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Hello everyone!
Been a long time lurker, finally created an account today.
I'd like to find out why my position on war map changed. My base used to rank below a max TH8, now it's above that. I have only upgraded my Teslas and my warden to L16 from L11 from the last war. Idk why this has happened, can someone point out what changed? :confused:
I have attached a screenshot for reference
Attachment 214008
I don't think we ever have the full details on war weight. As far as announced war weight change, there wasn't any.
I could be wrong but I think what we know is that war weight consider both offense and defense. Having upgraded Teslas and 5 levels of GW is an improvement to both offense and defense. So that might be the reason why you move up in war map.
The thing is the Tesla upgrade hasn't finished yet and I went from mid th8 to just below a th9 with L2 xbows and all other structures built. Something doesn't add up
Yes overall war weight considers both offensive and defensive weights but placement in war map is based on defense alone.Heros also have defensive war weights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercfovia87
Warden also acts as a defense and hence have defensive war weight too.This explains why you moved up by upgrading 5 levels of warden.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
Now I remembered something about order in the map might not be in accordance to actual war weight. In theory your war weight might already be more/higher than TH8, but all the while you are placed lower than TH8. Looks like they also consider other factor that's not announced for the order in war. PS actual war weight can be seen from the available loot offer to your war opponentQuote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
I also have a question...
When there are at least 2 accounts with a complete full maxed th12, who is ranked first? The one who become the first one to be a max th12?
Believe it’s first letter of the name. A would be first to B on max TH. my old clan was that way and our top 3 was max 12.
No one knows, as you speak of the first letter, my clan has 7 maxed th12 bases in war and #1 starts with V and #2 with B and #3 with I... we suspect that it's who plays this game the longest and so on. Sometimes, the order changes... even tho they've maxed out the heroes, bases and troops.
I probably shouldn't have upgraded my warden that much then, should have left him at L10. Didn't realize heroes had that much of a effect on defensive weight
So now that I can't roll back the upgrades should I max out my defense? As in get those structures up to TH11 levels?
War weight that is used for ranking on the war map is very heavily weighted to dropping new defenses. Upgrading defenses does not move up the weighting as much. So basically once you add a defense you might as well max it out since most of the weight is from adding the new defense.
It depends on what you want to do with the base .... doesn't it... it does seem like you want to keep on having an unfair advantage in war, and in our clans that simply is a no-go - so if you were in our clans you'd be upgrading quite a bit of stuff for quite some time first...Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
I am not sure the war weight ranking on the map is completely accurate for the actual weight. The map is ordered by the loot value of the base at the time the map is set, so normally when the war search starts. Since the loot calculations involves some rounding and at higher levels it can take several upgrades to move up to the next loot level, it is hard to tell how bases are order at the same loot level. This is especially true at the higher loot levels since the higher the gold weight the more upgrades it takes to move up to the next visible level.
I have been doing some testing with a couple of mirror accounts to see if the ordering makes sense, and it hasn't for a couple of my recent tests. For example, one test was with 2 highly rushed mainly level 1 defense TH12 bases that had the same defenses upgrades on both accounts. On one account I upgraded Eagle from lvl 2 to 3 and on the other account I upgraded Barb King from lvl 2 to 3. When I did the war search the account with the Bark King upgrade appeared above the one with the Eagle upgrade.
Upgrading heroes probably has a fairly high impact on the weight just since there are so many levels to upgrade them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JusMe
I seldom war, I just found the change interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirNeoGeo
I don't think the gold storage method is accurate. The TH8 below me has higher amount in the storages, I do agree with what you said.
When have you noticed the change? What items have you upgraded since you were below a max 8? Can't answer your question without more details. Also, gold storage is accurate for calculating war weight. The reason the th8 has more gold in storages is because it probably has 1 less storage than the th11. War weight= total amount of gold in all storages (including th).
Teslas L8 -> L9 x4 (underway)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader100
Warden L11 -> L16 (complete)
Queen L20 -> L24 (complete)
Offensively jump spell to L2
Last war was about 10 days ago, I was still below a max TH8 at that point
Edit : maxed Teslas on another account, noticed no change in map position, still ranked the same (around max TH8)
Why are people still, deliberately, making their bases weaker than they should be, when CWL demands that it's as strong as possible?
Is normal Clan War considered more important than Clan War League?
/Affront
If you rarely war, why are you trying to keep your war weight low?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
Surely if you just farm then it’s best to have the strongest defence possible to protect your loot?!
Not really trying to keep it low, I don't farm a lot either. Just login sometimes and war occasionally
CWL runs for 8days of the months while Normal wars can run all through the month baring the two day sign up period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Affront
So It may as well be more important than CWL for some.
Not to forget there are people with alternate engineered accounts who have those accounts mainly for normal wars and their main accounts for CWL.
I’m ranked #1 in my clan, and I was one of the most recent players to max out my base. Considering I created my account in October 2012, I believe ranking among maxed players is based on who created their account first.Quote:
Originally Posted by steger
Well... yeah! I didn’t even know bases like yours was still being used. Are people still trying to engineer :facepalm:Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
If you have nothing worthwhile to contribute please refrain from commenting. The post is about defensive weight increase and its possible reason, let's keep it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
Thanks
Can you explain why you are worried about your war weight. Why does it matter if you are now above a TH8. Frankly the order is purely based on defensive weight. If all things match (max TH12s)...then it is based on which account is older. This weight has 0...absolutly nothing to do with your war weight for the clan when searching for a match (regular wars).Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
For the clan war weight, your actually weight is going to be close to a high TH10/Low Th11 (they increased the value of the TH and Herors...this was some time ago and the reason most people stopped trying to engineer).
