122k and the 124k bases, I find Scattershot add only 1K each, but it still lvl1, my 119 near max th12 now is 123K with 2 scattershot lvl1 with lvl1 giga, lvl12 RC, only 2 xbow upgraded

---

Both level 2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tosti111

I think you missed the point Ajax. It isnt the GI that is the concern, it is the extra offense you get at TH13 without a large enough weight addition to compensate. There is a large difference between a TH12 and a TH13 with only the GI but all offense upgraded.

---

Agreed but offense also has weight and that is where it should be addressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

Both level 2.



Agreed but offense also has weight and that is where it should be addressed.

---

There have been at least 11 THs where SC did not adequately address offensive weight. It may be the best place to address it but given their track record, I am not holding my breath.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

Agreed but offense also has weight and that is where it should be addressed.

---

I would tend to agree mate..
But we have been dealing with/discussing engineering accounts for some time now..

To engineer out any weight gain.. Or rather, to carry minimal weight, would simply be to only upgrade what troops you need..
The weight gain is usually biggest with the drop, then tends to be more minimal with added levels..
Camp space, spells, lab, maybe even storage space, which is required in order to gain access to upgrades, can all be used in order to offset any advantage gained..

But I would far rather there were something I could visibly measure, that would differentiate between halls..
And gold weight/recommended target is the closest we get.. As to whether it actually means anything, I truly dont know..
But its all we/I have, and I feel uneasy that seeing 13s sitting below 12s on the war map on a regular basis now..
It was quite rare for a 12 below an 11.

Ajax, I would agree that SC havent stated that they try to differentiate between halls..
I also have noted that the GI level 1 is somewhat on comparison to a GT level 5, when it comes to power..
But, the GI is entry to 13, and all the other goodies on offer, as Tosti says.
Also, the way the MMA seems to have been working.. More so before the 13 drop.. It seems to be attempting to match top halls in the draw, whether that be at the top, or an extra one tucked away further down the roster..
My thought is when that is happening, it is a natural effect of a weighting structure that would automatically differentiate halls..

I do have my doubts, and maybe am way wide of the mark.. Maybe I also think too much, or not enough too

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tosti111

I think you missed the point Ajax. It isnt the GI that is the concern, it is the extra offense you get at TH13 without a large enough weight addition to compensate. There is a large difference between a TH12 and a TH13 with only the GI but all offense upgraded.

---

No, I didn't miss the point.

The point I was responding to was suggesting there should be a weight buffer between TH12 and TH13- i.e. that just upgrading the TH without anything else should still add noticeably to the weight.

There is one at TH11 to TH12, because the GT weighs quite a lot, and is there from the start. There isn't at TH12-13 because the difference between level 5 GT and level 1 GI isn't much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tosti111

There have been at least 11 THs where SC did not adequately address offensive weight. It may be the best place to address it but given their track record, I am not holding my breath.

---

I agree again, but again if we are throwing out suggestions of how to deal with the extra offensive power of th13 it isn't my suggestion that they add artificial weight to a hall upgrade that makes almost no difference on defense. They should address it with weight on offense, including heroes (and they do, whether they do enough or not I'm not sure, I haven't seen any problems with th13s being "engineered" other than I think the scattershot weighs too much).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ajax

No, I didn't miss the point.

The point I was responding to was suggesting there should be a weight buffer between TH12 and TH13- i.e. that just upgrading the TH without anything else should still add noticeably to the weight.

There is one at TH11 to TH12, because the GT weighs quite a lot, and is there from the start. There isn't at TH12-13 because the difference between level 5 GT and level 1 GI isn't much.

---

I understand your assessment and although true, my concern is that the best regular war matching that we have ever had is because of the weight that SC gave the TH itself at TH12. SC has a poor record of offensive matching/weighting and although the TH weight itself may not have been intended to bridge that gap, it had that unexpected side effect. Given that we are already seeing TH13s with all the offensive bells and whistles sitting down in TH12 land, IMO SC should either weight the TH heavier or weight offense more heavily (given their track record, I dont think they will).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tosti111

I understand your assessment and although true, my concern is that the best regular war matching that we have ever had is because of the weight that SC gave the TH itself at TH12. SC has a poor record of offensive matching/weighting and although the TH weight itself may not have been intended to bridge that gap, it had that unexpected side effect. Given that we are already seeing TH13s with all the offensive bells and whistles sitting down in TH12 land, IMO SC should either weight the TH heavier or weight offense more heavily (given their track record, I dont think they will).

---

It is very difficult to actually tell how much weight they give to offence, because it isn't visible, and map placement is purely based on defensive weight.

If a TH13 is "sitting down in TH12 land" that is because its defence is all that counts for where it sits. The offence will also have been taken into account in the overall match, we just don't know how strongly.

And things are always likely to be skewed in the early days of a new TH, which this still is.

I kinow that over the period since TH12 was introduced, war matching has been about the best it has ever been, but I'm not sure just how much that had to do with the TH weight, and how much was influenced by other factors introduced in the matchmaking since then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ajax

It is very difficult to actually tell how much weight they give to offence, because it isn't visible, and map placement is purely based on defensive weight.

If a TH13 is "sitting down in TH12 land" that is because its defence is all that counts for where it sits. The offence will also have been taken into account in the overall match, we just don't know how strongly.

And things are always likely to be skewed in the early days of a new TH, which this still is.

I kinow that over the period since TH12 was introduced, war matching has been about the best it has ever been, but I'm not sure just how much that had to do with the TH weight, and how much was influenced by other factors introduced in the matchmaking since then.

---

Absolutely fair statements Ajax. It is early days of TH13 but what I am starting to see in my matches has all the look and smell of the bad old days, hopefully if that turns out to be the case, SC will take appropriate offense weight changes. I have little faith however that they will. Time will tell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tosti111

I understand your assessment and although true, my concern is that the best regular war matching that we have ever had is because of the weight that SC gave the TH itself at TH12. SC has a poor record of offensive matching/weighting and although the TH weight itself may not have been intended to bridge that gap, it had that unexpected side effect. Given that we are already seeing TH13s with all the offensive bells and whistles sitting down in TH12 land, IMO SC should either weight the TH heavier or weight offense more heavily (given their track record, I dont think they will).

---

Why refer to where the th13 is sitting on the map? That doesn't account for the offensive weight we don't see and doesn't account for the factor of hall matching that it appears they use at the top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ajax

It is very difficult to actually tell how much weight they give to offence, because it isn't visible, and map placement is purely based on defensive weight.

If a TH13 is "sitting down in TH12 land" that is because its defence is all that counts for where it sits. The offence will also have been taken into account in the overall match, we just don't know how strongly.

And things are always likely to be skewed in the early days of a new TH, which this still is.

I kinow that over the period since TH12 was introduced, war matching has been about the best it has ever been, but I'm not sure just how much that had to do with the TH weight, and how much was influenced by other factors introduced in the matchmaking since then.

---

Great post Ajax.. Covers all the bases that makes me think I may be just looking at things with a newbies eyes..
Appearance can indeed be misleading, and as you said, the map is defence only.
The biggest thing is how new the hall is, so the "hidden" factor.. The offence could be anywhere..
I war much lighter, so am unaffected by the transition, and matching is still fine, suggesting the MMA hasnt undergone any major surgery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

Why refer to where the th13 is sitting on the map? That doesn't account for the offensive weight we don't see and doesn't account for the factor of hall matching that it appears they use at the top.

---

Yeah mate.. The top hall matching is another factor.. Once the dust settles on the new hall, then there will be a better chance of taking a closer look at any effect.
Hopefully, the scattershot, combined with bigger troops/heroes will keep things in balance (with regard to 12v13 matching)..

As an aside (sort of), it will be interesting to see how they balance things, if the scattershot already started killing off the current TH12 combo's..
13 may have started life with an offensive edge, but things may well change dramatically once defensive levels catch up.. More so if they decide to hit the yeti with a nerf (havent unlocked them yet, simply been reading on General)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tosti111

Absolutely fair statements Ajax. It is early days of TH13 but what I am starting to see in my matches has all the look and smell of the bad old days, hopefully if that turns out to be the case, SC will take appropriate offense weight changes. I have little faith however that they will. Time will tell.

---

since th12 update, most engineers that know what to do already focusing more on offense weight management rather then defense, I believe current MM put more weight on the offense then def, problem is u dont see it unless u war with a big optimized roster

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

Great post Ajax.. Covers all the bases that makes me think I may be just looking at things with a newbies eyes..
Appearance can indeed be misleading, and as you said, the map is defence only.
The biggest thing is how new the hall is, so the "hidden" factor.. The offence could be anywhere..
I war much lighter, so am unaffected by the transition, and matching is still fine, suggesting the MMA hasnt undergone any major surgery.




Yeah mate.. The top hall matching is another factor.. Once the dust settles on the new hall, then there will be a better chance of taking a closer look at any effect.
Hopefully, the scattershot, combined with bigger troops/heroes will keep things in balance (with regard to 12v13 matching)..

As an aside (sort of), it will be interesting to see how they balance things, if the scattershot already started killing off the current TH12 combo's..
13 may have started life with an offensive edge, but things may well change dramatically once defensive levels catch up.. More so if they decide to hit the yeti with a nerf (havent unlocked them yet, simply been reading on General)

---

If SC nerfed Yeti, we may only see Hog all day long, or hybrid (hog Miner) at high lvl competition, since Air is very weak at th13, and no other viable ground strat(Valk, Bowler, Witch, it is all dead)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samratulangi

since th12 update, most engineers that know what to do already focusing more on offense weight management rather then defense, I believe current MM put more weight on the offense then def, problem is u dont see it unless u war with a big optimized roster

---

I think that most good engineers have always focused on offensive weight management...to a degree! I'm interested in your opinion that current MM puts more weight on offence than defence. Is this across all TH levels or just TH11 and below?

If , and it's a big IF, this was the case, it will be interesting to see if selective TH13 offence upgrading becomes effective this year.
Regardless, if the optimised determined engineers are successful (as they always have been), then I have no real issue with this.
The one thing we don't want for the game, is a return to the post March 2016 casual engineering 'copy and paste' debacle!

:thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skrags

I think that most good engineers have always focused on offensive weight management...to a degree! I'm interested in your opinion that current MM puts more weight on offence than defence. Is this across all TH levels or just TH11 and below?

If , and it's a big IF, this was the case, it will be interesting to see if selective TH13 offence upgrading becomes effective this year.
Regardless, if the optimised determined engineers are successful (as they always have been), then I have no real issue with this.
The one thing we don't want for the game, is a return to the post March 2016 casual engineering 'copy and paste' debacle!

:thumbsup:

---

Totally agree with this Skrags.. That update was what brought me to forums in the first place.. And that is my concern.. It is looking quite likely that we could see much more mileage with optimised offence at 13, than we could at 12..

And the reason it wasnt so dominant at 12 IMO, is because of that heavily weighted hall..
This time around, they have simply done a cross over from Tesla to Inferno, with no actual weight increase, so it opens up a whole level of offensive upgrades without affecting defence, except for heroes.

As Ajax rightly said, they have never, so far as we know, directly focused on weighting hall levels specifically..
And as 2222 rightly says, offensive power should be addressed with offensive weight..
Yet there seems to be something in place that usually matches rosters with top hall parity..
So I guess its all down to the balancing..

Over to you SC

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skrags

I think that most good engineers have always focused on offensive weight management...to a degree! I'm interested in your opinion that current MM puts more weight on offence than defence. Is this across all TH levels or just TH11 and below?

If , and it's a big IF, this was the case, it will be interesting to see if selective TH13 offence upgrading becomes effective this year.
Regardless, if the optimised determined engineers are successful (as they always have been), then I have no real issue with this.
The one thing we don't want for the game, is a return to the post March 2016 casual engineering 'copy and paste' debacle!

