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As the th 12 kicked engineers out, so is everybody happy with that?
so what will happen. is it ends now?
it fells horrible so much achievement ends? coz we are jealous about them. we should be shamed.
not them. Its a game and everybody should have the r8 to play as they like.
what to say more.........SC should do something about it.
SC did do something about it. Not a lot, but they did.
Is everyone happy about it? No, not everyone... But most of us prefer a more even battlefield in war.
Engineering is far from dead yet. If someone keeps their anchor low enough, say TH10 with engineered 9.11's or very well optimized bases, it will still work.
It will take time to eradicate this blight from the game!
As a maxer, I absolutely prefer a more even battlefield in war. The problem is that for a clan of 10s and 11s with no 12 doners, it just became more uneven. Now we can still match engineers, but they can also have siege machines. I too wanted a fix to engineered clans, but I had no idea the fix would cripple my clan as well. Be careful what you wish for, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConfuzed1
What would be nice would be a way to reward peer attacks. Whether you are a full base or not, having 10s hit 9s and 11s hit 10s is not an even battlefield in war. Mismatches occur all the time, but finding a way to incentivize peer attacks would go a long way in equaling that out. Last war our 9s cleared all their 9s and a few 9.5s....they only did one 9v9 on us. Same with 10s.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConfuzed1
These are your choices:Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
1. Recruit a TH12 (preferably several)
2. Have some of your TH11s go to TH12
3. Create a rushed TH12 donation account (You can take the long way around, or buy value packs/gems to get there faster)
4. Fight through it until you have people at TH12
5. Take a break from war and farm up
6. Be salty about it and allow it to ruin your gaming experience
7. Quit
You may choose any one, or any combination of those options.
You left out, post it daily in the forum...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConfuzed1
I think I will quit - thanks for the advice
When were they ever equal? And which engineers? There are so many different ways to engineer. As far as war, the matchmaker seems to be playing games with extreme forms and roster engineering (as well as some people just using who they have). As long as I can progress at a pace satisfactory to me while having fun and get fair war matches, I don't really care if you evolve into a valk with vulcan mind powers. For now, both are true for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulBounded
One way the engineers equal the maxers is engineers will always be better posts are equally annoying as the maxers are morally superior ones.
Show me your engineered TH12...Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulBounded
I'll take a number 6 please, and super size it. 1-3 are not legitimate options. I will not choose 4 and be crushed all the way through 11. I have temporarily chosen 5. I'll finish up my 10 anyway. I need one more upgrade of king. Not sure if I'll keep working on lab or wall past that. You can see I'm all about 6. Looks like I might be a lean towards 7. I think it will be more like an extended break. I'll pop back in from time to time to see if things improve. I've spent way too much time on this game to just completely trash it. Now if I can see any type of official response from SC that they have intentionally scrapped lower game play, you can call me a perma 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConfuzed1
I’d say that falls under number six.Quote:
Originally Posted by KOAE
You’re welcome. That is a perfectly valid choice if you are at the end of your Clash road.Quote:
Originally Posted by KillenTime
If you’re being serious, I wish you luck in whatever you do next.
If you’re just being sarcastic, that’s okay too. Sarcasm is my favorite flavor. Cynicism is a close second. You’re getting all kinds of points in my book!
If you're going to take a break from war, why not have an 11 or two rush to 12? That would give them time to catch some stuff up. Most of the 12s we're seeing (our few included) are nothing but th11s with a th12 and siege factory. It's better than throwing everything out and pouting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Confirmed and I stand corrected. Hilarious...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConfuzed1
It all depends on the individual making the decisions...Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper139
Excellent! You’re checking all the boxes for me now! Thanks for being so accommodating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Never underestimate a good pout. Tough on a clan full of 10s to ask a couple to rush up and then ask them to be super doners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper139
Let me know when you have yours ready and we can do some FC's and post the results here in the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulBounded
You're welcome. I try.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConfuzed1
Enjoy the pout then. :smirk: But i was mistaken, i thought you had some 11s. As a nearly max 10, the thought of rushing straight to 12 just to donate and be useless for anything else for quite some time, I quite understand. Not attractive at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
You must have you missed it the other 38 times that he has posted it in the three or four threads on the topic and oh BTW, this is a derail since this thread is about engineering and not someone's tale of woe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper139
Back on point, here is a nice base on it's way to an engineered TH12, well someday...
