Wasted Dark elixir

Well i was thinking in the walls recently and the way we use to upgrade it. We can do it with gold and elixir but not with dark elixir. In my case i had the heroes at max level for my town Hall and my dark elixir troops the same but i doesnt want to upgrade the Th until i had my base at max with fully upgrade walls. But i started to loose the dark elixir i won because rigth now i doesnt have a way to use it. So if you could use your dark elixir to upgrade the walls and not only gold or elixir i think that like in my case you could upgrade the Th at full without losing the resources or needing to upgrade without having everything at max level only to not lose the dark elixir

Please let us start spending DE on walls, recently maxed out heros now I cant hold anymore. Storage, treasury, collectors all are constantly filled and nothing else to spend it on.

I used to worry about this but soon you’ll release if you don’t need it you don’t need to worry about it. Not convinced de in walls is a good idea there will be none left in the game to steal

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Originally Posted by Spartacus1981

Please let us start spending DE on walls, recently maxed out heros now I cant hold anymore. Storage, treasury, collectors all are constantly filled and nothing else to spend it on.

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Imagine everyone had the option to dump DE into walls before you'd maxed your heroes.

Would you be here looking for alternatives? No.

So let me get this straight... while you were maxing, and stealing the excess from other people who couldn't dump it into walls, you were OK with the system. But now that you're maxed, you selfishly don't want to let other people steal it from you?

In the last 24 hours there has been at least 100k DE that I have earned but can not collect between 5 star bonus, raids ,and war winning loot. So like I said theres lots of loot that will be wasted and never seen in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kaledonian

Imagine everyone had the option to dump DE into walls before you'd maxed your heroes.

Would you be here looking for alternatives? No.

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This. Are far more players needing de than there are that have no use for it. Give it to those that need it, just like those that didn’t gave it to you.

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Originally Posted by Spartacus1981

In the last 24 hours there has been at least 100k DE that I have earned but can not collect between 5 star bonus, raids ,and war winning loot. So like I said theres lots of loot that will be wasted and never seen in the game.

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To you it's wasted. To the people who raid you it's not wasted. It's the circle of life

Your storages cannot hold 5 mio dark elixir anyway, so dont worry about it.

writing multiple threads to this theme is not a good idea, I used to get annoyed when I had to waste resources, but it contributes to the whole game - if there was no surplus loot, wou would have nothing to raid.

Why don't you set your DE storage to the aside and share some of the love. DE is always hard to come by I'm sure a lot of us can put it to good use and relax cuz you can always get more.

Yes SC should give us facility to upgrade wall with dark elixer

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Originally Posted by Spartacus1981

Please let us start spending DE on walls, recently maxed out heros now I cant hold anymore. Storage, treasury, collectors all are constantly filled and nothing else to spend it on.

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No it would ruin the economy in COC. I've been maxed out on DE troops and heroes for 2 months and over 2 million DE was wasted. I just spend it on DE troops. Save your DE until you get to TH12.

What difference does it make to the economy if I spend 40-50k de on a wall or I just remove 40-50k from the game cause Im attacking with a full storage?

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Originally Posted by Somethingnotalreadypicked

What difference does it make to the economy if I spend 40-50k de on a wall or I just remove 40-50k from the game cause Im attacking with a full storage?

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If you're attacking with a full storage?

A full storage is rare, very rare. Dark overflows happen to few players. The ability to dump dark wouldn't be rare, nor close to it.

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Originally Posted by Kaledonian

If you're attacking with a full storage?

A full storage is rare, very rare. Dark overflows happen to few players. The ability to dump dark wouldn't be rare, nor close to it.

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It's not as rare as you think and this is exactly what op is talking about

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Originally Posted by Somethingnotalreadypicked

It's not as rare as you think and this is exactly what op is talking about

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No resource is rare anymore, and all becomes useless too quickly. What’s it matter which is first? If de can be used on walls, see no reason 9s shouldn’t be able to use worthless elixer and gold on heroes so they can finish quicker and move on up.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix1027

To you it's wasted. To the people who raid you it's not wasted. It's the circle of life

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I still have to save up to 5m DE to buy a wall, so others can still steal my DE. It is just frustrating to earn DE and watch it go to waste. You can’t steal it from me if I can’t store it. Supercell needs to give maxxed players something to spend DE on.

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Originally Posted by OriginalGC

I still have to save up to 5m DE to buy a wall, so others can still steal my DE. It is just frustrating to earn DE and watch it go to waste. You can’t steal it from me if I can’t store it. Supercell needs to give maxxed players something to spend DE on.

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If you’re really maxed, you need something to spend gold and elixer on as well.

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Originally Posted by wilsonatore

If you’re really maxed, you need something to spend gold and elixer on as well.

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If you are a maxxed player, you dont need ANY resources for walls, including DE. Ergo, you cant be maxxed.

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Originally Posted by Tosti111

If you are a maxxed player, you dont need ANY resources for walls, including DE. Ergo, you cant be maxxed.

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I thought it was obvious, I’m maxxed on DE. I still have 2 defenses, some traps, elixir troops and walls to finish.

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Originally Posted by OriginalGC

I thought it was obvious, I’m maxxed on DE. I still have 2 defenses, some traps, elixir troops and walls to finish.

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Similar position I am in, I use exclusively DE armies (approx 10K worth) per raid. Yes over time you will still max, but you can use all the free g9ld and elixer for walls anyways.

If will not wreck the economy. Only people that would use dark elixir on walls are those with 60/60 heroes and a lot of them would have most of their walls done already. The rest will be stashing it and using it on heroes. I don't think I have encountered a 60/60 heroes base yet. Most of them linger up in the high titan/legend area. I think you will find less than 0.1% of people will be in that scenario.

This suggestion comes up about once every couple of weeks.

Usually posed by somebody who have just finished all the upgrades that demand Dark Elixir.

There is absolutely no reason to remove the easy access to Dark Elixir, just because YOU have 60/60 Royals and all your Dark troops and spells done.

YOU have to change your mindset and simply ignore Dark Elixir and how much you have, until further Hero or Troop levels are added to the game. Until then, rejoice in the fact that somebody else gets something out of the DE they steal from you and the fact that THAT doesn't really hurt you.

In short, if you are going to suggest a change to the game, point out how SuperCell can earn more money from that change. Argue why money should be spend, developing the change, but state your reason as extra revenue, NOT "my Dark Elixir is overflowing and I'm really sad about that".

/Affront

I hope they never implement this. DE is already hard to get. Gold and elixirs are plentiful and easier to farm. Better to dump that into walls. Save that DE for maxing heroes and if they are already, then just use DE to mass cook DE troops for war or to push trophies since most people who have max walls and heroes tend to be in high leagues.

I feel that there is already enough options on how to upgrade walls

I though the loot cap at th12 was 87k so if you put it into walls with a storage limit of 200k once your dark troops and heroes are maxed I can’t see it hurting the economy unless I’ve read wrong

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Originally Posted by Gaazookss

I though the loot cap at th12 was 87k so if you put it into walls with a storage limit of 200k once your dark troops and heroes are maxed I can’t see it hurting the economy unless I’ve read wrong

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TH12 DE storage limit is 240k

Sorry I meant cap as in you can spend down from 240 to 200 on walls once below you can’t

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

When you can use all those excessive DE into the Walls, it does affect the economy of in some way.

When you have 240k full storage of DE, it means you can't collect any DE from Treasury of DE Drills.
When you can't collect it, it offers more loot the attackers. Means your base could offers up to 5K, 6K, 7K, 8K DE as compare to the normal 3.5-4K DE.

Walls upgrade is already fine the way it is with Gold and Elixir to upgrade it. If you have max Heroes and excessive DE, your best contribution is to the society by offering more DE. lol

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What you forgot is that as long my storage is full all the DE that I get in my raids is gone. Looking in my log that are ~4k in average (even I do not hunt for it) so I am actively take DE out of the economy.

I am not sure that this may be already a kind of compensation of the DE that I could use for walls.

Ya a lot of bad logic here, zellnera is correct once your storage is maxed all de pumped, colllected in raids and bonuses is removed from the game. Why not put it to something useful. Personally I’d like to see a de type offensive air troop that could be subbed for loons dragons and will compliment hounds. We have lots of great DE ground strategies but only 1 air option and it requires mostly elixir troops.

wouldnt complain if de wall upgrades were made a thing but not the top of my list. In all honesty de is super easy to collect just move up to titan or legend and use miners, I’m barely 11 on my mini and my queen is already almost 50, between books, cwl, games and league bonuses.. if we need anything it’s another builder to keep up with the flow of resources. All I do is attack with golem, bowlers and witches and my DE is still always maxed. I think you guys will be ok if we have some end game spending options

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

It doesn't really compensate for that. The difference is that when you use those DE for walls upgrade VS when you can't use those excessive DE for walls upgrade, is that one you have better walls level and one with weaker walls.

If you want to upgrade walls, farm for Gold and Elixir, there is no shortcut to that. Having tons of DE but max Heroes and all Dark Troops/Spells are maxed, doesn't give you a certificate to ask for a change that allows DE to upgrade walls. See Affront's reply on page 1, I think he explained it better.

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Farm for walls, oh yes I do that as it is the last thing that is open for me. Missing 110 lvl13 walls. But I farm in Legend.

I did not ask for DE walls upgrade but I want give you a other view of that problem that you and Affront not see.

You did not get my massage. I say we all with full storage already take a lot of DE out of the economy as every drop I farm is gone.

And by the way I have the same right to ask for that as you have the right to deny it.

It's important to think about the whole player base when debating this kind of thing.
If you have maxed 60/60 Heroes and are suggesting this option of using DE on walls, then it's hardly objective is it?
Now, I'm not totally dismissing the OP's suggestion, but the Clash economy is notoriously complicated and elastic to even the smallest of changes.

The obvious one that historically comes to mind is TH8 walls.
TH8 has always been a 'surplus' elixir TH level for years now. I'm sure if you've farmed for Gold and DE with all Dragons at TH8 you know exactly what I mean.
Back in the day, SC recognised this and decided to allow TH8's to use elixir on walls ....... the effect on the economy was catastrophic.

Everybody dumped their spare elixir into walls, and suddenly elixir became the rarest of resources. SC soon reversed their decision, and once again walls could only be upgraded by gold.

My point being, just the smallest of decisions can have a huge influence on the game for the playing masses.
We each have to plan our upgrade progressions with the current economy in mind. :)

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Originally Posted by Affront

This suggestion comes up about once every couple of weeks.

Usually posed by somebody who have just finished all the upgrades that demand Dark Elixir.

There is absolutely no reason to remove the easy access to Dark Elixir, just because YOU have 60/60 Royals and all your Dark troops and spells done.

YOU have to change your mindset and simply ignore Dark Elixir and how much you have, until further Hero or Troop levels are added to the game. Until then, rejoice in the fact that somebody else gets something out of the DE they steal from you and the fact that THAT doesn't really hurt you.

In short, if you are going to suggest a change to the game, point out how SuperCell can earn more money from that change. Argue why money should be spend, developing the change, but state your reason as extra revenue, NOT "my Dark Elixir is overflowing and I'm really sad about that".

/Affront

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Perfectly said.

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Originally Posted by Skrags

It's important to think about the whole player base when debating this kind of thing.
If you have maxed 60/60 Heroes and are suggesting this option of using DE on walls, then it's hardly objective is it?
Now, I'm not totally dismissing the OP's suggestion, but the Clash economy is notoriously complicated and elastic to even the smallest of changes.