The only thing I can think of is that your clan hits their mirrors...and you are trying to boost your individual 3 stars.
If I am wrong...please by all means explain all of the reasons you are concerned about your placement in the war lineup.
1. I'd like to find the reason for the weight increase so as to know how I could have offset it in a way that actually improves my defensive ability. Example - instead of getting my GW to L16 I could have upgraded a few point defenses
2. I'm assuming I weigh around a th10 (can't be th11 as I haven't upgraded or unlocked some troops and spells).
3. I'm currently at a disadvantage defensively because my mirror can easily 3 star my base.
4. I don't hit my mirrors. I hit TH10 and above. (Most enemy clans we face do try to hit their mirrors)
5. I'm only concerned about the defensive weight not the offensive weight
Fair enough answers. Here's my take on those based on ~7 yrs playing.
1. To improve defensive ability - build Xbows, Inferno Towers, EA. Frankly SC will not break down all the full details of how they calculate this as it will be used by people to try to "game" the system and get better matches. This was a problem since Clan Wars were started. Initially Maxing was the way, then they changed it, then defenseless was the way, then changed, engineering was the way, then changed, .5 was the way, changed to current.....probably the most balanced but they want you to put down the highest defenses when you first upgrade. If not they will match your clan with an "engineering" clan.
I've seen that first hand as I upgrade my 3rd account. When I first put the TH down...we get engineering clans until I drop the max def for that level...then its back to regular clans.
2. Low TH11 and High TH10 are roughly the same. Think numbers...like TH11 is 5000-6500 and TH10 is 4000-5500. So 5000-5500 can be either TH11 or TH10.
3. Possibly...if your Mirror is a TH8...and your CC has Max Troops and your Hero's are mid to high....A TH8/9 can't 3 star you. But if a TH10 hits you...sure they will get 3 stars if they are even slightly decent.
4. I appreciate this!
Adding 5 as it looks like this was added after my response.
5. Both of them are applied to calculate your war weight. Defensive weight only determines the order on the map.
Thanks for the input!
If I wanted to build them I would have, this isn't my main account. We don't run all Engg accounts only one or two to help fresh th9s and th10s fare better in war. TH8 seems like a decent spot to do so given the troop levels and skills the avg. TH8 possess.
I answered your question is that not contributing? Just because you didn’t like my response doesn’t mean I didn’t contribute.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
Why are you worried about weight anyways? Supercell has been very clear of their intentions on how they want us to play the game. The advantage was eliminated for a reason.
My two cent, for what it’s worth to you...
No one will ever have concrete proof of weights again. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a sliding scale now. So back to my original comment, Are people still trying to enginner aka weight watch? You’re wasting your time and effort imo.
I think teslas weight a lot, contrary to every guide from 2015 telling otherwise
I guess I misunderstood your first comment in that case. It felt like "yeah" *insert ridicule* to me. My apologiesQuote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
I made my intentions pretty clear already, it's a backup of sorts that I don't want turning into a disadvantage. As for SC's, I'm playing within the ToS
It's great that we won't have to worry about war weights again though.
We'll find out in about 2 days from now :smirk:Quote:
Originally Posted by eitiel
Did you multiple the total in one storage for the TH8 by 4 and yours by 5 (since you have one more storage than the TH8)?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
To be certain, a base like yours is not really giving your clan an advantage, in fact it's likely the opposite. The MM takes into account both offense and defense when matching clan to clan. Most of the clans with accounts like yours that we run into would be better off with stronger defenses rather than sandbagged accounts.
Yes, offense and defense count for war weight, but the map order OP is discussing would be defense only (even assuming that still accurately reflects defensive weight).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercfovia87
The map order definitely isn't reflective of total war weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercfovia87
See the link in my signature for a thread on that question.Quote:
Originally Posted by steger
Nope, but see the link in my signature.Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyPig
For some, yeah. I have accounts that do regular war but not CWL. There are several others in my clan that do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Affront
Are they still being used to generate lopsided matches? Does it work? Just wondering if that’s a thing players are still trying to do and if they’re having successful results.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
Then that is self-explanatory, those items bumped you up. Did you notice your war weight in your war prior? Max th8 is 55k, would likely be close to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
If done properly engineering is still very effective. But if not done properly it doesn't get you any advantage and can put you at disadvantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
Having a single engineered account achieves little to nothing.. Having an engineered roster, with the accounts to match, still gives the same results as before.. The outcome wont change, but the accounts that make up the roster will likely need to change as the game does.. Hence the reason engineered accounts are not perma camped.. But it is a niche game, so has no bearing on how most play the game.
OP.. As others stated, the map order is by defence only..
To check this weight, you need to either do a friendly challenge, or check it on the war map.. Count how much gold is offered in the storage, then count how many gold storage you have.. a th11 should have 4 of them, then add an extra for the town hall= 5..
So the value will be the gold amount multiplied by 5.. If you then do the same with that th8, remembering it has one less storage (multiply by 4), you will find that the total is less than yours..
Please note, it needs to be friendly challenge or war map.. The farming base shows a different (your current) amount.
War weight is different, as others have also pointed out.. Your actual weight will be far higher than your defensive weight, since you are grossly off heavy, so unless you war with some big bases, you need to be hitting the top of the map for that account to be pulling its weight. You can get an idea of the offensive weight by looking at recommended target on an unhit war map, although it is limited by whats opposite, so not too accurate IMO.
You rightly said that you dont hit mirrors, which is just as well, because the draw is done using the total weight of the whole roster..
