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Except that the last time SC was transparent with MM, engineering started. If they make the algorithm and how it is weighted public, players will only seek ways to undermine it and take advantage of holes rather than simply understanding match-ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicThorious
Why are we all discussing this here? Engineers are the biggest cash cows. They build their heroes and troops by buying gems. Obviously, they are the ones who need to be encouraged!
You still have difficulties in reading the whole posts. I mentioned at the beginning that my signature was out of date. I have all defs for 11 except the EA. The point is that nearly all war clans have bases that are .5 or close to .5. Which is fair, since this appeared to be the best way to face wars. It's an arms race: people tend to favour offense because enemy clans were doing the same. I completely agree that engineered bases should be penalized but the problem is what an engineered base is and which bases are penalized. My clan was being matched against similar clans, sometimes we had a slight advantage, sometimes we had a slight disadvantage. But this time we are being matched against heavily engineered clans which should be even more penalised than us. But it's not happening and we don't understand why. That's why rules should be clear. Like we know the HP and DPS of each troop, we should know the offensive weight of each player and not only the defensive weight. And even engineered bases should know if they face penalties to make MM fairer. This would be the best way to end engineeringQuote:
Originally Posted by Rst
Unfortunately, we all have to play in the same sandbox. And, trying to play/compete when you know from the get-go that you are unfairly matched is not very fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by freezerclasher
SC was never transparent about MM. At a stage they said they would favour offense, and I agree it was a mistake, but perhaps they were interested in engineered bases because they are more likely to be gemmedQuote:
Originally Posted by xc3ss1v30n3
If they think engineers are gemmers then it would stand to reason that the best way to get them to gem more would be to make maxing an advantage in war. We have got to the saturation point on engineers I would imagine. Giving them a disadvantage now would make them gem their bases to max?Quote:
Originally Posted by VicThorious
Since the update of the algorithm we only face engineered clans where we almost never did before.
We don't have a single engineered or rushed base in our line-up.
Current war:
our line-up:
TH11 (half-way without eagle or new xbow, th10 was maxed)
nearly maxed th10
early th10 (without inferno)
nearly maxed th9 (only xbow missing)
5 th8 (none rushed, none close to max)
1 th7
We face:
TH11 (without eagle, but with extra xbow and except for walls and heroes more upgraded than our th11)
TH11 (without eagle or extra xbow, but with upgraded xbows and 1 upgraded IT)
TH10 (with IT)
TH11 (engineered, poor defenses)
2 TH8's (normal)
TH9 (engineered, basically a th8 with low defences but with the extra AD and probably traps too and of course with th9 troops)
TH8 (normal)
TH11 (engineered, almost no defences)
TH10 (engineered, only cannon)
We might still win if our TH11 performs better. But really, where is the fun of those wars. Many members start to complain and drop out of war because this happens now almost every war since the update.
This isn't fun anymore.
SC: fix it.
Now.
Your game is broken.
Uve got bunch of th10.5 and moaning about unfair match up :D maybe if u didnt had any .5 there wouldnt be any problem
We have 1 10.5.
One.
1.
Learn difference between engineering and planning a th upgrade.
All our TH's are for example properly ordered...
4th war search with using only maxer type bases. No .5s or anything engineered within our lineup. All bases have all defenses for the respective town hall and previous town halls.
Us: 5 th11s. Them: 5 th11s(one is sitting at
17th position with max
Drags)
1 th10. 2 th10
5 th9. 7 th9 with 3
4 th8. 3 th8
2 th7. 2 th6
3 th6. 1 th3
In our 4 war searches using maxer bases only, we have received 4 fair and winnable wars. We do not use anyone who is new to a town hall or anything that may be considered "engineered".
It would seem to me the algorithm is working as we have not met any fully engineered clans and are on a win streak. Check us out if you'd like Gorillas lvl11 #PLRYU20U.
It might help if you provide more information so that we can asses your situation. Sometimes providing your clan tag might help as we can do research with regards to your clan history. We may also require that you provide screenshots of the war map including both offensive and defensive capabilities of both clans. Just make sure that you cover up the names so that you do not get blamed for naming and shaming.
yes as above, nearly maxed th9 without an xbow? and a 10.5?
"We don't have a single engineered or rushed base in our line-up."
:facepalm:
Terrible matchups. We are a normal clan, with no rushed or engineered bases. We normally run a few TH10's with the rest mostly TH9's, and maybe a couple 7 or 8's.
Our last 4 10man's:
1. Opponent has an extra TH10, at the top. Their bottom 10, from the top, did not have infernos, but had TH10 troops and all other leveled defenses.
2. Opponent has an extra TH11, at the top. GW and Eagle included.
3. Opponent has an extra TH11 and TH10, at the top. TH11 had GW and Eagle. Their bottom TH10 had no infernos, but did have TH10 leveled troops and defenses.
4. Opponent has an extra 3 TH11's and 2 TH10's. 1 TH11 and 2 TH10's were at the top. The other 2 TH11's were in spot 7 and 9. All TH11's had gw's and max drags, and a couple maxed out spells.
All matchups were in less than 10min, the top 3 were less than 5 min.
It amazes me how many people don't know the difference between engineering and planning upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by rounz
Going the .5 route isn't engineering.
All our th's are maxed at a th-level before going to the next th-level. So it isn't because that th9 hasn't built its xbow yet, it is an engineered or rushed th. As you can see all our th10's are above th9's, all our th9's are above th8's and so on.
Moreover, only 2 accounts can be blamed going the .5 route, the th11 and th9. The highest th10 has only walls left. The lowest th10 is hardly better than a th9, he just upgraded his th.
Your TH11 will look engineered to the matchmaker (no Eagle)Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFuro
Your TH10 too (no Infernos)
Then you have a spread from TH11 to TH7 so it's also roster engineering
I'm not really sure what you expect...
Of course you're going to see engineered clans, they're just doing a better job than you...
The term 'engineered' has not been formally defined in this forum. People tend to have different definitions.
I'm making the following assumptions about the new MM system:
1. They have an idea of what constitutes an evenly balanced war matchup
2. They have the ability to record war requests (lineups, troop levels, request times etc.)
3. They collect that data over a period of time, say three months
4. They run it through their new tweakable algorithm and see what happens
5. They tweak the bejesus out of it until they get what they want
6. If this is not an improvement on the current system then go back to the drawing board
7. They unleash it on the unsuspecting clash of clan players
Why do they need to still tweak it, what happened in step 5 that could be improved upon now?
Did we rush them? Force them to release it before it was ready?
I hope so, because currently I think the general consensus would be to revert back to the old one :)
And more to the point, why did they tell us, please don't tell us in future when you are improving the algorithm SC unless you are certain that's it's going to help. I'd rather be left in the dark! I'd rather think that I got unlucky than you deliberately gave us the match we currently have :)
Did you look at their troop levels? My clans new war there are several 11's where our 8 and 9s are, and when i look at their bases its totally rushed and i checked the troops and they all suck too. They have that mighty level 5 GW to go along with their 12/14 royals and TH9 leveled troops and spells.
Oh imagine that another bull match. How is it ever a good match when they have 2 th 11 with max war troops vs our th10s. Wish I could get an answer to this. Higher th10 can not compete with th 11 with max troops. Very frustrated. .............this is our 3rd or th4 match vs engineered. Was doing better under last MM algorithm. Getting close to just walking away.
If you base doesn't have every building for your TH level: You're engineered
If any of your buildings or walls are purposely not upgraded: You're engineered
You clearly have multiple engineered accounts in your war roster.
A nearly max th9 without xbow? There's a word for that: engineered
At least 20% of your war roster is engineered.
Lol my assumptions are just slightly different from yours:
- They get the butler to pour another glass of bubbly aboard the yatch.
- They get the P.A. to phone the office cleaner to ask her to post on the forum that they are working on it and all will be well come the imminent update.
- They get the butler to pour another glass of bubbly aboard the yatch.
- They get the P.A. to ask the cleaner to report back on public opinion.
- They repeat steps 1 to 4 in an infinite loop.
Please note this is a simplified view of the truth that doesn’t include the mundane everyday tasks such as stopping in a Caribbean port to restock with the bubbly stuff and a fresh set of dancing girls.
Please also note I invented that with my small mind and shared it with my big mouth. Hahaha
You are just begging to get called out on this....Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFuro
Please define engineering then
Unfortunately for you, I don't think you will find many that agree with your definition if you think a 0.5 isn't engineered.
Is it, "significantly engineered?" That's a harder argument, but simply a yes/no to it being engineered?? That doesn't feel like you will get a lot of support for
Anoushka[Supercell]is online, I sense she is composing a response to the 91 page feedback thread she started here a while ago :)
.5 IS engineering.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFuro
Now, that may not be your intent, but the match maker has no way to judge your intent. Yes, it was previously a smart upgrade path, but under the new MM, it seems that is no longer the case.
The MM simply looks at the bases in your war search and does it's checks: TH9? Check. Upgraded Troops/Heros/Camps/Spells? Check. Upgraded defences? Che........ALERT ALERT NO X-BOWS!!! ENGINEER ENGINEER!!! Of course that's oversimplifying it, but it doesn't know what your intent is with that base, it only knows what it sees, and in its eyes a base w/o the defences built = engineered.
Also this isn't new, .5 have been considered engineering by the MM for a long time, just seems under the new MM it's much more egregious.
You forget that it will takes weeks to make a simple q and a video. How you expect this without months
That is a lot of assumptions that needed to be proven true before the answer can be given to the question:Quote:
Originally Posted by NightsWatchMB
Why do they need to still tweak it, what happened in step 5 that could be improved upon now?
Even after that, only SC can answer the question, not the forum.
I do not know how long you have been in this forum but for a very long time people are complaining how SC does not communicate with the community. I do not think that many will agree to being left in the dark.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightsWatchMB
Engineering : upgrading your th before maxing the previous one defensive wise while (nearly -read: war troops-) maxing offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe
Rushing: upgrading your th before maxing the previous one defensive AND offensive wise.
0.5: smart planning on upgrading and building new defenses AFTER maxing previous TH (offense and defense)
I'm aware of the complaints regarding the communication issues and I agree with most, gameplay mechanics etc. need to be communicated but when there is something that is hidden from us (for good reason presumably) that they are 'improving', why do we need to know, we can't see what they've done, only that they have failed in their expressed intent. Wouldn't it to be better to think they are 'constantly improving it' rather than to have expectations built up and dashed all the time :) The only people that benefit from knowing there is a change is the people that are trying to 'game' it. Keep them in the dark too I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorbash098
Read my response to you above. The MM has no way of knowing what your intent is. Therefore, it classifies .5 as engineering. It has for a long time now.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFuro
I do not know that they have failed. There are clans out there that are getting better match ups since the update. To them the update was not a failure. I know this because a couple of the clans that I am in have been getting good matches where there are no significant advantage on either side. I also know that the forum is filled with complaints about mismatches and its hard to ignore them. However, there are arguments on both sides as to whether or not they truly did get a mismatch. So, I am not saying that they failed or succeed. I do believe them when they say that this is a work in progress and further adjustments need to be made.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightsWatchMB
I don't necessarily disagree with what you say above, but it does make one raise an eyebrow. One should be allowed a reasonable upgrade path that doesn't involve just plopping all defenses down immediately, lest you get labeled an engineer in the MM. Heck, you literally couldn't anyways, as that's the point of the game---to collect resources and build your TH.Quote:
Originally Posted by MouthofSauron
It seems to me the MM should measure the gap between offense vs. defense and the bigger the gap, the more the weight assigned to the TH. 0.5 could get some of a ding, but a full-blown, defenseless TH11 (or whatever) should get a much larger ding
Engineering existed before they gave any details (and the details they did give weren't very detailed), but I agree they don't necessarily need to publish the exact weights and how it works. However, some information so players know what they need to do to get even matches would be nice. Also, if they go a more simple route like a minimum weight or weight tax, that they definitely could specifically tell us about.Quote:
Originally Posted by xc3ss1v30n3
I disagree with those that think a good engineered base costs more gems than a good maxed base, but I agree with you that encouraging a change would result in gem use. That is one reason I think SC should drop the hammer on engineeres, but give a warning of several months.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightsWatchMB
That smart planning you are talking about is intentionally leaving defenses behind because you think it is better for war to do that. That is engineering. There are many forms and that is one of them. When I moved to th11, despite being in legends, I didn't build my eagle until it was the last thing. I upgraded all my th10 stuff before building any new th11 stuff. It was the classic .5 path and I did it for one reason and one reason only: I thought I was engineering a war advantage. If it wasn't for war, I would've build the eagle and other defenses immediately.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFuro
What makes you think that is the generally-accepted definition of engineering?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFuro
I don't think you will find most people agreeing with said definition.
I agree. There is a big difference between saying .5 is a form of engineering vs. saying .5 should be treated the same by the matchmaker as all other forms. I don't know that it is, but many have been reporting that they get the sense that .5s are being treated very harshly by the matchmaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe
In my experience, those who don't want to admit .5 is a form of engineering are those who have said engineering is dirty, evil and dishonorable, while at the same time have themselves tried to gain a war advantage by not building new defenses until their offense is very high. An 8.5 that says .5 isn't engineering often thinks it is perfectly fine to drop 4 zaps and 2 quakes on a max th8 and faceroll it with dragons, but thinks the defenseless base is a cheater. I take a more practical view: if you intentionally upgrade in a way that you think the matchmaker favors, you are engineering, especially if it isn't also an advantage in mutliplayer. But, then, I also don't think "engineer" is a dirty word or even an insult (other than perhaps roster engineering...).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnaf
I don't think you need to go so far as thinking they have changed the weights on heros to explain it. It only needs offence to be counting more than it did (we know it does, they said so), plus that the 10s be big hero 10s and the enemy 11s (not only the 10s mirrors, it can spread further up the line as an average) to have more modest early-mid 30s kings and queens (rather than 40 or bigger), some non-war significant troop upgrades neglected (just a few, not highly manicured), plus the already allowable % difference for a match to come in as in the allowable range to the matchmaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince1999
For example, one of our matches was our 11 th 11 and 4 th10 matching enemy 14 th11 and 1 th10. The total heros were 633/640/220 vs 564/609/256. The total defence weights by gold were 1550k vs 1594k. On paper that doesn't look so bad or one might even think "well I would like those heros", but in reality it's enemy with 6 extra th11 warden attacks, 3 extra eagle artilleries (2 at level 2), 2 extra sets of max infernos and max xbows.
What happens is the gap between the 89k defence weight 40/40 hero th10 and the 30/30/20 105k th11 closes too much when the offence factors more, so where before that th10 might some of the time (say 1 match in 4) face a 100k th11 now it is repeatedly facing 105k or so bigger ones. And since I'd suspect there are more hero in progress th11s out there than big hero big th10s, so that is all you need to end up on the "losing" end of that deal repeatedly as a clan with big hero th10s - they don't need to have changed any hero weights for it to happen, just to have changed what they said they did in putting more emphasis on the existing offence weight in the matching calculation (including those big heros).
8.5 is no longer a route anymore. New Th9’s can’t stay in war and grind heroes anymore. You go 8.5, even if you’re the only one in the lineup, your clan will match a heavily engineered clan. Now we are forced to drop xbows with level 10/1 heroes.
That is the point though. We want regular matches. I know it’s hard for some players to start dropping the new defenses.
en•gi•neer•ing (ˌɛn dʒəˈnɪər ɪŋ)
n.
1. the practical application of science and mathematics, as in the design and construction of machines, vehicles, structures, roads, and systems.
2. the action, work, or profession of an engineer.
3. skillful or artful contrivance or manipulation
Got this from the dictionary. Pay attention to #3. If you are MANIPULATING and doing upgrades in such a way to minimize war weight... it's engineering.
.5 is just as much engineering as anything else.
There you go, problem solved.
You couldn't make these definitions up...oh ... you haveQuote:
Originally Posted by MaxFuro
If people really wanted the strongest defence they would drop infernos at th10 and the eagle at th11 at the earliest opportunity before anything else. It is a no-brainer.
The reason people don't is to try to outwit the MM.
I cant think of any other reason so 0.5 is engineering (and not so smart now)
I agree with all above, save for how roster engineering is somehow more insulting. That's just strange, my good man...Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
I totally agree that, in some scenarios, it can be head-shaking, but I still really fail to see how engineering a TH is somehow less of a sin, to say nothing about an ~entire clan that engineers itself to get favorable match-ups, the latter being the single most frustrating thing to my clan and it's not even close...
@Anoushka, for my comment to the changes to match making, I will give you a stat from my non competitive (not so organized) clan since your matchmaking . We are 1-5 in the past 6 wars including 4 war lose streak. In those 5 losses, the average destruction is 100% (one was 99.5% but they looted instead of getting a perfect war).
My question for you, Anoushka, is that do you think that is fun? 4 losses in a row all knowing we had no chance of winning (could of tied 1 or 2) and other clan had obvious advantage of engineered th11s when we have some 9.5s at most.
I know there is lots of chat here about engineering back and forth which I don't have the time to read nor do I care. What I cared about is enjoying the game which I don't do anymore. Feels more like a chore. I want to play for fun, lossing to a perfect war here and there is fine, but when it's constantly cause of unfair advantages, the game is no longer fun.
That being said, I'm done with war and maybe the game. Been disappointed for a while now. We get temporary troops when SC other game is constantly adding new content. The new builder base is disappointing with no clan function and horrible AI.
Yeah, I know, I've admitted before I don't know that my feelings toward roster engineering are all that logical. I have no problem at all with engineering an account. It doesn't make sense, especially for second accounts, for people to build it in a way they know is bad for the match. It makes sense to instead build it in a way that is good for war. However, roster engineering just feels different to me, especially when it is taking junk bases and filling up the roster. Those aren't actually accounts that are meant to be played, they are just junk to throw the match. It feels different than actually building up a 9.11 or something like that. It isn't all that logical, but that is the feeling I get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe
Personally, I think the matchmaking has been much worse since the update. The past few wars we've been in have been severely matched favorably towards our opponent. I think heros need to have a higher offensive weight. Yeah they help on defense, but with their abilities, they're much more powerful on offense. One thing I learned a long time ago is that high level hero's help a whole lot in attacks. Engineers tend to have higher hero's as compared to their counterparts, on average. Make heros a higher war weight. Just my my immediate opinion.
I feel rather as you do, for me it's that these bases aren't seriously meant to attack anything, being just there to pull the total weight down for the rest. Apologies to that rare clan whose roster actually is half th3 friends playing with your th8-11s and you were hoping to pull an equal number of th3s for them to have a fun fair war.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2222
Since the war matchmaking update, my clan has seen more unfair matchmaking than before. Of course, this is only my clan, and others may have varied results. Our most recent matchup has also been unfair, yet not our worst. Sure, we have a few th10.5, th9.5, but thats only without us building the newest big defense (eagle, inferno). Our top 2 guys are th11 with everything built, i'm number 3 with max th10 heros and max 10 heros (queen 41) and a lvl 8 warden. our next 3 are th10s 30+ heros, next 2 th9.5 30+ heros, 9-13 are th9, 14 and 15 are max th8 except walls. our enemy: number 1-2: max th11 except walls (walls level 11+), 3-4: max th10 lvl 35+ heros, #5 th11 with 3 lvl 2 xbows and no inferos/eagle, 6 th9.5 with 40 heros, 7 th9.5 30+heros, 8-9: th9 with 20 max heros, 10: th11 with 21/20 queen/king and 10 warden, 11-13 th9 with an average hero level of 12, 14 max th8 everything, 15 th8 no walls, with lvl 1 king, lvl 3 air defense, level 3 archer tower, and level 3 cannon (not max offense). Now i'm not saying that my clan is perfection in terms of fair matchups. We are all for it, but have basically been forced to go some .5 to get a more fair match in the past. This match seems ridiculous.
No matter how our upgrades go, we do not have a th level higher than somebody who's th level is lower. This isn't the first matchup we've seen. Even with non .5 wars, we constantly match against engineers. If anything, i feel like the new matchmaking has been more lopsided than normal. Ever since "engineering" became big, I have seen a constant: high level heros win and dominate within engineers. So just a thought: why not make heros on offense a higher weight? It seems like the team has only taken into account troop levels and not hero levels. Yet troop levels a lot of times do not make a huge difference (from what I've seen). I understand that everybody has a different story. I'm curious to see who else has had a similar experience. If matchmaking was even, I guarantee all of my clan would drop new defenses. All we want are fair matchups all around. Happy clashing to all!
There is quite a lot of discussion already on this in both the feedback sticky and war forum area (which are better locations for this post). I suggest you have a read there, particularly in relation to your suggestion re increasing hero offence weight. Increasing king or queen weights would further exacerbate a problem many maxer build style clans are facing as an effect of this new matchmaker, where big hero big th10s are repeatedly facing th11 with both big offence and big defence in multiple lanes. I think increasing warden weight would help, whereas any king/queen weight increases would make that situation worse (reasoning explained in other threads).
Same 10 bases for us 2-11, 2-10, 6-9's
Them 6-11's, 2-10, 2-9's
I just don't get it 6 wars all so different in the draws. We have not changed our bases so it has to be something in the matchmaker that's strange.
How is it possible to match 6-11's vs 2
The number of inferno and eagle should not matter. But for reference we have the same number of eagle and inferno. They just have 3x the number of th11 attacks available on our top bases.
hi there
War Matchmaking always unfair to us please kindly fix this otherwise we are losing interest in coc...opponent side always gets an extra advantages with rushed bases
in last couple of wars, it always has been a problem but let me give info on my last wars
2nd last war we were 4 th10s and opponents side 7 th10s
last war we were 4 th10s and opponents side 1 th11 and 6 th10s
and WOW now in current war we are 4 th10s and opponents side 3 th11s with max troops and 4 th10s
it's getting worst war after war...kindly do something about it
Peace out
After 6 consecutive wins, we faced a hyper engineering clan right after the MM update. We lost that war but now on a 5 win streaks and all with 'normal' clan - maxer & some .5.
Current war also with similar clan that mirrors us - max th11 and couple of 10.5 (+/- heroes lvl). Looks like MM is doing its job so far. Gonna be a more/less an equal fight which will be fun.
Any of your th10s are max ? My clan mate and myself used to be max th10s (no 1 & no 2) and guess what - we drew strong th11s and some have max warden. Super tough to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasean
We upgraded to th11 to stand a fighting chance. Suggest to move up to th11 if you guys are near / max th10s. Tough position to be in war as no 1 if you are not the highest th. As you know, war outcome is mostly determined at the top.
This "balancing" update is THE WORST thing you all at SC have done to this game so far. My clan has no rushed/lopsided/engineered bases yet we keep getting matched against clans that are. Per our 2 legit TH11 accounts, we are faced with 4-5 TH11s all with a mixture of TH10/11 defenses and max troops and heroes. This has cause clan wars to be extremely weighted in favor of one clan over the other and adds an unfair advantage into clan wars. I'm a veteran of 5 years with this game and I'm thinking of walking away this terrible update is resolved asap. How is it fair to war clans like mine with members like mine who have played the game as designed yet we keep losing to clans who rush and manipulate the alorithms to cheat the system for an advantage to make up for their lack of skill?
I think SC should clearly say whether they consider 0.5 engineered bases and if they acknowledge monopaths (i.e. th11 with max royals, laloons and everything else underdeveloped) or not. Then people would know what to do to avoid unfair matches. Most people agree they prefer to avoid unfair matches than randomly gaining advantage in their wars
We faced an unfair matchup again. We just have one Th10 at the top, about 6 mid level Th9s and some th8 and th7s below them. Our opponent has two Th10s, maxed, and about 7 or 8 Th9s below them, then an engineered TH11 again. Max troop and spell capacity, maxed troops but mid heroes. But that won't make any difference cause they can clearly wipe out all our top bases with ease. Sad the new MM algorithm still leads to such match ups even after all the hype and long wait. They had a couple of weak bases at the bottom, may be that made the difference? It's still a very bad match up for us though. Far from a "fair" game.
I can sum the new matchmaking up in one word...BOVINE MALE FECES...Well, technically three words I guess...but you get the gist....
After War MM more mismatch is going on in my clan our top 5 e th 10 n opponents top r th11s with max heroes,troops n max eagle so we want more improvements n band the engineering bases or do 1 update that b4 putting xbow or inferno they can't proceed to next th like BH from this no 1 can do stop like this n they have to upgrade it to proceed to next so I hope this idea will work to bring a fair war.That's my opinion , thanks.
My clan has done three matchups and have ran into three clans with multiple .5's and engineered bases. We have no .5's or engineered bases.
My clan war roster consists of three true TH10s, a brand new TH10, five true TH9s, and a true TH8.
Prior to the "fix," maybe we'd see a clan with a true TH11 every other week. Now, we're seeing matchups with at least two 10.5's and at least two other engineered TH11s. We stopped filling up our war cc's because we know we can't compete. No one's made an attack on our side in two weeks.
My clan is #2Q0VY99J
As a maxed th9 centrist clan, we routinely draw th10's. As a believer in ability and skill over anything else, i attack true peers....example: th9 on th9, th8 on th8, etc.....
I developed engineered th10's to deal with this problem. My engineered th10's attack their th10's. Is that bad?
I dont know why my th9 draws th10's. I just got sick of dealing with an inferno or two and the enemy having an extra spell and more troops.
Problem solved.
Very disappointed with the new changes. Or is there really update?
7 TH11 (engineered with max troops heroes) (no eA, no infernos, but max xbows and max defense, walls)
3 TH 3s
Vs
1 TH11
1 TH10
5Th9.75 no infernos
1th8
2th3s
how is this fair? Overpowering TH11 with max heroes troops just scoring perfect 3 stars.
Meanwhile, TH10s and 9.75s barely had the troop strength to damage max th11 xbows
♥♥♥ seriously.
The TH11s with max bowlers and lavas wardens are messing everything up
Umm, you've been out-engineered?! This is the game you are playing, you can't really complain just because you've lost!Quote:
Originally Posted by ahkautan
It is fair because you both started trying to game the same MM, they did it better than you - you lose!
Now if you weren't trying to game the MM and actually just have the war decided on your attacking skills then you might have something to complain about.
If you want a fair match, drop the .5s and new town hall people from your roster. You might want to go back and read many of the previous posts in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahkautan
Kind of hard to complain when you're engineering your roster as well with the th3's😏.
Wow, that is a serious mismatch. It is basically in-game "modding" or "sand-boxing."Quote:
Originally Posted by ahkautan
So many surplus enemy 11 attacks. Wow.
I always find it strange when people with engineered bases complain of a mismatch. The whole idea of engineering is to fool the MM system into giving you an insurmountable advantage in war. It stands to reason that the war itself doesn't matter, it's all in the lineup you present. When you are matched your war is done, you either have that insurmountable advantage you were looking for or you don't. Game over either way! :)
You complain about not getting a fair match but that wasn't what you wanted!!!!!!!!!!
Seriously, quit it already!
Someone needs to be fired at SuperCell over this Matchmaking change disaster. I've been playing this game since a week after launch in 2012 and next to the TH11 roll out disaster this is the worst thing EVER to happen to this game. I seriously question whether the developers play out in the "real" Clash of Clans world or stay inside some kind of closed developer server.
Prior to the "update" my clan would see clans attempting to engineer but failing in some small way giving us a chance at winning. After the update ALL we have matched up against is hard core CLANS who are engineered. This is the problem. It's not that one individual base in engineered - IT IS THAT THE ENTIRE CLAN IS SET UP TO BE ENGINEERED.
Has SC figured out yet that a vast majority of fair play clans have stopped warring - out of total frustration - and this is why everyone is now matching up with engineers?
I'm not sure SuperCell understands these simple principles and at this point I have doubt that they actually care. The creative use of language to make engineering/exploit clans into "play to they way to want to" shows utter contempt for those who don't exploit the system.
The abject mendacity of a company who once removed Town Hall sniping because it was, "Not how the game was meant to be played," yet now say that those who exploit the system as "allow(ing) players to retain their creativity in their base design and play style." is asinine.
More radio silence from SuperCell will only cause more players to quit. Face it SC, the only clans now warring are engineers and their victims.
Cannon cart: still useless.
Matchmaking is worse i think. Before the updated had a lot of close wars. +- 1 or 2 stars, and a lot of percentage tie breakers. Since, a 12 star win only one percentage. We are not seeing much of the mini maxes, but more of the th3's at the bottom and max 11's at the top. And the most recent one are modders. The top folks left the clan and then came back and performed perfect 3 star attacks.
SC hasn't fixed anything, but, I'm afraid, only made things worse.
You really have 2 leagues of play in clash. You have your pros and semi-pros in one class. These guys are all maxed th11's. And engineering means nothing to them. In fact it is useless. Match making is not even an issue with these folks. Their gripe was with the modding and sand boxing. That problem is suppose to be fixed.
Then u have the amateur class. This is a hodge podge of anything. It is the bulk of the game and it is vulnerable to both match making and engineering.
The only true and real way to avoid the match making and engineering woes are to become a maxed 11 and join a pro/semi pro clan.
Meanwhile, if u are not willing to to become pro and maxed 11, engineering is a valueable and strategic component of the game. Mind you, i am not talking skill or ability, but rather tactics.
Remember guys, engineering has been around for at least 2-3 years, and these people have spent alot of time and money on their accounts too. For clash to "punish" and "alienate" engineers to make this over hyped and inappropriate used term "fair-play" possible is perhaps not in supercells best interest.
My arguement and stance is that as long as supercell is making profits and people are playing the game, match making in their eyes is just fine.
Supercell has this impossible job of making "everyone" happy.
My advice for those who are genuinely upset and irritated, stop playing the game. Jake did, so can you. Alot of awesome video games out there.....
As for me, I still enjoy the game. I think supercell does a good job. There are things I dont like, but overall, this has been my favorite video game to date despite its inherent flaws.
And like every video game to date, i eventually stop playing it, for whatever reason.....like pong, space invaders, donkey kong, etc.....u get the picture. Every video game has a shelf life with me. And then you move on.....
I have not had enough wars in yet between the two clans I participate in to be certain, but it appears that under certain exact conditions you have a very high probability to draw a fair match. Once you get outside those certain conditions you appear to be categorized as outside the norm, those have a very high probability of an uneven (on paper) match.
Reading all the posts above seem to support this. I suspect it's the new TH9, 10 & 11s seem to not fit those conditions, not the heavy 10s. Those of you complaining about heavy 10s matching 11s, are any of your TH10s or TH9s new? (any missing defenses)
Ok, after 5 wars since the new MM system, I really miss the old one.
We are getting matched against engineers (TH11s with TH8 defenses) like never before. We have zero engineered bases, just 3 early TH10s with no infernos.
These unfair matches was a rare occasion, but now, it's normal.
BTW we have zero TH11 in our team, so these engineered TH11s 3 staring our TH10s is a crazy disadvantage.
Can we revert the changes please ?
I've seen some of these, and no - there are extreme maxer clans with no base much below totally maxed (I mean barely a single upgrade missing, let alone entire guns) getting a large discrepancy in the number of TH10s and 11s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer339
And although there's a lot of people saying "get rid of every every engineered base and you'll get good matches" if you look at the details it doesn't always tell the same story. In some cases people meant they got rid of their last x.5. In others they got rid of some fully engineered base and now have only x.5s and claim they get good matches. I've seen cases where people say getting rid of every last x.5 got them a good match - but if you look at the details the match was against a clan with that did have x.5s - so how is that supposed to work? It's hardly evidence that x.5s have been separated from non-x.5 clans even though it was presented as such.
Simplistic approach. Can anyone see a problem with MM using offense ONLY as the determining factor? The game is completely based on attacking and not defending (although, obviously defenses do happen). People can upgrade their bases in whatever way they want, but if you have a strong offense you're going to be matched against someone else that has strong offense, so, you'd better have some defenses too. I'm struggling to think of ways this kind of system could be exploited. I doubt someone is going to max their defenses and keep all their offense low LOL.
Yes, a TH8-10 clan would stick in 1 base with max TH11 defence and only barch, which would match as some very low base. It wouldn't even attack, and their other players would cover the extra target. Meanwhile the enemy can only possibly get 2* from it, and likely only 1*Quote:
Originally Posted by xc3ss1v30n3
I guess the exact opposite of what happens now then. Oh well ):Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
It's easy to say to drop the .5s. Most of these .5s are players focused in war who tried to get a fair advantage in war (made public by SC) in detriment of farming and trophy pushing. Now (and all of a sudden) they are paired with heavily engineered bases. If you say these dedicated players should be out of war, when shall you tell them to come back to war? It takes time to build up defenses, particularly at th11Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpur5
Take your time and build defenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicThorious
Well, I am a th11. (Twisted #2LGYRU9C). I have all the defenses of th11 and the previous ones. I Also have some in my clan who are/were .5s. They are no longer in wars and understand they're ouy until they get xbows or infernoes or whatever they're missing. Because as you stated, they are DEDICATED to the game, none have complained and only want is best for the clan as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicThorious
When you find the right people and explain the ins and outs of what is happening, they make the necessary changes. Sure it sucks but waiting 14 days on a defense is no different than those waiting 14 days for max bowlers. Time is relative.
Does it mean staying out of war? Of course not, most people are not keen to wait since they war full time. And I think this is the biggest problem as people need time to adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by junaidd123
My clan had 30 ppl playing last war, now there are only 20. Feel sorry for them. Big unexpected kick in their teeth
That guarantees you squat. We have all maxer bases with all defenses built and we still get bad match-ups against engineered clans.Quote:
Originally Posted by junaidd123
New war:
30v30. Both clans heavily engineered.
Defense:
We: 109, 90, 90, 89, 86, 83, 81, 77, 73, 73, 71
They: 95, 94, 91,91, 91, 90, 87, 86, 86, 84, 83
Offense: We have 9 strong th11 attackers, they have 6. (12 -9 if I count weaker th11 attackers, too)
I'm not sure if I like this match. It's much easier for them to 3 star our 2-30 but our 1 is very strong and we have more attacks.
Completely agree with you. We are strong clan with a solid core, eventually we'll overcome. But it's hard, none of us is happy with the changes that were too drastic in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpur5
If you need to do more than drop the eagle on a TH11, you're not really talking about a .5. If someone has to do more on defenses than the eagle & the inferno as a TH11, they're heavily engineered. Same thing for 8.5/9.5 bases with no infernos/xbows.Quote:
Originally Posted by VicThorious
If someone has defenses so far behind that it takes more than a month to balance out without spending gems, it's hard to feel bad for them. They knew what they were doing & I doubt that's the only account those players have available.
perhaps, but if you had no offense as a th11 you'd have a helluva time maxing out your defenses. Good luck raiding other TH11's endlessly with a low level army.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnyxDS
I do think Offense is the key in war. You do get to attack 2x, by making it the primary determiner in war weight you would force people to balance their bases.
The ship has sailed already, but really something like the builder base where you couldn't upgrade to the next TH level without certain upgrade requirements being met would just solve all the engineering. but too late for that...
More data:
This should be a huge win for the engineer "haters."
I am currently in a war with my heavily engineered clan.
My team:
Top 5 bases: maxed th7
6-10: maxed th8 offense, th6 defense
11: maxed th8 offense, th5 defense
12-15: maxed th6 offense, th5 defense
Enemy team:
Top 5: maxed th8's offense and defense.
6: poorly engineered th9
7-15: rushed bases.
Conclusion: enemy has huge advantage defensively. Offensively: we are tied.
This will be a 45-45 draw since my ability and skill to kill enemy th8's is excellent.
I use my engineering to compensate for match making fails. Even when i get out gunned defensively, i can still manage a tie.
And i dont dip. My 8's will be attacking their 8's. And i dont have a th9 in the fight.
Still will be a fun war.
A new th9/10/11 who hast just upgraded his th is heavily engineered because he doesn't drop the biggest gun first? :saywhat:Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefTuk
Today we have 6 TH11s. The enemy clan has 17 TH11s, 8 defensless roster engineered accounts at the bottom, and zero TH9s.
Darian and Supercell might be happy with the changes but we are not. This is only a 2 war win streak for us. Can't find a single player who is excited for this war.
Sounds like a fair match huh? I also wonder what kind of line up Darien has in his clan. 4 of 6 of our matches since MM update has been like yours above a very poor match. Still wonder why they can't do a final check on the match to compare ths to see if the max th war troops are equal at the top half of the offensive side. All were asking for is an equal number of th (max) war attacks on each side. Do the match if it thinks the match is close, than compare ths that have max war troops. If they are equal allow the match. If not keep searching. This would even allow heavily enginnered clans, rushed clans and maxers to get even matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by HwrdII
So War #7 we got butchered 69 (80) v 79 (91) but given how heavy engineered they were and the huge no of 11s they had, it was expected.
War #8
us
1-12 TH11
13-14 TH11 No Ea (new TH) both have 10 gw
15-28 TH10
29-30 TH9
them
1-15 TH11 with EA
16-22 TH10
23 TH11 GW lv 7 Max hound, rage
24 TH10
25-26 TH9
27 TH11 GW lv 12 Max hound, bowler, Valk, loon, barb, archer, rage
28 TH11 GW lv 8 Max hound, loon, rage
29 TH10
30 TH11 Max miner no GW
They are clearly engineered, but not very well.
They have 5 TH11 advantage, but we have hero advantage.
Id say we have advantage on defence on our TH10s
looks like a close war, and will be down to how our TH11s perform on first attacks.
best match up we've had, which says something!!!
War 9 & 10 will prove interesting as it will be 40+ in line up.
I guess I'll pile on.
We haven't had a fair matchup since the update....it actually seems much worse.
Our team this war:
3 th11s, 11 th10s, 16 th9s. 2 th9s are newer and don't have xbows, 2 th10s are newer and don't have infernos.
Our enemy:
11 th11s, 16th 10s, 3 th9s. All th11s have GW with the ability
Thank goodness for leagues or I probably wouldn't be playing this anymore.
A suggestion: Can you make a checkbox for 'no-dipping' that you can select when searching for a war, and only match us to clans that have the same option selected and have it enforced in game? That makes .5s and engineers worthless, but would still allow them to war against other engineered clans by leaving the option unselected.
I'm the only max th10 in my clan side except the walls and others th10s aren't max, plus I'm not in a mood to head to th11 for now until I'm down with the max walls plus max troops until then we have no other choice than to keep struggling and wait for coc to fix this mess that's all, thanks for the heads upQuote:
Originally Posted by rrru
Bro, i feel ur pain. Ur in a tough spot. U draw th11's in war and its hard for 10's to triple other th10's. In fact, th10 is thee hardest level in clash. If u go to th11, u will be treated instantly as a 0.5 base and draw even tougher 11's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasean
Th10 might be the biggest money and gem draw for clash, so expect no changes soon.
Match making is the other huge money and gem draw for clash. This results in clans trying to get the advantage by gemming collectively.
I stopped developing at th9 and for good reason. The game just never ends.
It would make .5 worthless but it wouldn't affect the real engineers. A th11 with the weight of a th8 could still hit your 1 if it's th11.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnOPaul
I disagree because it would allow attacking up. TH10s can 3 star engineered 11s. Even if you say they get more shots on our 11s than we do theirs, it would balance out somewhere else in the lineup. No dipping basically turns one large war into a bunch of mini wars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin94
For example,
Our war right now is:
US 3 th11 / 11 th10 / 16 th9
Them 11 th11 / 16 th10 / 3 th9.
With this rule, we would have 10 th9s that couldn't be hit since they would only be able to hit 6 of them.
The thread is now into its 100th page.Dont know how long it goes until a staff member replies.
Ever since the update, my clan has had horrible war matchups. We used to have town halls that near matched our bases but now it is ridiculous. Their clan
-max th11
-max th9
-max th8
-th8
-th8
-maxed th7
-maxed th7
-th7
-engineered th7
-rushed th7
Meanwhile my clan
-Max th10
-engineered th9
-max th8
-max th8
-th7
-th7
-rushed+inactive th7
-max th6
-th6
-th6
Now you can see why I am complaining. It's not just one war either. It's a repeating loop of bad war matchups. 3 bad matchups in a row exactly like this. I wish supercell reverts this update and goes back to the old one where we would face a bunch of th8s over th9s and 10s. Anyone else experiencing this?
Ok, it depends on your roster. An example against this idea:Quote:
Originally Posted by AnOPaul
One clan: 5 th11 / 5 th10 / 8 th9 / 2 defenseless th11
Other clan: 5 th11 / 5 th10 / 10 th9
The second clan would still have a huge advantage because 16 attacks for 10 th9 are more than enough.
you have an engineered base, a rushed base, and a fairly wide TH spread...that's a recipe for bad matches, especially on the new system that is aiming to match engi with engiQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryry77
Lets just get something clear. We aren't engineered but we do try to get our offense up first so that we have a chance of nailing a like TH level i.e. dragons level 3 TH8 loons TH9s. Most of our players are building so their defences is matching their offense. But we seem to be matched against very heavily engineered clans.
Last war we had no TH11's but matched against 2. This war no TH11's again but matched against 4? ♥♥♥ Lets be clear. If it wasn't for the TH11's we would think this is a great matchup as TH levels match against THlevels. But with high TH11's we have absolute not chance of winning and can only hope for a draw. Pretty boring and I'm getting pretty close to getting bored with wars which is the only reason I play.
NOTE: Engineered 11's and 9's. And please don't comment on our spread. We have a spread of players at different levels. People have to start playing somewhere...
WAR SEARCH TIME: Took about 30 odd minutes to match-up so not a crazing search time.
TH K Q W Xbows Ifs Eagle TH K
Q W Xbows Ifs Eagle 10 28 17 0 2 x lvl 3 0 0 .75 D 11 28 45 20 2x lvl3 0 0 .5D 10 19 15 0 2 x lvl 1 0 0 ~ .5 D 10 8 7 0 0 0 0 .5D 9 20 19 0 2 x lvl 3 0 0 Max D 9 13 11 0 2x lvl3 0 0 Max D 9 10 8 0 2 x lvl 1 0 0 9 7 10 2x lvl2 9 10 5 0 2x lvl 1 0 0 9 5 10 0 lvl3, lvl2 9 10 10 0 2 x lvl1 0 0 9 7 10 2 x lvl1 9 13 10 0 lvl1 lvl 2 0 0 8 10 9 16 17 0 0 0 0 8 7 8 10 0 0 0 0 0 Full D 8 9 8 10 Full D 8 6 9 6 0 0 0 0 0 8 6 8 10 3/4 D 7 5 8 6 0 0 0 0 0 7 4 8 4 0 0 0 0 0 7 2 8 8 11
32
23 12 7 3 7 5 7 3 11
32
28 14 7 3 11
29
20 20 7 3 9
9 8 7 5 9
7 9 7 0 9
7 8 8 0 9
6 9 6 0 3 0 5 0 3 0 3 0 3 0 3 0 3 0
I'll still disagree but even so, I'd take that matchup any day over the matchups we are getting now...wouldn't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin94
You say 16 th9 attacks is good enough for 10 th9s. I think you are overlooking how hard th9s can be when only th9s can hit them and they are max bases with tough designs.
In our league now I'm seeing plenty of th9s not get three starred due to no dipping and solid base designs. Check out any league that has no dipping and you will see the same.
Our clan just started league play....our first match was breakdown 2/5/8 .....6 of our th9s were 3 starred immediately (because we had poor bases or people didn't realize that friendly war bases are different than regular war bases)..but our top th9 had a tough base and was only 2 starred with 6 defenses. We only 3 starred half of theirs and realize we have work to do on attacking and base building..
Maybe it's different with leagues but matchmaking is for regular wars and there our strong th9 usually 3 star with their first or second hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnOPaul