Clan Wars: The huge misconception.

I see many, many opinions, beliefs, complaints, etc., etc. All of which have nothing to do with the true reason for having bad wars. SC will not tell you, they can’t just come out and say it, so i will help you guys out.


First, you guys really need to stop using the word engineering. There is no such thing, not in the eyes of SC. The term they use is called, "lopsided". What that means is a base that has max offense with very little to no defense.

A base that has a good amount of defense, even if not all maxed and with some units missing, is not seen as lopsided in the eyes of the MM. Now you guys see a base that you define as engineered and you think the MM is matching you with engineers. That's mistake #1.

Mistake #2: The MM does not look at individual bases when doing the war match calculation. It just add up all the defense and offense of the entire clan into one number. With the new MM, as far as I can tell, all it does is look at the ratio of defense vs offense then decides what group to put you in. So if a clan has an overall high offense to defense ratio, then the MM considers the clan to be lopsided and matches them with a lopsided clan.

HOWEVER, since the MM calculates the clan and not each base as a separate entity, a clan CAN have a few lopsided bases, yet, still have the defense to offense ratio of a “normal” clan. This is why you are getting matched up with “engineering” clans as you call it.

The key to having good wars, has nothing to do with engineered vs engineer max vs max, engineer vs max, all those “opinions” are all misconceptions. The MM is just a calculator, it does not look at a base and say: “Well, well, this is engineered so I better match them with another engineered clan”.

The reason people have bad wars, is because they have an out of balance line up. What do I mean by line up? It’s the composition of bases you have in clan. If your clan is top heavy, you will get unfair matches. The rule you should go by, is to have all TH #’s in war. From TH11’s all the way down to TH3’s. And you want to have less high level TH #’s and lesser and lesser TH #’s as you go down. Example: 1 TH11, 2 TH10’s, 3 TH9’s, 4 TH8’s, 5 TH7’s, 6 TH6’s…. A ratio like that. It does not matter if these bases are maxed, engineered, lopsided, upside down, from the moon, jupiter…. does not matter.

Now, if you really want to say goodby to bad wars, you ALSO upgrade your bases smartly. You want to stair step your base upgrades. What do I mean by that? You never stop at a TH and max it, you “stair step it” into the next TH. As you move up, you never max the defense of a TH up until it’s a TH11. Any other fixated ideas, self imposed rules that you should max your base, are just that. It’s a preference and nothing more. When it comes to war, those preferences don’t bypass the mathematical axiom.


That’s all you need to know about wars. Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iBork

First, you guys really need to stop using the word engineering. There is no such thing, not in the eyes of SC. The term they use is called, "lopsided". What that means is a base that has max offense with very little to no defense.

A base that has a good amount of defense, even if not all maxed and with some units missing, is not seen as lopsided in the eyes of the MM. Now you guys see a base that you define as engineered and you think the MM is matching you with engineers. That's mistake #1.

Mistake #2: The MM does not look at individual bases when doing the war match calculation. It just add up all the defense and offense of the entire clan into one number. With the new MM, as far as I can tell, all it does is look at the ratio of defense vs offense then decides what group to put you in. So if a clan has an overall high offense to defense ratio, then the MM considers the clan to be lopsided and matches them with a lopsided clan.

HOWEVER, since the MM calculates the clan and not each base as a separate entity, a clan CAN have a few lopsided bases, yet, still have the defense to offense ratio of a “normal” clan. This is why you are getting matched up with “engineering” clans as you call it.

The key to having good wars, has nothing to do with engineered vs engineer max vs max, engineer vs max, all those “opinions” are all misconceptions. The MM is just a calculator, it does not look at a base and say: “Well, well, this is engineered so I better match them with another engineered clan”.

The reason people have bad wars, is because they have an out of balance line up. What do I mean by line up? It’s the composition of bases you have in clan. If your clan is top heavy, you will get unfair matches. The rule you should go by, is to have all TH #’s in war. From TH11’s all the way down to TH3’s. And you want to have less high level TH #’s and lesser and lesser TH #’s as you go down. Example: 1 TH11, 2 TH10’s, 3 TH9’s, 4 TH8’s, 5 TH7’s, 6 TH6’s…. A ratio like that. It does not matter if these bases are maxed, engineered, lopsided, upside down, from the moon, jupiter…. does not matter.

Now, if you really want to say goodby to bad wars, you ALSO upgrade your bases smartly. You want to stair step your base upgrades. What do I mean by that? You never stop at a TH and max it, you “stair step it” into the next TH. As you move up, you never max the defense of a TH up until it’s a TH11. Any other fixated ideas, self imposed rules that you should max your base, are just that. It’s a preference and nothing more. When it comes to war, those preferences don’t bypass the mathematical axiom.


That’s all you need to know about wars. Cheers.

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dude, you have to explain why you believe what is true to be true, otherwise the whole post is fluff and we cant have a discussion.

are you joining the CWSF war tommorow at 13:00 GMT.

in feel like i need to meet you in person to understand how you roll.

Well, now that all that is settled. If I remember correctly OP, were you not complaining of unfair wars not so long ago? Why is it that you got unfair wars if you know the secret to success. Perhaps this is a bunch of assumptions that may or may not work.

You lost me with the first sentence where you said SC doesn't use the word engineering.

Directly quoted from the 'Clan war match Making Improvements'

"We wanted to share with you that we are making improvements to how the algorithm functions in order to address 'engineered bases' in the matchmaking feature......."

Anything else you had to say after that was pretty much a moot point when you don't even acknowledge that SC does in fact recognize engineering for what it is.

Why do you suggest not maxing defenses of a TH level when dropping new ones costs more in added weight than upgrading existing ones? Do you mean don't max ALL defenses at a TH level?

OP - you still haven't explained, if the MM is using a single number for the clan, why it is now refusing to match clans with very strange rosters (eg TH11s then TH9s, then TH3s) at all. I know one who searched for about 80 hours - before matching to an identical clan. Rather strange when their clan totals are about the same as a TH8 clan.

Another thing OP hasn't explained is how some heavier maxer clans (maxer style base builds on th10/11s, not all fully max bases) are still - even increasingly - pulling engineered clans.

I am still in the process of testing the new matchmaker, and it is going slowly, but I don't believe OP is anywhere close to how it works.

My theory right now is this:
1) add up squared offensive weight and squared defensive weights for each account
2) sort the accounts by total weight
3) do 1-2 for the other clan too
4) calculate the sum of squared differences on all positions between clan 1 and clan 2 and store it as A
5) add together the squared values of all offensive weights for all accounts in the clan 1 into number B
6) add together the squared values of all offensive weights for all accounts in the clan 2 into number C
7) add together the squared values of all defensive weights for all accounts in the clan 1 into number D
8) add together the squared values of all defensive weights for all accounts in the clan 2 into number E
9) calculate the total error as: A + (B-C)*(B-C) + (D-E)*(D-E)
10) if the total error is below the smaller threshold for the 2 clans, declare this as a match

I also think there is a limit to how much the threshold can grow and after certain amount of time it doesn't grow anymore.

This theory might be slightly or entirely incorrect though.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

Another thing OP hasn't explained is how some heavier maxer clans (maxer style base builds on th10/11s, not all fully max bases) are still - even increasingly - pulling engineered clans.

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The only thing I can think of is that your clan was the best match for them after a potentially long queue. (Don't quote me on that :))



@ Ibork,

Here is my thought on the current war situation.

Darian has made several statements "play styles will match play styles" and "the matchmaking changes will give a better sense of fairness".

From what I have seen on the forums, my own (now 3 wars under OMMMA) experience, and Darians statements, this update addressed extreme offense over defenses villages (th10 and th11) by prioritizing matching them only with other clans that are using them. An explanation why some clans with defensless bases are seeing 12+ hour search times. This would meet the statement of "Matching Play styles" (a politically correct term for all versions of working the MMA). Also clans not matching them would have a greater "sense of fairness" in their matches.

I also am of the opinion that they tweaked a few things as well that have indeed resulted in tougher/more even matches based on my previous stated sources.

Roster Engineering still seems very much un-addressed.

.5's and 9.11's and the type may be better accounted for now that they are sorting offense and defense totals separately. The range in offense to defense of weights of those bases is less manipulable as they tend to be fairly close (though 9.11's are pushing the boundary).

In short, including .5's and 9.11's in your roster does not mean you will match an engineered clan. You will however try to be matched to a clan with similar offense and defense levels. My clans 3 matches seem to fit these observations.

-SuperStorm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tomville

Another thing OP hasn't explained is how some heavier maxer clans (maxer style base builds on th10/11s, not all fully max bases) are still - even increasingly - pulling engineered clans.

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we arent seeing this and we are maxer-ish (obviously all some works in progress but rare to have a genuine 0.5). i think they key difference which you already recognised in your comment is 'heavy' maxer clan.....we have a wider th range than you guys, down to 8 and with few or no 11s per war....maybe easier to match....our matching of late has been really solid. we lost our last one on percentage but was mostly our own fault (well mine tbh); recent ones have all felt close enough to be interesting.