Lopsided match making

There is clearly something wrong with this new algorithm. In our last 3 wars we had no chance of winning and the opponent clan easily got 30 stars in 10v10 wars.

We have the following:
3 Town hall 10
3 Town hall 9
1 town hall 8
last 3 varied but all lower than town hall 8.

In all 3 wars the opponent had 3-4 Town hall 11 and several town hall 9 and 10.
All the town hall 11's had max troops and grand wardens and could easily 3 star anyone.
One common thing that I noticed is that none of them had witches level 2 and we all had witches level 2.

The point here is that this was absolutely no challenge for the opponent to get 30 stars in a 10v10 war and winning for us is virtually impossible. Needless to say we did not win the last 3 wars. There is no point for us to have wars anymore if this is going to be a constant thing.

do you have engineers in your lineup?

What is considered engineers? We have a couple of bases that may be considered .5 but they have some upgraded defenses. 3 wars in a row is a trend and bodes poorly for future wars. If all "engineered" bases are put into a pile then we should all upgrade to town hall 11 with max troops low defense. In the current trend I already know we will lose all future wars. How is this an improved algorithm? Clearly its not!

that's what I thought

By your response, or lack thereof, you are acknowledging that this issue does indeed exist and that my clan in its current form can look forward to zero victories in all future wars. At what point do you determine what is "engineered" and what is not? If my defenses are upgraded but I am missing one high value item, is that still engineered?

You will need to figure out what sc defination of engineered is. One of the big ways to not be in the engineer pool is to completely max the previous th. Then the .5 method would work. However if you jump early before walls and all research is done the .5 will likely put you in the engineer pool.

You are mistaken because any of our bases that could be considered as .5 have all maxed the previous town hall defenses. We are still being placed into the "engineered" pool regardless. We do not have any town hall 11 bases but now we are matched up with several town hall 11 bases every time. The question is where is the line drawn at what is engineered and what is not?

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Originally Posted by vas137

last 3 varied but all lower than town hall 8.

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How many are townhall 3 or 4?

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Originally Posted by vas137

You are mistaken because any of our bases that could be considered as .5 have all maxed the previous town hall defenses. We are still being placed into the "engineered" pool regardless. We do not have any town hall 11 bases but now we are matched up with several town hall 11 bases every time. The question is where is the line drawn at what is engineered and what is not?

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First the mm is too new and noone has it all figured out. Second youd have to see if the th10/11 are "maxed" again according to sc defination. What they will consider maxed and not is probably a very broad range or the mm woulf take forever. Without the info of troops levels and defenses placed it would be hard to tell if they were. I know many will judge and say it isnt however most here base thing on their defination not on what the mm or sc has set the defination.

Keep in mind, the MM still tries to match the "overall" clan weight in addition (apparently) to some tweaking where it looks at overall offensive weight as well.

I know it may not be, simply due to the number of members in your clan wars, but is it possible to reduce the "range" between your highest TH and your lowest? i.e. can you remove the "bottom 3" in your war lineup (most likely TH7 and below) and add bases that will reduce the overall range in levels of townhalls?

I completely agree that your matchups sound lopsided. I'm wondering tho... can the TH11's on the opponent side be 3'd by you folks? As in, are the 11's carrying TH8 level defense? If so, I believe it's possible for you to at least tie the opponent - granted your opponent will have an easier time 3'ing your bases with the overpowered offense.

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Originally Posted by hammer

Keep in mind, the MM still tries to match the "overall" clan weight in addition (apparently) to some tweaking where it looks at overall offensive weight as well.

I know it may not be, simply due to the number of members in your clan wars, but is it possible to reduce the "range" between your highest TH and your lowest? i.e. can you remove the "bottom 3" in your war lineup (most likely TH7 and below) and add bases that will reduce the overall range in levels of townhalls?

I completely agree that your matchups sound lopsided. I'm wondering tho... can the TH11's on the opponent side be 3'd by you folks? As in, are the 11's carrying TH8 level defense? If so, I believe it's possible for you to at least tie the opponent - granted your opponent will have an easier time 3'ing your bases with the overpowered offense.

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This is kind of what i was thinking. I bet a th11 with maxed th8 defenses could be counted as nonengineered.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

This is kind of what i was thinking. I bet a th11 with maxed th8 defenses could be counted as nonengineered.

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I wouldn't say a th11 with max th8 defenses is nonengineered - this is the very definition of an engineered base - but I would say this particular level of base can be 3'd by a TH9. And then looking at the overall picture where this particular TH11 3's 2 of the opponent's bases, it's "possible" that the remaining bases on the "non-engineered" side of things are able to 3-star several bases themselves.

The point I'm trying to make is that in some cases, the matches may look lopsided but the winner of the match isn't "pre-determined" anymore ... it will come down to who attacks better. But in other cases, the MM could still be out to lunch...

Clan wars should come down to who attacks better. In our last 3 wars its against several town hall 11's and yes a couple can be 3 starred but the top 2 or 3 are very difficult to 3 star or impossible. So in these wars there is no challenge to the opposing clan. Number 5 and/or 6 easily 3 star our top 4. My clan is the only one that is challenged. Is it possible to tie, I would say yes. But this is not the point of wars. Why have wars when you know that the final outcome will either be a loss or a tie?!?!

In the first of the 3 wars I had another TH8 and TH7 or TH6. In the last 2 I had a TH3 to see if it would make a difference. All yielded the same result! Does it make a difference if there are TH3's or to shorten the range difference of the town halls?

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Originally Posted by vas137

There is clearly something wrong with this new algorithm. In our last 3 wars we had no chance of winning and the opponent clan easily got 30 stars in 10v10 wars.

We have the following:
3 Town hall 10
3 Town hall 9
1 town hall 8
last 3 varied but all lower than town hall 8.

In all 3 wars the opponent had 3-4 Town hall 11 and several town hall 9 and 10.
All the town hall 11's had max troops and grand wardens and could easily 3 star anyone.
One common thing that I noticed is that none of them had witches level 2 and we all had witches level 2.

The point here is that this was absolutely no challenge for the opponent to get 30 stars in a 10v10 war and winning for us is virtually impossible. Needless to say we did not win the last 3 wars. There is no point for us to have wars anymore if this is going to be a constant thing.

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Over the last few years, how many wars did you easily win due to being engineered lop sided and meeting non engineered clans?

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Originally Posted by vas137

Clan wars should come down to who attacks better

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yes, but because of engineering wars are being decided by who is more knowledgeable about the MM, because engineers get an advantage by tricking the MM. the problem is: what's the difference between an engineer and a freshly upgraded th? or a .5? or a rusher? or someone who likes to experiment with odd bases? or anything of that sort? how can supercell possibly know what is what? that's why I say that you're either a maxer or an engineer. I mean, you can have an odd base, but if you take that base to wars, there'll certainly be problems: you'll either get an advantage or a disadvantage

but I bet that a lot of these problems wouldn't exist if everyone was a maxer

"but a base would no longer be maxed right after the player finished upgrading his th to the next level, so there would still be a problem"

well, can't you temporarily stop going to war with that base? at least until it is decent?

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Originally Posted by mcleo

Over the last few years, how many wars did you easily win due to being engineered lop sided and meeting non engineered clans?

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It's funny that you ask that, because my clan has only 7 more wins than losses. And the best winning streak is maybe 7 or 8 in a row.

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Originally Posted by strandwolfza

yes, but because of engineering wars are being decided by who is more knowledgeable about the MM, because engineers get an advantage by tricking the MM. the problem is: what's the difference between an engineer and a freshly upgraded th? or a .5? or a rusher? or someone who likes to experiment with odd bases? or anything of that sort? how can supercell possibly know what is what? that's why I say that you're either a maxer or an engineer. I mean, you can have an odd base, but if you take that base to wars, there'll certainly be problems: you'll either get an advantage or a disadvantage

but I bet that a lot of these problems wouldn't exist if everyone was a maxer

"but a base would no longer be maxed right after the player finished upgrading his th to the next level, so there would still be a problem"

well, can't you temporarily stop going to war with that base? at least until it is decent?

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The fact that you seem to think a new town hall should be treated like an engineered base continues to confuse me. So when someone moves to th9 they should just sit out of wars for 6 months until they are almost max? That is as bad as the suggestions to just match halls, which is far inferior to the option of a matchmaker that gives each hall a minimum weight. At least then new halls wouldn't be at a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by vas137

It's funny that you ask that, because my clan has only 7 more wins than losses. And the best winning streak is maybe 7 or 8 in a row.

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I was just curious, not to blame. Reading your answer I am so glad i never went the engineering way.

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Originally Posted by vas137

Clan wars should come down to who attacks better. In our last 3 wars its against several town hall 11's and yes a couple can be 3 starred but the top 2 or 3 are very difficult to 3 star or impossible. So in these wars there is no challenge to the opposing clan. Number 5 and/or 6 easily 3 star our top 4. My clan is the only one that is challenged. Is it possible to tie, I would say yes. But this is not the point of wars. Why have wars when you know that the final outcome will either be a loss or a tie?!?!

In the first of the 3 wars I had another TH8 and TH7 or TH6. In the last 2 I had a TH3 to see if it would make a difference. All yielded the same result! Does it make a difference if there are TH3's or to shorten the range difference of the town halls?

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What I'm reading into this (and correct me if I'm wrong), but from the last few wars, you've been matched against clans that have max defense (or near max) TH11's that you couldn't 3-star and yet you don't have th11's on your side, so they are easily 3-starring you.

If this is the case, you're definitely getting the short end of the stick.

And yes, from what I've read, if you have a HUGE spread between your top TH and bottom TH, there's a better chance at getting lopsided matches. I'm no expert on matchmaking, but from what I've read, it "appears" the best way to get a "more even" match is to have no more than 2 levels of townhalls between the top and bottom base. Sometimes, this simply isn't possible based on who is available in your clan for war. And I've also read where people running just 9's and 10's get continually matched up with clans having multiple TH11's.

As time goes on and supercell tweaks the MM, I'm hoping we'll see less and less of these lopsided matches.

Just FYI: the clan my "mini" is in runs a roster which ranges from th11 to th8 (and sometimes 7). Most of the time we seem to get decent matches, but there have been times where the war was over before it even starts (and no, we don't run any engineered bases - the closest to an engineered base that we have would be a th9 with 10/10 royals that hasn't dropped xbows yet).

SC does not consider TH11's with defenses in place to be engineered. Even if they are very low. At least not yet.

OP, your roster is out of balance, too top heavy. The lower half on your roster needs to have very low bases. A good roster, would have the top half of you clan be able to win war by themselves.

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Originally Posted by strandwolfza

yes, but because of engineering wars are being decided by who is more knowledgeable about the MM, because engineers get an advantage by tricking the MM. the problem is: what's the difference between an engineer and a freshly upgraded th? or a .5? or a rusher? or someone who likes to experiment with odd bases? or anything of that sort? how can supercell possibly know what is what? that's why I say that you're either a maxer or an engineer. I mean, you can have an odd base, but if you take that base to wars, there'll certainly be problems: you'll either get an advantage or a disadvantage

but I bet that a lot of these problems wouldn't exist if everyone was a maxer

"but a base would no longer be maxed right after the player finished upgrading his th to the next level, so there would still be a problem"

well, can't you temporarily stop going to war with that base? at least until it is decent?

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Any base that has all of it's defense in, even if 2 TH's back, is not categorized as an engineered base. You keep wanting to drawn the line between maxed and non maxed. According to you, any base that is not maxed is engineered, intentionally or not. This is not true and is only being promoted as an opinion by some people here in the Forum. There is no official statement from SC that backs up your claim.

First of all, people appear to have decided that SC are using a pool system engi/ non engi. I keep looking at their release statement and they just said a sense of a fairer matchup of equivellent difficulty. They have not said how, is it non engi clans should draw non engineered, or, as they did previously state, have they moved away from the predominantly defense weighted match, which will still adversely affect anyone who has maxed everything. The OP stated they upgraded witches, which on the spreadsheet I saw, albeit not a legitimate SC weighting system, named witches as a big no no, due to its big weight value. I do agree that a roster imbalance will also throw the MM a curve ball, although one of the searches from th10 down to 7 isnt a big spread.

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Originally Posted by iBork

SC does not consider TH11's with defenses in place to be engineered. Even if they are very low. At least not yet.

OP, your roster is out of balance, too top heavy. The lower half on your roster needs to have very low bases. A good roster, would have the top half of you clan be able to win war by themselves.

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How exactly do you know what SC considers engineered? I don't think anyone besides SC can make that claim. Perhaps SC has leakers like the white house.:smirk:

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Originally Posted by iBork

SC does not consider TH11's with defenses in place to be engineered. Even if they are very low. At least not yet.

OP, your roster is out of balance, too top heavy. The lower half on your roster needs to have very low bases. A good roster, would have the top half of you clan be able to win war by themselves.

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On the contrary, I think that if you get your offense to defense rations to far out of balance, you get labeled as lopsided/engineer. My imaginary line (based on one of our new matches) is that as long as offense is within one level of defenses, you are okay! But, outside of that you are labeled lopsided/engineered. That means if you didn't max your defenses from the previous town hall, and you jump to the next town hall and start leveling offense, you are in danger of being labeled as lopsided. See match #2 here:

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...parison-2-0%29

We have multiple .5's but matched a clan of 100% traditional bases.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

On the contrary, I think that if you get your offense to defense rations to far out of balance, you get labeled as lopsided/engineer. My imaginary line (based on one of our new matches) is that as long as offense is within one level of defenses, you are okay! But, outside of that you are labeled lopsided/engineered. That means if you didn't max your defenses from the previous town hall, and you jump to the next town hall and start leveling defenses, you are in danger of being labeled as lopsided. See match #2 here:

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...parison-2-0%29

We have multiple .5's but matched a clan of 100% traditional bases.

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I agree. But that ratio is no where near what most think it is. If you are getting matches with "engineered" bases while your clan is mostly maxed, trust me, those "engineered" bases aren't considered engineered by SC, else they would go into the "engineered" category.

No doubt, it is this ratio that SC says it can adjust.

But that's neither here nor there, the bottom line is that the MM has not been fixed. It's still spinning unfair wars if your roster it out of balance. And the MM will never be able to fix that. The MM does not look at your line up, it only adds the total defense/offense weight of your clan, and with the new MM, determines what "play style" to put your clan into based on the clan's defense to offense ratio.

Clearly this is the dumbest match making I have ever seen in over 2 years playing this game

Engineer pool? Ha Ha Ha here are some funny guys who think they know how mm works at perfection.

There is an engineer pool. They even alluded to it. And you can be classified as an engineer if you just finished upgrading your town hall.

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Originally Posted by LaChampi0nsLiga

Engineer pool? Ha Ha Ha here are some funny guys who think they know how mm works at perfection.

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So dating back to almost 1 year ago in my clan. 48 wars where opponent got a perfect war was 1 time. Last 3 wars opponent got a perfect war all 3 times!! This is called broken!

I do not understand why they do not put a weight on the TH level but there are weights on storage, gold mines, elixir and dark elixir collectors.

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Originally Posted by LaChampi0nsLiga

Engineer pool? Ha Ha Ha here are some funny guys who think they know how mm works at perfection.

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There is not a pool for one or the other, everybody is in the pool, but they changed matching criteria to match "play styles" or so they say. If you run defenseless base "play style", your are more likely to match other clans using the defenseless "play style".

So in a since, you are in your own "play style" side of the pool. How they determine "play styles" is still unknown. "play style" to me was their politically correct term for engineering.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

There is not a pool for one or the other, everybody is in the pool, but they changed matching criteria to match "play styles" or so they say. If you run defenseless base "play style", your are more likely to match other clans using the defenseless "play style".

So in a since, you are in your own "play style" side of the pool. How they determine "play styles" is still unknown. "play style" to me was their politically correct term for engineering.

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I think "play style" might be slightly misrepresented in the new MM system. A fresh TH upgrade might be considered "engineered" when is not. In any case there seems to be a lot of other clans experiencing the same issue we have.

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Originally Posted by vas137

I think "play style" might be slightly misrepresented in the new MM system. A fresh TH upgrade might be considered "engineered" when is not. In any case there seems to be a lot of other clans experiencing the same issue we have.

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Fresh upgrade is not seen as engineered by the match maker. Also, from my information I think the only account that will get you in trouble is a defenseless 11 and most likely a 10.

Since the OMMMA has gone live, we (we have some .5's and a 9.11 type in our roster) have matched clans that have 0 engineered bases (no .5's), clans that dabble in engineering like ourselves, and just recently a clan with some defenseless bases (the worst offender being a th9 that is nothing special).

I think that the "greater sense of fairness" SC was referring to is that most clans that do not use defenseless th11's will not be matched with them.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

Fresh upgrade is not seen as engineered by the match maker. Also, from my information I think the only account that will get you in trouble is a defenseless 11 and most likely a 10.

Since the OMMMA has gone live, we (we have some .5's and a 9.11 type in our roster) have matched clans that have 0 engineered bases (no .5's), clans that dabble in engineering like ourselves, and just recently a clan with some defenseless bases (the worst offender being a th9 that is nothing special).

I think that the "greater sense of fairness" SC was referring to is that most clans that do not use defenseless th11's will not be matched with them.

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You must be an expert an this new MM system if you say a fresh upgrade will not be seen as "engineered."

In our last 4 wars, we had zero defenseless bases and zero TH11 and we were matched up with several TH11 and defenseless bases. All 4 wars were heavily weighted for the opponent in offense and defense. Thus, I deduce that maybe for some reason a weight "penalty" is added otherwise why else would this occur.

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Originally Posted by vas137

You must be an expert an this new MM system if you say a fresh upgrade will not be seen as "engineered."

In our last 4 wars, we had zero defenseless bases and zero TH11 and we were matched up with several TH11 and defenseless bases. All 4 wars were heavily weighted for the opponent in offense and defense. Thus, I deduce that maybe for some reason a weight "penalty" is added otherwise why else would this occur.

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I am only speaking on my opinions based on my experience and statements made by SC. I have a very detail match thread going you can look at our matches.

You say you have no engineering and have matched a clan with a defenseless account. Was that defenseless account a th11? or even a significant 10?

Here is my match thread for you too look at:

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...parison-2-0%29

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

I am only speaking on my opinions based on my experience and statements made by SC. I have a very detail match thread going you can look at our matches.

You say you have no engineering and have matched a clan with a defenseless account. Was that defenseless account a th11? or even a significant 10?

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3 wars ago it was 2 very low defense TH11. 1 very low defense TH10. 1 Th11 defenseless(just a level 4 cannon), 1 defenseless TH8(level 10 cannon). All had high troop levels relative to their defenses.

2 wars ago it was 2 very low defense TH11, 1 low very defense TH9 and 1 defenseless TH6. Again all with very high troop levels.

1 war ago it was 1 very low defense TH11, 1 very low defense TH10, 2 low defense TH8. One again with high troop levels

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Originally Posted by vas137

3 wars ago it was 2 very low defense TH11. 1 very low defense TH10. 1 Th11 defenseless(just a level 4 cannon), 1 defenseless TH8(level 10 cannon). All had high troop levels relative to their defenses.

2 wars ago it was 2 very low defense TH11, 1 low very defense TH9 and 1 defenseless TH6. Again all with very high troop levels.

1 war ago it was 1 very low defense TH11, 1 very low defense TH10, 2 low defense TH8. One again with high troop levels

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Are you in a war? Can I stop by and look?

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Originally Posted by vas137

3 wars ago it was 2 very low defense TH11. 1 very low defense TH10. 1 Th11 defenseless(just a level 4 cannon), 1 defenseless TH8(level 10 cannon). All had high troop levels relative to their defenses.

2 wars ago it was 2 very low defense TH11, 1 low very defense TH9 and 1 defenseless TH6. Again all with very high troop levels.

1 war ago it was 1 very low defense TH11, 1 very low defense TH10, 2 low defense TH8. One again with high troop levels

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Just because the opp has some engineered bases does not make them an "engineered" clan in the "eyes" of the MM.

There are a lot of speculations about the new MM. However, it's easy to see what it's doing. There is a way to find out how something works without knowing how it works. You extrapolate from known data then formulate a model, you then apply math to that model and test it. If that model then "spits out" the same results that you are seeing, in this case, the War MM, you can rest assured that your model is accurate, accurate enough to have a very good grasp on how something works.

Based on the model I use, it works out. Here's the model:

1) War match calculates the total weight of the clan. It doe NOT check individual bases. It's just a total sum for the clan, it then matches clans with same total sum weight.

2) The new MM checks for defense/offense ratio of clan, it then places that clan in it's relevant pool for a match.

If you apply the above model, all wars will make sense to you.

A clan can have "engineered" bases, but can have the same "total weight" of a clan that does not have engineered bases. The offense to defense ratio of these clans will fall within the specified range of defense vs offense ratio for a "normal" clan.

A clan whose offense is greatly lopsided, will then be matched with a same "type" lopsided offense clan.

If you apply this, it works out.

Another example: Clan A has 20 bases is war. The MM adds up the defense weight for the entire clan, it then adds up the total weight for the offense side of the entire clan. This gives the MM a single weight for total defense vs total offense of that clan. It does not matter what type of bases the clan has, it just calculates the total weight. It then assigns what group it goes into based on the defense to offense ratio.

Do you see how the clans you gave as examples would be matched with you if you apply this model? Does it make sense now? Your clan had the same overall weight as they did.