This leads many to wrongly think they are gaining an advantage.. in reality, that lop sided offensive weight is being added towards the spin result, so clan mates end up hitting a harder base than they otherwise would, unless that offensively rushed or engineered base is hitting at its offensive power eg higher up the map.
My thoughts on upgrading.. I believe you should start a new hall slightly on the offensive heavy side.. After all, you get two attacks for only one defence.. If you want good draws, stay away from the big defences till the hall is well established.. Point defence still gives good value for money.. But I usually upgrade existing before dropping new, since most weight is gained with the initial drop.. And once dropped max it.. That allows it to do its job properly, without adding a ton of weight extra.
I am not in any way having a go at you.. I still love the engineering, even tho its not as common as before, and I dont have manicured accounts myself, but simply do selective upgrades until I hit max for hall.
Agreed, but would add there is still some benefit to not dropping huge defenses immediately, while on the other hand in CWL it would be best to drop them right away. So, there is a conflict there, even for clans that aren't fully engineering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vader100
Fully agree 2222.. I think the first decision is whether the clan/account is wanting to invest mainly in cwl or regular war..Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
As you say the benefits are typically complete opposites, so far as optimal build is concerned (for those clans that dont war at heavyweight).
Loving the responses!
Here a little background and conclusions I came to when I first started this account. I have always had the same number of defences as in the orig post.
Def weight - mid th8
Offense - max loons + hound + L5 heroes(all) + th10 camps
Recommend target was always a th9, probably the best balanced I've ever been. Finding a clan was really difficult, nobody understood my reasoning and no proper clan was willing to accept my base. So, I left the game for 2 years
Def weight - was previously 10900 * 5 = 54500, currently it's 55k
Offense - previous + L5 miners + edrags L2 + L6 freeze + 20/20/11
Recommend target is mostly a high TH10, base is lopsided, but I had to do this so that I could find a clan
Advantage - currently there is none, had a bit of a edge when I weighed around a th7max - th8mid
War matchups - okish currently, when I'm in the war then one TH10 is occasionally up against a fresh th11 with EA.We do have another Engg account with max th11 offense so maybe it's not just my base causing the mismatch(if that can be called one)
Def weight was 54.5k before and is currently at 55k, I wanted to know the reason behind this. Will find out for sure by the next war
It is never acceptable to tell people not to comment, unless they are actually breaching ng forum rules, which he certainly wasn't. This is a discussion forum, and all views within those rules are valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
OK mate.. Offensively lop sided engineering, which is what you are doing, is only good for regular war, and even then, it is only good if you are a proficient attacker, since that weight will cripple your top guys otherwise.. More so if there is a max offence also included..Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
I wont get personal btw mate.. Just make my observations and beliefs.
Your hall level and offence puzzles me a little.. The hall itself carries no weight, until you hit 12, when the giga carries massive weight from the start.
It appears you have switched to the edrags for your go to.. I would be maxing my camps, spell factories, and lab..
Then I would be working on nothing but the edrag and loons (done), and the freeze and rage (freeze done).
They are the only tools you need for spamming your eddies, so nothing else need be done, if you wish to minimise the account weight (I use wrecker filled with loons btw, and begin the attack with suicide heroes to help create a funnel).
If your wish is to learn how to manicure your base, then read what others are doing, and make friends with the better optimisers.. They carry a wealth of knowledge.. I learned so much from them.
You will, however, be sworn to secrecy once they let you thru their doors lol.. But they are great, friendly guys.
Fun is where you find it mate.. Dont worry too much about what path the game takes you down, just enjoy it.. And who cares if you jumped above that max 8. You dont hit mirrors, nor does your offence weight warrant being below him in the first place. Good luck
PS.. If your clan enjoys cwl more than regular spin, get your defences down, biggest first.. CWL is all about size, and bigger is better.
So wait...you have lv5 miners, lv2 edrags, lv6 freeze and 20/20/11 heros. (Probably a lv7 cc and lv9 camps too). You say you mostly match against th10’s and you don’t think you have an advantage?!Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
My goodness man, how bad of an attacker are you? The logic of these engineers is astounding:facepalm:
I have not read all comments, I am sure others have already mentioned what you were asking, from my observations I can say yes, defensive heroes are weighted heavily and that's why you're ranking up in war map. Next you asked whether to up your defences or not, I will suggest you to up your defences one by one. First upgrade whatever is added to the max level possible in your townhall. Then start adding point defences like archer tower, cannon, air def etc and up them to max level. Once point defences are done add wiz tower, mortar etc and up them to max. By the time you complete these upgrades th13 will be out and later at that stage you decide whether to add IT and EA or not.
I had a base like yours with 30/30/20 heroes and it was a saviour in many wars before 2017 update. But after the update I felt like it was just making the war unnecessarily difficult for us by pulling enemies of similar build (if not better build). Haven't used it in a while. It all upon your war roaster though. If you have some rushed bases (high def. weight but low off. weight) in your team, I can surely see the importance of a base like yours. If you are a team player build your base according to your team. Remember whatever you do, always maintain a good balance between your off and def weight (as a team!).
Your stance on maxing being the "fair play" way is legendary dayone, for those that follow the threads..Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
He is a casual player, not an engineer..
How do I know?.. He came to ask how his account has pushed above a max 8, after upgrading his heroes by a few levels..
An engineer would know what he was upgrading, and why..
It is a pity you had to try and shame him over his attacking prowess.. Especially since he came simply to ask how defenses
match up on the war map..
His background addition was simply in response to what others had posted, in order for them to try and assist with his education..
But at least you got your dig in.. Good for you mate.
@josh, I appreciate your insights :thumbsup:
@dayone, I said recommended target is TH10, I can hit fresh th11s just fine. Not everyone trying to optimize their setup is compensating for lack of skill by brute force. Read my previous post - advantage is marginal at best if at all
@Bishalb1, yes I have spent most of my time in those kinda clans, premmies, that should explain my offense side of things. As for progression, I already have a TH11 main, I don't like TH12 at all and haven't played that for quite a while.
Most of the stuff I know is by trial and error, I rushed with a good offense before I knew these forums existed. Found Morgauth's guide but I already came to similar conclusions. Not bragging just explaining. As for war weight all I found was those numbers online. All I'm trying is, to find how the game works
We all come here looking for answers to our problems mate.. Some of us like what we find, so stick around..Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
All the guys and gals are great people.. every one of them.. some of us are a little brash, and set in our beliefs, but dont take comments too seriously.
To be fair, I came to the forums during the height of the lop sided engineering farce.. not one of SC's better ideas, when they decided to only use defensive weight in the MMA..
That lopsiding was ridiculously strong, so I came here for answers.. The guys were real gentle with the new numpty in town when I began showing my ignorance, so I stayed to try and learn.. I never made a lop sider myself.. But each to their own. as they say
Warden actually has quite a bit of defense weight, actually more than his worth :sQuote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
I haven't noticed any change in war weights in quite some time, I would think SC hasn't changed anything since the balance has been good and the mismatch thread is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJohnson
Here is a guy to have on your friends list RandomSpawn.. He knows his stuff, when it comes to your problems.
I saw the picture of his base in his original post, thats an engineered base plain and simple. He might be a casual engineer, but a casual engineer is still an engineer.Quote:
Originally Posted by joshsgrandad
Let me explain my thinking...he has a couple max th11 war troops, 20/20 heros including a lv11 warden. He goes on to say his ‘recommended’ is usually a high th10. Then he says he has no advantage. I’m assuming he means he has no advantage over that th10. Since even a decent th11, with max war troops and mid level heros, especially a lv11 warden, extra troop space, spells and the siege, should be able to absolutely crush even a well designed th10, my natural thinking is that OP must be a terrible attacker...hence the engineering, hence my question.
You guys make it sound like engineering is some sort of mystical feat that you need years of studying and a PhD to wrap your head around it. I got news guys, it’s not rocket science. Don’t build your defences, and if you already did, don’t upgrade them. Also don’t upgrade troops you don’t use. Its really not that complicated.
[QUOTE=RandomSpawn;12379541]@josh, I appreciate your insights :thumbsup:
@dayone, I said recommended target is TH10, I can hit fresh th11s just fine. Not everyone trying to optimize their setup is compensating for lack of skill by brute force. Read my previous post - advantage is marginal at best if at all
@Bishalb1, yes I have spent most of my time in those kinda clans, premmies, that should explain my offense side of things. As for progression, I already have a TH11 main, I don't like TH12 at all and haven't played that for quite a while.
Most of the stuff I know is by trial and error, I rushed with a good offense before I knew these forums existed. Found Morgauth's guide but I already came to similar conclusions. Not bragging just explaining. As for war weight all I found was those numbers online. All I'm trying is, to find how the game works[/QUOTE
So “not everyone trying to optimize their setup is compensating for lack of skill by brute force” eh? So what’s the point then?
If the “advantage is marginal at best, if at all” like you say, if that’s really truly true, then why do it?
You enjoy seeing your base 3 starred every time you log in, you enjoy losing a ton of resources every defence? I don’t get it. It makes no sense to do if you aren’t getting some kind of advantage out of it.
Point blank, engineering still (unfortunately) exists to help give your clan an advantage by getting an easier match up in war. Engineering has no place in farming, pushing or cwl. It exists purely to give your clan an advantage in normal wars and if you supposedly aren’t getting that advantage, then I ask again, whats the point?
[QUOTE=dayone;12379874]Not everyone here wants to have two lookalike shirts in their closet. Same is with OP. He already has a th11 main account, all he wants is a different looking secondary account that isn't disadvantageous in war. Simple!Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
[QUOTE=dayone;12379874]Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
1. Not ranking high is advantageous as I don't have the burden of doing perfect attacks on my mirror or higher if I was a conventional TH11 i.e. reduced responsibility. @Bishalb1 has a good point, bases like these are rare. Advantage against a fresh TH11 that I usually have to hit is none, it's not my fault that your(opponent) defense is weak
2. As for loot loss I don't sit on on, use it as it comes
3. Bases like these are advantageous in farming, as well as pushing and in lower leagues of CWL too. I spent total of 6-7 months total on this account.
The weight increase was due to warden :straightface:
Thanks for the recommendation @joshsgrandad, hey there Major! :) Yup, warden weighs a little too much but that life aura provides the much needed extra HP against those L5 infernoes and L10(?)ADs
[QUOTE=dayone;12379874]This, I totally agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
The only clan I visit to do war, other than my own, runs engineered accounts in an engineered roster.. None of their wars have ever been close.
I dont manicure my accounts per se, although I optimise (in my view) the build, from new hall up to maxed state.
As dayone says, there is no reason for it, other than gaining spin advantage in regular war (or a feeling of safely being placed lower down the roster).
So far as that roster war day placement, that would only protect the player in a casual, non clash educated clan..
Anyone that knows how the spin works, would know that the map position has no relevance to the actual war weight they bring to the table..
Therefore, that high offence account would be expected to be hitting far higher up the map, and judged according to attack proficiency at that level.
PS..RandomSpawn.. I agree it is beneficial to fast track a mini, especially for cwl, since it is unweighted, and offence over defence is optimal in a system whereby gaining stars is paramount.
But, you worried about that account moving up the map in regular war.. That shows you are probably attempting to achieve a particular goal..
If its fast track, then the defences should be growing too.. And if its for cwl, the bigger/heavier defences should be dropping first mate.
As for farming.. There is no benefit whatsoever.. Indeed, it is a disadvantage, since multiplayer uses your hall level as the predominant matching factor.
I advise you to hang around forums, do some reading, and have fun.. Your increased knowledge, gained from reading the posts, can only serve to enhance your playing experience..
And if, indeed, you are closet engineering, then follow your chosen path openly..
The maxer/engi war ended some time ago lol.
How in the world is having only 1 air defense an advantage? The trade off isn’t what it used to be imo. You may gain the advantage slightly offensively but you’re losing every bit of it on defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishalb1
They're a dime a dozen. We’re not talking about the mythical Yeti. We’re talking about a half built account here. Unusual, sure! Rare, absolutely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
Btw, it is your fault because you’re intentionally lowering your weight to pull in those weak defenses.
Most players attack that base using drags + rage, have seen quite a few fails (max mines). More ADs would increase the chance of them hitting that base with a ground attack which can be harder to defend againstQuote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
[QUOTE=joshsgrandad;12380187]Yes, I had a goal,a TH8 def weight and the ability to 3 whatever I pull (TH10/new TH11). I surpassed that and I don't have a proper plan for TH9 since the game has changed so much. As far as engineering my base is concerned I'd like to do that properly but I lack the knowledge to do so. Whatever I have learned till now seems inadequate to meQuote:
Originally Posted by dayone
Those attacks against your base say more about the opposition you draw, rather than the base itself tho mate..Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
I see the same when I spin with my mini's in the clan I do the one man with..
I use nothing bigger than a 9, and sort the roster simply to do perfects.. That is the way I choose to relax.. Cup cake by another name..
I dont care what the oppo does, but if I perfect, that makes the line in the log either green or grey..
But, thing is, the roster is set to draw noob or casuals.. And noob or casuals would hit your base with those drags, same as they do with mine (although mine arent lop sided)..
A more proficient clan would send someone in to do a proper job..
It is what it is mate.. The game is there to be enjoyed..
I work hard, so play soft..
Some of the guys that post are top notch war players.. Kudos to them.. But you wont get a pat on the back from them mate lol.
As for the engineering.. You would need to join a clan that does engineering.. A single account may simply screw up the search.
Dont be surprised tho, if that clan tells you to upgrade some defences tho.. It is above my knowledge, but an 8.11 (th8 def/th11 off), may not be ideal with the current MMA.
It isnt simply weight/weight anymore.. SC are learning how to give fair match ups (on paper) now.
Our roster usually has 3-4 max TH12s at top, 5 mid max TH11s, 6ish TH10(3 maxed), some mid TH9s, me, 2 TH8.
I'm not looking for a pat on the back, I'm looking to learn the game. If they feel like I have some kinda unjust advantage (not really true) then so be it. I need knowledge not respect and at the end of the day I do enjoy the way I play
Major Johnson would be the one in this thread I advise you to seek out. Ripple is no longer on the forums, he would be another one to seek out if you ever see him posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
Imo, you’re wasting your time, engineering isn’t as efficient as it once was. Yeah you can rack up a win streak doing it but you have to keep in mind you’re only playing half the game now since CWL has been implemented. If that floats your boat, seek out those I mentioned.
[QUOTE=RandomSpawn;12380140]1. No comment. My answer to that would probably get me a warning from the mods.Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
2. Of course you spend as much loot as you can before logging off. You cant spend it all though and you lose much more than you would if you weren’t engineered.
3. Now you’re either lying to my face or you truly don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. I hope its the latter because lying isn’t cool. There is no advantage, absolutely none when it comes to farming if you’re engineered. How could there be, weight isn’t a factor when farming. While farming below champs league you’re presented with bases roughly one town hall level below you, your equal and bases one town hall level above you. There are times for example when a th10 will see a th8 or a th12 though. There literally could not be any advantage to being engineered while farming. And of course you put yourself at a major disadvantage when you have to go on defence.
The same is true for pushing. There is no weight involved. Like I said above, you’re presented with bases roughly one level below you, your equal level and one level above you. If you’re pushing in champs or above, its a free for all. You’re presented with any base of any level. Its just the way the system works man, theres no advantage to being engineered while pushing. And again, you’re putting yourself at a huge disadvantage if you’re pushing while engineered, especially in champs or above. You’ll be 3 stared like 99.9% of the time on defence. Sure you can get those trophies back in an attack or two, but the whole point of pushing is to gain as much on offence and lose as little on defence as possible.
I’m not an expert on CWL. I think the system is terrible and my clan dosent take it seriously at all. Sure the medals are nice but I’ve been playing almost 7 years without them so who cares. I see CWL as practice for normal wars more than anything else. That being said, I know there’s no matchmaking in cwl like there is in traditional wars and only having 1 attack negates the point of being engineered. Correct me if I’m wrong but the whole point of engineering is to be able to get 6 stars while only possibly giving up 3, right? So if you only have one attack, whats the point? Wouldn’t it be better to have defences and try to defend? With no matchmaking you’ll be matched against the same clans as you would be anyway only with a better chance to win.
Jeez, this was way longer than intended. I need more coffee.