The obvious one that historically comes to mind is TH8 walls.
TH8 has always been a 'surplus' elixir TH level for years now. I'm sure if you've farmed for Gold and DE with all Dragons at TH8 you know exactly what I mean.
Back in the day, SC recognised this and decided to allow TH8's to use elixir on walls ....... the effect on the economy was catastrophic.

Everybody dumped their spare elixir into walls, and suddenly elixir became the rarest of resources. SC soon reversed their decision, and once again walls could only be upgraded by gold.

My point being, just the smallest of decisions can have a huge influence on the game for the playing masses.
We each have to plan our upgrade progressions with the current economy in mind. :)

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I agree with you in that we need to look into that as a bigger picture. Believe me I know the good old th8 dragon times. We as player do not have the data for that. What I pointed out is that maybe the player with full storage take already a good amount of DE out of the game simply by raiding.

Looking in my log I have done 10 raids yesterday -> 4k DE in average of my enemies + 4500 daily bonus + 2.4k per win => ~66k DE that I take out of the economy.

At your TH8 example I see a big difference. TH8 walls where not the top end as the decision was done. Therefor a lot of TH8 to Th10 have had a lot of wall lvl8 to upgrade.
If sc sometimes decide to upgrade walls with DE I would only do it for lvl13 or even start with lvl14 (I guess you understand what I mean).

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Originally Posted by zellnera

Farm for walls, oh yes I do that as it is the last thing that is open for me. Missing 110 lvl13 walls. But I farm in Legend.

I did not ask for DE walls upgrade but I want give you a other view of that problem that you and Affront not see.

You did not get my massage. I say we all with full storage already take a lot of DE out of the economy as every drop I farm is gone.

And by the way I have the same right to ask for that as you have the right to deny it.

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Game development isn't done by public vote.

You have no right to ask for anything and I have no right to deny it.

I can only argue logically, why your request isn't a good idea and there by help you on your journey to acceptance of the game mechanic that currently exist.

I DO have 60/60/30 heroes, my dark troops are maxed and I've been overflowing on Dark Elixir for months (both now, and up to the introduction of TH12). I have about 40 days of 5-builder defence upgrade time left and about 40 days of laboratory time. Both of which will be reduced by 14 days when the Clan Games finish. I have about 80 Level 13 walls left and I dump resources into walls at a steady pace.

And yet, I don't see a "problem" with overflowing Dark Elixir (or Gold or Elixir) at all.

I see the overflowing resources as a bonus to the people attacking me and during the long periods where I've been sitting with a completely maxed Town Hall, I've been rooting for my attackers every single time. Even during these periods, I've found joy in the game and have had a couple of hundred wins a season.

DE for walls will only allow you to get your walls done a few days faster .. and it will increase the pain for the people still scrambling to "acquire" Dark Elixir.

LASTLY .. a change wouldn't bring SuperCell any additional revenue, meaning that the argument for a change isn't there.

(In fact, extracting DE from the player base would raise a storm of complaints about making DE even harder to get.)

When you don't need DE anymore, rejoice in the fact that your Heroic Heist number will increase steadily, that's all.

/Affront

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Originally Posted by Affront

Game development isn't done by public vote.

You have no right to ask for anything and I have no right to deny it.


/Affront

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I do not know your age or backround, I only know that I am old enough and work in R&D for complex machine so believe me I understand the development process very well.

You and me as a customer have the right to ask for any feature or change as we like. SC on the other hand has the right to listen or not.

By the way we here on a forum and not in the development process. The nature of a forum is discussion.

Honestly I do not care if any of my resource is overflowing I have had that more then once in the around 6 years I play CoC.

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Originally Posted by Affront

LASTLY .. a change wouldn't bring SuperCell any additional revenue, meaning that the argument for a change isn't there.
/Affront

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Also here you and me have not enough data you do not know if the players will spend gems on training portion.

But yes it would only save a few days and will make us staying longer with all three resources max waiting for the next update.

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Originally Posted by zellnera

..snip..
But yes it would only save a few days and will make us staying longer with all three resources max waiting for the next update.

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This is actually the foundation for my entire argument NOT to change anything. :-)

Every change should be met with "SHOW ME THE MONEY" .. if it can't handle THAT, it's not a good change.

/Affront
20 years of experience in software development.

I totally support this idea for walls level 13!

In the current state players with maxed heroes will spend DE on dark troops to farm their walls, which somehow also means "unbalacing the economy".

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Originally Posted by zellnera

If sc sometimes decide to upgrade walls with DE I would only do it for lvl13 or even start with lvl14 (I guess you understand what I mean).

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I do understand what you mean, and I am sympathetic to ideas to aid 'end game' player participation, which is why, for example I'm such an advocate for SC to dilute the 'Clouds' issue, even though I'm not a trophy pusher myself.

But, trying to be devil's advocate here, there was approximately 30 months (2.5 years) between the late 2015 announcement of TH11, and the TH12 update.
It's been 6 months since the June 2018 announcement of TH12, and some experienced players are already asking for DE to be used on walls......:saywhat:

It's not for me to judge others on how they play the game, or how they progress their own bases... each to their own, and good luck to you all, but I can't help feeling that 'you make your bed, you lie in it':thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Skrags

I do understand what you mean, and I am sympathetic to ideas to aid 'end game' player participation, which is why, for example I'm such an advocate for SC to dilute the 'Clouds' issue, even though I'm not a trophy pusher myself.

But, trying to be devil's advocate here, there was approximately 30 months (2.5 years) between the late 2015 announcement of TH11, and the TH12 update.
It's been 6 months since the June 2018 announcement of TH12, and some experienced players are already asking for DE to be used on walls......:saywhat:

It's not for me to judge others on how they play the game, or how they progress their own bases... each to their own, and good luck to you all, but I can't help feeling that 'you make your bed, you lie in it':thumbsup:

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I know what you mean, but honestly you do not need any gems to be at the no upgrade left point at the moment. I do not say that I do not buy gems sometimes but with hammers, books and portions you can speed up a lot.
So at the moment I have ~24 days of lab left (siege machine) and ~7 days until the last builder will be finishing the last pump or mine

We have had this point also in the 2,5 years of TH11 more then once. I can not remember how many month my builder where idle the light in the lab was shut off. All of us where waiting for the next batch of walls to do or the next level of a random troop or defense building to upgrade.

Th12 is not done yet we will see more then once new content to it until we might get th13. I expect that after the December update we will have some trap level and maybe the blower or bomb tower to upgrade. I don't believe that we will get the 3rd batch of walls.

SC promised to fix the cloud issue more then once so I have no high hope that they ever fix it. But the clouds helps somehow. I can let the search run and do something else without to focus on the screen much. As soon the sky opens I can do a raid and then repeat.

If people start using de on wall then there will be lack of DE for loot. Which will rest into slow process for many players.

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Originally Posted by zellnera

Looking in my log I have done 10 raids yesterday -> 4k DE in average of my enemies + 4500 daily bonus + 2.4k per win => ~66k DE that I take out of the economy.

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If DE were allowed to be dumped into walls, then you wouldn't have been able to steal 66kDE from yesterday because some/most/maybe all of those targets would have had very little DE available (because they dumped it into walls). Since you don't need DE, you see it as wasted. But what about everyone else yesterday who did 10 raids for 66kDE and they still haven't maxed their DE upgrades? They need that 66kDE and it's not wasted for them.

Honestly, I compare that with the times after the th12 update where we all needed to get 20 more DE hero levels. Even there I could fill my DE storage in 4 days meaning around 60k per day. I do not know where you raid but in legend league DE was always enough.

I did not say it is wasted I say it is taken out of the economy that is not the same!


You get resource in the cycle by mine, pumps and win and daily bonus. You remove resources out of the cycle by buildings lab troops search costs and the resources and bonus you raid and can not be stored.

So the 66k were taken out of the economy cycle. Maybe that makes it more clear the 40k stolen by other reduce the total amount of DE available and the 24k (bonus) are never make it in the cycle

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Originally Posted by zellnera

Honestly, I compare that with the times after the th12 update where we all needed to get 20 more DE hero levels. Even there I could fill my DE storage in 4 days meaning around 60k per day. I do not know where you raid but in legend league DE was always enough.

I did not say it is wasted I say it is taken out of the economy that is not the same!


You get resource in the cycle by mine, pumps and win and daily bonus. You remove resources out of the cycle by buildings lab troops search costs and the resources and bonus you raid and can not be stored.

So the 66k were taken out of the economy cycle. Maybe that makes it more clear the 40k stolen by other reduce the total amount of DE available and the 24k (bonus) are never make it in the cycle

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Let's take a hypothetical example. Suppose that you have 0 DE and a wall section costs 60 kDE. You do your 10 attacks, earn 66 kDE, then dump it into a wall. Boom - none of it never makes it into the cycle.

Addressing your example of when TH12 was released - every Hero upgrade costs much more than the % cap on DE storage. So many people saving for those extra 20 levels has >4kDE available to be stolen. What's a fair price for a wall section purchased with DE? In general, it seems DE:E value ratio is about 1:100, so 40k-60k would be fair. But even if it was 80k, everyone will be dumping into walls before reaching the max % loot cap, therefore less is available to be stolen.

On the short term you might see it as ressources taken away from the economy. But actually and especially on the long term it might benefit the economy. I give an example to illustrate:


I'm done with my heros so now I mostly need gold/elixir to farm my walls. As I can't use DE to up walls, it is pretty useless (except once every two weeks to finish the last troops). So I'll just keep on farming ressources for my walls with dark troops, which keeps DE storage pretty low. I used to farm with goblin knife, now I just spam valkyries. This is also means DE being taken out of the economy (somehow I trade DE for elixir).

If I were able to use DE to up my walls it would take less time to do so. Which means I would earlier become a base "that really doesn't need ressources anymore" or, in other words , a base with a lot of DE to loot.

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

Consider this example:
Some TH12 already maxed every Gold and Elixir upgrade (including Walls). But this guy has 30 levels of Heroes uprade to do (all DE required).

Then he come and requested that Gold and Elixir to be made available for Heroes upgrade. He doesn't mind if the upgrade cost 12 Million Gold or Elixir, since he is overflowing Gold and Elixir anyway with nothing to do.

From his point of view, he got every right to ask for this change. But from the big picture, it doesn't make sense at all. The change he requested will change the economy landscape that Gold and Elixir, nobody would be farming DE anymore.

This is the exact same condition of the request to put DE into walls upgrade. Just because you don't need those DE, it doesn't mean this request is legit or reasonable. From the big picture point of view, it will affect the economy, there is no argument there, regardless of how much you take away from the economy at this point, it's pointless to talk about it.

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The difference is that most players who end up in the situation we are talking about in this topic will have everything (defenses, troops and heros) maxed way before being done with walls.

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

I had edited my post as I thought it might mislead there. I understand you have the right to ask for something as you are in the forum. What I truly meant was, it doesn't mean what you ask is legit or reasonable.

Consider this example:
Some TH12 already maxed every Gold and Elixir upgrade (including Walls). But this guy has 30 levels of Heroes uprade to do (all DE required).

Then he come and requested that Gold and Elixir to be made available for Heroes upgrade. He doesn't mind if the upgrade cost 12 Million Gold or Elixir, since he is overflowing Gold and Elixir anyway with nothing to do.

From his point of view, he got every right to ask for this change. But from the big picture, it doesn't make sense at all. The change he requested will change the economy landscape that Gold and Elixir, nobody would be farming DE anymore.

This is the exact same condition of the request to put DE into walls upgrade. Just because you don't need those DE, it doesn't mean this request is legit or reasonable. From the big picture point of view, it will affect the economy, there is no argument there, regardless of how much you take away from the economy at this point, it's pointless to talk about it.

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I am not sure if you where around as we get elixir for walls. We have had the exact same discussion as now.

Fact is that at the higher town halls DE is the most unbalanced resource we have. I find it really funny what you all get on the field to get your idea as the one and only. Your example is far from possible because even if you would raid only gold and elix and get all your DE only thru your drills all your DE upgrades would be done earlier.
Fact is we all have no data and do only assumptions. Only SC knows how much DE is in the economy and also how much is lost. So that means only they can know if it would harm or not
And to get the other question it is of coarse depending on the prize and I round place it as high as 100k

Arguing about the economy for DE is a red herring. There is a viable alternate tha exists today and I have been doing it for the lastmonth or so. Use DE heavy armies. That allows you go amass both gold and regular elixer to build walls. I sit in high titans low legends and can pop out 4-5 walls a day with min8mal effort.

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

How long is the long term? You are talking about years.

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Not really years but around 6 months maybe (which means nothing is you are farming level 13 walls). Maybe even less as apparently some players that aren't gemming already finished their walls. Okay, more casual players will take longer, but by that time this might be compensated by the fully maxed bases that are giving ressources.
I don't know if you are familiar with P2P sharing but we could use a similarity with it. When a new file is being shared the download speeds are "slow", mainly because of the lack of seeds. But, from the moment a few people are done downloading, the overwall sharing speed increases at exponentially. The same way, having more bases fully maxed will increase the flow of ressources helping lower bases to max faster.

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Originally Posted by Sakat

On the short term you might see it as ressources taken away from the economy. But actually and especially on the long term it might benefit the economy. I give an example to illustrate:


I'm done with my heros so now I mostly need gold/elixir to farm my walls. As I can't use DE to up walls, it is pretty useless (except once every two weeks to finish the last troops). So I'll just keep on farming ressources for my walls with dark troops, which keeps DE storage pretty low. I used to farm with goblin knife, now I just spam valkyries. This is also means DE being taken out of the economy (somehow I trade DE for elixir).

If I were able to use DE to up my walls it would take less time to do so. Which means I would earlier become a base "that really doesn't need ressources anymore" or, in other words , a base with a lot of DE to loot.



The difference is that most players who end up in the situation we are talking about in this topic will have everything (defenses, troops and heros) maxed way before being done with walls.

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Yes, but most people do NOT have maxed heroes, particularly people who are low enough that they are just "farming". So you'd be creating a situation whereby a very small fragment of the population is engaged in a situation which adds DE to the economy vs what would otherwise happen, and a MASSIVE portion of the population is taking DE OUT of the economy compared to what would otherwise happen.

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Originally Posted by zellnera

I am not sure if you where around as we get elixir for walls. We have had the exact same discussion as now.

Fact is that at the higher town halls DE is the most unbalanced resource we have. I find it really funny what you all get on the field to get your idea as the one and only. Your example is far from possible because even if you would raid only gold and elix and get all your DE only thru your drills all your DE upgrades would be done earlier.
Fact is we all have no data and do only assumptions. Only SC knows how much DE is in the economy and also how much is lost. So that means only they can know if it would harm or not
And to get the other question it is of coarse depending on the prize and I round place it as high as 100k

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At high levels, DE is very unbalanced...and why is it unbalanced? Because the people with nothing to spend DE on who maxed their heroes already took advantage of the situation where people can't dump DE into walls lol.

Elixir for walls is quite a bit different, because there were LOTS of people who had maxed out their elixir upgrades for a given TH level FAR before they had maxed out gold upgrades. The proportion of those folks to the proportion of folks who max their heroes prior to maxing gold and elixir upgrades isn't nearly the same (and to SC, the change made sense...because at lower levels people were stopping their progress in order to farm gold for walls before advancing, so to incentivize advancement which is in SC's best interest, they let you spend your elixir on walls too).

How does dumping DE into walls incentivize advancement if we're talking about people who are maxed on heroes? It doesn't, they're already at the last stages of base building, and in fact it actively discourages them from spending real money to upgrade walls.

I was about to open a new topic until I found this so I’ll just post my ideas here, Darien said they had thought of it but thought it would lack the economy for farmers still farming hero’s, that’s a good fair point, so how about have it half way, make it you have to have a minimum of 100k (or maybe 120k, but whatever) dark in storage’s currently to be able to upgrade a wall with dark, (assuming it would be 50k dark for a blue wall, 40 for white and so on). That would at least leave almost the cap still up for the taking for when your up for a defence, so it won’t be hurting the economy for the farmers still.

I have full Heroes and full DE storage 100% of the time, along with full DE in treasury. I just don't use it, and everyone who attacks me with lower level heroes have a shot at stealing a flat ~5k DE plus the bonus from the raid. I am one of the people dumping DE into the economy because everything I generate on my drills go to someone else or my troops.

I can farm dark elixir very easily. Now imagine that all people who are on the same stage of the game as me are able to use all their dark elixir somehow other than lab and heroes. Now, where the people who were farming my base will be getting their dark elixir from?

Now we have a scenario where you can spend dark elixir to upgrade walls, you will NEVER see me with a full DE storage again, all you are going to be able to steal from me is gold. And I believe that will be the case with many players. The consequences might be game killing.

Now you say, well, isn't it the same with gold and elixir? If people dump those on walls, where is the farming coming from?

Well, dark elixir farming is harder, and plays a major role on the game as it is the resource to upgrade heroes. I don't see people quitting because they need to upgrade 3 levels of their archer tower, but if you see your Hero on level 10 and you need to get to 30 at TH 9, and then you look to the future and realize there are 30 more levels, until 60... and you just cant find a base with DE to loot, you will stop playing, its game changing.

You will not be without any DE most of the times it all depends how high the cost of a wall is.

lvl13 walls are 5 mio each so above the max raid limit so if a wall would cost e.g 100k DE you would provide enough DE.

I am also one of that person with full storage, treasure and drills but so are most of the people surrounding me. I guess it also depends where you attack I am in legend so most people I see have also full DE -> therefor every raid we take DE out of the economy this is a factor that you all regret.

So yes maybe if you as TH12 are low in league and yes in my onion even T2 is low you would harm lower level TH.


We could make an incentive for Legend league out of it, lets say you can buy walls with DE if you reach e.g 5400, as you all fear the negative effect for lower TH. This might get some more TH12 up.

I guess no one liked my idea then, it woulda kept both sides of the argument happy, but hey whatever

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

I am sorry Sakat, by I agree with dmoore1998 here.

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Nothing to be sorry about. We're here to exchange our points of view so thanks for sharing yours!

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

6 months is very long, enough to kill off a game with millions players. And that's a maybe, it could be worse....

if you want to propose this change to happen, then you should argue with "why it is beneficial to all players now and how is it beneficial to the profit of SC?", not "I am overflowing DE so I like DE able to upgrade walls". Such argument / reasoning just doesn't cut it.

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I already wrote before my argument but I'll explain again with more details.


I totally agree that allowing players to use DE to upgrade walls only concerns a small minority of players. But this isn't an argument. After all adding more level 13 walls also concerns very few percent of the players, still Supercell added them. So quantity doesn't make an argument right or wrong.

Also I understand the concern wrote by some above that it could have a negative impact on the "whole economy". But I can't totally agree with that one.
At first TH12 can't attack or be attacked by bases under TH10 and actually in practice it's very unlikely for a TH12 to find a TH10 with interesting ressources. So this wouldn't impact "the whole economy" (as long as impact there should be). Okay, one can say that allowing using DE to upgrade walls concerns every TH levels because when TH12 are rushing for DE that has an impact on TH11 who will be more likely to attack more TH10 who will go on TH9.... But after all when TH12 was released all the maxed TH11 were looting DE again to up their heros and lower TH still survived to it. So this discussion mostly concerns TH12 and TH11 only.

Now, why I'm saying this would be beneficial to all players?
At the very beginning such a change would have impact, yes. It would require some times (I wrote 6 months but maybe it would take less) to have more fully maxed bases. Having more fully maxed bases would then help other players to upgrade at a faster pace. Which means this would result in more fully maxed bases with also plenty of DE to loot, increasing the speed even more. Etc... And when players have too much ressources but nothing to upgrade what to they do? They use their books or gem. Which is beneficial to SC. Have you ever wondered why during the first season of CWL we had troops event with bonus and war rewards doubled? Everyone in my clan had their storages and CC full with no builder available and most of them are casual players... Just the perfect time for a great 5x value offer ;)

This is why, altough on the short term it might have an impact on the DE available, after a while this will actually benefit most players and SC.

I wrote "6 months" which seems like a very long time. But if a player is concerned by the DE economy situation I described above, it means he's already used to count by months of gaming so six months isn't that a huge deal. I highly doubt there are a lot of people who managed to up to TH12 with maxed dark troops and level 60 heros in a few months.... About that number, please not that I don't have access to SC big datas, so this "6 months" is more to illustrate. It could be twice that time, but it could also be half of it. Altough considering how long it takes my clan members to up, I think 5-6 months is a good estimation. Anyway, this is just an estimation and the main point here is that this would be exponential helping more and more players to upgrade at a faster and faster pace. Goes in the same direction taken by SC during the last year as all the new content that was released since Clan Games was oriented to push players toward TH12. So in from that point of view it would make sense to SC strategy.


Another important point is that allowing players to use DE on walls doesn't necessarly means it would become interesting to farm DE for walls. If one wall costs 200k DE nobody would farm DE just for that wall and I doubt one wall would cost 1k DE either. So how much DE should one wall cost to keep a good balance? (#1)
Limiting this to maxed heros bases wouldn't really make sense as having maxed heros is more important than upgrading level 13 walls. But what about limiting to a certain X number walls per day? (#2)
Or the other solution already wrote in this thread, allowing players to up walls with DE only when they have more than a certain amount of DE? (#3)


I'm sure SC has talented people who can find the best answers to #1, #2 and #3 with the huge data they have on millions of players. So no need to debate over this hypothetical values. But what I do know is that in the current situation when a player has nothing left to spend his DE on and with still walls to max, the best way to do so is to trade DE for Elixir by farming with Dark Troops. And this is DE completely taken out of the economy.

Ouch, to much to read lol, I just think it’s very simple, 50k a wall (blue wall) and you can only use dark if your currently holding 50% of your storage’s at least, so that been 120k dark, that way there’s still always dark for the taking

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

I don't think you understand the effect it has on economy.

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lol guy I am old enough have an Master degree and work in a high tech company holding some patents so yes I sure I understand the economy of a mobile game. I playing this game now more then 6 years you can believe I understand where resources are coming from.

So you are asking my why to do it for the max TH12 players I could ask you why not?
I build many of my walls with gold (elix walls where not allowed the idea was even ruled out) and now it is normal to do so.
I was there when you could lightning the DE storage and also see all complains when this was ended.
I paid the full prize and update time of every single structure, and see all the complains when the price was reduced especially as we seen a reduced cost of walls.

I do not care about that, that it is the prize you pay if you playing the game for so long.

And yes Darian`s statement is right it would have an impact to the amount of available DE as everything else also the add on of 10 Hero level had an impact to the amount of available DE, the question is more if the effect would be negative and we would see an DE depression.

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

Personally, I don't see how SC will put a research team to find what is the right balance. Isn't it way more easier to keep things the same? I mean what's wrong with Gold and Elixir to upgrade Walls? There is nothing wrong with that, and allowing DE to upgrade it create more issue than not. So why do that? I mean I would rather has SC trying to give new contents rather than changing things that always works without issue.

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If SC would have done that we would not have elix for walls, we would wait hours for our troops and yes even the best we would loose our army at the training fields after you where raided. The status quo you mentioned here is the result of many changes already happen and some of them change every update it is called balancing changes

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

Let me stop your right there.
It isn't a statement that you can agree or disagree there. As I quote below from what Darian said in recent AMA on reddit, read the last statement, allowing DE to upgrade Walls will have an affect on overall economy.

It doesn't matter you agree or disagree, but this statement came from Darian that represent SC, there is no argument there. This idea will have an affect on the game economy. PERIOD.

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You misunderstood.

When I wrote that I can't totally agree with that one, I am not talking about if there would be an impact or not. All what follows in my posts is saying that there would be an impact: negative at first (short term) but positive then (long term).
I'm referring to accepting this fact as an argument against the idea of using DE to up walls. For the reasons explained under which illustrate that it would not necessarly be a negative things for the economy.

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

If you want to give an idea that you want SC to listen, how about an idea that will give ZERO effect on the DE economy. Even for few days, if you are talking about months then you might as well stop hoping it will come.

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Please let's leave it to SC to decide if my idea is relevant or not, but if you have an idea that will give ZERO effect on the DE economy feel free to share it!

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

As things stand right now, you could use full Dark Elixir troops and farm for Gold and Elixir to upgrade Walls. The economy will stay the same. Therefore, I don't see any need to allow DE to upgrade Walls which will affect the overall DE economy.

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Sure and I never claimed the opposite! Try to read what I wrote instead of jumping straight away on your keyboard. I'm just saying that, for the reasons I explained in my previous post, I could be a base "which has almost no DE to loot" for a shorter period of time than the one I will be as things stand right now.

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

Personally, I don't see how SC will put a research team to find what is the right balance.

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Two words: Big Data. Don't worry if SC collects that much data about players it's not to let it sleep in the clouds.

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Originally Posted by WinterMech

Isn't it way more easier to keep things the same?

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Of course it would be easier. But between keeping things the same because it's easier or figuring a way to improve the game experience I'll go for the second one even if harder.

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Originally Posted by zellnera

lol guy I am old enough have an Master degree and work in a high tech company holding some patents so yes I sure I understand the economy of a mobile game. I playing this game now more then 6 years you can believe I understand where resources are coming from.

So you are asking my why to do it for the max TH12 players I could ask you why not?
I build many of my walls with gold (elix walls where not allowed the idea was even ruled out) and now it is normal to do so.
I was there when you could lightning the DE storage and also see all complains when this was ended.
I paid the full prize and update time of every single structure, and see all the complains when the price was reduced especially as we seen a reduced cost of walls.

I do not care about that, that it is the prize you pay if you playing the game for so long.

And yes Darian`s statement is right it would have an impact to the amount of available DE as everything else also the add on of 10 Hero level had an impact to the amount of available DE, the question is more if the effect would be negative and we would see an DE depression.

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Great argument. Well I have a Masters degree on aeronautical engineering and I literally design airplanes and rockets, and I say neither I or you understand the economy of a mobile game, it is much more complex than you might think. Supercell people do, because they made it.

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Originally Posted by MystClash

Great argument. Well I have a Masters degree on aeronautical engineering and I literally design airplanes and rockets, and I say neither I or you understand the economy of a mobile game, it is much more complex than you might think. Supercell people do, because they made it.

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The problem is that we do not have the data. And because of this we can only make assumption. By the way the model is very simple:
increase of DE: drills, dally bonus, win bonus, war bonus, loot cart ...
decrease of DE: troop/spell costs, updates (troops,spells,heros), trap filling, DE stolen from someone @ full storage
unused (DE that would be generated but can not been USED) drill production @ full drill, bonus that did not fit the treasure

Raided DE from someone that fits in your storage has nothing to do with it as it is only a shift from person A to person B but stays in the economy.

So we only need to look in the increase and decrease. As long the increase and decrease is the same or the increase is higher than the decrease we are in a healthy state.

Now we need to factor in if the unused amount and decrease (DE stolen from someone @ full storage) maybe could compensate the decrease the walls by DE would add.

if you can get me the data I could model that very accurate.

So the data point I can reference from the near past was the introduction of TH12 with 20 new here levels. I could not see there any dry out, so I can guess we would also have no dry out if the same group of people (TH12) now could get some of there DE in walls.

I would rather them implement farming limits......if you don't have storage for it you don't get to loot it.....

There have been lots of days where I just don't play because I am waiting on a free builder and feel bad looting resources from other players that vanish due to full storage's.....

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Originally Posted by carmour987

I would rather them implement farming limits......if you don't have storage for it you don't get to loot it.....

There have been lots of days where I just don't play because I am waiting on a free builder and feel bad looting resources from other players that vanish due to full storage's.....

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Wouldn't this prevent pushers who are maxed out in resources from playing?

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Originally Posted by Gorbash098

Wouldn't this prevent pushers who are maxed out in resources from playing?

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No, it would just prevent you from taking the loot, not from destroying buildings and raiding.

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Originally Posted by dmoore1998

No, it would just prevent you from taking the loot, not from destroying buildings and raiding.

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In that case, I do not see a problem with this idea.

I read here often that then the bases with 5..9k DE would disappear, to make it clear this has no impact of the economics. The amount player A raid from player B has no impact of the overall amount of DE because it is only a resource shift as long it fits in the storage of player B. It impacts only player A and player B in the way how long they need to accumulate the DE for the next update.

The point why I think we need a DE sink for higher player is the following. Lets discuss the Net Income or lost of 2 scenarios:
player A day by day farming army costs 500 DE, he raid in legend league and getting the 70% is so easy that we can assume we get the full win bonus 2400 DE. Lets say he gets 3000 DE from player B.

1) He can store all DE in storage
Net income = -500 (army costs) +2400 (win bonus) = 1900 DE -> This raid increases the overall amount of DE in the system
The 3000 DE raided by player B have no impact of the overall amount as they are only shifted from player B to player A

2) He starts with a full DE storage
-> the 1900 DE can not be stored so they are gone also the 3000 (from player B) can not be stored and are also gone
Net lost = 3000 DE -> This raid decrease the overall amount of DE in the system

So you can see the same raid can either increase the overall amount or decrease it depending only on the storage state of player A. The question is if that difference could compensate the DE we take out of the systems for walls.

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Originally Posted by zellnera

I read here often that then the bases with 5..9k DE would disappear, to make it clear this has no impact of the economics. The amount player A raid from player B has no impact of the overall amount of DE because it is only a resource shift as long it fits in the storage of player B. It impacts only player A and player B in the way how long they need to accumulate the DE for the next update.

The point why I think we need a DE sink for higher player is the following. Lets discuss the Net Income or lost of 2 scenarios:
player A day by day farming army costs 500 DE, he raid in legend league and getting the 70% is so easy that we can assume we get the full win bonus 2400 DE. Lets say he gets 3000 DE from player B.

1) He can store all DE in storage
Net income = -500 (army costs) +2400 (win bonus) = 1900 DE -> This raid increases the overall amount of DE in the system
The 3000 DE raided by player B have no impact of the overall amount as they are only shifted from player B to player A

2) He starts with a full DE storage
-> the 1900 DE can not be stored so they are gone also the 3000 (from player B) can not be stored and are also gone
Net lost = 3000 DE -> This raid decrease the overall amount of DE in the system

So you can see the same raid can either increase the overall amount or decrease it depending only on the storage state of player A. The question is if that difference could compensate the DE we take out of the systems for walls.

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It absolutely impacts economics. People are talking about having no more updates to make with DE, and wanting to use it for walls. So in one scenario Player B takes the DE and puts it into their walls never to be seen again. In another scenario, Player A takes the DE and it is floating around in the economy changing hands. You mention the impact is how long it takes them to accumulate for the next upgrade...but the entire argument for using DE on walls is that they do not HAVE any more DE upgrades to make. I agree if they're just passing DE around, there's no real impact...but we're not talking about that. We're talking about having it raidable, or removing it from circulation forever.

Your own 2 examples show it has an impact to the economics...but you're right in that the question of the difference of the 2 scenarios is what makes things important. So then we are left with the question...are there more people with full DE who attack and cannot actually collect the DE they raid from people who WOULD have used it (i.e. they aren't maxed out on DE upgrades)...or are there more people who are not maxed out on DE who raid. The answer seems obvious.

Sure I know that we need to factor in the amount that is taken out of the system by buying walls. But this has a lot to do with the coast per wall.
What I wanted to show that every raid done with full storage already takes DE out of the system, a fact that many here do not see.

Talking about legend I can say that I see more bases with max hero’s and full storage as otherwise around, same was true for the last year as th11.

We could argue forth and back for ages but without the data there is not much to say anymore.

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Originally Posted by zellnera

Sure I know that we need to factor in the amount that is taken out of the system by buying walls. But this has a lot to do with the coast per wall.
What I wanted to show that every raid done with full storage already takes DE out of the system, a fact that many here do not see.

Talking about legend I can say that I see more bases with max hero’s and full storage as otherwise around, same was true for the last year as th11.

We could argue forth and back for ages but without the data there is not much to say anymore.

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Yes, it absolutely does, but if we're looking at how the economy would CHANGE with the implementation of something, then whatever gains or losses occur today is irrelevant. The only thing relevant would be how current state changes with the implementation of something new.

You don't need data to determine that introducing a mechanism which leaves everything else the same, but allows for a new method of removing DE from the economy is going to reduce the DE in the economy. You only need the data to determine HOW MUCH would be removed (and the data you'd need isn't available, because that data would be how many people would actually take advantage of it, and to what extent they'd take advantage of it). It's hypothetical future data if implemented. Whatever happens today isn't relevant, today is a baseline to compare future changes to. You don't need any data on current state, you need data on future post-change state.

The best case scenario for not hurting the DE economy is the highest trophy levels. If you assume that everyone in a small segment of the population is already completely maxed on DE upgrades, then the DE economy is unchanged at best. Everyone just has whatever they have, nobody ever raids them who needs DE, any DE that gets raided is removed from the economy anyways, etc. BEST case scenario is no change to the economy, which only occurs if everyone in the game has no DE upgrades to make, which we know isn't true.

Definitely at some maxed out segments the impact on DE availability would be very little, since it's all just sitting there today getting lost, and in the future it would be getting lost as well (and the loss of it doesn't matter if you make the assumption that nobody who needs it would ever get it as if that group were a confined group to themselves, which they are not).

So the argument against allowing players to use DE to upgrade walls is the economy of availability for de? That's a pretty week argument what percentage of players that actually have maxed heros that would be willing to dump de on walls? It is extremely low i just looked at my defensive and offensive log which is a total of 60 different attacks and I encountered a total of 2 other opponents with max heros. So that's only 2 out of 60 that would be willing to dump de for the same purpose as me.