as darian just said, supercell has received quite a bit of positive response from the changes so they're happy with it. they'll further fine tune it if needed, but it's still too early for thatQuote:
Originally Posted by ChaseLayla
Printable View
as darian just said, supercell has received quite a bit of positive response from the changes so they're happy with it. they'll further fine tune it if needed, but it's still too early for thatQuote:
Originally Posted by ChaseLayla
It has certainly helped my clan. Current match is a joke, they never stood a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaseLayla
Well, there you go. MM is fixed! Lol ��Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo123
War is underway. Their #30 two-starred our #3. We're getting crushed in huge mismatch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilBenji
We have NO engineered bases and have faced none since the update. Thanks SC!!
If you only have a few engineers maybe it's time to leave them out until their bases are balanced.
Perfect. What is the MM definition of "balanced"?Quote:
Originally Posted by jssnyder
MM system is horrible - 4 TH11s vs 6 TH11s. We have 4 th7s or lower... their lowest is almost a max TH9. What a joke.
So where is this positive responses? All I see are horrible missmatches...or people like you claiming someone with 2 engineering bases is the same as someone with 24. From what I read SC determines that unless your base is max for that TH level...you are an engineer. So all they did is make it much much easier for hardcore engineers (those that are TH11 with max offense and TH8 defense) to have cake walk wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
If you have high offense, you have to have high defence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dausano
Th9 lv30 heroes + no x-bows = unbalanced
th9 lv30 heroes + max defences = balanced
if you upgrade only offense you'll face clans that do the same.
Your example works because it is the simplest of examples. What about a Th9 with 15/15 heroes? What is considered by the MM to be "balanced" then? No bows? level 1 bows? mid level defenses? Max defenses?Quote:
Originally Posted by RagnarFurias
Been trying out the MM with my th9 as the top base and the rest are th8s with the bottom half still at th7 strength except bombs. Not really shooting for engineering, I'm just lazy on building several th8 bases. Bottom th8 is rushed with weak defenses with the only strong troop being barch. Drag lv 1 is its strongest attack.
Both matches looked fair. Last match looked almost mirror except the very bottom where they had a th4. This match they have an extra th9 at the top but I have more th8s where they have th7s. With proper planning it could be a good war.
Unfortunately, neither war was exciting as my opponents were not up to the challenge. At least the second clan tried. I'll probably toss my very fresh th11 in there and see how bad or good it will be next time. Its considered engineered but what base isn't nowadays.
you should have all your defences dropped and keep the builders working on them while you upgrade your heroes. In my case I had all defences maxed when with lv15 heroes. A more hardcore DE farmer could get there a little earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
as it says in the start screen: having strong defences is as important as having a strong attack (don't know the exact words cause my app is not in English)
I highly doubt that a TH9 w 29/29 heroes and no xbows would be considered balanced. The simple answer is that no one but SC would be able to give their specific threshold and what factors into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RagnarFurias
And I ask this in order to find out what to expect from the state of the bases in my clan right now. It is all about the bases early in their transition to a higher TH. Being realistic about the fact that we can't all snap our fingers and max a base in between wars to be safe and balanced in the eyes of MM. I wouldn't ever spend that much.
My point is that a defensively maxed out Th9 with 15/15 heroes is not balanced at all. It is lopsided defensively. Many people in my casual clan has such Th9 bases, their builders are now idle because there is nothing left to upgrade but heroes but because they are casuals it may take them a year to get 30/30 heroes. Again, not balanced in any way, shape or form.Quote:
Originally Posted by RagnarFurias
We removed the 2 engineered bases from search but still matched a extrem engineered clan. Of course like everyone we have some bases that are new to a th. The real problem here may not be that the mm is faulty but rather we need info. What is causing us to match extreme engineered clans? Is our clan as a whole unbalanced? I don't think so. Is one or more base unbalanced? I don't think so. Or is the mm just a mess?
Our highest is near max TH10, weight is 89 - so would high Th7 be the lowest I go then to better matches? Prior to the update I had not problems getting fair matches including members down to Th5 or 6...Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
if you match against a clan with similar playstyle it will be just fair. Although you can see a lot of TH11 with Th9 defences, you will not see a max TH11 with TH9 offense. That's because you have two attacks and only one base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
you won't have problems because of your defence. However, if you choose the engineered path, there will always be a clan better engineered than yours.
The point I am addressing is the question of "balance" of a base. A base with defense ahead of offense is not balanced. You originally stated that you considered a Max Th9 with 30/30 heroes to be balanced. My question, that you haven't answered, is whether you thought a Max Th9 with 15/15 heroes is balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by RagnarFurias
You will have problems with your defense! If MM was a lane by lane matching system having 2 max TH9s with 15/15 heroes matched up to each other would indeed be fair. But the actual MM takes some kind of average clan weight. Therefore, the chances are very high that Max defense TH9s will draw in TH10s and Max defense Th10s will draw in TH11s etc.
Somehow we got an engineered village in the past war, we won anyway
but this war is so weird, they have a rushed th11 with almost no defense (but awesome troops), and a rushed th9
while we have 2 full th9 and the rest are th8 or below
Most likely we'll tie, since the th11 can 3 star us easy, but we can 3 star him easy as well :/
Exactly... and this leads us back to the beginning. We know that lopsided bases are penalized. Beyond that they are now putting the whole clan into a lopsided MM bucket. The safest way out of this is to balance every base in the roster (if that is what you are after) to stay out of the lopsided bucket that has those defenseless TH11s swimming around in it. This is what my clan wants. What are the priorities in "fixing" a 0.5 base that is now too lopsided by the new standard? The issue then becomes guessing how much the standard can be adjusted by. I downloaded content today when I opened the game... Anyone know what changed? Could it be a MM adjustment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
1) about your question, yes, for me it is balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chang405
2) we don't know how MM works, but a max TH9 is not likely to draw a TH10 with infernos cause they weight too much. Let alone TH11s with eagles
This is a post regarding current war:
40 VS 40
Our side:
8 - th11 (2 eng base)
18 - th10 ( all legit)
14 - th9 (all legit)
Thier side:
32 th11 (Most excluded only EA)
4- th10
4- th9
All the th11 maxed out the AD which is obvious, warden minimum of lvl 5 and 3 bloody xbows. So much for your MM. Great Work :)
So pretty much from all the comments if you have any base that may resemble an "engineered" base or a .5 or a newer TH working troops before defenses then MM treats it as that your are an engineered clan and the only way you wont pair against one is if all bases are maxed or near maxed for that TH level? lol
All but the last bit. We just don't (and can't yet) know what the guidlines would be for low/mid progress bases. Dropping all structures for current TH would probably fix it for a new TH, but what if it isn't enough for a mid? Or what if that mid seems like it is balanced but is an AT upgrade short and that is enough to put the whole war in the engineered bucket?Quote:
Originally Posted by DARTHVADER88
It is too early to know about how it will work after the recent change, but before the change we were fine with th11-8, so th10-7 sound similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer339
Yeah that there lies the problem, the mm algorithm was changed and we have no idea whats acceptable to UG, or not UG, to not be classified in the engineered group. Wish there was more clarity as it seems to have gotten more muddy than before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dausano
Hi, current war is not a fair matchup at all, so the new system didn't work for this one. 15vs15. Opponent is 4x11, 5x10, 3x9, 2x8 ans 1x7. We are 0x11, 6x10, 4x9, 5x8. We need to match up th levels better, no way we should have to take on 4 th11 when we have zero.
Last war we had a few engineered and got matched with 8 engineered and 3 defenseless bases. This war we removed all engineered and got matched with a heavily engineered clan in a 40 vs their 35 to 40 have 40 40 15 hero's or higher and 3 have 1 baby cannon where our lower 5 are 3 new th9 and 2 maxxed th8s. The th11 up top are matched with maxxed defense/ offense but their walls are th9 but they still have the advantage.
Sorry for the upcoming block of text, but here's detailed what we've seen in matchmaking through 3 wars with new system.
3 wars (2 completed, 1 in Preparation)
1st War - 15v15
Us: (all heroes are decent levels for the most part)
3 th11 - 1 lopsided, 1 max th10 def. minus infernos, 1 new th11 with warden 6 and no other upgrades
4 th10 - 1 fully max, 1 maxxed w/lvl2 infernos but L30 heroes, 1 maxxed infernos & th9 other defenses middle heroes, 1 9.5
6 th9 - 1 max, 1 max w/lvl2 xbows, 2 complete 8.5s, 1 newish with aq to 13 and a couple new troops, 1 lopsided w/all walls and teslas
1 th8 - lopsided no defense max drags
1 th5 - maxed filler
Them:
4 th11s - 1 10.5 max war troops + max ads L12 Warden, 1 th9 def + L3 infernos max war troops & L12 Warden, 1 th 8 def max war troops L13 warden, 1 odd mixture of th8-11 defenses but missing quite a few (#13 on map) w/L20 warden and max loons L3 hounds
2 th10s - 1 fully maxxed, 1 defenseless with th9 troops 10/10 heroes
9 th9s - varying strength from th8 defenses + low xbows, to 3 fully maxxed with max or near max heroes, and everything in between
Result: Fully expected a perfect to perfect war, somehow they failed on our 9.5 to the tune of 98%...I gemmed 5 days left on max bowlers to guarantee I could 3 star at the end for the final base to be 3d...we won by 1 star
2nd War 15v15
Us:
similar lineup as above
Take out the th11 with max th10 def minus infernos for a 9.5
The max th10 except L2 infernos went to 11 w/ new AT, WT, L2Warden
Also various minor tweaks of similar bases at the th9 level, just swapping out people opt in or out and such, nothing major
Them: (This is where it gets interesting compared to last war) 70 Win Streak, perfect green war log
6!! Th11 - 1 10.5 maxxed war troops and heroes no infernos but several th11 point defenses, 1 th7 defense w/max air 22/22/19 heroes, 1 lower than previous defense w/max all war troops 32/38/20 heroes, 1 no defense max troops/heroes, 1 no defense max air troops 19/20/20 heroes, 1 no defense max air&bowlers 21/22/20 heroes
4 Th10 - 1 fully max w/near max heroes, 1 9.5 w/maxxed defenses minus inferoes & near max heroes, 1 lower 9.5 but not by much with near maxxed heroes, 1 very low defenses but not defenseless (#14 on map) mostly maxxed troops 20/20 heroes
3 Th9 - 2 maxxed w/15-20 heroes, 1 defenseless (#15 on map) w/low heroes and L6 loons & L3 drags as only troops of importance
2 Th8 - Both maxxed or close enough
Result: Going into this, our only hope was a perfect/perfect tie...literally no hope of a win unless they catastrophically failed (like our previous matchup haha). We ended their 70 win streak by adding a gray line perfect tie at the top of their war log. I consider this a win in my book and we celebrated as such...That was EASILY the worst matchup we've ever had in wars...period.
Current War:
I dropped our two defenseless bases (th11 and th9) as an experiment left the 8.5s and 9.5s in...10v10 war
Us:
2 new th11s
3 lowish th10s, 1 infernos the others don't
5 th9s, 1 brand new but added xbows first, 2 8.5s
Them:
1 th11 - th10 defenses with max troops for the most part, 33/23/15 heroes...
5 th10 - 1 max heroes max infernos th9 other defense w/max troops, 1 9.5 with new xbow upped ADs 33/32 heroes, 1 slightly below that one on defense and heroes but still max troops, 2 9.5 no defense ups w/max troops 25/25 heroes
4 th9s - 3 are mid to max bases, 1 is an 8.5
This is the first war in new matchmaking that seems normal to me, seems like a pretty fairly matched up set...Will probably leave our two defenseless out for a while and see how the matches continue like that. As it is, our .5s don't seem to have drawn an engineering clan this time, nor our new th11s with just early level new defenses.
Curious - do you have any .5s? I have a theory that .5s are also considered "engineers" in the new algorithm and that it's as simple as - if you have "engineers", you get matched with engineers. So even in a 40v40, if you have 1 .5, you could go up against 10 TH11s with no defenses, if the total weight balances.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pobilly
Our current war was reasonable fair. 2 th10s for each side. We have an advantage of 2 early th9 (with xbows) on our side, but they have more th8 on the middle. There is one heavily lopsided base for each clan (1 defenseless th10 with lvl4 dragons and no queen for us and one defenseless th11 with lvl 2 miners and no warder for them).
We have 4 th6 at the bottom and they have some th8 with low defense at their bottom. So we are a little stronger at defenses and they are a little stronger at offense. But it's a good match, both clans have similar win chances.
In our current war we have 1 th11, 10 th10, 3 th9 and 1 th8
And are matched against 4 th11, 2 th10, 1 th11, 1 th10, 1 th11, 1 th9, 3 th11, 1 th9 and 1 th5
In that order 👎👎
I like the initiative to fix the engineering. But why don't you just match th lvl against the same th lvl?
as a maxer I support this suggestion:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Refuse
I've seen a lot of posts on here saying if you have engineered bases in your clan, you are going to get an engineered matchup. You get what you deserve!
Well, a lot of clans were tired of getting their butts kicked by unfair matchmaking and encouraged their members to stop building defenses at all. Why? Because the matchmaking algorithm that has been in place basically penalized you for building and upgrading defenses when it comes to wars. They found only offense mattered in your war matchup.
So if now you can only actually get a fair matchup when you have zero engineered bases as defined in the current MM algorithm (a claim that I don't believe is necessarily true), can SuperCell come out and define what an engineered base is to them? I'd be happy to keep out any bases from our war until they are "un-engineered" and give my clan instructions on how to get them up to par if I knew what the criteria was.
We're just looking for a matchup in war where skill determines the winner. The matches were awful half of the time before this update and even worse both times we've warred since the MM. So tired of having matching clans with 5 TH11s in the middle of the order with max air troops that can wipe out our early TH10s and TH9s when we are mostly a TH10 and below clan.
Amen Pete. Amen. --H
Quote:
Originally Posted by OutlawPete
3rd war in the new MM. Still really bad
Us
4 th 11 mid max with max heroes.
1 th10,5 with lvl 40/40/5 heroes
7 th 10 with (various level of defense, with lvl 1 infernos mostly)
3 th 9,5
6 th 9
2 th 8
1 th7
1 defenseless th9.
Theirs
5 th11 max with max heroes and walls
3 th 11 with no ea
1 th 9,5
4 th 11 with no inferno
1 th 10 with 1 xbow
1 th 11 with no xbow
3 th 9
The rest are th8's and some th10 wifh no xbow
1 defenseless th 11 at the bottom.
Look at how many Wardens and maxed lavaloon they have against ours.
Please teach us how the new algorithm works because I don't see how those matchup can be BALANCED.
were you expecting a fair match when you decided to take that defeseless and those engineered bases to war? you weren't, I don't know, trying to get an.... hmm.... advantage over the opponent by engineering your clan, were you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Summermilk
I guess it backfiredXD
#engineerbetternexttime
Please just leave this thread. You add nothing to the conversation repeatedly posting the same type of comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
last three matches we have been overwhelmed with th11s. We have none
last match us 7 th10 9 th9s them 10 th11 7 th10 9 th9
Never seen it this bad. Much like a lot of others facing the same issue we will prob stop doing wars soon. There is simply no point. We lost every war. This is not a case of them being bad fighters, they three starred out inferno bases. We could not three star their maxed th11 including infernos but no warden.
So many saying this is due to having engineered accounts but if you have read this whole thread and the ones in the war sub forum you will see its happening to ALL types of clan. Seems the only ones that are getting decent matches are guys running small wars... but not all small wars. I've seen some pretty bad matches for them too.
Fact is if you dont have a bunch of th11s in war then there is no point having a war. GW has killed this game for anyone other than other th11s.
you can add me to your ignore list if you wantQuote:
Originally Posted by MazerFromAbove
just click on my name, then click on 'view profile'. below my profile picture there's 'add to ignore list', click on it and then confirm
:thumbsup:
This is a feedback thread, correct me if I'm wrong. Your comment is stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
Has there been any word from supercell since their new totally unfair fix to war mm?
why do I feel that you wouldn't be here giving your feedback if your engineering had worked:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Summermilk
yes: .Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenna
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darian[Supercell]
Appernetly everything is great, Darien posted in clan wars there were many positive comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenna
So you acknowledge there are many engineering clans out there loving this new matchmaker and just not commenting about it? Nothing about the new matchmaker suggests it is going to hurt engineering. It might change it, as every matchmaking change does, but nothing suggests so far that it will end it or even lessen it. I keep seeing maxers matching up against big engineering clans and at a huge disadvantage. I don't care if a maxer clan gets 3 straight good matches, if they get a horrible one against an engineering clan on that 4th match, they have no chance at a win streak, they probably will think it is unfair, they will quit or add their own engineering. The new system doesn't appear to be working based on forum feedback. Maybe SC has access to something else to suggest otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
Lol wolf u beat me.Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
Matchmaking has been either close, or way in favor of opponents. We are a pretty good war clan, 350-95 record and typically only lose to extremely engineered clans that can 3 star our 1 and 2. We typically only leave 1 or 2 stars on the table. Our clan has 1-9.75, 1-10.5, and 5-9.5. Only the 9.75 would consider "engineered". The others are early enough in their TH level to be considered on a smart progression. Most of these opponent TH 10s & 11s have max traps and are matched up with our TH9s. Forcing our 10s to drop to get them. Luckily, we have a very good core of attackers at the TH10 Level. Here is the simple breakdown of our last 2 wars and the current war.
win 59-55, this was a good matchup.
TH us them
11 2 3
10 7 8
9 8 8
8 0 1
7 2 1
loss. 43-43, this matchup was in their favor but we did well, lost on %
TH us them
11 3 6
10 6 2
9 6 5
8 0 2
in progress, but will be another loss I think, match is far in their favor.
TH us them
11 3 8
10 8 9
9 7 3
8 1 0
7 1 0
Please consider not allowing lower town halls in war.
Our lasted matchup the enemy clan has 2 more th9s than we do because of their th4 sandbag...
Not only does destroying this base give no reward, but, it also reduces the amount of earnable XP for winning the war...
we just got 4 strong TH 11s vs. 2 TH11s in a 10 vs. 10 war... ouch! :(
Second war 15 v 15
US (387-112-2)
1: TH 11, 45 BK, 45 AQ, 20 GW, 109K
2: TH 11, 45 BK, 45 AQ, 20 GW, 109K
3: TH 10.5, 38 BK, 41 AQ, 16 GW, 92K
4: TH 10.5, 45 BK, 45 AQ, 20 GW, 91K
5: TH 10.5, 44 BK, 45 AQ, 20 GW, 91K
6: TH 9.5, 30 BK, 33 AQ, 73K
7: TH 9.5, 22 BK, 25 BK, 70K
8: TH 9, 30 BK, 30 AQ, 70K
9: Eng 11, 45 BK, 45 AQ, 20 GW, 60K
10: TH 8.5, 10 BK, 12 AQ, 60K
11: Eng 10, 17 BK, 20 AQ, 58K
12: TH 8, 10 BK, 55K
13: TH 8, 9 BK, 40K
14: TH 6, 21K
15: Defenseless 9, 6 BK, 5 AQ, 10K
THEM (190-104-1)
1: TH 11, 42 BK, 44 AQ, 20 GW, 108K
2: TH 11, 35 BK, 42 AQ, 20 GW, 107K
3: TH 10.5, 40 BK, 40 AQ, 20 GW, 90K
4: TH 10.5, 31 BK, 40 AQ, 8 GW, 89K
5: TH 10, 25 BK, 25 AQ, 87K
6: TH 10, 25 BK, 25 AQ, 87K
7: TH 10, 28 BK, 30 AQ, 87K
8: TH 9.5, 24 BK, 25 AQ, 74K
9: TH 9.5, 21 BK, 24 AQ, 70K
10: TH 9, 19 BK, 19 AQ, 67K
11: TH 9, 18 BK, 19 AQ, 66K
12: TH 9, 21 BK, 21 BK, 66K
13: TH 8, 6 BK, 50K
14: TH 7, 4 BK, 38K
15: TH 6, 29K
Going to be a rough war for them. 80/20 in our favor.
If you see my roster closely, you know that our clan is not giving a bad lineup. We dont have th11 sneaking between th 9's or anything like that. The defenseless th9 is prety much what we have, and that was the result of meeting some defenseless th11 at the bottom of our opponents from time to time, which frustrated us.Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
We have always came up with quite a balanced matchups, the same amount of th11 at the top, almost the same amount of th 9-10s. We were never really on an advantage, war was hard enough, we win or lose depending on strategy n some luck, meeting the same kind of clans with some th 10,5 and th9,5, which I have no problem with. But the last 3 matcup was really the worst. I'm talking about 5 th11s against 15 th11s. That's why I am here, giving a feedback, that the matcups lately has gone wayyy off.
The one thing that seems to be consistent is that townhall 10s with heavy defense and weak offense are hurting your clan.
They add a lot of war weight without much value.
Ok just did another war search.....3 for 3.....another th 11 max war troops with us having no th 11. They also have another th11 that has max dragons and grand warden. Not sure how much tje dragon will hurt us but their top player should easily 3 star our top 2. it's another very bad match. Guess having a th 10 with higher heros is something now a disadvantage.
Judging by our latest match this balancing has only worked to favour engineered clans it was terrible before but now disastrous. .. turn back the clock
Yeah so I thought this change was meant to give better matches?! Every war since the changes have seen us come up against engineered clans with more TH11s than us at the top whilst them still havingTH10/11s mixed through the 8/9s as well.
The last system chucked up the odd bad match for us, but this system seems to stick it to us every time. We managed to win one, but lost the last two by %. Last one would have been a win if I'd had a few more seconds versus their 11s which a
ways hurts. This current matchup is going to be a loss IMO cos they just have way too much firepower to even compete.
Nonsense.
Well we have finished both the wars and just wanted to give an update. We lost our 1st match by 1 star we were out matched but as I stated above we are almost always in our wars no matter the match. How ever we won the 2nd war and therefore its hard to say we were outmatched even though we were when it comes to th11 v th11 max troop attacks. We have spun our 3rd war now and this one looks fairly even but we have a 2 th11 hit advantage at 1st look I think we will take this war but you never know. In my opinion I was to rushed to give an opinion the 1st time. We just need more searches and more wars to really know that outcome of the changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by BAR917
We are two wars into the so called "War matchmaking improvement". And both wars we got screwed royally, max th11s out the wazoo. I liked it better under the old system. I know SC is trying really hard, but jeeze, give us a break!
2nd matchup with this system was worse than the 1st. (Both of which were worse than what we normally saw under the old system.)
We have:
2, 11s (1 max, 1 mid)
5, 10s (2 high, 1 mid, 2 lower)
They have:
6, 11s (2 high, 1 mid, 3 engineered)
3, 10s (1 high, 1 mid, 1 lower)
By high, mid, and low I'm referring to their relative progress at being a TH of that lvl. "Low" TH10 would be 25/25 heros, no infernos, not much upgraded D beyond TH9 lvl.
Third war: Both have a max th11 at the top. We have a th10.5 and a rushed th11, they have two th10. Both have a few .5 and engineers. We have three defenseless th9 with weak heroes and no th9 troops at the bottom and they have two th3.
A good match for us again. :D
I was thinking defenseless "low" level th would be the worst type of base to take to war with this new MM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin94
A defenseless th9 is almost useless in a war with max th11s and th10s. So taking this extra useless offensive weight is like asking for the MM to compensate it adding some strong offense on the top bases of your adversaries.
But it looks like it turned all right for you. Thanks for sharing.
Capability vs match are 2 different things. Our 3rd war with a bad mismatch we'll probably win because their top player left. Does that mean we were matched properly, I don't believe it does. We would of won the first war if they didn't have the second max th 11 troop attack, but they did and it was enough to get the win. If we won that one due to their poor attacks, it still does not make the mm even.Quote:
Originally Posted by BAR917
You have a good point here, winning due to some factor extrinsic to the match certainly doesn't show the match was fair, or even winnable at a stretch. As an ideal, I think a 50:50 chance on paper is fair, with attack skill, base design and teamwork the greatest determinants of the outcome. If due to the matching pool available that means half the time them having an extra th whatever up top, or even two, that's fine... providing about as often it's you with the extra th whatevers. It's when you are systematically being outgunned most of the time with no way to change that but manipulating your own roster for weight advantage that a problem starts.Quote:
Originally Posted by STRIKER44
They can only scout or crush th8 with dragons because they haven't unlocked th9 troops. We only take them in war to get enough players. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CHANDRIANO
I guess that helps to explain your good match. We like to include th5-6 to get enough players. I don't know how much it can influence our roster balance, but at least we avoid additional war weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin94
The "dithering" range is too wide in my opinion. Sometimes our opponent is too strong, sometimes they're too weak. Is that because of my engineered base in war lineup?
First war is unfair. We have 3 maxed th9 and rest lower (NO ENGINEERED) .Enemy is 3 maxed th9 with an engineered th11(With MAXED LOONS). No doubt at all we lose this war. Please fix such unfair MM.
Third war for us, and so far cannot complain, very evenly matched , we war 10 vs 10 though , were losing a lot before ,10 vs 10 against engineered clans, so for us everything is A ok :)
He who includes the highest offensive filler wins? Yet wars are match primarily on defense...Quote:
Originally Posted by CHANDRIANO
Complete and utter disappointment in this sham. Every war since the update we have to overcome engineers, and this most recent war with started today - EVERY BASE IS ENGINEERED EXCEPT THE 2 MAX TH11s sitting at the top!
Really starting to lose faith in this "development team". They can "fix" everything except the most important thing - WAR!
Exactly the same feeling here!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by AlReeGator
I would say who includes the most efficient offensive power wins. The trick is to don't bring unnecessary weight to war. A couple of lopsided th9 at your bottom can result on a lopsided th11 at your opponents bottom or a strong 10.5 at their top (vs a max th10 on your top).Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer339
The clan with one th11 offense would be much more efficient than the one with a couple of th9 offense.
So if that extra offensive th9 power isn't necessary, my advice is: don't use them at wars.
In Colin94's clan, he said the th9s have th8 offensive power, so I'm guessing that it isn't enough offense to cause a mismatch.
3rd match for us... And all three have been good! First two were 30v with close to 10/10/10 breakdowns. Current war is 25v at 12/6/7. Opponents have all been similar in overall weights with no gross advantages either way. So far, so good!
Totally agree....Quote:
Originally Posted by AlReeGator
Third war in a row that matchmaking sucks...
1st : 3 TH11, 4 TH10 and Th9/TH8/TH7... In front of us : 9 TH11 (7 engineered)... 6 TH10 (most engineered) !!!
2nd : 4 TH11 (2 engineered) and several other engineered...
3rd (this evening) : 7 TH11 (2 max, 5 engineered) and a lot of other TH10 engineered...
It is ridiculous...
Wars will end if it is always the same matchmaking....
Come on SC, if we can look at our war match and in the first 2 munites see its a bad match why can't you build this into your mm? A simple last matching check to see the max offences war troops vs the other clan max war troops. If not even kill match. So frustrating to spend over 3 years playing the right way to have this stuff happen. The pandering to the engineered and rushed is killing any fun for us who worked hard to max bases.
For the clan we just got anyway.
New algorithm sucks. We are non engineered lvl 10 clan, 5 th11s, 4th10s, 6 th9s this war. New & improved 'similar clan algorithm ' just matched us against lvl 14 engineered clan 13 th11s, 1 th9, 1 Th8, 400+ war wins.
threir #15 is a defenseless 11 with skull walls, Max heros and Every air troop maxxed. No other troops are upgraded.
Their top 5 are completely maxed, the rest are various stages of 11, 10.5, or 9.xxx5 defense wise but definitely th11 war troops.
I am a programmer. Supercell needs to spend some of their money on decent Devs that can comprehend embedded IfThenElse loops because these guys are horrid. It is easy to differentiate between engineered and non engineered, and group them in seperate queues. It's also easy to distinguish high total weight from low.
I am am not against engineering. I just felt it was relevant to expose this algorithm as a failure. Back to the drawing board you go. Either get it right, or don't release it... Especially after all of the hype that it will be an improvement.
You say its easy as a programmer but if you did you would understand they would need to call upon every grouping in the code.. so I'm not sure how you can say its easy. What do they measure? What groupings are the line of "engineers" and "not engineers". What prevents this from taking rushers and go the other way? You'd be focused so much on trying to stop engineers you probably wouldn't have the foresight to see ahead to a different problem.
There will always "be" a problem because players will find loopholes to the system and exploit them if it gains them an advantage. You cannot stop people from doing this. Best example for Town Hall Sniping, everyone used it, wasn't intended as used, same with engineering. Everyone's doing it now.
It will be the same if you solve this problem. Even IF this suggested system works, you'll have changed it but opened ground to some new tactic. Unless you possess incredible foresight.
After two lopsided matches warring with two 9.5s and two 8.5s in our lineup vs heavily engineered clans, I decided to run a "pure" war to test the theory of .5s being considered engineered by SC. No .5s. No engineered bases of any kind in my lineup. After 22 minutes of searching, we received this gem;
US
#1- Max th9, 26/30 heroes #2- Max th9, 25/26
#3- Max th9, 29-21 #4- Max th9 with some lvl 9 walls, 17/22
#5- Max th9 with some lvl 9 walls, 15/20 #6- Max th9 with some lvl 9 walls, 18/18
#7- Near max th9, 16/16 #8- Max th8
#9- Near max th8 #10- Middle off and def th8
#11- New th8(th7 def and off) #12- Max th7
#13- Near max th7 #14- New th6(was max th5)
#15- New th5(was max th4)
THEM
#1- th11 Near max off, NO eagle, all other def dropped and at max th10, lvl 3 infernos, 4 lvl 4 xbows, 25/35/10 heroes
#2- Max th9 except witch and lvl 8, 9 and 10 walls 10/8 heroes
#3- Max th9 except witch and lvl 8+ walls 10/7
#4- Max th9 except witch and lvl 8+ walls 10/8
#5- Max th9 except a few troops and lvl 8+ walls 10/8
#6- Near max th9 off, th8 def except lvl 7 ad, lvl 1 bows 10/10
#7- Near max th9 off, th8 def, lvl 1 bows 10/9
#8- Rushed th9, th7-th8 def, no bows, max th9 drag, lightning and rage 6/1
#9 and #10- Rushed th8 with lvl 3 drags
#11- Near defenseless th8(probably dropped and gemmed some def after this update) lvl 3 drags and lvl 5 lightning
#12- Max th5
#13 through #15- Two rushed th5 and a rushed th6
I welcome and implore any mod or SC staff member to join my clan and verify the information provided. PM me and I will give you the clan details. We are 3 hours into prep right now. I assume the disparity in heroes primarily is what landed us this match up. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this war is unwinnable by any means. Actually, I am pretty confident in the win. We run original th9 base designs and our def is almost always on point when defending against fellow th9s. But really? Is this what SC had in mind as an improvement? Damn near max th10.5 vs th9? Free 6 stars and our top 2 bases knocked off by someone attacking two th lvls down? SC, STOP defending engineered players and engineered clans. NO, it is not a "play style" crafted out of thin air, it is merely a product of a deeply flawed MM system used to gain a tactical advantage. The common theme seems to be that these people are cash cows and the old proverbial "don't bite the hand that feeds you" comes in to play, but guess what? It takes a lot more gems and time to max a base then it does to create a defensless th11 with max drags and lightning.
Dangerous argument since per player engineers spend a lot. Supercell should simply work toward a parity matchmaker with whatever stratgic means they build in. The last update pandered to maxers, so again would be careful with how your arguing your points.Quote:
Originally Posted by STRIKER44
I feel like you and Nightswatch aren't remembering this is a business, the Freemium model demands that you do not mess with revenue streams, if you want to make money. I do NOT say what they're doing is a bad thing, they're a business for hecks sakes, let them do what they need to make money. Since they can't tell us its for money, we need to realise these things ourselves, I've long advocated on these forums, about all the complaining people do, all the time, much of it is never 'fixed' by SC. (Clouds, WAR MM, etc) so I'm trying to assist everyone to understand the truth. But, if you guys don't want to hear it and would rather believe I'm being cynical and that SC 'failed' to fix war MM, then, I can't stop you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
But if a billion dollar company can't fix something in their game so inherently broken - when they have simple suggestions from the forums to fix it... (PVP for Legends for example, weighting TH's by the max TH before it for war, for example) not to mention its their billion dollar responsibility to find a proper fix if these suggestions don't work for them.... then I don't know how SC made it this far to begin with. I just cannot, for the life of me, believe they don't have the answers. They are far from stupid and far from incompetent.
So you either believe SC are incompetent or that they're doing what their financial model says - make money, however that may be (DONT DESTROY ENGINEERED BASES DONT DESTROY ENGINEERED BASES) - I bet this is a daily email sent around in Finland.
I really hope any of you don't think I'm attacking you, I'm not, I'm merely pointing out the options here about what to think. I know what I believe, and I'm FINE with it. I will adapt and move on. Supercell are doing just fine in the financial department, which is fantastic for me as I get to play my favourite game for years to come.
It's your choice what to believe, I'm just offering the options ;)
edit: typo
I don't know about anybody else but our war matchups are now taking a lot longer to find. Our first took a little over 3 hours the second one just under 3 and this last one is at 3 and a half and still searching. Searches never took over an hour before so I believe the parameters for matches is definitely tighter than befor.
Our last search was only 20mins. And we got a bad matchup as well. Our 5 th11s against their 15 th11s. I really have no idea what kind of algorithm they altered, but it's just a mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tominator2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabid
You may have done some programming, may be a "hobby" programmer. But you certainly aren't a professional programmer, to use such terminology. There is no such thing as an ifthenelse loop - "if then else" is a condition, while a loop is a repetitive iteration. Any but the very simplest of loops will of course have conditions within it, but no professional programmer would describe that as an "embedded ifthenelse loop".
Sorry, but what you are saying they "need to comprehend" is something that is meaningless to any professional developer - which I have been for the last 36 years.
The various threads asking "what is engineered" or some variant, all with much disagreement in the responses would indicate otherwise. And from what we have been told, I do nit believe there has been any attempt to create separate queues for different "types" of clan, just the intention (which does NOT appear to be working well at present) to match clans so that both offensive and defensive capabilities are similar.Quote:
It is easy to differentiate between engineered and non engineered, and group them in seperate queues.
Of course. What is not so easy is to determine what that total weight should be. Or even if a "total weight" should be used.Quote:
It's also easy to distinguish high total weight from low.
That, I don't disagree with.Quote:
I am am not against engineering. I just felt it was relevant to expose this algorithm as a failure. Back to the drawing board you go. Either get it right, or don't release it... Especially after all of the hype that it will be an improvement.
But it certainly isn't easy. It is also something which is incredibly hard to properly test, given the numbers of variables involved and the fact that in testing you can only have a relatively small number and variety of clans "searching".
I think they still could, and should, have done better here, from the reports I am seeing.
I would describe two scenarios. I own an Engineered clan and I had been warring at highly successful semi Engineered clan having 40 win streak now.
At my own clan:
[FONT=georgia]I didnt see much of a difference now in matchups than it was with past two weeks. It was almost always we got matched with similar deeply engineered clans as we are. Though our top base is a 9.5 having 68k weights we frequently got matched with infernos of th10 or th11s. We managed to get wins or draws against them. But there were some matches where the opponent clans had no engineered advantage bases. And duly lost as they were poor in offense and defense against us.
Last two wars were ties, opponent had 75k and 73k defenses at top, we had 68, 65, 62. But both team were OP in ooffenses. Last war search finished in 3.5hours! So, I am not complaining about Engineered vs Engineered matches as of yet.
PS: I didn't engineer to take advantages, I have the skills to beat my own th level max accounts. Still I loved to jump up ladders to experience the perks early. You hate it or not I liked it because I am a Engineer in real life as well.
Friendly clan playing as a guest:
But, as I was doing few wars at the other clan before and after the MMA update.. it still felt MMA hardly made differences. For example, current war match, as soon as search was done (it took 20 minutes), we knew opponent wont be able to make it a win against us. Opponent bases has rushes.. but under th10 its th9s then th8s then th7s.. no lopsided... still, they became the victim. Clan name "Minty Hits" level6 and streak wont be broken too soon as it seemed.[/FONT
its too early to say, and Ill bet they will adjust a few things, we dont know yet how well the change has worked, my personal experience in and offence strong clan, is we are getting harder and more even matches. Mismatches will fontinue due to other types of engineeeing as well as from non engineering mismatches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexheney
we need some time for the dust to settle.
Im sure this change is step 1 of 10 toward the matchmaker we all deserve, i hate that people are up in supercells face so early, without data, and so angry. Just makes us seam unreasonable.
Ok I take everything back I said about the matchmaking being good. We just pulled a clan that in their description is an engineered clan. We have one TH11 and 3 th10s. They have 6 th11s and 6 th10s. We have never had such a lopsided matchup before. Adjustments needed!
Can i come see the matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pluribus
Sure, just sent a PMQuote:
Originally Posted by Vikingchief
For the first time ever my most active clan mate said he is getting sick of the game. It is due to our constant mismatching in war.
We are always out numbered at th11. Literally every war. The new matchmaking appears to have made it worse.
I know SC doesn't want to make certain play styles not work but right now ours (maxing or close to it) doesn't work for war.
I know it's rough but you're going to have to make a choice. Someone must be alienated and right now the choice has been to let engineers win.
By not making a change that is your choice. The change needs to be loud and clear. What just happened has not provided any confidence beyond the usual lip service. The proof is in the pudding and my pudding is still very engineered.
I drew a heavilly engineered clan in my latest war matchup. But my lineups are already odd, and I've drawn engineered clans before:
My clan:
1. TH10 (max defenses, almost max offense, 36/40 heroes)
2. TH10 (almost same as 1)
3. TH9.5 (some TH9 defenses upgraded to TH10 level, 35/40 heroes, no infernos, key war troops upgraded, spell, lab, etc.)
4. TH9 (max)
5. TH9 (mid-level, 20/20 heroes)
6. TH9 (mid-level, 20/20 heroes)
7. TH9 (mid-level, 15/15 heroes)
8. TH8 (mid-level, 8 king)
9. TH3
10.TH3
Them
1. TH11 (max TH10 defenses, some TH11 upgrades, max infernoes, Air def, wiz tower, lava / magma walls, no Eagle, 20/37/8 heroes)
2. TH10 (max TH10 defenses, 30/30 heroes)
3. TH9 (hi-level, 30/30 heroes)
4. TH9 (hi-level, 25/25 heroes)
5. TH10 (TH9 defenses, I'm guessing max teslas and extra traps, some extra walls that are wooden, extra spell, army camp, key war troop upgrades, etc. 20/20 heroes)
6. TH10 (TH8 defenses, I'm guessing max teslas and extra traps, some extra walls that are wooden, extra spell, army camp, key war troop upgrades, etc. 20/20 heroes)
7. TH11 (TH8 defenses, I'm guessing max teslas and extra traps, some extra walls that are wooden, extra spell, army camp, key war troop upgrades, etc. 15/15/8 heroes)
8. TH11 (TH8 defenses, I'm guessing max teslas and extra traps, some extra walls that are wooden, extra spell, army camp, key war troop upgrades, etc. 10/10/5 heroes)
9. TH8 (hi-level)
10.TH8 (hi-level)
They have multiple double digit win streaks. Should be a fun war. Based on their stats, I think my win streak will come to an end.
I roster engineer and fully deserve to encounter tough matchups. But I feel bad for other clans that encounter this one--I don't think this is good for the game.
You're right JF, it is not good for the game, but it is good for SC's bank account. Honestly, nothing more needs to be said than that sentence right there. I don't think I'm being cynical, but honestly, what other answer is there?
JF - I hope you weren't offended by my previous posts, I really did not mean to offend or attack you. Cheers
The MM didn't do anything regarding engineers, SC is it so hard to make the MM focus on the TH? TH11 should be placed at TH11 level regardless of their defenses level. This game is getting ridiculous SC.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFSoul
but maxers were already being matched against engineers since forever so, for them, nothing has changed (actually I'm seeing a bit of positive feedback from maxers about this new MM, so the situation might be slightly better for them)Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
the only thing that seems to have changed is that now engineers are getting huge mismatches, which is something to be celebrated imo
Then you seem to have missed quite a good number of posts where maxers, particularly those in clans with multiple th10 and th11 bases up top of their rosters - are saying they are matching more engineered clans that they did previously, and more extremely engineered clans.Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
I've seen a lot of posters saying they're "balanced" but not maxers, and these "balanced" clans often had some very questionable bases in their lineupsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
This is true for us we run a heavy top and 11-9 and were facing many more engineered clans our matchups have been much worse.
Our 3rd war same 10 bases 2-11, 2-10, 6-9 them 5-11, 2-10, 3-9
Last 2 wars ended up tied on stars and we pulled out the win but it was a lucky win on the second war since their #1 bailed on them and didn't attack.
This war looks like a loss clan with a good war record and all the players look active.
We just got probably our worst matchup we've ever had as a clan. (30v30)
Our side
1 Th11 (40/40 heros 15GW no eagle or Infernos) maxed th11 offense
3 Th10s (only one base has infernos, all 30/30 heros)
8 Th9s (mid to high level heros all have xbows)
Their side
5 Th11s (top guy has infernos no eagle, rest have no eagle or infernos, all have maxed offense, high lvl heros)
7 TH10s (none have infernos but maxed war offense and 30/30 heros)
1 Th9
Both sides have th8s and lower to fill in the rest of the map.
We're also on an 11 war streak if that plays into it, not sure if it does.
Accidental double post
Our first war matching with the "updated algorithm" was as lopsided as ever. Got paired against a clan with multiple TH11s with decent defenses, wardens, max troops, and max spell factory and spells: whereas we have zero TH11s on our side. Our top guy is a low level TH10 (no infernos, not rushed) and then a roster of mostly very good TH9s with some solid TH8s and 7s to fill out our roster. But even our nearly-max TH9s were no defensive match for their engineered TH11 troops and spells. I love the game but your war matching algorithm is still obviously working in high favor of the engineers. If people want to engineer that's their business, I accept that it isn't technically cheating even if I do think it violates the spirit of the game in the same way "town hall outside" did a few years ago, just stop giving them war matches where they often get a clear and dominating advantage for no other reason than because they are engineered.
Thanks
Forge, when u have ths more than 2 lower than your top th, it brings more heavily engineered against you.
As for the mm thoughts...
After 3 wars now, all it appears they did was add to the max time it takes to find a more suitable match. As all 3 have been vs the same engineered type clans as before, its just taken a lot longer. Lolz