Really? The advantage are in relation to the time frame, same as rushing. I just combined them both so that I could war without much drawbacks
1. Advantage in farming - better troops = efficient farming (same as rushing). Quite a few people trophy drop on my village and for reference I have my gold storages on the corners of my village
2. CWL - better offense allows me to hit higher but yes CWL rewards progression which is a major drawback for me. In the last CWL I saw 3 failed attacks on my base (2 star 75-80%)
3. Engineering isn't really effective anymore? Yes,sort of. I'm trying to save this base as a memento. Might turn this account to a donation account later
1. What is the relation between having better troops and being engineered? You could have all your defences built and have exactly the same level of troops. What does people dropping trophies on your base have to do with being engineered? I’m a max th12 in legend and people occasionally drop trophies on my base too, so what? What does that have to do with what we’re talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
2. You could have the exact same offence as you do now AND have your defences built and it would make no difference in CWL since there is no weight based matchmaking.
3. Don’t know and I don’t care. I just think it’s a cowardly way to play. Think of your clash brothers and sisters.
In conclusion, engineering gives you no advantage whatsoever in farming, pushing or cwl...in fact it actually hurts you. It exists for one reason and one reason only, to try and get an advantage in normal wars by (hopefully) being able to get more stars than you give up. Thats it. Period, end of story.
Reading this little back and forth over engineering really brings back memories. Lol. The good old days. Thank goodness SC has given us a new topic to argue about with the last update. Forum was starting to become dull.
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Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
Remember that you are not "pulling" a specific base opposite you. In traditional war your clan matches the other clan at the clan level. It's likely that with your sandbagged account in wars you are getting a heavier top end than you otherwise would. This gets watered down, however, when you start pulling in TH12 bases as they are so heavy (you said you're running with 4 12s). Therefore one single account like yours probably doesn't have much negative effect on the overall matchup. Put it in with TH11 and down wars though and you would see what I am talking about.
I totally agree. Most of the highly successful engineering clans have already gave up engineering or have quitted already. This game is not war centric anymore. You have clan games and cwl as well. The challenge is to create a base which is useful in all three.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
I am afraid you have missed my previous reply. I clearly suggested him to add defenses. But at the same time I also wanted op to have a base that favours his own gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishalb1
Well, what's more cowardly is to show our eagle to a th9 who successfully 2 stared our base but sadly our horrible troop vomits give us a three. That's cwl. RIP my brothers and sisters!Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
I dont see any defensive war weight change in the last 1 year, but there were some offensive weight changeQuote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
best reasoning for engineers so far, I worked hard so i play soft, exactly my reason, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by joshsgrandad
Engineering done properly is even stronger now then before, since the stricter MM algorithm give more predictable opponentQuote:
Originally Posted by Bigdome757
[QUOTE=dayone;12379874]He is thinking he got a marginal advantage while most of the time I can say he is getting disadvantage, that he is not aware of, in a form of tougher opponent somewhere in their roster.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
With 4 max th12 and 5mid-max th11, his base has almost no advantage to have
Well even if his recommended is a TH10, there is a degree of TH matching that goes on and a base like that can often add to the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
It is a bit more complicated than you think but I would agree that OP would be more of a casual engineer, the real engineers are ace attackers with perfect weight, and never miss.
In my time on the forums I've come to learn that people will try to judge you for playing the game so I will play the game the way I want to, and do it loud and proud and stuff other peoples opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomSpawn
I am an engineer and I play to win.
I have many war focused accounts and include most in CWL but it is a whole different beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
For farming, you are assuming that you have only 1 attack per day? anything you lose on defense is meaningless and Crystal 3, or low trophies (sub 600) are the best spots at TH11. I can farm millions per day but only lose a bit on defense.
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Correct me if I’m wrong but the whole point of engineering is to be able to get 6 stars while only possibly giving up 3, right?
No this is inaccurate, the post was long with alot of misguided information :p
Yes I would agree, he should be in a smaller roster where he can have more of an impact. One base does not make a roster :SQuote:
Originally Posted by samratulangi
Doesn't the smaller roster risk having an impact in the wrong direction though?Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJohnson
I'd agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJohnson
As always, the breakdown of your full war roster as a whole will often decide the value of any engineered bases, whether micro engineered or casually offensively lopsided.
Certainly, a roster full of big TH12's is not a good place to start throwing in offensively lopsided TH11s such as the OP's base. It's just a bad strategy within the current MM.
Just this weekend, we matched a clan with a 50/50/20 TH11 (No Eagle) and 40/40 TH10 (No Infernos), even though they had plenty of TH12s up top. :saywhat: Crazy!
As previously mentioned, while there is still some room for educated engineers to thrive, I'd suggest 99% of players hoping to gain a MM advantage are ... ahem...kidding themselves at best!:)
This is exactly what I was saying. It appears he is getting the advantage but in reality it’s an uphill battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by samratulangi
There is little to no disadvantage in farming for an engineer. That's a misconception. Strong defence will make weak farmers skip your base until a strong attacker comes by and flattens it. The extra loss because of little defence is negligible.
Although the advantage is less to engineer nowadays it is still there in normal wars. Fine if he gives away an easy defence to a TH8, if he is able to crack 2 TH11 in the top of the roster giving his clanmates some ease. But a heavily engineered base will draw engineered bases at the opponent also which could even out the "advantage".
When it comes down to the new MMA I strongly believe in what someone already said it in this thread. Prioritize your offenses when arriving at a new townhall and wait with placing new defences until your offense strength is capable of handling those defences.
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Originally Posted by Thegreatpuma
Yes you are right, I meant more of a lower TH roster. Sam is right when he is saying that in their current lineup OP's base isnegligible with such a large top.
Yeah mate, think everybody is on the same page, once the roster breakdown became apparent.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
With that top end, the full 10 or early 11 that he "matches" would be a better fit.
His "personal" advantage is there, but at the detriment of the full bases, to some degree..
But if he were to find someone to accommodate his account within their engineered ranks, there is a lot of fun to be had, if he wishes to try that route.
Even as things stand, so long as his clan mates dont mind, he can keep his legacy base, safe in the knowledge that the war wont be hinging on his attacks.. The 2 attack rule goes some way in helping here, since the big boys above him can cover most of the oppo roster.
Lop siding was at its peak during the wrongly weighted MMA, and whilst 11 was the top hall..
Since the release of 12, coupled with the improved MMA, and build all policy, the effect has been vastly reduced..
And soon we will have TH13.. Two levels above a legacy bases limit.
A quick word on the current success of (good) engineered accounts/rosters..
When I spin, I use maxer type accounts, but alter the roster.. The draw is sufficiently easy to clear the map, except for 1 war (which I lost), but it draws similar rosters to myself.. I am choosing the battle ground, but its purely experience that dictates the win or draw (mainly on the part of the opposition)..
When I take an account over to the engi clan, I could almost close my eyes to do the attack there.. Keep in mind, they are experts at the engi game, but the spin results are chalk and cheese, compared to my normal war spins.. There isnt much that is random about their "random spins".. And they have a max 12 as anchor.. Amazing grasp of the game dynamics, as well as being top notch attackers.
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Originally Posted by joshsgrandad
I really like that you, Puma and Viking came over to our new experimental clan, it has been a lot of fun. I thought it was funny you were worrying about doing enough Clan Games points cause I'm used to doing a lot of points (it's easy for me) and don't really look at, or care how many points everyone else does. When you have a lot of good players, and good bases, all you need to worry about is people managing their in/out and be star focused, the rest is easy.
I've been told I have some of the best bases in game and I'm pretty sure I could war as a solo clan but that would be a bit boring :(
The only real disadvantage to an engi base is if you were trying to get to legends with it, loot is not really an issue on any of mine except a couple that are TH11 with no defenses, and no collectors (collectors have weight too). When defense is that low you can get hit 30 times a day and take no shield.
For CWL advantage it depends, initial seeding is only based on defense weight but if you have a legacy account, you would generally work on it slowly so as not to ruin it. Once in a league there is no weighting so it's not much different than a regular base, I'd sometimes throw a 1-cannon beast in Gold clans just to help out but usually just leave them out since they already have lots of medals and I'm not actively working on them right now.
Misguided information?! Enlighten me then Major. Explain to me how being engineered helps in farming and especially pushing when the weight of your base is essentially meaningless. Explain to me what the point of engineering your base is if it dosent just boil down to getting more stars than you give up.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJohnson
Also you said above ‘engineering is a bit more complicated than I think’. I could not disagree more. You guys seem to think this is rocket science when its more akin to grade 1 math. Not building defences, not upgrading troops will always be easier than building and upgrading them.
I also play to win. Being leader of a 715-183-8 clan, I think I’ve proved that. I just want to win fairly. Theres no point in beating up children and declaring yourself heavyweight champion of the world.
“Real engineers are ace attackers with perfect weight and never miss”. Gee, I sure hope so. If they match against a maxer well they probably have their scientifically selected maxed out war troop, and if they match against other engineers, even better. No defences or fewer defences always makes the attack easier, lol.
Why would I be concerned with pushing? I have my fully maxed TH12 if I want to push legends, and farming is only a means to an end and you can do that regardless of what a base looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
Isn't all war about scoring more stars than you give up? Seems like you view engineering like it were 2016 though if it were as easy to do as you say then you would have many people doing it.
Alot of times it's mostly about not being the standard quo of bases, I don't really use my 1 cannon bases in war but I have them if I want to use them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
Attachment 214024
I usually have around 2m gold, 1m elixir and 30k DE. When I need to upgrade something I farm the resources back to back so that I don't have to sit on high loot in storages. As for why Engg is helpful in farming, it's the same as rushing better troops allow you to farm better at higher THs where loot is plenty. Someone higher up will always wreck your base
You don't really have to defend your loot, just have to out-farm your opponents
Oh boy how I missed these discussions on the forums.
These maxers getting frustrated their all maxed out bases getting wrecked by engineers who are at the bottom of the roster and just outsmarted them. Then come to the forums complaining it isn't fair, whining the game is ruined, spreading false information about engineering. Just because they think the way they play the game is the only right way and everybody should play it their way.
Sin of Dusk always prepared to add some fuel to the discussion to explain to them one more time maxing is the dumbest way to upgrade your base.
I don't want engineering back, but this thread is making me sentimental. Please keep it going.
Mate.. I wasnt worrying about maxing clan games, I simply want to keep my place in the squad..Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJohnson
I cant get a day off work for love nor money at the moment, and competition for places is fierce over there lol.
PS.. I learned to spot Vikings accounts, but Puma is there too?
All the better.. See ya after cwl.
Are you just trying to causes a debate? I’ve not seen one person in this thread complain about being matched up with engineers. Maxed bases will pull in other maxed bases. Maxed players aren't facing engineers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandurang
What I do see in this thread is a few maxed players and even the engineers trying to tell OP his base isn’t as effective as he/she thinks. As others have said it’s probably damaging to his roster.
The food is under the bridge...
Agree with the matching.. And the advice..Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
The MM is in a great place right now, so the high offence is likely to simply help pull in higher offence..
If he wants to try the engi route, and he can hit with his base, there are plenty that will accommodate him tho..
Leave his maxer with the current clan, and spread his wings with the off rusher.. All is good.
You obviously haven't actually read it properly, since it doesn't meet an5 of those criteria.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandurang
Match making does seem to be in a pretty good place. When we run a heavy lineup, we generally finish within a couple stars of the opponent depending on who gets more 3 stars on th12's. When we throw everybody in, either we have th9's and below with nothing they can attack and we win easily because we have a huge advantage up top or they have more max 12's and more 12's overall and it just comes down to how well we attack and how many attacks they waste on edrag spam.Quote:
Originally Posted by joshsgrandad
You always have a spot, yeah Puma is JacobQuote:
Originally Posted by joshsgrandad
Maxxing isn't the worst route to go, one of our longest members made fully max bases for every TH (including walls, troops, heroes) and wars with his max TH12 in a different all TH12 clan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandurang
We got 3 clans going now, our feeder clan is the more max style with a lot of big TH12's but still working on getting the roster into a better place.
Maxxer vs engineer grow tiresome though I do appreciate that there is room to create more favorable matches and will likely still continue going into TH13.
Lol, not you Major, the OP. They said on like page 2 or 3 that having an engineered base gives them an advantage in farming and pushing. I think they mentioned cwl too, but I don’t care enough to go back and check. I wrote a few posts saying no, that’s complete nonsense and explained why that’s nonsense. They wrote back but didn’t explain how...then you came on.Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJohnson
So I’m wondering if you can explain to me how having and engineered base helps in farming and pushing. Or am I right that OP dosent have a clue what they’re talking about?
Engineering your base is easy to do, extremely easy. I can only speak for myself here, and I don’t engineer because I don’t have that kind of ‘mentality’. I want to win, but winning fairly is just as important. I’d rather lose fairly than engineer a win.
Pushing:Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
Base A: a th7 def base with 30/30/20 heroes and level 2 electro( or bowithch or whatever)
Base B: a maxed th9 base.
Both bases can be built investing "almost same" amount of play hours. But when it comes to pushing base A will have advantage over base B (why?).
Farming:
It totally depends on how active you are and how your base is. If base A is strong enough to get a shield each time you get attacked, all you need is to make an extra raid than base B to compensate your loss in def. But if base A is weak enough and cannot even earn a shield all he has to
do is to farm at one sitting and spend the earnings right away.
I hope I could clear your doubts a bit. The key point here is to notice that the time taken to build both bases were the same.
To know more, there is an old thread explaining how to rush, with a simple search you should be able to find it.
it is a bit sloppy to simply say "engineering" gives an advantage in farming and CWL. It is true, however, there can be an advantage in farming (maxing as fast as possible) and CWL by strategically rushing. It is harder to strategically rush as much now as in the old days before we were required to build everything before upgrading the hall. It might be easier to stated it the opposite way: fully maxing every hall is definitely not the fastest way to reach full max th12 nor is it the best for CWL.Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
Farming is neither harder or easier, loot is better at Crystal and lower than in higher leagues and unless you have absolutely no defense, you will take a shield always. I think for pushing he means that he has enough offense to push where he wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by dayone
I've been to a clan that didn't like me having engineered bases, they told me that SC was going to ban them, they also didn't take rushed bases with bad weight. Still engineering but one is drawing a line at their own feet.
Of course they wouldnt like you.. "Fair play" is limited to max 12.. the elite players buzzword(s).Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorJohnson
To be fair, dayone made a lot of sense with his posts, as he often does.. So much so that he earned rep..
As for OP (RandomSpin), he came with a problem, which I think got explained.. But more importantly, he joined the ranks of community forum.. Now he has time on his side to read, post, and learn.. We all start somewhere, and for our own reasons..
Mine was to gripe about engineers.. Funny how life can work in twists and turns..
Absolute gold!XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Mandurang
You just missed the small detail about members from the clan from the red planet (you know, the greatest engineered clan of all time!), coming to the forum and quite rightly laughing at the copy and paste casual engineers with 'at the bottom' bases, claiming they are outsmarting everybody! XD
Most educated maxers, myself included, could have built those 'bottom of the roster' bases quite easily, but just didn't want to.
Feeling sentimental too, remembering old forum members 'explaining' as fact, that rushing was always the best way to progress your base, regardless of play style or activity!
Good times!:heart:
"Defenceless base": watch out for the canon!Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaTroll
Although warweights are secret and the trustworthy of sources is always good for debate most agree the placement of especially heavy weighted defences (x-bow, inferno, EA) brings in more weight then upgrading the already placed ones.
For the lower defences (as canons) the extra weight of placing it on your base total warweight is neglictable, but let's assume each level extra brings in the same amount of weight. This would mean upgrading one new canon to lvl6 which can be done in a couple of days with little resources needed will bring the same amount of warweight as upgrading 6 canons from lvl 14 to 15 which will take weeks and a lot more resources. But as you say the lvl15 canons sort more effect in defence then the extra canon of lvl6. Take this in to account on all defences and it adds up. Keeping your new th11 beneath the existing th11 in your roster until you have your offensive power maxed, but still give your opponents a hard time if they attack you as their mirror.
I still like this path of upgrading, which gives players who start at a new townhall level some extra time to get used to the new defensive power of their opponents as they don't move up the roster to quick.
Oh I definitely remember the ones who claimed they didn't win because of engineering but mainly because of the use of martian mindpower. That was fun too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrags