War MM & Cannon Cart changes - the FEEDBACK thread!

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Originally Posted by Bigtone2001

Come Join Us for even bigger mismatch.
War #4 (since new MM)
us
1-7 TH 11 with EA
8 TH 11 no EA (fairly new TH)
9-17 TH10 with Inferno
18 Th10 no inferno (new th10)
19-20 th9

them
1-13 th11 with EA
14-16 th10 with inferno.
17-19 th8
20 th11 defenceless (Max GW, Bowlers, Healers, Dragon, Giant, archers, hound + spells)


Really fair and even War, nice to see matchmaking working at its best.
4 wars in to new matchmaking and 3 serious mismatches. Only 1 even war.

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I have no trouble believing it, there seems a real problem with multiple th10 matching to multiple 11s in wars right now, not just the regular one extra you might get due to available pool size (though I do wonder how available pool side has worked out that we've only ever once been that clan who had the extra 11!). Cnaf is getting similar matches to you in a clan including more th10s than mine. At present my clan would do better benching us th10s until we are eagle 11s, too heavy to pull any engineered malarkey and no longer vulnerable to the 10/11 matching.

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Originally Posted by Prince1999

You can keep misrepresenting this all that you want. The idea has been circulated enough that most people are familiar with it. A new TH10 would not gain one drop of weight for their TH. They would weigh exactly what they did as a max TH9. They would match with exactly the same bases that they did as a max TH9 (except matching is done by clan and not by base, but that is a different issue.) The only base that would gain when they went up a TH level would be the heavily engineered base that skipped defenses and lab upgrades. They would gain all the weight that they were hiding from as a TH9.

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I'm not trying to misrepresent anything, I'm trying to understand how this would work in practice. The only way this makes engineering "go away overnight", is the th tax is sufficient to match a th11 defenseless base with a th11 non engineered base right?

Well how does that tax affect a th10 that maxed heroes, walls, and most of their lab the day their townhall upgrade finishes?

If the townhall alone carries enough weight to match you against the same level townhall, where is the incentive to take new townhalls to war?

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Originally Posted by Tomville

"Originally Posted by Bigtone2001
20 th11 defenceless (Max GW, Bowlers, Healers, Dragon, Giant, archers, hound + spells)"

I have no trouble believing it, there seems a real problem with multiple th10 matching to multiple 11s in wars right now, not just the regular one extra you might get due to available pool size (though I do wonder how available pool side has worked out that we've only ever once been that clan who had the extra 11!). Cnaf is getting similar matches to you in a clan including more th10s than mine. At present my clan would do better benching us th10s until we are eagle 11s, too heavy to pull any engineered malarkey and no longer vulnerable to the 10/11 matching.

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I don't think the answer is to go up (adding more offense and defense). This system is based upon the idea that the base is worth the sum of its parts. Thus, a maxer base that has kept its lab updated and all defenses updated at every TH level is always going to weigh more than an engineered TH11 with single path (as above with just air) upgrades. He is not paying for valks, hogs, golems, giants, healers or other off path troops, maxers are. This MM change was doomed from the start to benefit engineers more that maxers.

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Originally Posted by Bigtone2001

Simple to fix matchmaking, but it would upset the rushers and engineers.

Give each TH a base ranking of 1000, then 495 for defences, and 495 for troops and spells.
a Max TH 10 would weight in at 10990, which would be less than any rushed th11 (th11 starts at 11000 regardless of th11 upgrades)
a th9.5 (troop & spells) would be 10495. (Assuming no th10 defence upgrades)
a th9.5 (defences, no troop or spells) would also be 10495.

an engineered th11 with th9 defences and Max th11 troops etc would weight 11495
a new th11 who was maxed at TH10, would only weigh 11000 until they do any upgrade.

doing this would effectively match each th, give or take 2 bases etc to speed search up.

Problem solved.

It encourages you to Max before moving up, and only significantly punishes those who engineer (th9 defence, th11 offence) as these will now be matched against other th11s, not th9/10.

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By far the best Idea I've seen!! Greate Idea Bigtone 👍🏻

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Originally Posted by Prince1999

I don't think the answer is to go up (adding more offense and defense). This system is based upon the idea that the base is worth the sum of its parts. Thus, a maxer base that has kept its lab updated and all defenses updated at every TH level is always going to weigh more than an engineered TH11 with single path (as above with just air) upgrades. He is not paying for valks, hogs, golems, giants, healers or other off path troops, maxers are. This MM change was doomed from the start to benefit engineers more that maxers.

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I think you've missed my point - my clan has only max th11 and a handful of 10s. For us the answer would be 10s to go up as with an eagle, just one th11 army and small warden our bottom end would then outweigh many clans fielding engineered 11s - About the worst match they'd be facing would be about equal offence and slight lower but still pretty fearsome defence. Having small th11s in war beats having large 10s in war, as you've both upped the chances of not being 3 starred and added bases that can pull solid results on another th11, rather than not having same size targets so scrabble hitting up for low 2 stars or more often misses. So by getting heavier you're going to pull harder enemies, but without lacking so many of the tools to handle them and without being so vulnerable to being squashed so easily. That's the answer I see, unless Supercell tweaks more to put the brakes on so many matches of multiple 10s to multiple 11s.

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Originally Posted by Reefus

I'm not trying to misrepresent anything, I'm trying to understand how this would work in practice. The only way this makes engineering "go away overnight", is the th tax is sufficient to match a th11 defenseless base with a th11 non engineered base right?

Well how does that tax affect a th10 that maxed heroes, walls, and most of their lab the day their townhall upgrade finishes?

If the townhall alone carries enough weight to match you against the same level townhall, where is the incentive to take new townhalls to war?

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I completely agree that a townhall tax will penalise rushers. And most guys who are commenting here belong to war clans that dont accept rushers. However, whatever SC has tried with some complicated algorithm has not worked. Hence some kind of tweak is needed. That is why i propose that there should be a minimum war weight for a Th level but it should not be the previous TH level but 2 levels below. So a TH11 will have a war weight of max TH9 level. this would mean the defensive weight of a TH11 defenseless will increase by 40-45 k in terms of gold weight. Coupled with the offensive weight of the max troops and GW (with higher weight as mentioned below) will result in engineers matching engineers or engineered TH11s matching TH10s who should be able to 3 star all these engineered TH11s (unlike now matching TH7/TH8 who have no hope of 3 starring these engineers).

The main issue is defenseless TH11 with GW. They should be specifically targeted with higher offensive/defensive war weight for GW. A max GW should have a defensive and offensive weight much more than a max AQ. Empirical evidence suggest it is lower or nearly same.

These 2 tweaks will not end engineering but will substantially increase the cost/benefit ratio while not penalising rushers.
Disclosure: I have an engineered account only because i have to cover for the rushers who cannot 3 star opponents 3 places below.

Whatever changes were made only fixed it halfway. The other half would be to have a highest townhall based matchmaking, regardless of the position. So if the highest townhall is a th9 in one clan, the search will reject every clan that has a th10 and up, or if the highest is a th8. That way even if the bottom is a defenseless th9, it's still a th9 and not a th11 with max drags and lightnings

Edit: Just realized someone already suggested this. That's good

Fun fact: that's exactly what we were matched with in the feeder. Defenseless th11 with max drags at the bottom smoked the top 2, and we only had th9 to th7. Everything else was as it should be

Whatever change they made meant that my clan is getting stupid mismatches. In our last war 20v20 they had 11 TH11, with 2 maxed, to us having 4, 1 maxed. So without the other 9 clan members they already had enough attacks to clear all 20. Most of our TH10's haven't even dropped infernos yet.

The real issue is that SC hasn't figured out how to balance two attacks with the defence. If they simply changed to a single attack this would all go away. Right now an engineered defenceless TH11 needs to be weighted almost as much as 2 max TH10's, because that is the number of stars that base will earn, and instead they are being weighted around a TH8.

To keep the two attack system they need to increase offence weights and move to a graduated system rather than a simple addition. By a graduated system I mean that there would be a larger increase for the first maxed troop at a given TH level then decreasing weights for subsequent troops levels (would apply to each TH level). This would account for the fact that once the first army compositions are maxed the increase in attack strength by adding different max troops doesn't have as much effect. This is important to balancing single strategy upgrading.

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Originally Posted by dummyshell

Yes! Agree that both clan should have the same highest TH level.
We just cannot accept when the opponent clan has TH10 troops while our max is TH9. Our top 1 and 2 can be easily 3-star by them. And this is frustrating and make clan war meaningless.

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I agree this! Max level should be same for both, because offensive is much bigger advantage than defence.

We started the 4th war with this new MM and all have been unfair. 1st was unfair for enemy and the rest three wars have been unfair to us. Example enemy has multiple th11 engineer bases and our max level os th10.

The old MM wasn't fair, but it looked like much better. When comes the new update for the MM?

Tikker from adultsfinland

New MM is worst then b4! 2nd war so far and now matched with the 2nd engineered clan!
20 person war:
Us-
#1-2 Max th11
#3-7 Max to mid th10
#8-9 mid and new th9
#10-14 Max- mid th8
#15 Max th7
#16 th6
#17-18 th5
#19-20 th4

Them-
#1 Max th11
#2-7 mid-max th10
#8-9 Max th9
#10 eng th10 Max troops
#11-12 mid th9
#13 Max th8
#14 - 15 th7
#16 th6
#17-20 exactly the same base th10s no Heros Max th10 air troops and spells

This is absolutely disgusting and SC needs to take a good look at this!