:thumbsup:

---

Of course it happen to all TH lvl, at TH12 my optimized bases almost never match high lvl TH12

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

Totally agree with this Skrags.. That update was what brought me to forums in the first place.. And that is my concern.. It is looking quite likely that we could see much more mileage with optimised offence at 13, than we could at 12..

And the reason it wasnt so dominant at 12 IMO, is because of that heavily weighted hall..
This time around, they have simply done a cross over from Tesla to Inferno, with no actual weight increase, so it opens up a whole level of offensive upgrades without affecting defence, except for heroes.

As Ajax rightly said, they have never, so far as we know, directly focused on weighting hall levels specifically..
And as 2222 rightly says, offensive power should be addressed with offensive weight..
Yet there seems to be something in place that usually matches rosters with top hall parity..
So I guess its all down to the balancing..

Over to you SC

---

Josh as long as Top TH parity check is there, there will be no different at TH13 or TH12, because an optimized th13 offense with all TH13 def is even better to defend while still drawing lower TH13, the same thing as TH12, actually I dont hold any def upgrade at TH12, why should we, as offense is weighted heavier now. That is why all our builders are busy upgrading def, walls and heroes at all my TH12 bases, and we are getting landslide advantage both in offense and def, from top to bottom, so will be at TH13.

A TH .5 concept like before 9.5 or 10.5 has been dead since 2017, and if u do it now, u will face similarly clan with high offense and very high chance of getting perfect draw, TH13 with TH12 def but TH13 offense? just wait to be perfected.

The fact that lvl1 GI has no weight gain dont change anything in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samratulangi

Josh as long as Top TH parity check is there, there will be no different at TH13 or TH12, because an optimized th13 offense with all TH13 def is even better to defend while still drawing lower TH13, the same thing as TH12, actually I dont hold any def upgrade at TH12, why should we, as offense is weighted heavier now. That is why all our builders are busy upgrading def, walls and heroes at all my TH12 bases, and we are getting landslide advantage both in offense and def, from top to bottom, so will be at TH13.

A TH .5 concept like before 9.5 or 10.5 has been dead since 2017, and if u do it now, u will face similarly clan with high offense and very high chance of getting perfect draw, TH13 with TH12 def but TH13 offense? just wait to be perfected.

The fact that lvl1 GI has no weight gain dont change anything in my opinion.

---

yeah mate.. Good post overall.. And the last sentence (bolded) seems to be the general consensus..
Time will tell, and sure hope you are right (which I would expect coming from you)..

You and Major may get lots of advantage with the current MMA, but most wont.. Nor can they, since you are likely balancing from way back.. Something that cant easily be done from scratch.. Those rushed bases we see for cwl, cant really be shaped into anything you guys do well..

But my niggling concern is simply if they make it a shoot em up, for those that dont do serious war, as that will affect any casual clan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

You and Major may get lots of advantage with the current MMA, but most wont.. Nor can they, since you are likely balancing from way back.. Something that cant easily be done from scratch.. Those rushed bases we see for cwl, cant really be shaped into anything you guys do well..

---

Just FYI, we developed at least 10 new bases after th12 update with build all policy, these are3 th12s, 2 th11s, and 7 th10s, and all are very effective right now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samratulangi

Of course it happen to all TH lvl, at TH12 my optimized bases almost never match high lvl TH12



Josh as long as Top TH parity check is there, there will be no different at TH13 or TH12, because an optimized th13 offense with all TH13 def is even better to defend while still drawing lower TH13, the same thing as TH12, actually I dont hold any def upgrade at TH12, why should we, as offense is weighted heavier now.
A TH .5 concept like before 9.5 or 10.5 has been dead since 2017, and if u do it now, u will face similarly clan with high offense and very high chance of getting perfect draw, TH13 with TH12 def but TH13 offense? just wait to be perfected.

.

---

Ok, that's fine. I have no objective information to add, or possibly argue with, regarding your assumption about a change in offensive weight. I'm not aware of any deviations, but in all honesty I don't really follow these things anymore since the TH12 update.

The traditional X.5 progression path has indeed been thwarted since mid 2017...agreed, although, as we both know, the communities definition of X.5 has moved this way and that over the years, depending upon your individual stance! But, in essence..agreed! :thumbsup:

As I suggested earlier, I think there possibly could be some potential offensive weight optimising at TH13 in particular, as you seem to be enjoying, but as I also previously stated, such a progression of engineering, will be dominated by the very determined (such as yourself), and not the casual engineers, as these bases are just not that easy to mass produce, unlike the single cannon TH11s that poisoned the game back in 2016/2017!

Thanks!:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skrags

I think that most good engineers have always focused on offensive weight management...to a degree! I'm interested in your opinion that current MM puts more weight on offence than defence. Is this across all TH levels or just TH11 and below?

If , and it's a big IF, this was the case, it will be interesting to see if selective TH13 offence upgrading becomes effective this year.
Regardless, if the optimised determined engineers are successful (as they always have been), then I have no real issue with this.
The one thing we don't want for the game, is a return to the post March 2016 casual engineering 'copy and paste' debacle!

:thumbsup:

---

Supercell made offense weigh more than defense in order to try to counter the copy paste engineers. I have a near max 12 with white walls, TH8 barch and 1 spell and have on occasion used it as our top anchor. Majority are still stuck in the old ways of copy paste engineering, one CWL I took it to forum fleapit and they freaked out and didn't understand why someone would have the lowest offense possible.

SC does make changes to weights and checks for MM fairly regularly server side, I believe last change was around the onset of TH13. It is a bit easier to understand how weights are handled and when it changes with a large optimised roster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MajorJohnson

SC does make changes to weights and checks for MM fairly regularly server side, I believe last change was around the onset of TH13. It is a bit easier to understand how weights are handled and when it changes with a large optimised roster.

---

Exactly, a normal maxer clan will see no difference on MM weighting because most of their bases will have relatively constant def and off weight with slow increase, and somewhat near balanced, so any change will not be visible to them, except they upgrade to new th, but for us optimizer, we clearly see smaller detail in off weight since we have very specific off weight target for every bases in our roster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MajorJohnson

Supercell made offense weigh more than defense in order to try to counter the copy paste engineers. I have a near max 12 with white walls, TH8 barch and 1 spell and have on occasion used it as our top anchor. Majority are still stuck in the old ways of copy paste engineering, one CWL I took it to forum fleapit and they freaked out and didn't understand why someone would have the lowest offense possible.

SC does make changes to weights and checks for MM fairly regularly server side, I believe last change was around the onset of TH13. It is a bit easier to understand how weights are handled and when it changes with a large optimised roster.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samratulangi

Exactly, a normal maxer clan will see no difference on MM weighting because most of their bases will have relatively constant def and off weight with slow increase, and somewhat near balanced, so any change will not be visible to them, except they upgrade to new th, but for us optimizer, we clearly see smaller detail in off weight since we have very specific off weight target for every bases in our roster.

---

Ok. Interesting. I have no reason, or information, to doubt your findings at all.:thumbsup:
Certainly the deadly clan from South Korea (WS - 360) seem to be running some weird Giant/Wiz/Heal TH9s with lvl 1 BKs (No Hogs,Drags,AQ etc) and accumulating well over 1000 War stars and huge Win Streak with such a strategy.

Defensively though, they are running lvl 4 AD's, Lvl 8 Cannon/Archer Towers, Lvl 1 Mortars, No Xbows obviously.

Certainly not a high defence, low offence engineering strat, but hey...it's obviously working for them!:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skrags

Ok. Interesting. I have no reason, or information, to doubt your findings at all.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skrags

:thumbsup:

Certainly the deadly clan from South Korea (WS - 360) seem to be running some weird Giant/Wiz/Heal TH9s with lvl 1 BKs (No Hogs,Drags,AQ etc) and accumulating well over 1000 War stars and huge Win Streak with such a strategy.

Defensively though, they are running lvl 4 AD's, Lvl 8 Cannon/Archer Towers, Lvl 1 Mortars, No Xbows obviously.

Certainly not a high defence, low offence engineering strat, but hey...it's obviously working for them!

:)

---

There are many clans within the top winstreaks that are self match clans which I have been battling for quite some time to be addressed.

All you need to look for is to looks on cocp.it and see that there are many that are increasing in win streak but there is no wars to be found "because they haven't fought a war in a while", this is because when they delete the new clan, it does not register.

Otherwise we would be in the top 10 clans.

Due to forum rules, it is very hard to discuss the issue in detail and will often be closed or moved to a section that SC staff do not frequent and be drowned out.

I have often wondered what actually are the strongest clans in the game currently based on legitimacy, strength, and win streak.

Of active win streak gainers, Sam would be #1, we would be #2 in quality, but #3 in active legit wars in my opinion.

Why I put pressure on rushing is because 75% of clans we faced got rushed th11 and 12. which were hard to 1* by my th9s. So we loose before the war actually started. So my top players give up straight and we have to switch to plan B where we skip top bases (equal to our th9s) and then try and get max possible stars. But that will not give us victory in anycase.
Now if we also had rushed THs like them, than we would have given similar level of fight. We may have lost but chances are where we could have more chances of winning.
We personally don't like to rush but we face such player that makes us think why we are not doing like them.
Even in regualr war we still find TH11 seating at 25+ in 30-30 war. They are old players who had engineered their base right from begining (before th12 came out). They are such that we may have to either use TH9 or 10 to 3 star their base and they can easily take down out maxed TH10s.
So in all war engineering is hurting in CWL and regular war both cases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

.
So in all war engineering is hurting in CWL and regular war both cases.

---

No it isn't. Engineerjng is NEVER helpful in CWL. Rushing certainly can be, but rushing is not engineering.

In regular war, for most clans, the matchmaking tends to match engineers to engineers nowadays. Not always of course, you still get occasional bad mismatches. But they are occasional now, while they used to be the norm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

Why I put pressure on rushing is because 75% of clans we faced got rushed th11 and 12. which were hard to 1* by my th9s. So we loose before the war actually started. So my top players give up straight and we have to switch to plan B where we skip top bases (equal to our th9s) and then try and get max possible stars. But that will not give us victory in anycase.
Now if we also had rushed THs like them, than we would have given similar level of fight. We may have lost but chances are where we could have more chances of winning.
We personally don't like to rush but we face such player that makes us think why we are not doing like them.
Even in regualr war we still find TH11 seating at 25+ in 30-30 war. They are old players who had engineered their base right from begining (before th12 came out). They are such that we may have to either use TH9 or 10 to 3 star their base and they can easily take down out maxed TH10s.
So in all war engineering is hurting in CWL and regular war both cases.

---

In cwl, you take what you got.. And you face what they got.. Random matching from same tier.. Easy to understand..

For regular war, however, its totally different..

There appears to be a couple of main things going on..
They use the combined weight of the full roster.. Both offence and defence..
They also seem to try and give each side the same, or similar number of top end halls..

So far as the war weight goes, that is easy to get your head around.. X+Y=Z..
The hall matching may not necessarily be at the top eg.. If you have 4x th11s, they may carry 3 at the top and one near the bottom..

Added to this, the MMA tries to balance the match as well as possible eg If you carry bigger heroes, it may add some extra power to the oppo in order to compensate. (Dont mean it will actually give anyone extra weight/power they dont carry. I mean they will potentially allow an oppo with the extras already in place)

It will also find it easier to fill in the blanks if you stretch your roster, since it will have a bigger spread to play with..
This is the reason a stretched roster will often draw a rusher clan, or engineers.
The way to avoid engineering, is low spread and balanced halls.

Lets keep in mind, SC are doing very little to influence classic war matches..
They simply put out an algorithm that crunches whatever you choose as a roster, and matches it to something that comes in with the same score.. Plus a few check boxes to try and distinguish play type/ roster build as much as possible..
Its the players/ clans themselves, as a whole, that dictates whether a roster is common or not, and how easy it will be to get a good "fair" match..
If you are getting bad match ups with this algo, then you need to be changing your break down.
If you get it right, you can be fairly confident of the war spin before hitting go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

The way to avoid engineering, is low spread and balanced halls.

---

Agree for most part, but now proper engineers including ourselves also using 3-4 hall spread and balance build, so?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by samratulangi

Agree for most part, but now proper engineers including ourselves also using 3-4 hall spread and balance build, so?

---

So I must free up some time for that chat mate.. been promising myself since forever now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

So I must free up some time for that chat mate.. been promising myself since forever now.

---

Always welcome mate

Really interested in this conversation, as we’ve been getting some right weird match-ups since launch of TH13 :( I must confess I don’t get into the nitty gritty details of the war weight, but just trust that if you upgrade evenly you should be bringing in fair matches!

We have a handful of rushed/engineered bases in our clan, but they don’t war generally and are mostly for donating purposes. We were a small clan and needed troop/siege donators, so I have an purely offence only TH11 for the troops and a rushed TH13 for the sieges (both of which over time I am now in the process of converting). If they do get included, usually when I need a top up on loot as haven’t been able to raid all my accounts, then I expect to get engineered/rushed line ups in the match up. The rest of our clan accounts are standard bases and these are what I include in 98% of the wars. We have TH13 through to TH6 and anyone who is green gets in war ... as I believe should be the case!! A clan is a family and by that definition all who want to should be able to play, after all war is a big part of the game. We’ve had to exclude THs lower than TH10 from CWL in order to compete, I am blowed if I’m going to say they can’t do classic war as well! With this in mind, our current war line up is below. We would normally have more up top but our big lads are upgrading heroes following end of season/CWL); we generally have have two or three other TH12s and a few more TH9s (so I realise it’s a bit of an awkward line up):

Us: 1 TH12, 7 TH11s, 8 TH10s, 4 TH9s, 2 TH8s, 2 TH7s, 1 TH6
Them: 3 TH13s, 2 TH12s, 6 TH11s, 5 TH10s, 5 TH9s, 2 TH8s, 1 TH7, 1 TH6

We are standard bases, in various stages of upgrade, some brand new upgrades, some in the middle, some near or maxed. Our TH12 is near max, only 25 wall segments to go. They are an engineered clan :rolleyes:

How is this match up fair? :straightface:

I did some reading on the match-ups because of what’s been happening and saw somewhere that if you include a TH6 in your line up, you are automatically classified as a engineered clan and will pull engineered opponents, do you guys know if this is this true?

We also had a feeling that by including a near max TH12 we were likely to pull a TH13 which we were prepared to live with ... our TH12 is a capable chap and they would have to beat him and his base also ... but three of them? Plus 2 TH12s? Then 6 TH11s? Come on!!

I’m going to try with just the TH7s next war match and see what that does, although it sticks in my craw! Without benching people and saying they can’t play, not sure what to do :confused: They will beat us, not by skill, but by purely overpowering us, which is not the point really is it! For instance, my TH11 base has withstood their initial attacks but they will just set one of the TH13s on it and it will be crushed :unsure:

Trying not to be grumpy about it, as I am thinking that things will even themselves out eventually as our TH13s get more established and back in the game but would be interested on your views re the TH6 and that line up :blush:

Do you have information on hero, troop levels, and relative gold weights of the TH10+ in this war?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Really interested in this conversation, as we’ve been getting some right weird match-ups since launch of TH13 :( I must confess I don’t get into the nitty gritty details of the war weight, but just trust that if you upgrade evenly you should be bringing in fair matches!

We have a handful of rushed/engineered bases in our clan, but they don’t war generally and are mostly for donating purposes. We were a small clan and needed troop/siege donators, so I have an purely offence only TH11 for the troops and a rushed TH13 for the sieges (both of which over time I am now in the process of converting). If they do get included, usually when I need a top up on loot as haven’t been able to raid all my accounts, then I expect to get engineered/rushed line ups in the match up. The rest of our clan accounts are standard bases and these are what I include in 98% of the wars. We have TH13 through to TH6 and anyone who is green gets in war ... as I believe should be the case!! A clan is a family and by that definition all who want to should be able to play, after all war is a big part of the game. We’ve had to exclude THs lower than TH10 from CWL in order to compete, I am blowed if I’m going to say they can’t do classic war as well! With this in mind, our current war line up is below. We would normally have more up top but our big lads are upgrading heroes following end of season/CWL); we generally have have two or three other TH12s and a few more TH9s (so I realise it’s a bit of an awkward line up):

Us: 1 TH12, 7 TH11s, 8 TH10s, 4 TH9s, 2 TH8s, 2 TH7s, 1 TH6
Them: 3 TH13s, 2 TH12s, 6 TH11s, 5 TH10s, 5 TH9s, 2 TH8s, 1 TH7, 1 TH6

We are standard bases, in various stages of upgrade, some brand new upgrades, some in the middle, some near or maxed. Our TH12 is near max, only 25 wall segments to go. They are an engineered clan :rolleyes:

How is this match up fair? :straightface:

I did some reading on the match-ups because of what’s been happening and saw somewhere that if you include a TH6 in your line up, you are automatically classified as a engineered clan and will pull engineered opponents, do you guys know if this is this true?

We also had a feeling that by including a near max TH12 we were likely to pull a TH13 which we were prepared to live with ... our TH12 is a capable chap and they would have to beat him and his base also ... but three of them? Plus 2 TH12s? Then 6 TH11s? Come on!!

I’m going to try with just the TH7s next war match and see what that does, although it sticks in my craw! Without benching people and saying they can’t play, not sure what to do :confused: They will beat us, not by skill, but by purely overpowering us, which is not the point really is it! For instance, my TH11 base has withstood their initial attacks but they will just set one of the TH13s on it and it will be crushed :unsure:

Trying not to be grumpy about it, as I am thinking that things will even themselves out eventually as our TH13s get more established and back in the game but would be interested on your views re the TH6 and that line up :blush:

---

Just telling us hall levels doesn't say much but I'd be curious to see those actual accounts. Your wide spread of halls is likely a factor, but there probably is some engineering going on there in your clan that is causing such a match. It has been years since my clan has seen anything like that and we war th13-8. We almost always have the same number of top halls (although we do smaller wars so that matters also).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

Just telling us hall levels doesn't say much but I'd be curious to see those actual accounts. Your wide spread of halls is likely a factor, but there probably is some engineering going on there in your clan that is causing such a match. It has been years since my clan has seen anything like that and we war th13-8. We almost always have the same number of top halls (although we do smaller wars so that matters also).

---

Yeah this seems crazy out of balance at a hall level, but I know there are plenty of TH12s out there that can be easily wiped out by TH9/10s (encountered several this past CWL) so I don't want to rush to judgement. If you split it at TH10, both sides have equal TH10+. Below that it looks very even...so I wonder if Belinio's clan has much heavier 10s than the opponent.

Here's his cocp.it link: https://cocp.it/clan/20GQJ8CC0

I did note they have an 11 that sits below 9s, but that appears to be the only sandbagged base they have (barring .5s which I can't see easily on cocp.it).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

Just telling us hall levels doesn't say much but I'd be curious to see those actual accounts. Your wide spread of halls is likely a factor, but there probably is some engineering going on there in your clan that is causing such a match. It has been years since my clan has seen anything like that and we war th13-8. We almost always have the same number of top halls (although we do smaller wars so that matters also).

---

Hi you’re more than welcome to come have a look, not sure how I’d share the information on all of them with you? Is there an easy way to extract it? There is no deliberate “engineering” in any of them ... but I guess it depends what you’re using as a definition for engineering? Because any decision you make results in engineering an outcome of some sort ... so if I decide to do all my hidden traps first and get my favourite army upgraded first, I suppose that I’ve decided to engineer that outcome :rolleyes: I also like to do ADs first at certain TH levels because you get spanked by air etc so in effect that could also be that I’ve engineered the outcome that a I’m defended against air attacks. But if you take that view, any decision you make can be classed as engineering, per se :saywhat: I took engineering in terms of this game to mean concentrating on offence to the exclusion of defence? But if you’re upgrading your defences as well as your offence it should result in standard matches? Maybe I’m being naive lol? If you have the time and would be willing to take a quick look and say “it’s that one and that one, because of x,y,z” I’d be very grateful and then I know in future :blush:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma

Yeah this seems crazy out of balance at a hall level, but I know there are plenty of TH12s out there that can be easily wiped out by TH9/10s (encountered several this past CWL) so I don't want to rush to judgement. If you split it at TH10, both sides have equal TH10+. Below that it looks very even...so I wonder if Belinio's clan has much heavier 10s than the opponent.

Here's his cocp.it link: https://cocp.it/clan/20GQJ8CC0

I did note they have an 11 that sits below 9s, but that appears to be the only sandbagged base they have (barring .5s which I can't see easily on cocp.it).

---

They are rubbish bases, ours are standard so yes our TH10s are heavier than theirs :blush: So we can beat their bases, our TH12 got 93% on their top TH13 ... but it’s more why we’ve pulled an engineered clan in the first place (and by engineered I mean their bases are both engineered or rushed). We want to face like for like bases, and yes realise that sometimes there is an uneven split top to bottom based on strength of base but not like this. That’s what I’m looking to avoid in future, I’m thinking it’s my TH6 that may be causing the problems given what I’ve read. But I don’t know enough about the background workings of the game to pinpoint where we might be going wrong, we’re upgrading our accounts evenly offence/defence :unsure:

And yes, that TH11 is my engineered base that I talked about in my initial post ... she doesn’t war ... I’m a “she” btw :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Hi you’re more than welcome to come have a look, not sure how I’d share the information on all of them with you? Is there an easy way to extract it? There is no deliberate “engineering” in any of them ... but I guess it depends what you’re using as a definition for engineering? Because any decision you make results in engineering an outcome of some sort ... so if I decide to do all my hidden traps first and get my favourite army upgraded first, I suppose that I’ve decided to engineer that outcome :rolleyes: I also like to do ADs first at certain TH levels because you get spanked by air etc so in effect that could also be that I’ve engineered the outcome that a I’m defended against air attacks. But if you take that view, any decision you make can be classed as engineering, per se :saywhat: I took engineering in terms of this game to mean concentrating on offence to the exclusion of defence? But if you’re upgrading your defences as well as your offence it should result in standard matches? Maybe I’m being naive lol? If you have the time and would be willing to take a quick look and say “it’s that one and that one, because of x,y,z” I’d be very grateful and then I know in future :blush:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

They are rubbish bases, ours are standard so yes our TH10s are heavier than theirs :blush: So we can beat their bases, our TH12 got 93% on their top TH13 ... but it’s more why we’ve pulled an engineered clan in the first place (and by engineered I mean their bases are both engineered or rushed). We want to face like for like bases, and yes realise that sometimes there is an uneven split top to bottom based on strength of base but not like this. That’s what I’m looking to avoid in future, I’m thinking it’s my TH6 that may be causing the problems given what I’ve read. But I don’t know enough about the background workings of the game to pinpoint where we might be going wrong, we’re upgrading our accounts evenly offence/defence :unsure:

And yes, that TH11 is my engineered base that I talked about in my initial post ... she doesn’t war ... I’m a “she” btw :D

---

What is your clan tag?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

What is your clan tag?

---

s

Hey, it’s My Tribe
https://link.clashofclans.com/en?act...&tag=20GQJ8CC0

Sorry, it’s in my sign off so didn’t share in post :blush:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

They are rubbish bases, ours are standard so yes our TH10s are heavier than theirs :blush: So we can beat their bases, our TH12 got 93% on their top TH13 ... but it’s more why we’ve pulled an engineered clan in the first place (and by engineered I mean their bases are both engineered or rushed). We want to face like for like bases, and yes realise that sometimes there is an uneven split top to bottom based on strength of base but not like this. That’s what I’m looking to avoid in future, I’m thinking it’s my TH6 that may be causing the problems given what I’ve read. But I don’t know enough about the background workings of the game to pinpoint where we might be going wrong, we’re upgrading our accounts evenly offence/defence :unsure:

And yes, that TH11 is my engineered base that I talked about in my initial post ... she doesn’t war ... I’m a “she” btw :D

---

Sorry about the pronoun assumption.

If they are a bunch of rushed bases it's unlikely they are true engineer. MOre often just clueless. The issue here is two-fold I believe.

First - putting that sandbagged 11 into war is necessarily going to increase your risk of the opponent having sandbagged bases.
Second - I'm not sure how far into the 0.5 route you are going. If you are waiting to drop the new defenses (xbows at 9, infernos at 10, ea at 11, etc), this may cause you to draw others doing similar or more extreme. IME, once you've gotten most of the troops unlocked and heroes into that halls' levels you need to drop the defenses else you risk meeting sandbagged engies and/or heavier defensive bases.

Second - you are too focused on like for like at a TH level while running a massive spread of town hall levels. If you want like for like you need to narrow up the halls you bring into war. When the matchmaker has to deal with a range of halls it's easy to end up with a skew somewhere in there where the matchmaker will attempt to line up offense heavy with defense heavier or engies with rushers, etc.

Finally, discord + sidekick provides an excellent side by side hero comparison that is very useful. It would not tell us defense levels, but it's fairly easy to use hero levels as a proxy for defense levels. Most th10 with 70+ total hero levels will be a maxer while TH12 with teens heroes means their defense is probably lacking as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma

Sorry about the pronoun assumption.

If they are a bunch of rushed bases it's unlikely they are true engineer. MOre often just clueless. The issue here is two-fold I believe.

First - putting that sandbagged 11 into war is necessarily going to increase your risk of the opponent having sandbagged bases.
Second - I'm not sure how far into the 0.5 route you are going. If you are waiting to drop the new defenses (xbows at 9, infernos at 10, ea at 11, etc), this may cause you to draw others doing similar or more extreme. IME, once you've gotten most of the troops unlocked and heroes into that halls' levels you need to drop the defenses else you risk meeting sandbagged engies and/or heavier defensive bases.

Second - you are too focused on like for like at a TH level while running a massive spread of town hall levels. If you want like for like you need to narrow up the halls you bring into war. When the matchmaker has to deal with a range of halls it's easy to end up with a skew somewhere in there where the matchmaker will attempt to line up offense heavy with defense heavier or engies with rushers, etc.

Finally, discord + sidekick provides an excellent side by side hero comparison that is very useful. It would not tell us defense levels, but it's fairly easy to use hero levels as a proxy for defense levels. Most th10 with 70+ total hero levels will be a maxer while TH12 with teens heroes means their defense is probably lacking as well.

---

Thanks for your explanation of my issues and your time, but I fear you have missed my point and also overlooked the content of my posts :straightface:

2222 from what you’ve said, you get it, if you are able to take a look it would be appreciated ... we have a 1500 min trophy level if you come with a mini and need me to lower it, let me know :blush:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Really interested in this conversation, as we’ve been getting some right weird match-ups since launch of TH13 :( I must confess I don’t get into the nitty gritty details of the war weight, but just trust that if you upgrade evenly you should be bringing in fair matches!

We have a handful of rushed/engineered bases in our clan, but they don’t war generally and are mostly for donating purposes. We were a small clan and needed troop/siege donators, so I have an purely offence only TH11 for the troops and a rushed TH13 for the sieges (both of which over time I am now in the process of converting). If they do get included, usually when I need a top up on loot as haven’t been able to raid all my accounts, then I expect to get engineered/rushed line ups in the match up. The rest of our clan accounts are standard bases and these are what I include in 98% of the wars. We have TH13 through to TH6 and anyone who is green gets in war ... as I believe should be the case!! A clan is a family and by that definition all who want to should be able to play, after all war is a big part of the game. We’ve had to exclude THs lower than TH10 from CWL in order to compete, I am blowed if I’m going to say they can’t do classic war as well! With this in mind, our current war line up is below. We would normally have more up top but our big lads are upgrading heroes following end of season/CWL); we generally have have two or three other TH12s and a few more TH9s (so I realise it’s a bit of an awkward line up):

Us: 1 TH12, 7 TH11s, 8 TH10s, 4 TH9s, 2 TH8s, 2 TH7s, 1 TH6
Them: 3 TH13s, 2 TH12s, 6 TH11s, 5 TH10s, 5 TH9s, 2 TH8s, 1 TH7, 1 TH6

We are standard bases, in various stages of upgrade, some brand new upgrades, some in the middle, some near or maxed. Our TH12 is near max, only 25 wall segments to go. They are an engineered clan :rolleyes:

How is this match up fair? :straightface:

I did some reading on the match-ups because of what’s been happening and saw somewhere that if you include a TH6 in your line up, you are automatically classified as a engineered clan and will pull engineered opponents, do you guys know if this is this true?

We also had a feeling that by including a near max TH12 we were likely to pull a TH13 which we were prepared to live with ... our TH12 is a capable chap and they would have to beat him and his base also ... but three of them? Plus 2 TH12s? Then 6 TH11s? Come on!!

I’m going to try with just the TH7s next war match and see what that does, although it sticks in my craw! Without benching people and saying they can’t play, not sure what to do :confused: They will beat us, not by skill, but by purely overpowering us, which is not the point really is it! For instance, my TH11 base has withstood their initial attacks but they will just set one of the TH13s on it and it will be crushed :unsure:

Trying not to be grumpy about it, as I am thinking that things will even themselves out eventually as our TH13s get more established and back in the game but would be interested on your views re the TH6 and that line up :blush:

---

Have been trying to find a common link, based simply on break down numbers, before even looking at war weights, because I feel they place a big emphasis on hall matching toward the top..

The other "biggie" is war weight..
Your 11s and 12 seem to be engulfed.. But if you then add the 10s into the equation, then the numbers equal up..
So with little to work on, and them being rushed/engineered, it is quite possible the weights align..

The roster is also stretched.. Kudos to yourself for stating that the membership all deserve to war.. I can agree.. But it is likely that the MMA will pick up on the spread, rather than the reason, and therefore will thank you for making its job easier..
The spin result may sometimes work in your favour, and sometimes not (although if yours are heavy, its hard for you to get advantage, more so when your heaviest concentration is at 10, which seems to be your lowest controlling hall).. It becomes randomised.. But with your top end carrying most of the weight, anything below your 10s wont make a lot of difference to what happens come war day..

Your top end, down to the 10s, will still be controlling most of your spin anyway..
If you can see past the colour of their halls, they are likely lacking in any substance if they are rushed..
If they are engineered, then that is what their roster is set out to do.. They optimise to take advantage of weight differentials.

So this is where I would be looking..
Puma is placing big emphasis on hero size, and rightly so..
Not only do they carry both defence and offence weight, but they appear to also have a direct effect on the draw..
Big heroes will draw big heroes, or the opposition will gain something extra elsewhere to compensate for the "missing levels"..

The thing that makes it difficult, is that it is hard to try and tie down war weight, and simply looking at hall numbers doesnt really say anything.. The only hall that carries any weight with the jump itself is 12, due to that giga..
Every other hall, and the account carries exactly the same weight as previous, until structures/troops start to grow, or get added.

All we can work off is gold weight for defence.. On a war map or friendly challenge, count how many gold storage there are, plus add one for the hall, then multiply by the amount of gold held within that gold storage.. Note, it cant be done on the regular farming base..
For offence, look at the recommended target on an unhit map.. take the one above and add the one below (gold weight).. divide by 2 to get an average..
Pretty vague at best, and dont know if it even still applies.. But its all we got.

2222 knows his stuff.. If he is allowed to post here, then everyone will get a free lesson.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Really interested in this conversation, as we’ve been getting some right weird match-ups since launch of TH13 :( I must confess I don’t get into the nitty gritty details of the war weight, but just trust that if you upgrade evenly you should be bringing in fair matches!

We have a handful of rushed/engineered bases in our clan, but they don’t war generally and are mostly for donating purposes. We were a small clan and needed troop/siege donators, so I have an purely offence only TH11 for the troops and a rushed TH13 for the sieges (both of which over time I am now in the process of converting). If they do get included, usually when I need a top up on loot as haven’t been able to raid all my accounts, then I expect to get engineered/rushed line ups in the match up. The rest of our clan accounts are standard bases and these are what I include in 98% of the wars. We have TH13 through to TH6 and anyone who is green gets in war ... as I believe should be the case!! A clan is a family and by that definition all who want to should be able to play, after all war is a big part of the game. We’ve had to exclude THs lower than TH10 from CWL in order to compete, I am blowed if I’m going to say they can’t do classic war as well! With this in mind, our current war line up is below. We would normally have more up top but our big lads are upgrading heroes following end of season/CWL); we generally have have two or three other TH12s and a few more TH9s (so I realise it’s a bit of an awkward line up):

Us: 1 TH12, 7 TH11s, 8 TH10s, 4 TH9s, 2 TH8s, 2 TH7s, 1 TH6
Them: 3 TH13s, 2 TH12s, 6 TH11s, 5 TH10s, 5 TH9s, 2 TH8s, 1 TH7, 1 TH6

We are standard bases, in various stages of upgrade, some brand new upgrades, some in the middle, some near or maxed. Our TH12 is near max, only 25 wall segments to go. They are an engineered clan :rolleyes:

How is this match up fair? :straightface:

I did some reading on the match-ups because of what’s been happening and saw somewhere that if you include a TH6 in your line up, you are automatically classified as a engineered clan and will pull engineered opponents, do you guys know if this is this true?

---

Given there is no such thing as "classified as an engineered clan", it cannot be true, and isn't.

What is true though is that the bigger the range of TH in your roster, the harder it is for the matchmaker to find a reasonable match.

Fighting 25v25 with a range fromn TH12 to TH6 (or in their case TH13 to TH6) is going to result in not many similar clans searching at eth same time. Which leads to unbalanced matches - and obviously one side gets it hard, while the other gets it easy when that happens. Neither you nor your opponents have an ideal match.

Quote:

---

We also had a feeling that by including a near max TH12 we were likely to pull a TH13 which we were prepared to live with ... our TH12 is a capable chap and they would have to beat him and his base also ... but three of them? Plus 2 TH12s? Then 6 TH11s? Come on!!

I’m going to try with just the TH7s next war match and see what that does, although it sticks in my craw!

---

Even that might be a little wide. Most of the posts on this I have seen seem to think a spread of 4-5 TH is good, anything more starts to gtet riskier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

s

Hey, it’s My Tribe
https://link.clashofclans.com/en?act...&tag=20GQJ8CC0

Sorry, it’s in my sign off so didn’t share in post :blush:

---

Sorry, I should have noticed it in your signature.

Looking at your recent war history, it looks like usually you do get pretty even matches, although you don't always go down to th6. I do think that spread of th12-6 is more likely to lead to an odd match like this. The defenseless th11 you have might make it more likely to lead to a match with a clan doing something similar. This one seems to be particularly bad, although again just knowing the halls doesn't say much and I was only looking at your past matches, not your current one.

Are their th13s and th12s very rushed? Did they make the jump up to th13 very recently (or even after the match)?

It could be the match is fairly even if their th13s and th12s are really rushed. Are their heroes way behind?

I think I'd chalk this up to an odd match that looking at your history doesn't happen all that often....but...is more likely to happen with a big hall spread and a defenseless base than with a tight hall spread and no defenseless base. I'm not certain that one defenseless base makes much difference given the large war size. It could be more related to the hall spread. Or it could be the war isn't all that uneven because the other clan is very rushed.

I visited Belinio's clan (My Tribe) and threw together these numbers:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

The opponent has a weak middle.

Note the massive queen and king advantage especially through the middle. They are heavily outmatched at warden as expected based on the number of TH11+ the opponent has.

Possible reasons My Tribe drew the sandbaggers - they are still doing 0.5, the bottom 2 11s do not have ea, and they have a near maxed 10 that has no infernos (base 14). This is weak, but it's my best guess.

I am just spitballing, but I would guess that the MM while not even close to matching hall to hall at the top felt that the strong middle that My Tribe had was enough to overcome the disadvantage at the top. None of the opponent's 13s had scattershots, however, base 1 had GI upgraded to 3, bases 2 & 3 it was still at level 1. Most of the opponent's bases had rushed walls and defenses...base 1 was mostly l9 walls,base 2 mostly level 11, base 3 mostly l10.

I could have spent the time counting up the top end defense levels but didn't have the patience heh.

Thank you Joshsgrandad for your even handed response, have taken on board your comments. And yes, appreciate 2222’s comments so far :rolleyes:

Thank you Ajax also, for actually answering my original question re the TH6 and link with engineering, it’s good to knock that on the head as to be honest I didn’t really believe it but have read it and also been told by people that it was the case. Our poor old TH6s will be relieved ;) Also thank you for your thoughts on TH spread, that is disappointing, as to even that up I would have to leave people who want to war out (thus engineering my roster, which is ironic)! 2222 I appreciate your comments too, we do usually go down to TH6 but the more recent matches they haven’t always been, because of the comments and what we read about TH6/engineering and trying to see if it improved the matches, it did somewhat but still heavier up top. The best one we got was TH11s to TH7 :rolleyes: I don’t know where you’re looking but if you look back before the TH13 upgrade pretty much all our wars have TH6/7s in :blush:

Following Puma’s post (thank you for visiting us) and the continued comments about my “defenceless TH11” I’d like to just clarify:

1. The engineered TH11 was not in war! I have said this numerous times. She is primarily a donator. If I do put her in we suck up what she brings, she goes in when I need a boost to my loot and don’t have time to raid all 12 of my accounts :unsure: As she wasn’t in this war roster or the others where we have has mismatches, she is irrelevant and not a factor. She was built for a purpose to donate troops when I first thinking to set up my own clan and my main was TH9. I am currently in the process of dropping and maxing all her walls (69 to go) and she will then start getting converted to a standard base.

2. We are not “still doing” 0.5, we have one guy who hasn’t really played that much recently but has been playing for a long time who hasn’t dropped his infernos. He has done so now as I’ve told him to, his heroes are strong enough, they should have been done. The two TH11s without eagles are newly upgraded TH11s :unsure: They’ll get their eagles when they’ve had a few more things upgraded. One of them is my main, I put her on upgrade as part of the 50% off event and again, have just been upgrading the Queen and a few defences/walls, stuff I could do with runes and haven’t had time to give her much more attention. I have seven accounts on the move up. I can’t do it all at once and I don’t believe that the matchmaker would see newly upgraded THs as a problem, surely? :unsure:

3. Our matches have been heavier at the top recently. I don’t know why you think they haven’t been 2222? And yes, from everything that has been said, agree with you, think that the range of THs is likely a culprit (I did say at the beginning that we normally have more TH12s and TH9s in). We have some very good experienced players, so punch above our weight so to speak. But still, we should not have pulled the match we did, we are not engineering, we do not have rushed bases and we had one TH12 in ... the argument about overall weight is not my point. This was the sort of match we used to get when engineering was rife and before the matchmaking was updated. It was supposed to not happen any more. No, it doesn’t happen all the time but it does happen and we also often pull clans with TH13 (when we have none) alongside TH12s that outnumber our TH12s (both with at least one or two armies maxed). In this match, we should not have pulled the THs we did or the types of bases they had. Yes, their bases were very rushed, some were also engineered, and we beat them because of it. But the bald fact is that TH13s with upgraded troops and camps would spank TH12s, which was evidenced by the fact that their TH13 did exactly that to our max TH12 and our second TH11. Our TH12 had a fabulous hit on their #1 and got us 93%. We were just lucky that this particular clan had no attacking skills in the middle, so they didn’t deal with our bases and then gave up. It was a hollow victory. But in the past match ups with top heavy THs compared to us, they have been good attackers and we were just going through the motions of putting up a fight.

We want to face clans with bases similar to ours and TH levels similar to ours, isn’t that understandable (I know it’s not going to be perfect)? I am sad that the way I get to do that looks like it is by leaving people out because the matchmaker has a hard time finding clans like ours. I look around my friends and see dozens of clans like ours. Leaving aside the TH spread, we aren’t engineering or rushing our warring accounts, so we shouldn’t pull matches like this :facepalm: As Puma said on visiting us, we’re “maxers” :unsure:

I will think twice about posting in here again, I think, but thank you all for your time :straightface:

Sorry I missed that the engineered th11 wasn’t in this most recent war. What do you mean by heavier at that top and me not thinking so?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Thank you Joshsgrandad for your even handed response, have taken on board your comments. And yes, appreciate 2222’s comments so far :rolleyes:

Thank you Ajax also, for actually answering my original question re the TH6 and link with engineering, it’s good to knock that on the head as to be honest I didn’t really believe it but have read it and also been told by people that it was the case. Our poor old TH6s will be relieved ;) Also thank you for your thoughts on TH spread, that is disappointing, as to even that up I would have to leave people who want to war out (thus engineering my roster, which is ironic)! 2222 I appreciate your comments too, we do usually go down to TH6 but the more recent matches they haven’t always been, because of the comments and what we read about TH6/engineering and trying to see if it improved the matches, it did somewhat but still heavier up top. The best one we got was TH11s to TH7 :rolleyes: I don’t know where you’re looking but if you look back before the TH13 upgrade pretty much all our wars have TH6/7s in :blush:

Following Puma’s post (thank you for visiting us) and the continued comments about my “defenceless TH11” I’d like to just clarify:

1. The engineered TH11 was not in war! I have said this numerous times. She is primarily a donator. If I do put her in we suck up what she brings, she goes in when I need a boost to my loot and don’t have time to raid all 12 of my accounts :unsure: As she wasn’t in this war roster or the others where we have has mismatches, she is irrelevant and not a factor. She was built for a purpose to donate troops when I first thinking to set up my own clan and my main was TH9. I am currently in the process of dropping and maxing all her walls (69 to go) and she will then start getting converted to a standard base.

2. We are not “still doing” 0.5, we have one guy who hasn’t really played that much recently but has been playing for a long time who hasn’t dropped his infernos. He has done so now as I’ve told him to, his heroes are strong enough, they should have been done. The two TH11s without eagles are newly upgraded TH11s :unsure: They’ll get their eagles when they’ve had a few more things upgraded. One of them is my main, I put her on upgrade as part of the 50% off event and again, have just been upgrading the Queen and a few defences/walls, stuff I could do with runes and haven’t had time to give her much more attention. I have seven accounts on the move up. I can’t do it all at once and I don’t believe that the matchmaker would see newly upgraded THs as a problem, surely? :unsure:

3. Our matches have been heavier at the top recently. I don’t know why you think they haven’t been 2222? And yes, from everything that has been said, agree with you, think that the range of THs is likely a culprit (I did say at the beginning that we normally have more TH12s and TH9s in). We have some very good experienced players, so punch above our weight so to speak. But still, we should not have pulled the match we did, we are not engineering, we do not have rushed bases and we had one TH12 in ... the argument about overall weight is not my point. This was the sort of match we used to get when engineering was rife and before the matchmaking was updated. It was supposed to not happen any more. No, it doesn’t happen all the time but it does happen and we also often pull clans with TH13 (when we have none) alongside TH12s that outnumber our TH12s (both with at least one or two armies maxed). In this match, we should not have pulled the THs we did or the types of bases they had. Yes, their bases were very rushed, some were also engineered, and we beat them because of it. But the bald fact is that TH13s with upgraded troops and camps would spank TH12s, which was evidenced by the fact that their TH13 did exactly that to our max TH12 and our second TH11. Our TH12 had a fabulous hit on their #1 and got us 93%. We were just lucky that this particular clan had no attacking skills in the middle, so they didn’t deal with our bases and then gave up. It was a hollow victory. But in the past match ups with top heavy THs compared to us, they have been good attackers and we were just going through the motions of putting up a fight.

We want to face clans with bases similar to ours and TH levels similar to ours, isn’t that understandable (I know it’s not going to be perfect)? I am sad that the way I get to do that looks like it is by leaving people out because the matchmaker has a hard time finding clans like ours. I look around my friends and see dozens of clans like ours. Leaving aside the TH spread, we aren’t engineering or rushing our warring accounts, so we shouldn’t pull matches like this :facepalm: As Puma said on visiting us, we’re “maxers” :unsure:

I will think twice about posting in here again, I think, but thank you all for your time :straightface:

---

I think greatpuma has been doing great job summarizing your match. You r facing totally casual clan not engineers

a few point

MM will try to match you to similar clan, which is not many available now i think with that roster

TH matching on top has always been priority in current MM algorithm, but if u maxed your TH below max th there is very big chance for you to match TH above you at casual clans a max TH12 will be very likely face early TH13, max th11 face early TH12, because if they give you same TH then you will be very likely get advantage of your maxed offense.

Even at top bases you have heroes advantage, the option for your clan is upgrade that 1 max th12 to th13 and those 3 max th11 to th12s, or accept the fact that you will often get this kind of match.

@ Amazon..
It is a shame your tone suggests you feel the people here have looked to have a go at you, belittled your approach, and generally pointed the finger at you..

I dont think this was the attention at all.
The war sub forum tends to be populated by a small bunch that have a particular interest in war, and how they perceive the MMA to be working in particular..
None of us here have any inside info.. We just spend our time chatting, setting up rosters, and posting and reading our and others experiences..

At the end of the day, its only the posters thoughts that we read, as we dont see the actual break downs, dont know the strengths and weaknesses of the individuals within the war, and dont get to see the wars blow by blow (not that anything except actual numbers have anything to do with the actual draw)..

So we give it our best guess.. Not to sound clever, or berate anyone..
The hope is that others with problems can learn a little from others experiences, which hopefully can save the individual from months of experimenting with break downs..
But most of all, its only advice.. The more you read, play, post, and learn, the easier it is to simply read what is written, then form your own judgement..

After all, its your clan, your decision.. But as I said, a little (or a lot of) reading can sure help to understand what is going on sometimes.. And sometimes you will realise its only a one off bad draw, if normally things are much better..

To continue.. Doing the x.5 route shouldnt affect the draw too much, except that the extra offence can lead to facing heavier defence on the opposite side.. I always do x.5, but war no bigger than th9,, Last war, I had 7 of them in a 20v, and none carry bows.. The oppo still had 7x 9s, and all of them did carry the bows.. Obviously I won, due to all that weight the bows sucked out of their allowance (the weight has to be paid back somewhere).. But it could easily go south, since my top bases are easier to clear..
So it isnt the way to go if you want a big win streak.

this is why I and others mention the top end matching, and build type..
The majority of weight is at the top, and therefore the biggest influence will be there..
So if the majority of the weight is concentrated just below that top hall eg 1x 12, then lots of 10s and 11s, and they are heavy maxers, it gives way to the chance the oppo will carry more top halls for the same weight.. Even tho they have to trim all the excess by being rushed or engineered..

Try to think that although maxer is deemed the "fairest" way to progress, it is also the least beneficial in a war draw (except top hall/anchor), due to all the wasted weight it carries.. The things it never uses are still added to the overall roster value in that search.

Well done on the win, and good luck, if you decide the war forum isnt for you.

Here with the result for previous war. Their th11s were of such defence that pur th10 3* them. Because of that they had strong defence at top in form of th13. And we loose their only. We failed to 2* two of the th13 and managed 2 on third one. So Lerner that if you want manageable top you should have low middle bases. But matching total clan wight for war will always help those who enginers war.

Just to add they have win streak of 22 before they matched us. They are rushers of different type.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

Here with the result for previous war. Their th11s were of such defence that pur th10 3* them. Because of that they had strong defence at top in form of th13. And we loose their only. We failed to 2* two of the th13 and managed 2 on third one. So Lerner that if you want manageable top you should have low middle bases. But matching total clan wight for war will always help those who enginers war.

---

It isn't as simple as "total clan weight" (that would actually benefit a clan like your with low bases at the bottom more than clans with engineered accounts) but it is true that it isn't lane by lane matching. One thing that has always been the case is it is very hard to get a good win streak going if you have maxed halls at the top of your roster that aren't the top hall (which currently is th13, but it was true in the past too). You might do just fine for a few wars in a row and then suddenly you match a clan that has a couple accounts with a higher hall that are not very advanced, but advanced enough to give an advantage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

Sorry I missed that the engineered th11 wasn’t in this most recent war. What do you mean by heavier at that top and me not thinking so?

---

“Looking at your recent war history, it looks like usually you do get pretty even matches, although you don't always go down to th6. I do think that spread of th12-6 is more likely to lead to an odd match like this. The defenseless th11 you have might make it more likely to lead to a match with a clan doing something similar. This one seems to be particularly bad, although again just knowing the halls doesn't say much and I was only looking at your past matches, not your current one.”

Hey 2222, it’s the evenly matched comment above, sorry if that is not what you meant by that, as they haven’t been evenly matched, imo, and by heavier I mean out matched offensively, I guess in the speak you guys are using. Our stars and % indicate how scrappy we are, not how evenly matched the matches are. We have similar in CWL and if you saw the matches we have in there ... oh boy (and yes, I know that’s random matching so just pot luck what you get). So for instance in another match, we had 2TH12s with our TH11s/10s etc and pull 2 TH13s, 2 TH12s and a bunch of TH11/10s, the TH13s with one or two maxed armies and decent attackers. Again, in my view, not a fair match :unsure:

I think Ajax has answered my queries tbh, although I might not totally like the answer as I don’t want to have to leave people out but I’m glad the TH6 business is a load of tosh.

I wonder if it would also help if something like TH level was given greater priority in the matchmaking for a short period of time after a new TH release perhaps? Just thinking aloud, but maybe that would restrict the search pot too much and break the thing altogether, I don’t know. If you read the last sentence of my original post, I have no doubt as time goes on this will settle down. It’s just frustrating that since the update we are getting some rubbish matches where before we were getting some fab ones, where we felt we were being given a run for our money. If we won, it felt good, if we lost we were gutted but hats off to them. The type of matches we’ve been getting we just feel a bit deflated by and “oh gawd, not this ♥♥♥♥ again” :confused: I just want back what we used to have I guess, challenging matches but challenging for the right reasons, decent bases, decent players. I just wanted to sound out in here, curious if there wasn’t something else causing this that I was missing, hence my interest in this thread ;)

And just for the record, Puma was lovely when he visited ... I just felt his follow up post and thought of why we got that match and on our accounts (ie my engineered TH11, the so-called 0.5, and two THs without eagles) wasn’t quite accurate and sought to clarify, as you guys continued to expand based on that viewpoint.

Joshsgrandad ... you hit the nail on the head, maybe I’m reading it wrong, but that is exactly how I felt tbh. Trainee moniker in forum does not equate to “utter eejit” in relation to gameplay or experience. I just don’t have an the in-depth knowledge of the minutiae of the matchmaker and weighting calculations ;) Still I’ve had a good night’s sleep and a cuppa, feeling invigorated ... another war spin tonight, we shall see what we get ;)

Have a great day you lot :blush:

Looking at your wars in December online, they look very even at the top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

Looking at your wars in December online, they look very even at the top.

---

Yes ... some have been ... but I just told my big lads what you said and they laughed :smirk: I guess it’s a matter of perspective, let’s agree to disagree :D

Moving on, currently attempting a 7-11 to see what that gives me. It’s taking a blinking age this time, been going for an hour, which means at some point it’s going to give us any old rubbish again I presume XD It appears I cannot win lol :confused: Is there anything in this starting, restarting searches if they go beyond 20 minutes or is that a load of old tosh as well?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raidmachine

Here with the result for previous war. Their th11s were of such defence that pur th10 3* them. Because of that they had strong defence at top in form of th13. And we loose their only. We failed to 2* two of the th13 and managed 2 on third one. So Lerner that if you want manageable top you should have low middle bases. But matching total clan wight for war will always help those who enginers war.

---

Yeah mate.. A clan that engineers properly is playing against the matchmaker.. The opposition is simply a measure of how well they are doing it.. It should always be a win (until they find a clan that engineers better).
A maxers only weakness is that even the unused or overweight items are upgraded, which becomes dead weight.
But their balanced halls should also make them more common, so they should usually match another maxer clan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Yes ... some have been ... but I just told my big lads what you said and they laughed :smirk: I guess it’s a matter of perspective, let’s agree to disagree :D

Moving on, currently attempting a 7-11 to see what that gives me. It’s taking a blinking age this time, been going for an hour, which means at some point it’s going to give us any old rubbish again I presume XD It appears I cannot win lol :confused: Is there anything in this starting, restarting searches if they go beyond 20 minutes or is that a load of old tosh as well?

---

I run th9 down to 5.. They are built on the offence over defence method (x.5)..
None of my 9s carry xbow, which makes them unusual..
It can take me over 20 hours to match sometimes, but it only takes one clan to get a hit (and time zones mean new clans are starting their spin all the time)..

There used to be a time when it was said the search parameters would widen as time elapsed..
But with the current MMA, I have timed out a couple of times (no match in 24 hours).

this suggests to me that it will keep searching until something similar is found, rather than give a rubbish match..
Therefore, I just let it spin..

To add.. Please post your thoughts on the match, once you get it..
I am most interested when spins dont match at the top..

Funnily enough, even tho mine are "incomplete", I tend to see the same numbers of top hall (9s) on both sides..

I would expect that if you are spinning multiple 11s as your top, you should see a better result than a single 12..
Fingers crossed Belinio.. Good luck.. And remember, all we are doing is guessing.. exciting stuff tho..

Attachment 214452

Our latest match ... top 3 on both sides (hope I’ve attached the picture correctly). TH13 with 2 max scattershots, max eagle, L1 TH inferno and max TH12 defences vs a TH11! The rest of the line up has some give and takes but their troops are reasonable and certainly not enough ‘give’ to justify this, they are decent bases as well it looks apart from the bottom two TH7s and their TH8 which are a bit rubbish :confused: I guess we wait to see if their attacking skills are credible. So would you say this was fair, because I think it’s laughable?

PS Any of you are welcome to come take a look at the whole thing if you can’t see the picture properly :blush:

Edit: Some of their middle bases are low level too, heroes across the board vary from low to mid-level to reasonable, the TH13 has high ... but in the overall scheme of things this stuff is kind of irrelevant :facepalm: Their war log is also fair to middling, so I guess a twinkle of hope there but some recent high % wins.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

We want to face clans with bases similar to ours and TH levels similar to ours, isn’t that understandable (I know it’s not going to be perfect)? I am sad that the way I get to do that looks like it is by leaving people out because the matchmaker has a hard time finding clans like ours. I look around my friends and see dozens of clans like ours. Leaving aside the TH spread, we aren’t engineering or rushing our warring accounts, so we shouldn’t pull matches like this :facepalm: As Puma said on visiting us, we’re “maxers” :unsure:

---

i want to reiterate something here that i tried to get across in class chat but it could have gotten missed. there are many thousands of clans out there, the vast majority of which are not maxers. people who Max heroes at th11 are rare. even rater are those that do walls as well. having 4 of these in one clan rater still. with cwl now everyone is wanting to advance faster so they don't sit around maxing out.

therefore, trust me, just because you're aware of a few clans in your friends list, these are a drop in the ocean. that count is dwarfed by the current clash population. so if you want perfect Hall to Hall matching why not stage friendlies with those clans that are just like you? we might be interested in it, but i think y'all have more 11s than us. maybe we could slim down a lineup and do a 15v friendly with matching Halls.

another thing i want to mention... while this matchup was lopsided based on th, y'all whipped them, your middle weight won the war regardless of how many stars they got on your top bases. i don't really think that even if they were quality attackers they could have overcome your middle with their hero levels. they would have needed way to many perfect th10v10 attacks with teens heroes.

Finally I'll second what Josh said. we're here to help. 99% of those that come here don't care much what we say and tend to not want to learn how the mm works they just want to vent. So I'd ask you to forgive anyone who you feel belittled you or your issue. Most everyone here is interested in helping, we're just jaded because most people just want to argue lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Yes ... some have been ... but I just told my big lads what you said and they laughed :smirk: I guess it’s a matter of perspective, let’s agree to disagree :D

---

I can't see the January 12th one, but you dominated. As for December, the 5 that I see in December: 1) top 5 all the same halls th12s and th11s; 2) same; 3) same but this time 7 th12s/11s, all same as enemy; 4) top ones lined up again except this one you went with th11 as your top hall and enemy had a th11 (see note below); 5) top 5+ all the same as enemy.

Note: your one "bad" match in the sense of the enemy had a higher top hall was when you went with th11s as your top halls. As I've noted previously, if those th11s are really advanced, especially if max or close, you are going to match a th12 at the top at times. It has always been the case that if you run with a maxed out hall at the top that isn't the top hall you are going to at times match clans with a higher top hall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma

i want to reiterate something here that i tried to get across in class chat but it could have gotten missed. there are many thousands of clans out there, the vast majority of which are not maxers. people who Max heroes at th11 are rare. even rater are those that do walls as well. having 4 of these in one clan rater still. with cwl now everyone is wanting to advance faster so they don't sit around maxing out.

therefore, trust me, just because you're aware of a few clans in your friends list, these are a drop in the ocean. that count is dwarfed by the current clash population. so if you want perfect Hall to Hall matching why not stage friendlies with those clans that are just like you? we might be interested in it, but i think y'all have more 11s than us. maybe we could slim down a lineup and do a 15v friendly with matching Halls.

another thing i want to mention... while this matchup was lopsided based on th, y'all whipped them, your middle weight won the war regardless of how many stars they got on your top bases. i don't really think that even if they were quality attackers they could have overcome your middle with their hero levels. they would have needed way to many perfect th10v10 attacks with teens heroes.

Finally I'll second what Josh said. we're here to help. 99% of those that come here don't care much what we say and tend to not want to learn how the mm works they just want to vent. So I'd ask you to forgive anyone who you feel belittled you or your issue. Most everyone here is interested in helping, we're just jaded because most people just want to argue lol.

---

I agree regarding top halls and also it is interesting to note you won the match big, so maybe those hall levels only told part of the story. Sometimes what looks like a bad match ends up being ok. I know I've had that happen to my clan (and sometimes it ends up really being a bad match).

From a personal perspective, my visit with samratulangi needs to be my priority, so far as my education goes..
To chat with the top engineer in the game ATM would help me so much in my personal understanding..
After all, there is only so much one can learn from personal experience..

On top of that, everyone that posts regularly here has a passion for the matching side of the game..
Great bunch and so much knowledge/nous..
Even when we are a little off the mark, there is usually something to spark an interest, or idea that hadnt occurred to me..

That brings me back to the current discussion.. Congrats on the win last war btw..

I havent come across a clan of "pure maxers" before (not since the old days anyway)..
I can easily imagine how like minded people will bond together, so for a whole group that will pretty much hold out till the last brick is done seems feasible to me..

But then we turn to the MM, and more so with top end matching..
It seems vital at this point, that the "stage of build" is noted, since if many accounts in the roster, and more so at the top are at, or approaching max state, then it would be impossible to do hall match, and not throw advantage to that roster every time..

It becomes a throw back to the old perma max era that preceded lop sided engineering.. The very thing that likely prompted SC to make that catastrophic MM change back in March 2016 (If I remember the date correctly).

But since it is a delicate subject, with a passionate and frustrated clan leader, then caution needs to be observed, if folk wish to dig deeper..
An added problem, is that in order to improve "visual harmony", then either accounts would need to be removed, or a change towards the thought processes amongst the membership would be required..
And since those accounts equate to people, it is unlikely to happen..

Myself.. I war with only one other person with one account on the roster, so changing things around is usual and problem free..
I have a maxer type mentality with a twist.. There is still some planned omissions in most of my accounts above TH8 (I pure max till then)..
This is maybe the reason I always get that top hall parity, as none are anywhere near that max state for hall.

I am intrigued at the effects their build is having, and would love to crunch the numbers a little further..
But I feel that unless the clan runs multi accounts, then nothing is likely to change.. There are real people involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma

i want to reiterate something here that i tried to get across in class chat but it could have gotten missed. there are many thousands of clans out there, the vast majority of which are not maxers. people who Max heroes at th11 are rare. even rater are those that do walls as well. having 4 of these in one clan rater still. with cwl now everyone is wanting to advance faster so they don't sit around maxing out.

---

OK, fair point and yes, didn’t see that in clan chat :facepalm: But see, we’re in this for the long haul and I’m assuming that eventually when we get to the point where we have got ourselves to TH13/12s and competing higher in CWL that this will be an advantage. The difference between 3* those top bases rather than 2* and giving away points because someone’s weak walls were too easy to break through with the latest ground army (and yes, I know oinkers and flying lizards don’t care about walls, but still) :D At the moment we scrap, steal and compete because I have great attackers in my clan but we just get overwhelmed by higher THs for stars :blush: We always aim for third in that league, the silly thing is that if we matched them hall for hall we’d have slaughtered all the clans in our last match up :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma

therefore, trust me, just because you're aware of a few clans in your friends list, these are a drop in the ocean. that count is dwarfed by the current clash population. so if you want perfect Hall to Hall matching why not stage friendlies with those clans that are just like you? we might be interested in it, but i think y'all have more 11s than us. maybe we could slim down a lineup and do a 15v friendly with matching Halls.

---

We’ve never done friendlies, in fact I’ve never done a friendly in my CoC history lol, do they work the same as normal war or are there differences? Be sumat new to try I guess, and at least we would know what we’re getting and it’ll be a more even skill for skill test. I’ll have a chat with them and see what they think, some of them might have done some before :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma

another thing i want to mention... while this matchup was lopsided based on th, y'all whipped them, your middle weight won the war regardless of how many stars they got on your top bases. i don't really think that even if they were quality attackers they could have overcome your middle with their hero levels. they would have needed way to many perfect th10v10 attacks with teens heroes.

---

I know but it’s not a challenge is it, smashing up pathetic bases ... and it’s no test of our bases either ... one of our mid-TH11s beat one of their TH13s and that shouldn’t be happening (despite being an awesome attack! And their #2 just annihilated our #1 because of the power of his troops :unsure: It’s just frustrating and I guess I’m frustrated because you guys keep saying these are ‘fair matches’, to me it’s broken, but yes I get the point in your first para :unsure: I know it will never be perfect, but we were mostly pulling evenly matched opposition :straightface: Did you see the pic of what our TH11s pulled this time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma

Finally I'll second what Josh said. we're here to help. 99% of those that come here don't care much what we say and tend to not want to learn how the mm works they just want to vent. So I'd ask you to forgive anyone who you feel belittled you or your issue. Most everyone here is interested in helping, we're just jaded because most people just want to argue lol.

---

You guys were pretty overwhelming in those initial exchanges and I don’t know you yet ... text speak and “emails” aren’t really the best form of communication, you can’t see expressions and tone. Because of the way I felt you all pounced and then especially banged on about my TH11, when it wasn’t even in war and I’d said that up front, in terms of full disclosure because I know how some people feel about them. I didn’t want anyone looking at the clan and saying “ahhhh that’s why then” but that is exactly what you guys did lol despite me having told you it wasn’t in war. Then telling me there is no problem ... just because we win doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem. So I guess I was overly defensive about it and apologise for being quick on the draw in return :facepalm:

PS Doesn’t mean I’m not listening and absorbing the info btw ;)

EDIT: How do you guys do that clipping of the quotes? So multiple quotes, then your comments? It’s put my comments in the quote box so looks like I’ve just said the last paragraph ... I’ve commented in between each para Puma not just at the end :D Aha, got it ♥♥♥♥ ;) Why did it censor that? :D:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

OK, fair point and yes, didn’t see that in clan chat :facepalm: But see, we’re in this for the long haul and I’m assuming that eventually when we get to the point where we have got ourselves to TH13/12s and competing higher in CWL that this will be an advantage. The difference between 3* those top bases rather than 2* and giving away points because someone’s weak walls were too easy to break through with the latest ground army (and yes, I know oinkers and flying lizards don’t care about walls, but still) :D At the moment we scrap, steal and compete because I have great attackers in my clan but we just get overwhelmed by higher THs for stars :blush: We always aim for third in that league, the silly thing is that if we matched them hall for hall we’d have slaughtered all the clans in our last match up :p

---

Part of the problem seems to be that base progression is being done with cwl being the final destination.
Cwl is unweighted, so there is no effect on "matching" created by anything that is added to an account, or indeed anything included within the breakdown.
But the problems are with the MMA, which is weighted, and looking to give a match that IT perceives as fair, which may not include hall parity, if the accounts are at or approaching max state.. to do so, would always give that roster advantage, or likely time out whilst looking for a mirror match opponent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

We’ve never done friendlies, in fact I’ve never done a friendly in my CoC history lol, do they work the same as normal war or are there differences? Be sumat new to try I guess, and at least we would know what we’re getting and it’ll be a more even skill for skill test. I’ll have a chat with them and see what they think, some of them might have done some before :D

---

If you prefer to see something more pleasing on the eye, then friendlies are a good idea.. You can then come to agreement with the potential opponent on what is or isnt allowed within that "match"..
Hand picked opponents without the unknown criteria contained within the random spin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

I know but it’s not a challenge is it, smashing up pathetic bases ... and it’s no test of our bases either ... one of our mid-TH11s beat one of their TH13s and that shouldn’t be happening (despite being an awesome attack! And their #2 just annihilated our #1 because of the power of his troops :unsure: It’s just frustrating and I guess I’m frustrated because you guys keep saying these are ‘fair matches’, to me it’s broken, but yes I get the point in your first para :unsure: I know it will never be perfect, but we were mostly pulling evenly matched opposition :straightface: Did you see the pic of what our TH11s pulled this time?

---

The trouble with random spin (classic), is that the match is done roster v roster.. Not base v base..
So there is always the element of give and take, if heavy, max for level bases are used.
Anything given has to be paid back.. So a big base and a small base would get 2 average bases so to speak..
Put this simple process into a large war size, and the appearance can look totally distorted..

To say an 11 shouldnt be killing a 13 isnt a good view, since it depends on how big and how good of a lay out that 13 has.. Unfortunately, we humans are programmed to look at things in a certain way.. And numerics is a big part of our thought processes.
If your accounts havent changed much, then its the opposition landscape that is changing.. their rushing is placing them in the same weight brackets as yourselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

You guys were pretty overwhelming in those initial exchanges and I don’t know you yet ... text speak and “emails” aren’t really the best form of communication, you can’t see expressions and tone. Because of the way I felt you all pounced and then especially banged on about my TH11, when it wasn’t even in war and I’d said that up front, in terms of full disclosure because I know how some people feel about them. I didn’t want anyone looking at the clan and saying “ahhhh that’s why then” but that is exactly what you guys did lol despite me having told you it wasn’t in war. Then telling me there is no problem ... just because we win doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem. So I guess I was overly defensive about it and apologise for being quick on the draw in return :facepalm:

PS Doesn’t mean I’m not listening and absorbing the info btw ;)

---

People often get upset at the replies..
Sometimes its simply that they refuse to accept its the roster that drives the match, therefore it is deemed "fair" in the eyes of the MMA..
It doesnt matter what we think, we dont make the draw.. We simply look at, then discuss, the outcme..
Also understand the guys here look at wars every day.. Their own and others..
Nobody looks to upset anybody, but the language used can appear flippant, accusing, or simply nonchalant.. because its simply another war being discussed..
I can, hoever, understand that it is more important than that to the individual that is asking..

An example of the "maxer" problem my latest spin..
They have a completely max 9 (70k).. I dont carry any bows at all..
They have bows on every one of theirs..

In order to get that 7v7 for top halls.. Their lower 2 TH9s are sitting below 8s.. A classic case of give and take..
They may beat me, due to that max base, dependant on war lay out..
But that base only got in due to the underweight ones lower down..

If you are carrying several of them, then there is no chance of "parity matching".. Your accounts are too heavy..
Replacing a max hall with that engi base may even go some way towards making the draw look better..
But the war result may not be so good..
You are winning, so that does indeed say something.. If you were way outmatched, it would become impossible to win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

Part of the problem seems to be that base progression is being done with cwl being the final destination.
Cwl is unweighted, so there is no effect on "matching" created by anything that is added to an account, or indeed anything included within the breakdown..

---

Hey Joshsgrandad ... No, sorry, that’s an assumption you’ve made there ;) I was simply using it as an example of where I see having maxed bases will eventually be an advantage for us, as you are all telling me our bases are “too heavy” and indicating that by maxing we may be at a disadvantage with the MMA with our roster from a weighting point of view given how the majority of other clans are progressing. I’m aware there is no matching in CWL. Tbh we don’t have a “purpose” as such to our base builds other than to reach the end, generally in the optimum length of time, bringing up defence/offence evenly and yes, maxing our heroes and walls before moving up to the next level lol :D The only conscious decision we make is re the big ticket defences, they go down when the offence is upgraded enough to take the extra weight (ie generally one upgraded war army and heroes about half way through). From a learning and confidence point of view, I don’t want a newly upgraded TH11 to end up on top of the tree, which has happened in the past, they gotta learn how to walk before they run and my experience is they end up better attackers for it. It’s not so much of a factor now, as we all know each other pretty well, but when we started it really messed up their confidence having to drop to hit targets. I foster a culture of one safe, one stretch and we work as a team. I also don’t want to give in to options that try to manipulate the MMA for war, as I’m hoping it will all even out in future as our TH11s become 12s and TH12s become 13s and what we’ve been seeing is just a short frustrating hiccup in that, down to the introduction of a new TH :blush:

I might put Lioness in the next war I do with the TH11s at the top, for fun, to test your theory and see what she does to that line up XD It’ll be ironic if it improves it, given she’s one of the reviled engineered bases of the past lol :D The prospect of that is actually making me chortle!

We likely won’t be changing the way we do things at our clan, we will continue to max our bases and not rush or try to manipulate the outcome of a war by building bases strategically to try gain advantages or manipulating the roster (as I’m not going to tell our TH11/10s they can’t war any more than I will the TH6/7s). If you’re green you go in. We’ll face who we get and suck it up, even if we do perceive it to be unfair at the top at the moment (that “perceive” is for 2222’s benefit, as I can almost see him shaking his head at me as I speak lol;)) and be done with it lol :blush: Put it this way, I’ll look forward to the day when more of our TH12 and 13s are back in the game :D

I’ll take Ajax’s info re TH spread and optimum number of THson board, Puma’s ideas re friendlies and absorb the rest from a knowledge perspective, thank you all for your time. I’ll stop posting now, as conscious that some of the content is veering away from the original thread and I don’t want to hijack :D

Puma the idea of friendlies has been received warmly lol :smirk: I’ll PM you and maybe we could discuss when, how, what, who etc :blush:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Hey Joshsgrandad ... No, sorry, that’s an assumption you’ve made there ;) I was simply using it as an example of where I see having maxed bases will eventually be an advantage for us, as you are all telling me our bases are “too heavy” and indicating that by maxing we may be at a disadvantage with the MMA with our roster from a weighting point of view given how the majority of other clans are progressing. I’m aware there is no matching in CWL. Tbh we don’t have a “purpose” as such to our base builds other than to reach the end, generally in the optimum length of time, bringing up defence/offence evenly and yes, maxing our heroes and walls before moving up to the next level lol :D The only conscious decision we make is re the big ticket defences, they go down when the offence is upgraded enough to take the extra weight (ie generally one upgraded war army and heroes about half way through). From a learning and confidence point of view, I don’t want a newly upgraded TH11 to end up on top of the tree, which has happened in the past, they gotta learn how to walk before they run and my experience is they end up better attackers for it. It’s not so much of a factor now, as we all know each other pretty well, but when we started it really messed up their confidence having to drop to hit targets. I foster a culture of one safe, one stretch and we work as a team. I also don’t want to give in to options that try to manipulate the MMA for war, as I’m hoping it will all even out in future as our TH11s become 12s and TH12s become 13s and what we’ve been seeing is just a short frustrating hiccup in that, down to the introduction of a new TH :blush:

I might put Lioness in the next war I do with the TH11s at the top, for fun, to test your theory and see what she does to that line up XD It’ll be ironic if it improves it, given she’s one of the reviled engineered bases of the past lol :D The prospect of that is actually making me chortle!

We likely won’t be changing the way we do things at our clan, we will continue to max our bases and not rush or try to manipulate the outcome of a war by building bases strategically to try gain advantages or manipulating the roster (as I’m not going to tell our TH11/10s they can’t war any more than I will the TH6/7s). If you’re green you go in. We’ll face who we get and suck it up, even if we do perceive it to be unfair at the top at the moment (that “perceive” is for 2222’s benefit, as I can almost see him shaking his head at me as I speak lol;)) and be done with it lol :blush: Put it this way, I’ll look forward to the day when more of our TH12 and 13s are back in the game :D

I’ll take Ajax’s info re TH spread and optimum number of THson board, Puma’s ideas re friendlies and absorb the rest from a knowledge perspective, thank you all for your time. I’ll stop posting now, as conscious that some of the content is veering away from the original thread and I don’t want to hijack :D

Puma the idea of friendlies has been received warmly lol :smirk: I’ll PM you and maybe we could discuss when, how, what, who etc :blush:

---

I find it intriguing you mention about not wanting to manipulate the MM, I've always seen match making and base building as an art form in pursuit of better matches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MajorJohnson

I find it intriguing you mention about not wanting to manipulate the MM, I've always seen match making and base building as an art form in pursuit of better matches.

---

Lol, I understand, I know others that do too :blush: But I’m a simple soul ... just want to play the game ... and trust when I’m told by the powers that be at SC the MMA will find you fair matches if you play fair with it! Maybe that’s naive, I don’t know, but there is only so many hours in the day. The time I spend on this game is spent improving my attacking capabilities and learning new strategies, because, in theory, if you can be good at multiple strategies at multiple levels, the matches or the bases matter very little in the end, as you should be able to beat them all ;) Well that’s the holy grail any how :blush: I’m doing pretty well with it too mostly, but sometimes you have a wobble and that’s why I like this game because it keeps you humble, you don’t always win, you have to work for it. You can be on top of the world, 3* everything you look at one day and face down in the dirt picking mud out of your teeth clutching 1* in your grubby mits the next :D

I build most of my accounts in the same way, but it’s more about an aesthetically pleasing upgrade base lol than manipulating the matches. I have come to find it drives me nuts having heroes or walls left over at the end, so they will always get done so they aren’t left until the end. I want my favourite armies available asap, so they get priority on research and I always do resources and camps first. Resources because if you can have 18mil rather than 16mil from a rune it’s a bonus and camps because I want to be able to compete early at the new TH level. The hidden traps because they’re cheap, after you’ve spent all your money on the TH/army etc and then all the other defence/offence etc as I raid enough to stick them down or upgrade them. This all probably has some effect on the MMA, I am sure, but as long as I keep stuff fairly even throughout it shouldn’t be a problem I thought :blush: And that’s about as scientific as it gets :p

Oooops, I went and posted again lol ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joshsgrandad

An example of the "maxer" problem my latest spin..
They have a completely max 9 (70k).. I dont carry any bows at all..
They have bows on every one of theirs..

In order to get that 7v7 for top halls.. Their lower 2 TH9s are sitting below 8s.. A classic case of give and take..
They may beat me, due to that max base, dependant on war lay out..
But that base only got in due to the underweight ones lower down..

---

We got beat by the lot with the TH13 ... our TH11s just couldn’t get the two star on their TH13, mashed by his defences. Got the TH and 42% which considering was a good try and we had a couple of misses on their top two TH11s which we would normally 3* ... bit of frustration creeping in I think ... but hey ho! Tomorrow am trying a TH13 with a TH12 and stopping at TH9 to see what that does, hoping the two together will be better than just one �� Our TH13 is a beast, as is the 12, so we shall see ��

How did you fair? Hope you kicked some ... :smirk:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

We got beat by the lot with the TH13 ... our TH11s just couldn’t get the two star on their TH13, mashed by his defences. Got the TH and 42% which considering was a good try and we had a couple of misses on their top two TH11s which we would normally 3* ... bit of frustration creeping in I think ... but hey ho! Tomorrow am trying a TH13 with a TH12 and stopping at TH9 to see what that does, hoping the two together will be better than just one �� Our TH13 is a beast, as is the 12, so we shall see ��

How did you fair? Hope you kicked some ... :smirk:

---

Doesnt start for a couple of hours.. fell asleep after work and havent even loaded cc yet..
The war will happen.. I prefer the matching to the actual war anyway..
Usually find if I dont perfect, then theres a good chance I will lose.. My accounts run light to try out the MMA.. bows will start once my bottom end closes up.. then we can see how things work.

Havent looked at your matches.. But your lack of parable matching at the top goes against the theory I been building up whilst doing this project..
It seems to be happening regular now, so may likely be a pattern forming.. Just gotta put the finger on that pattern, then it is easy to change and fix..
BTW.. I dont work the roster looking for advantage (I used to at old clan), I just like looking at how it plays..
The wars themselves, I could care less about, as I said.. Although I like setting the task of trying to perfect.. Dont care if the oppo does likewise tho..

Life is about learning.. even in a game (what a boring old sod)

Update on that.. i actually missed the start of the war.. cant remember if I ever did a war before without loading the cc.. They will perfect due to that mistake.. I may struggle on their top 2 bases.. looking like grey or red.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Hey Joshsgrandad ... No, sorry, that’s an assumption you’ve made there ;) I was simply using it as an example of where I see having maxed bases will eventually be an advantage for us,

---

Advancing on offense and defense is an advantage in CWL so maxing out at each hall level ends up being a disadvantage (and is not the fastest way to max th13).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belinio

Lol, I understand, I know others that do too :blush: But I’m a simple soul ... just want to play the game ... and trust when I’m told by the powers that be at SC the MMA will find you fair matches if you play fair with it!

---

If by "fair" you mean very even then the best thing you can do is try to run a roster that is very common. That makes it easy on the matchmaker to find another clan that is the same. War sizes of 10 and 15 are easier since there are more clans. Hall spreads that are not huge and are fairly even without gaps helps. Avoiding things like having full-out totally max th11s helps too because not many clans have a bunch of those (they go to th12). Anything that isn't typical makes it harder on the matchmaker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

Advancing on offense and defense is an advantage in CWL so maxing out at each hall level ends up being a disadvantage (and is not the fastest way to max th13).

---

Hey 2222, I’m finding that I’m learning loads with my two accounts that are my donating “oddities”. My lil engineered TH11 is pretty much fully maxed on offence, just a few more levels on the King to do; troops, queen, GW are maxed. Also maxed are my one cannon and all the hidden traps. I am maxing her walls, I raid 4.5mil in gold and pink then put down a wall segment and max it. I have 69 left to go. I will then start adding the remaining defences, probably starting with ADs and blowers, one type at a time and max those. I’m giving her and my other TH11 (who was a max TH10) equal time, and am curious to see who will get maxed first lol :D A little competition with myself but no science behind it on picking times/order lol :D

My TH13 rusher I got to TH12 quite quickly by simply adding all the buildings, then upgrading TH, CC, spell/research labs, camps and one barrack. I then started upgrading the big ticket defences first, so she could look after herself, then do a round of all the defences in between. I have a max 5* TH and eagle, TH12 teslas, Infernos, ADs, TH11 xbows, L1 scattershots ... the rest of the defences are L10 or lower and walls upgrading to L9. She’s already a bit of a beast lol :D So building them both backwards, so to speak.

Both feel like they are progressing quicker than my main bases, although I feel that is likely an illusion :D We have one guy in our clan who will sit down at the start of a new TH upgrade and work out the swiftest route to max based on builder time, potions, books, hammers etc he has, write an upgrade list and then set to it. I haven’t got the patience for that, it’ll get done as and when :D

What would you say is the fastest route? I found I flew through TH10 after the interminable TH9, only to come to almost a grinding halt at TH11 lol :D I’ve been told TH12 is a bit of an uphill struggle too :facepalm: So if you have a magic formula please share :blush:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2222

If by "fair" you mean very even then the best thing you can do is try to run a roster that is very common. That makes it easy on the matchmaker to find another clan that is the same. War sizes of 10 and 15 are easier since there are more clans. Hall spreads that are not huge and are fairly even without gaps helps. Avoiding things like having full-out totally max th11s helps too because not many clans have a bunch of those (they go to th12). Anything that isn't typical makes it harder on the matchmaker.

---

Thank you, and yes that’s exactly what I mean lol, so agreed, and after everything you guys have all said I’m experimenting. So our spin tonight is going to be TH13 to TH9 to see what that brings us.

We don’t “sit” our THs at max, they get maxed and then move up ... sometimes when there’s a handful of walls left, one or two hero levels and/or couple of defence/offence upgrades left etc they then sort these as the TH/CC is upgrading. The majority of our TH12s are now TH13s (who are not warring much atm, as they either have limited time this time of year or are working on hero levels for CWL). Our TH12 from the last odd match has/had about 25 walls left and a couple of research upgrades (the new ones on the introduction of TH13) and he is then going up. None of our TH11s are maxed, they also have stuff left to do. A couple are nearer than the others to going up. Believe me, I want them going up too, as when Stark goes up we would have only one reasonably established TH12 left which isn’t great (and he’s making noises about not waiting to finish his walls) so they need to hustle. One of our higher TH11s has just hammered his TH to 12 and will finish off his walls and remaining defences while he’s beginning the heroes/camps etc at TH12. Another did the same at Christmas. One has a number of walls left to do and a few research/defence upgrades also, when he’s got the wall numbers lower he intends to go up too. The rest are either new or about halfway through but not near finished. Same with our TH10s and TH9s. Nobody in our clan stays maxed at a TH level, they all go up ... with the exception of some of my accounts, as I wanted one at each level for war cover/training newbies purposes. We just haven’t wanted or needed to recruit much recently, so I am now in the process of bringing my little ones up too, as will the others. If we can get everyone to TH9, from what you guys said, that should help and I won’t have to leave anyone out (so I am listening). Pretty much everyone in our clan also plays at a higher level in a couple of other clans, so they get it. One of those clans run wars with maxed TH12 and 13s only, the other TH13-11 and their matches are and have remained pretty even. Ours were too, until recently, hence my original post. We’ll get there :blush: