Next on war docate should be manicured and rostar engineering

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Originally Posted by blombardo

a ....
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This is NOT a suggestion - its a conversation.
.../wow wall of text. done. sorry for the one or two that read this. I hope its succinct and to the point.

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I read it before my first cup o mud was finished. A conversation, you say? Sure...

We have one of those wars going on right now, where we have a th11, four 10s, a bunch of 9s, three 8s, a 7 and a partirdge in a pear tree.

The other team has more th11s and th10s than I can count on my fingers, all the way down through to the th7 and the partirdge. They have one whole th9 in the mix.

And we are laughing at them. Anyone who has to go to those lengths in a game just to try to have an advantage towards a win must be one heck of a pretty sad group.

Last war, same kind of clan, with the usual th10 attacking th7 kind of stuff. We beat them by something like 8 stars. Oh, we dont win every war, sure, but come on - you have to admit it is pretty hilarious to watch a th9 struggle to get three stars on a th8 in war - the same th8 that three starred that th9 and a th10 that dropped to hit a th7.

Oh sure, all those plenty of extra attacks to try and three star our th10/11 bases help them in terms of having an advantage... but if they take three attacks to take out a mid level th8, just who are they kidding with so little skill?

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Originally Posted by blombardo

Base the wars off of DEFENSES primarily. THAT is the simple easy to understand way of doing it. If players choose to make the decision to skip offense, or rush defenses and get themselves harder wars - then they get what they deserve. If players choose to focus on offense first while keeping defenses low - so that they can get easier wars - then they should also get what they ask for.

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Note, they did this from roughly March 2016 to October 2016, and it was a complete, total, and unmitigated disaster. It directly led to the proliferation of engineered bases that they now have to tackle and is essentially the ROOT CAUSE of the issues they're encountering with the matchmaker today. Supercell, and the war scene in particular, will forever struggle to recover from that shortsighted and poorly thought out decision.

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Originally Posted by blombardo

If Maxer clans dont want to see these light th9 weighted defensive players that have th11 offense - then they should max their defenses to town hall 10 or 11 levels and BOOM.. problem solved... they will never see those light weight engineered clans again.

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Ah yes, of course:
"If you're a th9 and don't want to encounter uber-engineered TH11s roflstomping your clan every war, simply become TH11 with all the maxed defenses. This will take 6+ months at least, or 100's (or even 1000's) of dollars in gems, but you can always sit out of wars in the meantime. BOOM... problem solved."
Yeah, that totally sounds like a viable solution :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by blombardo

The war match system from 380 days ago; last july 2016 was as close to perfect as it ever was. For all the months of the end of 2015 through the beginning of 2016 - ALL WARS were PERFECTLY matched weight to weight-- the top players in every clan of any type had identical weighted values across their top few players.

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No, it was horrible in July 2016. Sure, it worked great for YOU and your TH6.11s "I only maxed miners and spammed them against TH8s and TH9s with my warden" and your NightmareGuild clan was able to rattle off something like 90+ perfect wars, sometimes in as little as 30 minutes, but it was a nightmare (no pun intended) to virtually everyone else who played the game.

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Originally Posted by blombardo

This update they have targeted other specific players with another nerf - those with higher offense and lower defense - again - are being singled out and are being given crazy hard mirrors in war -- those th11's that used to match against 9's are now getting max th10's at 90k as a mirror instead of 70k max 9's. This is completely un fair considering most of those engineered 11's have town hall 8 or lower defenses and you have basically made their entire account obsolete.

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First, if you're a TH11 with TH11 offense, getting a 90k TH10 as your opponent is NOT, in any way, a "crazy hard mirror." You're a TH11!! You should be able to roflstomp 90k TH10s. Learn to attack!
Second, you claim it's "unfair to the TH11s who were used to getting TH9s as their opponents" to have the matchmaker changed, yet you don't spend one nanosecond considering how unfair it was to all those TH9s you got to roflstomp with your TH11s in those 90+ straight perfect wars. Thy name is hypocrisy!

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Originally Posted by blombardo

*Generally all these engineered accounts were made solely and completely for war -- they were still great in war.. so you suffered through the 'rest' of the game because you knew -- once war hit - you could easily get 3 stars 10 spaces above your mirror.... wars were fun and easy.

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yeah, if you were one of those who engaged in obscene engineering. To everyone else who didn't, and who likely make up the majority of the player base? Not so much...

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Originally Posted by blombardo

(yes I know quite a few players -- who have GEMMED a complete th11 with max heroes and max offense - who have 45/45/20 heroes and 100% max troops - on a th7/8 defenseive base -- who struggle to 3 star th9's... not saying anything mean about them - they are nice people - I've known some of them for YEARS... and yes they paid THOUSANDS of dollars to buy these accounts; and now find themselves unable to war because of these changes.

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If they struggle to 3* TH9s with 45/45/20 heroes and max troops, then THOSE PLAYERS ARE TERRIBLE AT THE GAME. What makes you, or anyone, think they deserve to win wars?
Maybe instead of gemming up 45/45/20 accounts they should have spent just a couple of months (or years) FARMING a few things out like the majority of us did. All those 1000's of raids one must execute to build a base organically are what teaches one HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. If you cannot attack your way out of a paper bag your clan should not be racking up massive win streaks...

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Originally Posted by SystematicChaos

Can't we just have fixed roster wars for those who really want fair matches? I believe that can fix a lot of the problems. It won't have the fluidity, but it will lead to fair wars (same roster) for those who want nothing but fair wars. Something where only balanced bases can participate with some tiering in every th level and match tier by tier. Those who are tired of all mismatches can move to this type of wars while others can still continue to do the current random spins.

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Sure you can. Options are work with a league (lots of rules, time restrictions, tough competition), do FW, or wait for SC to implement it. I advise against the last option though, if SC hasn't implemented it yet they've probably got reasons.

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

Note, they did this from roughly March 2016 to October 2016, and it was a complete, total, and unmitigated disaster. It directly led to the proliferation of engineered bases that they now have to tackle and is essentially the ROOT CAUSE of the issues they're encountering with the matchmaker today. Supercell, and the war scene in particular, will forever struggle to recover from that shortsighted and poorly thought out decision.


Ah yes, of course:
"If you're a th9 and don't want to encounter uber-engineered TH11s roflstomping your clan every war, simply become TH11 with all the maxed defenses. This will take 6+ months at least, or 100's (or even 1000's) of dollars in gems, but you can always sit out of wars in the meantime. BOOM... problem solved."
Yeah, that totally sounds like a viable solution :rolleyes:


No, it was horrible in July 2016. Sure, it worked great for YOU and your TH6.11s "I only maxed miners and spammed them against TH8s and TH9s with my warden" and your NightmareGuild clan was able to rattle off something like 90+ perfect wars, sometimes in as little as 30 minutes, but it was a nightmare (no pun intended) to virtually everyone else who played the game.


First, if you're a TH11 with TH11 offense, getting a 90k TH10 as your opponent is NOT, in any way, a "crazy hard mirror." You're a TH11!! You should be able to roflstomp 90k TH10s. Learn to attack!
Second, you claim it's "unfair to the TH11s who were used to getting TH9s as their opponents" to have the matchmaker changed, yet you don't spend one nanosecond considering how unfair it was to all those TH9s you got to roflstomp with your TH11s in those 90+ straight perfect wars. Thy name is hypocrisy!


yeah, if you were one of those who engaged in obscene engineering. To everyone else who didn't, and who likely make up the majority of the player base? Not so much...


If they struggle to 3* TH9s with 45/45/20 heroes and max troops, then THOSE PLAYERS ARE TERRIBLE AT THE GAME. What makes you, or anyone, think they deserve to win wars?
Maybe instead of gemming up 45/45/20 accounts they should have spent just a couple of months (or years) FARMING a few things out like the majority of us did. All those 1000's of raids one must execute to build a base organically are what teaches one HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. If you cannot attack your way out of a paper bag your clan should not be racking up massive win streaks...

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Excellent responses on all points. Thankfully I doubt SC will ever revert back to that horrible time.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Sure you can. Options are work with a league (lots of rules, time restrictions, tough competition), do FW, or wait for SC to implement it. I advise against the last option though, if SC hasn't implemented it yet they've probably got reasons.

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Tank, I know about the leagues. And of course, I'll try to join once I have high enough heroes. But this can not include all clans who want fair wars unless there's something from SC with some incentive. Because, there's no loot, no stars. Although, I'm ready to go past that and put extra effort to be good enough to be in a league, that's not something that should be expected from every player who wants to be a part of fair wars. This process can become much easier and fun if supercell showed some support which they obviously can.

What I'm saying, and I think most of us already know this, is that it's impossible to get fair matches while allowing flexibility. So, having two different pools (one with restrictions/one with fluidity) for wars may be the only way to solve this.

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Originally Posted by SystematicChaos

Tank, I know about the leagues. And of course, I'll try to join once I have high enough heroes. But this can not include all clans who want fair wars unless there's something from SC with some incentive. Because, there's no loot, no stars. Although, I'm ready to go past that and put extra effort to be good enough to be in a league, that's not something that should be expected from every player who wants to be a part of fair wars. This process can become much easier and fun if supercell showed some support which they obviously can.

What I'm saying, and I think most of us already know this, is that it's impossible to get fair matches while allowing flexibility. So, having two different pools (one with restrictions/one with fluidity) for wars may be the only way to solve this.

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Having two different pools would reduce the number of clans in each pool and make the problem worse. Instead of matching against engineers you would just be mismatched against other maxers.

There are actually 3 ways to solve the problem, none of which SC wants to do.
1. Force everyone to put down all available structures (and upgrade them) before you are allowed to do wars ala BB style.
2. Automatically give everyone a war base that is the max base of their current TH level.
3. Scrap the current MM and build a new one from scratch. Plenty of people have come up with good suggestions on how to build a new and fair MM.

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Originally Posted by Trinacria

I read it before my first cup o mud was finished. A conversation, you say? Sure...
but come on - you have to admit it is pretty hilarious to watch a th9 struggle to get three stars on a th8 in war - the same th8 that three starred that th9 and a th10 that dropped to hit a th7.

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Yes I'd enjoy watching that.. just as I love watching the noob go after a defenseless 1 cannon base ;; only to find four level 9 teslas pop out and a 35 slot castle wipe them with 0 stars...

We all can admit that different players have different levels of skill. Personally I am impressed by the players who can identify a max ten or 11 base - quickly break it down into sections and easily identify exactly what mini army compositions to use to go after each section in a multi stage attack that is perfectly executed with little thought...


because-- I will spend 2 or 3 hours watching video after video on youtube - until I find the exact base I am up against.. I will watch, and re watch that many times - then I will practice in game.. 2 or 3 hours later I'll live attack - and fail... from a stupid mistake or bad timeing someplace... Last war - I cleared enemy #1 with my (max) AQ on her last red line - with 1 minion remaining and 5 second on the clock... that was a 90k engineered 10.5 - Imagine me against a 105 or 110k max base? ♥♥♥♥ NOT Happening...

I just can't perform on the level that some of these people can.. its a fact - I admit it.. I'm not an olympic runner.. I'm a bit slower... Knowing that I like to insure that I have a small advantage to help me - level the playing field.

I see other people who really cant even perform at my level -- and once in a while I find skilled gamers who just have it...

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

Note, they did this from roughly March 2016 to October 2016, and it was a complete, total, and unmitigated disaster. It directly led to the proliferation of engineered bases that they now have to tackle and is essentially the ROOT CAUSE of the issues they're encountering with the matchmaker today.

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First - Thanks for your reply- I know it took time to carefully type up... you did a fine job of not insulting anyone and thats commendable considering your obvious hatred towards those who play this way.

-Second - we disagree and there is nothing that either of us can say to the other that will ever change the others mind.

That said --
The developers made a game.. a certain way - and I learned to play it that way. It isnt my fault that what I perceived to be the way it is supposed to be played was different from how they intended it to be played -- because they - as developers- have NEVER given a tutorial - a walk through - a guide - they have NEVER posted anything to help a player understand their vision as developers.

MANY players have done so.. myself included.

I fully believed that the way the game was developed -was done intentionally - and for that reason I promoted everyone to play the way that I had figured out to play.. I was not the first to engineer, - Not sure who was - but I'd wager that the name Martian is in their clan name --- but when our maxer clan got beat by someone who out engineered us - we figured out what that meant.. and we played catchup and quickly got good at the game - the way we thought we were supposed to play it.

Then the developers say -- oh wait a minute.. lets change things.. this isnt right... over and over.. thats rough on any player and can certainly lead to confusion in the forums.

Yes we had lots of fun doing 91 perfect 150 star wars in epic speed... I'd say 30% of our wars were guaranteed wins, 20% were very hard to win (as we were out matched but still got 100% due to me geming heroes and research to the tune of over $1200.00 to catch up to the engineered clans who out engineered us) -- I actually started to think that supercell mis matched clans on PURPOSE to increase cash flow..because players like me - would rather pay and speed up my progress than suffer a loss... Guess what -- sometimes we would have wars that were SO EASY they were boring.. so we would increase the difficulty of the next war - giving ourselves more of a challenge -slowly - and under our own control as we slowly grew as a clan- especially from the th8 to 9 brackets - and again from the 9 to 10 brackets (where we are now; although many of us just skipped ten and went right to 11 for the added offensive ability while still maintaining a mostly th9 below war scene with just a few tens on top to deal with.

I invite you to visit NightmareGuild2 - just say FORUM referral - look at ourlast war vs an asian clan.. and tell me - honestly - that you or anyone you know could handle those 86 to 90k bases... they were engineered extremely well with amazing base designs - that clan deserved to beat us and continue on their streak of 46 wins now -- Their current enemy clan visited us today - and informed us that they have ZERO th11 players in their clan - (this enemy had almost ten accounts with max heroes - max walls etc) So the match making is still feeding that uber engineered clan nice easy matches.. They are only about 4 months ahead of us in defenses and offenses... so we are almost as well designed as them...

But -- now - as always - the clan who engineers more extremely - better and longer -will always win. unless you have some insanely skilled players and luck... I'm not a scrub when it comes to attacking.. I'm just not amazing at it.. so yea -- my max heroes WILL fail on those hard 90k engineered bases.. sometimes I can land a 105k or a 108k... but thats rare. the game is too difficult for many people - its too easy for a few.


-- Any player - when given the instructions on how to play. When told - if you do THIS -- THAT will happen - will be able to make smart choices.

If you tell a player - increase your weight to 55k and you wil no longer get town hall 8 mirrors -- so that player knows to stay below that weight to maintain that level of complexity in the game... that player can then choose.

What this game needs - is an internal system to inform a player -- When you have upgraded X Y AND Z you will now expect to get town hall ____ mirrors in war. That player will then be informed.


What this game HAS now - is a system that keeps secretly changing. one that confuses players. Casual players witha profession, a family and little time do not have the ability to waste countless hours in a forum or on youtube researching the constant changes of a game that is always evolving... they need a game that has a set standard for upgrading - a set system of war matching and thats about it...


Why dont we handle this like in Starcraft?

1 Get each clan to have a war search button that lists basic stats. Defense weight -offense weight - hero levels - clan members - and win/loss ratio

2 start the war search and let it show you ALL other clans that have searches going at that moment - let you sort by stats in a spreadsheet looking sort button - sort by average win % or by defense or offense weight... etc... and allow you to click a button beside the clan that looks interesting to you -- click the button to compare the clans 'fake prep day' listing.. if it looks fair to you - click button and request a join

3 when you push that button to request a match -- (while war match is still automatically looking) you can see that ____ clan has requested a match in war - click here to PREVIEW THE MATCH'-- you can preview it -- and accept or reject it.

this is a secondary add on that allows players to take control of the war match during -- say - the first few minutes of a search... you can choose to use this - or simply sit back and allow it to auto match you.


Doing something like this will do a few things.

1-everyone will see public info on offense/defense weights (this info shouldbe attached to everyones account profile page anyway)
2-clans can do 'friendly wars' and get LOOT AND STARS... solution for so many farm war clans out there...
3 - game can still maintain the 'cant war the same clan multiple times in a row - must war at least 10 or 15 other clans in between' or whatever that rule is.
4- yes some noob clans may accidently accept a war with all their th3's on one side and the enemy having all 11's on the other.. it may be a funny joke for someone to do once in a while.. but who cares? unless your worried that the 3's are all just getting easy epic loot from the 11's .. aka Farm wars... this complaint is not really valid.

This is a WIN WIN idea for everyone and would easily remove 90% of complaints from forums.. cause you could arrange wars in a network of clans - or in other sites - agree on set start times - and simply look for the clans name in the list of available war matches...

yes it can be abused by people wanting to artificially create large win streaks by using burner clans over and over.. but really - who cares? everyone will know.. its not like you can hide something like that... just like the clans who do all th3/6 wars and proudly proclaim that they get 100% every war... sure -- thats great- proud of you - thats not on the same level as maxers doing 100% on maxers... but hey... each to their own.



We need good suggestions --that are simple and that have no negative side effects... this one may work;


-- i still think the old system in 2016 was my fav... it seemed perfect... a player with the knowledge of how to roster engineer- could get consistant wars - EVERY TIMe - hands down - no questions asked - no variables - all thetime.. every war.. we could get a th9 below -- if we wanted to add one th10 to the top -- we could.. and we'd get 1 th10 enemy .. it was a good system because we could easily predict the results --consistently every time.

did you like the results? did it benefit everyone? -- hey.. I'm saying it was PREDICTABLE and consistant! not that it was perfect. it was perfect for anyone who figured it out and upgraded their accounts to match how it worked.

This would solve your issue with 'roster engineering' since everyone on both sides could see and agree to the match before its decided / assuming they are proactive in their search rather than just sitting there waiting for a match..

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

Lol, but jokes aside, supercell needs to address manicured accounts to some extent.

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There's no need for complex solutions like taxes, brackets, multiple pools, etc. If a certain defense isn't worth the weight that it currently has in the matchmaker (and skipped by your manicured engineers), reduce it's weight.

Edit: This change has no impact on the manicured base's weight, but it decreases everyone elses weight, effectively increasing the relative weight of any base without the defense. It also brings the weights in use more in line with their actual value. Always a better way to solve the problem than bolting on additional if this, then that type extra clauses.

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Originally Posted by Chang405

Having two different pools would reduce the number of clans in each pool and make the problem worse. Instead of matching against engineers you would just be mismatched against other maxers.

There are actually 3 ways to solve the problem, none of which SC wants to do.
1. Force everyone to put down all available structures (and upgrade them) before you are allowed to do wars ala BB style.
2. Automatically give everyone a war base that is the max base of their current TH level.
3. Scrap the current MM and build a new one from scratch. Plenty of people have come up with good suggestions on how to build a new and fair MM.

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Tiering used in the cwl is pretty good. If we're only considering balanced bases/considering max (offence/def) for matching and Only allow a few fixed configurations with some (intra th) flexibility, then we can have fair wars pretty easily. e.g.: a 3-6-11 roster, only people with that configuration can participate but they'll be matched strictly based on per th weights(sum weight per the level). If no match is found, no match is found. No need to loosen it up and give a mismatch. Very hard to game a system with inbuilt restrictions. This is closest thing to a fair war that I can think of.

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Originally Posted by Sservis

There's no need for complex solutions like taxes, brackets, multiple pools, etc. If a certain defense isn't worth the weight that it currently has in the matchmaker (and skipped by your manicured engineers), reduce it's weight.

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This is a good idea - but without a total re creation of the war match system - this is impossible to achieve. The reason that some defenses have added weight is to insure that once you buy it -- you match against a harder opponent... the Eagle at the highest weight is supposed to separate tens and 11's..

you figure at 55k th8
70k max th9
90k max th10
and 110k for max th11 -- there is not a lot of wiggle room in those arbitrary numbers.

This would require a massive re write of the entire system -- which I fully support and agree needs done -- but it must be done publicly - and attached to profiles with numbers that players can understand.

in game -- when you upgrade a defense -- they tell you
COST in elixer or gold
TIME in minutes / hours / days
EFFECT - from this HP and dps to THAT
-a new set of #'s must be added related to
WAR IMPACT +10 offense +200 defense etc like in world of warcraft but dummied down for a phone game.

This number shouldbe calculated across the players entire profile and should appear on top of their account like a GEAR SCORE addon number form the world of warcraft -- mandatory addon for many clans back in the day to auto calculate the effectiveness of a players account in a Raid...

then you can simply take those public numbers - add them up in a public clan war screen - and match another clan with comparable numbers.

this would be SO EASY..

supercel just has to list the current info in public - create a vote / poll for each item - and allow the active forum members to decide where those #'s should really be...

publicly post the results of the communities idea of how various offenses / defenses/ spells and troops should be weighted at -- keep it STICKIED as a forever kind of thing - allow us to change our votes over time-- so that as the game develops players can communicate with the developers on how useful / or useless something is....

wow.. can you imagine? a nice system like that?

I can... if only the things in my imagination could become real... world would be a better place ♥♥♥♥..