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...1#post11756155
There is a myth going around on the forums. The myth is that maxing your base somehow ensures you an even match. It is not true.
Matchmaker is much improved and even with up to 20% engineers in the lineup we get good even matches war after war.
Maxing does nothing to prevent matching engineers. There is a sticky thread of 102 pages to illustrate this fact in the clan wars forum. But just because you matched an engineer does not mean it is uneven. Both sides still have a good chance of winning.
Bases are only truly maxed for a very short time and most are never maxed at all. Once they are fully maxed, you upgrade the town hall, so your base is only maxed for the couple of weeks, then it becomes a baby TH (next level). The vast majority of players pull the trigger on the next town hall early. I myself spent a little over a year at TH10, and never truly maxed. I still had many levels to go on my heroes, and a few walls when an event offered up advantages to builders that tempted me into going to 11.
Because there is a variety of levels at any town hall, and greater range as the town halls increase, there is no such thing as an even match, even among "maxers". One player is new to the level. Another has been working on his base for a year. One player upgraded wizard towers first. Another decided splash damage defenses add more weight so he upgraded AT and Cannons. A third poured his gold into walls until army camps and key war troops were full strength. All can lay claim to the title of "maxer" but their bases will play very differently in war. And these differences mean there is no even match.
But there are good close matches, with all varieties of lineups. Maxed. Engineered. Potioneers. Rushed. X.5. Hybrid.
Part of the problem is what we define as an even match. If you look at your war log and it shows your last 50 as 25-25 +/- 5, chances are you are getting even matches. If you expect to win 90% of your wars, your matches are probably not even. For every winner there is a loser. If you define "even" match to mean a match we will win automatically, then you and I are using different definitions of the word "even".
I have heard the call before: "Engineering is dead. Upgrade now or face dire consequences." I have always waited for the change, and my engineered accounts have never suffered. So when you tell me something is coming, I still take a wait and see approach. So far, I have not been wrong. Yet.
Play the game the way you enjoy playing. Clash on.
Here's a solution. To be able to put someone in war, they must first have every building from the previous TH down.
Yes essentially all you have to do is give up leadership of your clan...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConfuzed1
Or rush hard and fail in war...
Or push hard for the next year and sit out of war...
Best to not listen to the trolls who want you to quit.
However you should probably consider merging for a time until you have some 12s.
This patch is tough on smaller clans, let's just call it the destroyer of lesser clans.
Just hold the clan on a mini and come back to it later, you can't fight this updates balancing issues.
You must be under the impression that an engineered base is only a base that does not have all units in place. Hence the buckets of nonsense I see in the forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazatin18
Well the most common are defenseless(ish), .5s and .11s. All are missing something. I would imagine the all level one defenses may become a thing. There are carefully groomed bases with only certain troops upgraded but they usually go hand in hand with avoiding certain heavy defenses. That will change over time. The definition of engineer seems to vary greatly based on the eye of the beholder. Perhaps you could elaborate on yours?Quote:
Originally Posted by iBork
Yup they have no idea what engineering is here...Quote:
Originally Posted by iBork
Engineering is nothing more than using the MM to gain an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper139
Trash engineers were dealt with long ago, and sub .5s were nerfed a few months ago.
lvl 1 defenses will not work for th11s or lower, it might be justifiable at 12... but it would still be a waste imo.
Bad engineers are still somewhat viable and 97% of what you see are the bad ones.
The good ones have about 2x-4x times as many hits for your top bases as you do without using max minis.
That is all it is, only TH13 will stop it...somewhat... even if they enforce weights more than they have so far it won't matter.
As long as the War MM calculates defensive weight, engineering a base is always possible. The most dangerous engineered bases aren't what you have described. This is why I laugh when people think SC has solved that problem. It will never happen as long as the defensive weight is calculated into the War MM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper139
They can still engineer for now, they didn’t hamper them by much or at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faruque
Because what you defined as engineered is very narrow minded, Engineering is about optimizing bases for war, at any form, Souldbonded has been giving you a clue but U did not get itQuote:
Originally Posted by KOAE
Actually I think it’s you giving the contentious definition. Sure offence lopsiding is one major form of engineering and not the only one (manicuring is definitely another), but not every thoughtful choice about base building for war is engineering. The key definition I think all could agree on is that engineering is base building aimed at impacting the matchmaking process itself in the sense of aiming to deliver a weaker enemy that different build choices might deliver. So it’s not “any form” or you’re left needing to say every single one of us who ever thought “now what is it best I upgrade next with this free builder?” is an engineer, which is plainly not so when, e.g. a th11 wonders if maxing the eagle they own first rather than maxing infernos they own is better bang for the buck defending in war.Quote:
Originally Posted by samratulangi
Soulbonded’s definition works as “any form of min/maxing” is equivalent to “any form of seeeking matchmaker advantage”. Yours only works where “optimizing” is narrowed falsely to specific MM affecting choices, as opposed to just developing in any smart way.
OP however just misunderstands, confusing the “build all before th12” with the SC push to remove engineered advantage in war. It’s a complementary step, not the actual new thing they said was coming.
Still very much alive our clan of maxers are in an extremely lopsided war with engineered bases and anchors. Just won’t be many new ones climbing up.
Wow. Thanks for clarifying. Except i missed the part with anything specific. You cant discount defense completely or you go back to max heroes, max defenses, with bare minimum offense. I will agree that no matter what changes they make, there will be an optimal path. Personally, the engineering label has no real meaning. Other than the way "i" do it is right and "you" are a dirty engineer. A little more tweaking of the matchmaker and I don't think the draconian drop everything measure would have been needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by iBork
Do you want him to write a thesis?Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper139
No. But I tire of the your definition of engineering doesn't include my master plan to rule the world and I'm smarter than you morons posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindSyphon
By no means it is the end of engineering. Just tripled an engineered TH11 with no spells in a multiplayer attack. Easy loot.
Don’t you cry tonight, I still love you babe...
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Piper139
10char
I was killing time spamming miners and I don't like it. It didn't affect me before, but I've noticed a lot of rushed th12s with eagle and infernos. That makes farming (when I have to climb with mass miners/mass bowlers if I drop with goblins) somewhat harder, compared to steamrolling .5/engineered bases. I might have to switch to Barch...
If someone confirms that theory that they reduced the weight of Eagle, infernos, etc. (I saw it on Reddit and I treat it as a rumor until the war community says something), then SC actually killed engineering and maxing (or, essentially, anything that isn't strategic rushing), since the weight of stuff like max Pekkas and DE troops that are nearly useless on the endgame will skyrocket in comparison to everyone else, creating mismatches against people that SinOfDusk their way to th10+ after the good stuff.
Probably my mini account lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by RagnarFurias
Thank you also for using correct grammar. You're really good at this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Sorry but this is not true, when someone upgrades in a smart way with respect to war that is optimising for war, which is engineering. You get different extents of course but as soon as you optimise vs the war matchmaker (war) then Its engineering, anything else is a tapdance ti tey escape the label. Why would an eagle or inferno upgrade be a better choice, Its war impact vs war weight, no one thinks in terms of war impact vs gold cost, and If they are the not optimising for war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
sam is spot on.
So is it engineering also if I upgrade bowlers in the lab instead of goblins?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
I am confident that English is not your first language but I didn't define engineering as anything more than a way to defeat the MMA. How people do that isn't complex - roster and base (both offense and defense) engineering.Quote:
Originally Posted by samratulangi
We’re going to need to disagree there or to me it reserves anything other than mindless random upgrade button mashing as engineering, which would be a caricature. Engineering is not the same thing as just plain thinking about what you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
There’s a perfectly sensible question in “what adds more effective dps firepower to my growing base?” that goes nowhere near ideas about war weight for an answer. So, for example, totally apart from war weight, an archer tower is better choice of upgrade for war defence effectiveness than a mortar for a th9-11 if you’re choosing between one those two defences for your next upgrade - it just does a better job of concentrating more effective fire on a wider range of the more dangerous troops. Similarly a th12 might ask, “would my inferno or my eagle be the better choice for next defence to upgrade to max given what armies I mostly get attacked with and how those are deployed?”.
No tap dancing involved there, you can genuinely care not one fig about trying to get any matchmaker min/max advantage while still being thoughtful about what upgrades to choose first to make your base most effective in defending in whatever war the spin serves up.
Yup. Im happy! Really happy
Nope, not happy yet. I won't be happy till they get erradicated or at very least, till they get matched against others engineers only. This way everyone will be happy, they can continue playing their way without injuring the fp war community.
It’s good that sc is finally taking steps toward giving us a fair and even war scene.
such a lengthy post in a thread like this, and no one comments..... c'mon folks !Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaTroll
Anyway, in reply:
I've not heard the myth that maxing ensures an even match,
but I do know that a newbee to the game can ruin everything for themself by upgrading the TH at every possible moment without thought (or possibly knowledge) of then not getting the same loot from lower TH lvls.
Also some defences a level or two away from your own TH lvl's max is not really considered engineering.
Engineered bases are never first accounts but rather made by folks who already know the game from higher levels. Therefore those players are using their knowledge to take advantage from players who are not that far yet, also those players at a disadvantage can't retract and undo their TH upgrade and follow the engineer path themselves - putting them at a second disadvantage. They face the otpion of having unfair wars, quit war for a long time or start over.
None of these options are good for the player community.
Ergo, engineering ruins the game in a certain way, and definately makes CW not open and fair to all.
So, yes, I am very happy that action has (and will be further) taken against this kind of game play.
No, it is not forcing players to play the way that SC thinks is right, but it is limitng the ways 'older' players can bully 'younger' ones and take advantage that cannot be addressed nor countered nor adapted to in an acceptable period of time by those at the recieving end.
Have Fun
TS
EDiT: As to win streaks and 90% win expectancy: you are entirely leaving out the fact of skill or thoughtput into a war attack. Yes if matches are even by strength of player bases, then there will be those clans whose players will be more willing to think about how to attack a base than others, those who have more experience than others or a better working team effort in clan. I don't think anyone will complain loosing to better skill or better team work, a fair win is just that: fair.
You don't have to give up anything, let alone leadership, and I never said any such thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindSyphon
Whether you choose to upgrade now, or wait until later, that is your choice to make.
Are you referring to me as the troll who wants you to quit? I don't want anyone to quit. For selfish reasons, I want everyone to love the game and continue to play it for as long as I do. The last thing I want is for the developers to decide it has come to the end of the line, and the best way to ensure that to happen is for people to continue to play and continue to pay! But if you no longer enjoy the game, then quitting may be the right thing for you. Only you can decide.
There is no need to give up your clan, by merging into another, if that isn't what you want. But if you do have some people who would like to participate in a few wars, while others take a break to farm up their bases, and still be able to go back home to your clan afterward, hit me up in a PM.
The truth is that it has never been easy to lead a small clan. I can empathize with your situation, as I have lead my current clan, and started many others, from nothing. Guess what though... It isn't easy leading a large clan either. The challenges that face small clans are not unique to them alone. In my own clan we've had some dark times, and just briefly, I considered walking away. But I gave it some thought overnight, and by the next day I was ready to recommit and make it work. I realized that the core of loyal guys that we had, as bad as some of them were at attacking, was more valuable to me than a clan that never lost a war, but felt cold. I rededicated myself to my guys, and helped many of them learn to become better attackers.
We have been through thick and thin, and we lose more wars than we win. We push and push to get better though, and we have come a long way, but we have a long way yet to go. Failure doesn't have to be the end. Failure is the best teacher you could ever have! We tried league war, which CLEARLY wasn't for us... Lol... We've been on both the winning side and the losing side of some very fun and great battles, as well as some really bad ones. When we fall, we get back up, dust ourselves off, and try again. It's what we do. We've been at a disadvantage in so many wars, and there have been times where we have been mathematically eliminated before everyone does their attacks. But in our clan, it's every attack, every war, win or lose.
At the moment, things have been going very well for us. Several of my guys seem to have had some things click in their heads, and they are attacking better than they ever have before. My point being, that we have been at a disadvantage many times, but that didn't stop us from powering through, and giving it our best. Your clan can choose to do the same... Or not.
no, not happy. Less possibilities to play.
From the point of view of a strictly non engineered clan, it is a welcome change to finally see this change. Although it will undoubtedly take some time for it to disappear completely, this is a great start.
On the other hand, it does further limit style of play (even if it was something that should have been addressed a long time ago before some dropped thousands of gems making engineered bases), but this is not the first time SC has done this ... TH sniping also have another style of play that was also eradicated. Only difference is that engineering made SC money, where as TH sniping didn't, which is probably why is stayed around so long. Wouldn't be surprised if some new way to play the system is found and exploited in its place though ...
that is exactly what i do on my bases, most of them has all builder working 60-80% of the time, till now, so where do you draw the line?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
it has been found many years ago, as u see Bangkok b@war still winning, and believe me they will keep winning till years to come as long as they r not bored, and they dont do engineering like most of you thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by zerihal
no, not necessarily, bowlers are fairly heavy and especially after the nerf the decision to upgrade may not optimise your base for war considering Its role in clan and the other troops you have upgraded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bkt26
most of bangcock for example does goblins instead of bowlers, few even unlock bowlers.
So those High WS clans, seems doing total opposite of what people here think, or maybe they r just forget to unlock many troops, including bowler, Witch, Lava, Miners, or maybe they r so very low skilled so they can not understand how to use those troopsQuote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
Giving up leadership in War isn’t the same as giving up leader, but merging is a better suggestion than telling people to recruit multiple th12s or cry and quit.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheConfuzed1
This is not a problem for me I have 2 TH12 accts but a lot of people don’t.
I don’t draw a line, unless someone comes out and directly says what motivated the choice they made. That’s because it’s down to intention, motivation - what they think they are doing in choosing that - and we can’t read minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by samratulangi
What we can do is go by what people say and by some modest conjecture on what we observe. Leaving off or substantially delaying dropping infernos and/or an eagle, for example: there’s no reason for huge numbers of war focused player to choose that build which doesn’t reference war weight and matchmaking after the crossing the point of being settled in at a new th level where you have the basics of camps, lab, cc and at least one barracks of each type done, and are talking about choices for order of subsequent defence structure upgrades. “Wanting to build a unique and artistic base” I’ll buy as an alternate tiny minority reason, if some further evidence is there that the choice has little to do with war (like that base not in fact being in that many wars).
Answering ”where do you draw the line?” strikes me as a pit trap for those who think widespread engineering isn’t good for the game: it’s inviting them down some pointless rabbit track for others to snipe at wording of replies, while avoiding the key issue of why some might think the fact of unfair matches was somehow good for the game.
Can any opposite clan have objective view on fair or not, given the MM based on weight things, except all bases are totally or near maxed TH12 there will always be unfair matchesQuote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
Nah, if I draw a line it’s a pretty pink one marking the triangle between my almost fully weaponised town hall, the upgraded max inferno, the upgrading to max eagle, and the other inferno I haven’t got a builder free to get maxed yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulBounded
As an engineer myself, I am glad because the only reason I did it was to stay competitive. And I’ve also suggested this implementation as well
engineering is simply optimisation with respect to war, it overlaps partially with gold rationalisation decisions but that doesnt mean Its not engineering. If someone takes a decision that gives a base a war advantage over another decision then that is engineering, everything else is a discussion of extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
i will concede that technically it would be very difficult to remove intent totally from any definition of engineering, and i think listening to Sam Harris and Noam Chompsky debate intent on youtube would be a far more interesting use of time than listening to me and you hammer it out, but Im sure many wont have the interest or time so Illl try recap shortly.
Sam harrris makes a very sound argument why technically intent of actions matter, and academically he is correct, Chomsky however counter with the following 2 practical arguments which i find very convincing
1 people often decieve wih regard to intent, not just other but themselves (i think a very common manifestation in the forum, Bobo a prime example, he is utterly convinced he does not engineer and I am 100 percent convinced he believes this)
2 intent at the end of the day, with the exception possibly of predicting furture behavior, doesnt really effect the impact level of an action, If martians or bangcock are just creating "crazy fun" wierdo accounts, they still run a steamroller over the poor clan that has to spend 2 days trying to understand why on earth supercell matched there clans as a reasonable war match
I'll add my own comment that besides 1, deception, people are also not fully aware of why they do things, or example someone in the old days may have delayed inferno on a townhall 10 and focusing on point defence upgrades first without ever directly considering war weight, Iether simply following orders from more experiences clanmates, or having the tacit understanding that archer towers dont effect matchaking much where as infernoes would, but this decision still based on the underlying fact (maybe) that archer towers are a very lightweight defence where as infenoes are very heavy.
So allthough a perfect technical definition of engineering would be "the conscious optimisation of a base upgrade strategy with respect to war" due to the fact that people are deception (to others and themselves) regarding intent as well as the fact that intent doesnt effect the result of the direct impact of the behavior (a highly optimised clan will still create a unpleasant war experience for the opponents wether an accident or a plan) the more usefull definition is the simple "the optimisation of a base with respect to war".
If you want to include intent, you can see clumsyness of this definition encountered daily on the forum, poster after poster doing the "Im not an engineer" tap dance, allthough comical, gets a little old. There have been a few well known clans coming on to argue their case (my builders are busy, i cant get round to my mortars, i was upgrading point first, i dont have time to raid enough elixor to Max all my troops) , but Its the same story again and again, engineers looking for an escape hatch where they upgrade sensibly, others engineer.
martians dont engineer, they use mind power, bangcock just love Max heroes, winterfell upgrade sensibly, bobo "did it as a joke". If you bring intent into the definition the term starts to become meaningless, because as you mentioned you cant see into other people minds, and often not even into your own.
I agree all we can do is observe the result of a build strategy and the intention is usually not possible to determine, but now to your incredibly loaded question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
You could rarther ask why some believe certain base upgrade strategiese or specific units (heroes) should provide slight advantages, rather than why people want unfair matches.
This is something that has been discussed, and the arguments are as follows
1 the game needs to have items that create a psychological reward system to encourage raiding and gemming. Heroes are a great example, who is going to grind heroes in a zero sum game? Yes a few will but most wont be bothered. You need to know heores, and the effort (or gems) they take will provide some tangoble war benefit over not grinding them. It keeps clans active (farming), creates a reward response in brain (you know how awesome strong heroes are and it pushes you to grind them ans makes you feel good having them), and provides critical revenue for supercell (or we wouldnt have a game). Make everything perfect parity and revenue and farming activity drop substantially, in a negative spiral that is not good for the game. Of course hugely uneven matches are much worse for the game, but for me the problem has always been the extent and type of advantage given, not that advantage is given.
2 a weaker argument, but also relevant, is that for many people upgrade strategy is really the only truely stratgeic pat of the war strategy game we all love. To reward those this more game experience and knowledge, who put more effort and interest into understanding the metrics and more disipline into upgrading intelligently, for many should be (and many would argue was) a core and intentional part of the game. It provides some analysis and thinking space that makes the game more interesting.
Having said that Ill be the forst to admit the extent and type pf engineering advantage supercell allowed was a disaster for the game and was a serious thread to the long term viability of clash, and Im glad they are reversing course.
Quite agree, Viking. It’s a muddy issue when you factor in self deception and ignorance (“just doing what x in my clan said I should”). For a very large number of cases however it is clear, as you get people themselves coming out and saying it. So I don’t think we should let the muddy edges matter too much... but neither should we go with any offered definition that makes it the case that anyone who won’t admit engineering must be tap dancing or drawing some line right in front of their own toes, nor to view the opposite of engineering as a process of random thoughtless dumb upgrades.
Very long post, so it must be true, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
but anyway well written, fully agree
accordng to Tom’s post i am not an engineers then. i was having very wrong perception of myself
Pushing player to build all the buildings before going to new th. I think this is not a good step by sc because coc must be free to play (I mean don't force anyone to build all those buildings)that must be players choice whether not to build or not. And coc is a strategic game it's a kind of strategy so face it without fear.
I know non engineers like me have the advantage now and we are happy but I don't think engineers will be happy.'"'it's just my opinion""
you have just created an infinite loop, intention doesnt matter, and results dont matter, so no bases can ever be engineered.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulBounded
I am actually in favour of looking only at results, .5 under my definition used to be an engineered base, now its a clueless base. Go back a year or so and it makes sense to discuss a clan of .5 bases with a win streak of 40 as engineered, now a clan of .5 bases and a win streak of 40 would not be usefull to describe as engineered, as base optimisation is unlikely to be the reason for their win streak now days.
For me people engaging in building .5 bases now days are no more engineers than the clueless rushers of early clash who rushed to shall 10 with infenoes and level 5 barb King thinking they were going to get a war advantage.
I agree it seams odd to try to exclude people who are actually trying to engineer but failing as engineers, but again i think intent isnt so important, Its the results that are exprienced wether someone accidently engineers very well, or tries to engineer but fails, or tries to engineer and succeeds, or tries not to engineer, and suceeds in not doing so,
supercell kind of had to do this, Otherwise the 9.12 would have taken over, i understand penalty weight or tax may have been a better option, or simply weighing things more apprpriatly, but i think they wanted to both reduce engineering advantage and the perception of engineering advantage, and thought this was more effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meshreyas
under my definition random thoughless dumb upgrades would actually count as engineering If the result was a clan identical in terms of accounts and win streak to martians or bangcock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
i do understand why you and bobo probably roll your eyes when an engineer with highly manicured accounts and a triple digit win streak is all like "Hey man, when you think about it, arent we all like engineering really". Hmm, maybe, but your engineering to a much greater extent than the average clasher, and dont pretend Its not a massive contribution to your win streak.
at the same time, i roll my eyes when I see forumer number 1026 who randomly draws a line directly in front of his toes and calls anyone who follows an upgrade strategy passed that line a manipulating engineer, where as he is just following a sensible path, or is only trying to avoid disadvantage, or is on a path to maxing, or "has busy builders".
If SC really wanted to end engineering, among the multiple options available, this might have been the worst and poorly communicated. You can talk all about the upcoming feature, and say this is only a step, but it seems as this is a step in the wrong direction.
Well they stopped us, even though my accounts are just rushed, and If cant get a war I guess engineered is cured. This is the silliest way to do it, Im specifically refering to not supplying matches, Im just gonna play less and gem less, and trust me with 16 accounts, i think 8 12 and 8 11, supercell will miss players like me. Ill still gem a bit, but for war where is spend most gems, if i cant get a war Im of course not gonna gem anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
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Originally Posted by Faruque
Engineering a base isn't an achievement, buddy.
When your way of playing steps on a lot of paying customers, then your way of playing will end pretty quickly.
/Affront
You are so correct, bravo SC for taking quick and immediate action on this issue before it gets out of hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Affront
Waitaminute, is this a necro from 2016?
.. you made me look.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
Yeah, an era has come to an end with this upgrade (maybe, I assume that REAL Engineers are figuring it out and that it's only the followers that are complaining) ..
SuperCell may not always saddle the same day as they ride, but when they do, they don't go back.
/Affront
Don’t be disingenuous, posts like this make it clear that you happily self-identify as an engineer:Quote:
Originally Posted by samratulangi
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...4#post11754804 My “definition” such as it is, makes it automatic that if you tell us you are, then you are.
I think you’re right there, the MM-impacting intent drives the choice even if circumstances make the choice ineffective in what it aims at. No loop there despite what Viking says, such a base is just better called “a badly engineered one trying something that isn’t working”.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulBounded
In any case none of this definition stuff actually matters. There will always be people trying to min/max their way around anything and far more others just playing the game without any attempt to do that (whether that be from not knowing, not caring, or knowing, caring and actively rejecting that option). The game developer needs to act when the min/maxing runs out of control, becomes too dominant and mainstream, and excessively impacts the game fun of the regular non min-maxing player base or even threatens to become a norm. SC are doing that and rightly so, as we’d reached a point where every third or so Timmy Th9 had missing xbows and was calling itself “engineered” and unfair war matches were epidemic. It’s quite a bit better now, but still not there, especially for lighter total overall weight clans.
Given this it’s pretty obvious why shutting down offence lopsided advantage would be a big step forward on tackling the engineering problem. There will be other min-maxing out there calling itself (and that we may well call) “engineering” but provided that’s confined to a tiny minority and can’t be done by monkey skill level copy/paste and spread virally, then the game will be in a better place.
engineering wont die.
engineering being referred here has been dead for months now.
Great post.Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaTroll
End of Engineers. News to me. I wish it was the end. I just got matched up with a clan with a TH10 low defense account with the usual mass dragons/double zap quake offense to easily take out my top 2 bases. Well it will be a draw again maybe they suck and will not figure out our other bases. End of engineers? Ha!
Agree with a lot even what I snipped. A proper matchmaker would be able to accurately weigh offense and defense and match, regardless of builds. SC has a poor track record of accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaTroll
Unfortunately, play the way you enjoy, no longer includes upgrading when you want, and matchmaking now has a 30 page thread of I cannot find a match. So, play and build how you want, as long as everything is built and you don’t want to war.
20 hours waiting on a 10 v 10, is not the way I want to play.
And just how lopsided are those rosters? A couple of engineers or rushed accounts will not cause a 20 hour search.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
They never did. Even adding a few TH8 and 9 to our normal 10-12 doesn't add much.
More rushed to TH12, than engineered, but there are some manicured, min-max, optimized, whatever you want to call them. Down to a few maxed th8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuitari
We are the same. Quite a few went to 12 early. I didn't so 11's are actually in the minority with our wars now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
Those of us who were engineered ( a very small number ) either dropped defense or simply aren't warring. A few .5's but that's never really had that much effect on match time.
While I'm against sandbagging ( or whatever you want to call it,) I admit to being interested in what some of these low defense level 12's will draw.
If it's decent 10's or above I don't see the advantage.
We matched, they are a combo plate of maxed, rushed, engineered. Looks somewhat equal, but haven’t looked too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuitari
I amnot sure that waiting 20 hours, prepping 24 hours and then warring 24 hours for a 10v10, is going to keep me interested long term.
Clan war is designed to play by a clan consisting of more than one person, if you choose to play by yourself, stop complaining about waiting for war matching for 20 hours. A real clan war is not 10vs10 or 5vs5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
Thank you very much and you have a good day sir!
I can certainly understand that. Waiting nearly a day for a match would cause me to lose interest as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
I believe it just needs to be understood that engineers must start to do what they've been telling everyone else to do for a couple years now.
Adapt.
Sure they can still go for the low hanging fruit, ( defeating low strength clans) but I just don't see the fun in that and people will probably just pass them by at some point.
That and there's just no knowing what SC has planned in the future for matchmaking.
My suggestion would be to just drop the defense when you are ready and prepare for a battle.
I absolutely disagree. Not every clan can run large or mid sized wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashMonkLooting
10v10 or 5v5 is still a clan war. Lost count of the 10 vs 10 I was involved in with my previous clan.
Let's face it, no one is playing a single account nowadays, If you have at least 5 people in your clan, each would have at least 3. If you are a main dude in the clan, at least create some filler accounts to get a 20vs20 match.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuitari
That's not necessarily true. I only have 2 accounts and the mini was just to test SC ID. Many people also don't keep all of their accounts in the same clan.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashMonkLooting
It's a social thing as many of us have made friends elsewhere.
I still know a lot of people with only 1 village. Most don't have the time or desire to run numerous ones.
Thank you for the knowledge and definition of Clan War. I had not read that before, helpful. I am also surprised that my previous 5v5 and 10v10 wars were imaginary and not real clan wars. More knowledge. Maybe you could also let me know if there is an ignore button on the forums as you seem to be in the know.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashMonkLooting
Thank you kind sir, and I am having a great day. I hope that you have a great day and even a great week.
I was nearly maxed when the update hit, and I play only a single account. Im sure im not alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashMonkLooting
I might also mention that I find the idea of filler accounts to be distasteful although occasionally necessary.
I would prefer that everyone have a chance to contribute. Contribute beyond just being a number on the map.
the top 3 bases have all defences including eagle and infenoes, rest of defence on those accounts is lagging, they defence isnt engineered Its noob rushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuitari
I didn't tell anyone to do anything. I simply listed the options. If you feel that the list is incomplete, please feel free to add to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindSyphon
This is very profound. It's not just the truth that factor's into the minds of consensus, but the perception of that truth (or untruth) as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
Quicklyish, which is similar to another term oft-used by Super Cell--soonish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Affront
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Originally Posted by ClashMonkLooting
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Originally Posted by Nuitari
Ahh the dangers of making such broad generalizations without data to back you up, you are often proven wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Salkin101
If he is only playing 1 account normally and maxxing 11 about to go to 12, what is he doing in a clan with 5v5? I don't think this is a possible scenerioQuote:
Originally Posted by Gorbash098
You do know that 10v10 is the most common war size right?Quote:
Originally Posted by ClashMonkLooting
I disagree with the title of this thread. I think there are still plenty of engineers out there.
I should know. We see them all the time. War we just matched has us at a 7 eagle and 11 inferno base advantage because they try to engineer. A th11 with all level 1 defenses including level 1 eagle and infernos on their side it's hilarious