Maxer clan matches

I'm of the view that we may learn more about the matchmaking by looking at matches from maxer clans, rather than just at engineered v engineered matches (and purported mismatches), as there are less variables.

We have just spun our first war on the new matchmaker and it's a 15v15 against another maxer clan. We have 9 th11, 5 th10, and added a th9 to make up the 15. We are all bar one big hero bases, the th9 is max, our th10 are all close to max or max, many of the th11 are max. We are on a win streak of 3. We have matched a clan coming off a loss with 12 th11, 2 th10 and a th9. They are also mostly big hero bases, their bottom th11 is pretty new but with a level 2 eagle and level 5 infernos (the rest of the defence seems th10 level), one of the th10 is max, the other is basically a max th9 with one level 1 inferno and a new level 1 xbow, their th9 is max. I can add the hero levels and defence weights later on battle day, if anyone wants see those.

From that it looks not too much has changed for us, as it was previously the case that adding a 9 at the bottom opened us to matching with clans with more big 11s in their lineup than we have in ours.

It would be interesting to hear other maxer clan experiences with the new matchmaker, particularly any instances of maxer clans matching engineered clans.

My clan will soon tomorrow, and I'll add the match if anything strange occurs. It's hard to tell anything from one match but every data point counts.

Also, my clan is less a "maxer" clan and more a "regular Joe" clan. We're friends/family and have bases that tend towards the maxed progression path but never quite truly maxing out. Our 9s generally didn't have 30/30s and full walls when they went to 10, and our 10s weren't 40/40s when they went to 11. We also run two th11s (usually), like 5-6 th10, 5-6 th9s, and 3 th8s. I'm hoping that clans like mine will find improved matches now since our lineup and middle-of-the-road base type is more common (12 big-hero near-max th11s in a 15man war is probably rare-ish), so removing our ability to find engineered matches (which happened more that I was fond of) may help. I'm optimistic, but time will tell...

so in short, your maxer clan pulled a mix of maxed and rushed bases clan?

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Originally Posted by WorthlessTH9

so in short, your maxer clan pulled a mix of maxed and rushed bases clan?

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No, not at all, we pulled a clan of maxers with some new to th level bases who had dropped or started dropping their key defences for their th levels.

Looking over both sides I'm the nearest thing to a rusher there, as at 40/40 and full magma walls I've just pulled the trigger on the th11 upgrade that's building now with a couple of mortars, both bomb towers and some spring traps not yet fully upgraded to th10 level and some troops I don't use not yet upgraded (along with having a th11 and th10 team mate who have the defences but not yet a full set of upgraded walls beyond lavas). I wouldn't call that rushed in any significant way, more like nerfedname's "regular Joes" who aren't missing anything notable and pull the trigger at a late stage of progression whenever they're ready for the next thing.

I thought my post had made it clear the other clan weren't rushers by explaining all their smaller ones had either max defences for their level or max defences for the previous level plus a start on building new key items for their new th levels. We're all maxer style builds, as by "maxer" there I did not mean "person who doggedly won't upgrade until every single last thing is done and lab is dark and builders idle" but rather something more like "person who isn't significantly rushing to any notable degree or refraining from building new defence items early on when those become available".

Here's our first post-update search result. All of our bases are maxers. Us: TH10 4TH9 TH8 4TH7. Them: TH10 5TH9 TH11 TH7 TH8 TH6. The TH11 has lv7 loons and a warden. Our opponents are undefeated in 11 wars (one tie) and are coming off a perfect war.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

their bottom th11 is pretty new but with a level 2 eagle and level 5 infernos (the rest of the defence seems th10 level) ... the other is basically a max th9 with one level 1 inferno and a new level 1 xbow

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those are rushed bases bro -_-

so maxer clans dont only pull maxer clans, but also mixed clans. and that is good to help quicken war search.

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Originally Posted by WorthlessTH9

those are rushed bases bro -_-

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That's not rushed. "Basically a max TH9 with level 1 inferno and new xbow at level" is a maxed base that's just upgraded the TH.

PS - and calling people "bro" can be insulting in some cultures. Especially when she's "sis" if anything.

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Originally Posted by WorthlessTH9

those are rushed bases bro -_-

so maxer clans dont only pull maxer clans, but also mixed clans. and that is good to help quicken war search.

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No it's not rushed, it's new to that th level building off a maxed base at the previous th level. And I'm not "bro".

It's not evidence of anything, just one data point that shows maxers pulling maxers in one match. If there's anything of interest it is in what we didn't pull: we have a single th9 at the bottom and it matched another 9, which is less common for us when we do that than matching a 9.5, probably due to our topheavy clan weight or the number of bottom end 9.5s being run in heavier weight clans. But in isolation one match shows nothing - we need a whole lot of people reporting their matches in accurate detail to learn more.

Our big TH11 hasn't built it's Eagle, other than that we are a mostly maxer clan.
We just lost our 8 win streak by one star.
15 v 15
1 x TH11 v 4 x TH11 (all with Wardens, but only 3 with significant TH11 offence)
Our opponents had 2 Eagles to our Zero.
With the exception of 1, we had traditional Hero advantage and low down advantage (Ahem...here we go).
Truth is we lost because we only managed 1 star on their big 2 TH11s, (including my own TH10 v 11 hit Fail)

We probably should have won this one, and certainly had the chance too, so while it's frustrating to see spam level5 miner dips on TH9s, we move on.😁

here is our current match, not too bad, first time in a while we had the advantage imo.

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...ar-with-new-MM

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Originally Posted by Skrags

Our big TH11 hasn't built it's Eagle, other than that we are a mostly maxer clan.
We just lost our 8 win streak by one star.
15 v 15
1 x TH11 v 4 x TH11 (all with Wardens, but only 3 with significant TH11 offence)
Our opponents had 2 Eagles to our Zero.
With the exception of 1, we had traditional Hero advantage and low down advantage (Ahem...here we go).
Truth is we lost because we only managed 1 star on their big 2 TH11s, (including my own TH10 v 11 hit Fail)

We probably should have won this one, and certainly had the chance too, so while it's frustrating to see spam level5 miner dips on TH9s, we move on.

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My past war was 30v30 and we had 1 TH11 45/45/20 no EA, vs their two TH11 45/45/20 completely max. Everything lower was pretty similar but we had a couple extra TH9s, not like it mattered thought. Lost 87/89

Our spin from the weekend, first under the new MM- was a joke.

We don't run a single .5, defenseless or any other offensive optimized style of base in our war searches. A League clan so every base is either maxed or close to maxed. Did a search with 12/12/6 and paired with 18/6/6. Equally balanced on their end as well, with max offense and defense.

Yes, it was an odd combo to run, but it was a random spin taking whatever mates we could. I don't think that entitles us to pair with a clan that gets 12 extra GW attacks. We essentially traded pairing with the normal engineering clan, for a maxer clan that had the same type of GW advantage...and 6 extra max defense bases. :thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by cnaf

Our spin from the weekend, first under the new MM- was a joke.

We don't run a single .5, defenseless or any other offensive optimized style of base in our war searches. A League clan so every base is either maxed or close to maxed. Did a search with 12/12/6 and paired with 18/6/6. Equally balanced on their end as well, with max offense and defense.

Yes, it was an odd combo to run, but it was a random spin taking whatever mates we could. I don't think that entitles us to pair with a clan that gets 12 extra GW attacks. We essentially traded pairing with the normal engineering clan, for a maxer clan that had the same type of GW advantage...and 6 extra max defense bases. :thumbsdown:

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I'm sure there is a collective breaking of hearts for any who read about that. Unlucky.

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Originally Posted by cnaf

Our spin from the weekend, first under the new MM- was a joke.

We don't run a single .5, defenseless or any other offensive optimized style of base in our war searches. A League clan so every base is either maxed or close to maxed. Did a search with 12/12/6 and paired with 18/6/6. Equally balanced on their end as well, with max offense and defense.

Yes, it was an odd combo to run, but it was a random spin taking whatever mates we could. I don't think that entitles us to pair with a clan that gets 12 extra GW attacks. We essentially traded pairing with the normal engineering clan, for a maxer clan that had the same type of GW advantage...and 6 extra max defense bases. :thumbsdown:

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Thats an awful matchup Cnaf. It shouldn't matter what combo you run when bases are max(ish) and keeping the spread of THs thin. Theres no way 18 TH11s should match with you.

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Originally Posted by cnaf

Did a search with 12/12/6 and paired with 18/6/6. Equally balanced on their end as well, with max offense and defense.

Yes, it was an odd combo to run, but it was a random spin taking whatever mates we could.

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I don't see that as an odd combo. At least not odd enough to justify that bad a match, +/- a th11 sure, but not that bad. Are they less rigidly maxxed than your clan (not implying that makes the match fair, just curious how this could happen).

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

I don't see that as an odd combo. At least not odd enough to justify that bad a match, +/- a th11 sure, but not that bad. Are they less rigidly maxxed than your clan (not implying that makes the match fair, just curious how this could happen).

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Agree, Tank.

Regarding the OP's war, I'm visiting Tomville's clan and can back what she's saying. Not sure how we got paired up.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

I don't see that as an odd combo. At least not odd enough to justify that bad a match, +/- a th11 sure, but not that bad. Are they less rigidly maxxed than your clan (not implying that makes the match fair, just curious how this could happen).

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Not really that much different defense wise. On the offense side- our lowest TH11s have ballpark 40/40/10 heroes, and that's the range their lowest couple of TH11s had.

Where I see any difference at all- is looking at our lowest TH10s vs. their lowest TH10s. Defenses about the same strength, as are troops. However, all our TH10s have 40/40 heroes. Their bottom 3 TH10s were 30/30. 25/30 range. Their top 3 were maxed.


Just noticed something else. Their #13 thru #18 were max bases, BK and AQ all mid 40 or higher...but their GW's were all 15. So our twelve 45/45/20 vs their thirteen 45/45/20.Did the MM then look at our 40/40 TH10s and determine that was close enough for max TH11s with 43/43/15?

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Originally Posted by cnaf

Not really that much different defense wise. On the offense side- our lowest TH11s have ballpark 40/40/10 heroes, and that's the range their lowest couple of TH11s had.

Where I see any difference at all- is looking at our lowest TH10s vs. their lowest TH10s. Defenses about the same strength, as are troops. However, all our TH10s have 40/40 heroes. Their bottom 3 TH10s were 30/30. 25/30 range. Their top 3 were maxed.


Just noticed something else. Their #13 thru #18 were max bases, BK and AQ all mid 40 or higher...but their GW's were all 15. So our twelve 45/45/20 vs their thirteen 45/45/20.Did the MM then look at our 40/40 TH10s and determine that was close enough for max TH11s with 43/43/15?

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I have seen what you not over a good number of prior matches under the past matchmaker - I suspect it does look that way, underweighting what an offence gamechanger a warden with any ability level is for attacking, so behaving as if the 40/40 th10 might possess one.

looks about what I have been complaining about for ages. The MM sucks, even when no engineered bases.

Those look further off then we normally have seen.. but we run anything from like 4/10/16 to 8/18/9s

It is unfortunate that SC has not figured out that , anything short of almost identical amount of 11s becomes frustrating.

It is not just the TH11 disparity, too many people like to focus on that as a single criteria.

To keep the game healthy, the most important community to watch out for is the newer players. A top TH disparity is no less toxic to a clan that wars at the TH6-TH8 level. If there is disparity among the top bases, regardless of their level, it will generally be a poor match. I war at the top mixed clan level and I get annoyed when our opponents have extra eagles and wardens. However, I also run a friends and family clan that gets no less discouraged when their top is a TH8 and they see a TH9 across the aisle or an engineered TH11 buried at the bottom.

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Originally Posted by Prince1999

It is not just the TH11 disparity, too many people like to focus on that as a single criteria.

To keep the game healthy, the most important community to watch out for is the newer players. A top TH disparity is no less toxic to a clan that wars at the TH6-TH8 level. If there is disparity among the top bases, regardless of their level, it will generally be a poor match. I war at the top mixed clan level and I get annoyed when our opponents have extra eagles and wardens. However, I also run a friends and family clan that gets no less discouraged when their top is a TH8 and they see a TH9 across the aisle or an engineered TH11 buried at the bottom.

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its a thread about maxer wars. lol. no1curr about non maxed bases in a thread about maxer bases

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Originally Posted by JFSoul

Agree, Tank.

Regarding the OP's war, I'm visiting Tomville's clan and can back what she's saying. Not sure how we got paired up.

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Well, ♥♥♥♥. 25v25 war. 10 Wardens for us, 19 for them. Defensively they are stronger in the top half (and that is the only half that matters). I guess those 2 enemy th3s and defenseless th8 the enemy has is screwing up the matchmaker. I'll toss you an invite if you want to see the Auto-loss just delivered by the matchmaker.

Our side:
10 th11
6 th10
1 th9.5
6 th9
1 th8.5
1 th8

Them:
12 th11 (1 rushed, the rest mostly max)
1 th10.5
4 th9.11s (th11 with no inferno or eagle. Most have th10 point defenses)
1 th9.5
1 th9
1 8.11 (th11 with th8 defenses)
1 th8.5
1 nearly defenseless th11 (very weak point defenses are up)
1 defenseless th8
2 th3

This is exactly the matchup I thought the MM changes were supposed to prevent??

I find it challenging as a leader who has searched 300+ wars to understand the "old" algorithms let alone the "new" WMM after one spin.

To be honest We have a 66% overall win per cent. So complaining about the 5th is pointless.

We run a maxer mentality clan. I advise on hero upgrades but at the end of the day each Member is entitled to their own clash experience. Meaning if they want to pull the trigger for th10 with 15/15 Max D Legos that's up to each Member.

It's my job to balance the map and We run a 10v10 or 15v15 depending on who's got both heroes at the top of the map. My main is completely maxed th11. Only over the last few months have we included a 10.5 (longtime Member) maxed th10 39/40/10 & 2 9.5s maxed th9 30/30s. The rest is maxers.

We are currently on a 6 win streak...summary
War 1-3 Balanced but favoured Us.
War 4 1st site of engineering favouring them (th11 8th spot max lavaloon) and we won on % 26-26 10v10.
War 5 15v15. We had 3 .5s without the fine details on paper we were clearly disadvantaged. We won 40-39 they kicked #2 and #5 for not attacking. Clash gods as I like to refer to them as.
War 6 15v15 same line up. Oh both wars 5 and 6 we were outnumbered GW 2 - 5 & this war 2 - 6. They missed 4 stars up top only 1 star off me and 2 off #2 and 2 off 4. But they had weaker defence up top and we killed them 42-35 They kicked 3 playes for not attacking but we would have won anyway.

War search tonight and really wondering what is going to show with 6 wins and 2 .5 bases.

Anyway not sure if any of this is useful as We will continue to war and keep the complaints in the clan chat.

I suspect that if a lot of clans worked out their actual win/loss % some complaining might be reduced. I'm more interested in how I can best advise my Members on upgrading and war implications of sever defenseless bases.

Cheers.

Only war #6 was under the new WMM. :)

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

its a thread about maxer wars. lol. no1curr about non maxed bases in a thread about maxer bases

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I don't think the term "maxer" refers to only th11 wars. If that's the case, then even Tomville's clan isn't a "maxer" clan since they weren't all th11s. Neither was cnaf's clan for that matter.

On topic, Prince is right, a mismatch at the top of one TH level is quite demoralizing, especially when it's more than a single base (as in cnaf's case).

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Originally Posted by nerfedname

I don't think the term "maxer" refers to only th11 wars. If that's the case, then even Tomville's clan isn't a "maxer" clan since they weren't all th11s. Neither was cnaf's clan for that matter.

On topic, Prince is right, a mismatch at the top of one TH level is quite demoralizing, especially when it's more than a single base (as in cnaf's case).

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I dont know how one expects SC to balance early game play though.

anything th9 and under at this point is such a transient state, there is not much point in complaining about it.

Did first war search in Folkvangr last night with new mm. We have a bunch of new people and I wanted to put them into war (plus I wanted 20v20), so we're not nearly as balanced as usual. Lineups:

us:
2 th11
1 newish 10.5 but came from max th10
4 nearly max th10's, average heroes are about 38/38 on these guys
1 th 9.75 with 40/40
5 th9 all 66-69k all 20/20 or better
2 th 8.5, 13/13 or so for both
4 th 8, all at least 50k

I was very worried when we started the spin, not just b/c of the 3 .5's but also b/c of such a large spread with a couple max th11's on top.

enemy has:

2 th11's, one with mostly lavas and other with mostly legos
3 th 10.5's, 25/25/10 heroes on average, two with max troops and one without
2 th 10
2 early 9.5's
1 defenseless th10 sitting at #19
1 defenseless th11, but it's also mostly offenseless. they're still working on this one apparently.
8 th9, all with xbows
1 th8 on bottom

Clearly, the mm thought that we were engineered. However, from looking at our opponents I think that it will be a mostly fair match. We have better heroes and a better war record, should be interesting.

We just spun a new war, and I'm appalled... words fail me. I'm not even sure how to describe what I am seeing.

We have in 10 th11, 5 th10 on a win streak of 4. They have 14 th11 and 1 th10 on a win streak of 10. Their builds are all rather odd to me, kinds I've not seen before. 13 of their th11 have eagles. Many have low wizard towers. The bottom enemy th11 is... not really something I can put in coherent words to describe. Here: https://imgur.com/a/fmkkz

I would say this is far and away the worst ever war match we have had.

If it keeps matching that way about all we could do would be drop all our 10s until they become 11s...

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Originally Posted by Tomville

We just spun a new war, and I'm appalled... words fail me. I'm not even sure how to describe what I am seeing.

We have in 10 th11, 5 th10 on a win streak of 4. They have 14 th11 and 1 th10 on a win streak of 10. Their builds are all rather odd to me, kinds I've not seen before. 13 of their th11 have eagles. Many have low wizard towers. The bottom enemy th11 is... not really something I can put in coherent words to describe. Here: https://imgur.com/a/fmkkz

I would say this is far and away the worst ever war match we have had.

If it keeps matching that way about all we could do would be drop all our 10s until they become 11s...

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Sorry man, that sounds like a tough match. That base you showed is a defenseless th11.

Do you normally run 2/3 th11's? I remember billius saying last year that they just started running all th11's in their wars b/c any time they had one or a couple of 10's, they was just cannon fodder for other team.

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Originally Posted by MossackFonseca

Sorry man, that sounds like a tough match. That base you showed is a defenseless th11.

Do you normally run 2/3 th11's? I remember billius saying last year that they just started running all th11's in their wars b/c any time they had one or a couple of 10's, they was just cannon fodder for other team.

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It's defenceless yes, except for one of everything including an inferno and an eagle.

Our wars are usually mainly th11 with some 10s on the bottom. The most 10s is about 5 in a 15. Usually we have less 10s than that - this time we added a usually dormant th10 donation second account to get a 15. That one is bottom of our lineup, a mid th10 with every defence max except missing the last th10 level on wiz towers, archer towers and 1 of its ads.

To add more cherent words, now Onyx saw some of my pics, they have a lot of offence manicured accounts and their th11 on the bottom end of the map opposite most of the 10s are odd (rushed? engineered in a way I'm not familiar with?) bases with big eagles and infernos but low splash, and in one case low splash and low point.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

It's defenceless yes, except for one of everything including an inferno and an eagle.

Our wars are usually mainly th11 with some 10s on the bottom. The most 10s is about 5 in a 15. Usually we have less 10s than that - this time we added a usually dormant th10 donation second account to get a 15. That one is bottom of our lineup, a mid th10 with every defence max except missing the last th10 level on wiz towers, archer towers and 1 of its ads.

To add more cherent words, now Onyx saw some of my pics, they have a lot of offence manicured accounts and their th11 on the bottom end of the map opposite most of the 10s are odd (rushed? engineered in a way I'm not familiar with?) bases with big eagles and infernos but low splash, and in one case low splash and low point.

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Ahh...that was your issue. Bringing a th10 instead of a th3. :rolleyes:

You should test your matches with 10 th11's and 5 th3's. Then you guys can be "test engineers". Though you might die of old age before you get a match. Would be good info to see the results.

And, you could make some octo-dip videos for the crush em roast em thread!

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Originally Posted by Tomville

We just spun a new war, and I'm appalled... words fail me. I'm not even sure how to describe what I am seeing.

We have in 10 th11, 5 th10 on a win streak of 4. They have 14 th11 and 1 th10 on a win streak of 10. Their builds are all rather odd to me, kinds I've not seen before. 13 of their th11 have eagles. Many have low wizard towers. The bottom enemy th11 is... not really something I can put in coherent words to describe. Here: https://imgur.com/a/fmkkz

I would say this is far and away the worst ever war match we have had.

If it keeps matching that way about all we could do would be drop all our 10s until they become 11s...

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looks like they are highly manicured, crazy mismatch, any chance i could come take a look at their clan?

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

looks like they are highly manicured, crazy mismatch, any chance i could come take a look at their clan?

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Sure, I will PM you.

War day and so now have figures. Their 14 th11 and 1 th10 come in at a total of 1535 on gold storage indication of defence weight, while our 10 th11 and 5 th10 come in at 1528. They have an extra 4 warden bases and 31 warden levels on us, along with an extra 3 eagles. Manicured offence and manicured defence (in a rather weird way, eagles and infernos but low wiz towers)... in what world should 4 th11 with a combined 60 warden levels and 2 eagles come in weighing as much as 4 th10s?

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Originally Posted by Tomville

War day and so now have figures. Their 14 th11 and 1 th10 come in at a total of 1535 on gold storage indication of defence weight, while our 10 th11 and 5 th10 come in at 1528. They have an extra 4 warden bases and 31 warden levels on us, along with an extra 3 eagles. Manicured offence and manicured defence (in a rather weird way, eagles and infernos but low wiz towers)... in what world should 4 th11 with a combined 60 warden levels and 2 eagles come in weighing as much as 4 th10s?

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I dont understand the weights. The gold storage of one account should show a value of say 18000, then times 5 thats a total defence weight of 90 000, then 15 bases of that weight should weight 15 * 90 000. I assume you dropped the 000 for expediency and then 15 * 90 for weight total of 1350 for example?

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Originally Posted by Tomville

War day and so now have figures. Their 14 th11 and 1 th10 come in at a total of 1535 on gold storage indication of defence weight, while our 10 th11 and 5 th10 come in at 1528. They have an extra 4 warden bases and 31 warden levels on us, along with an extra 3 eagles. Manicured offence and manicured defence (in a rather weird way, eagles and infernos but low wiz towers)... in what world should 4 th11 with a combined 60 warden levels and 2 eagles come in weighing as much as 4 th10s?

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There defencless th11 would save them around 100000 weight, so thats part of the reason, the lowish and lack of some wizard towers, some xbows, lev 7 mortars or lacking, the lev 1 or lacking bomb towers, those 2 accounts with low level walls etc combined with that 100 000 (which is 7% of total defence weight) saved seams to have helped them get the edge. dont remember the troops perfectly but i think the were pretty selective on a few of the accounts which also helped. Wardens being so light centrainly helped them of course.

For our second war spin we got a non-engineered opponent.
#1: TH10 (40/40) vs. TH10 (40/40)
#2: TH9 (30/30) vs. "TH9.5" (22/26). Their TH9.5 has upgraded the spell factory, clan castle, two cannons, and presumably traps, but lacks any TH10-level troops. Opinions may vary but I consider this opponent's base a new TH10, not engineered.
#3-#6: TH9 vs. TH9. All defenses are maxed, but our heroes are much bigger than theirs.
#7: TH8 vs. TH9. Our TH8 is max, and their TH9 is early (1 xbow).
#8-#10: TH7 vs. TH7.

I think we have the advantage since our bigger heroes at #2-#6 should more than offset their TH9.5 and extra TH9. At least the war will come down to 9v9 attacks instead of 11v9 dips, which will be a welcome change. Attack and base-building skills will matter a lot, and the other clan has some solid base designs and a 13-win streak. We could have a fun and exciting war here.

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Originally Posted by Vikingchief

I dont understand the weights. The gold storage of one account should show a value of say 18000, then times 5 thats a total defence weight of 90 000, then 15 bases of that weight should weight 15 * 90 000. I assume you dropped the 000 for expediency and then 15 * 90 for weight total of 1350 for example?

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Dropped the 000 yes. The full gold weights both sides are:

us - 109 x 10 bases (our th11s), 89, 88, 88, 87, 86 (our th10s)
them - 109, 109, 108, 108, 108, 107, 107, 106, 105, 104, 104, 100, 90, 87, 83. Their 87 is the th10, rest are their th11s.

Apart from their comedy job on the bottom (one of each defence except no bomb tower or archer tower) and the 9.5 at position 13, everyone has the full complement of xbows, infernos and eagles.

This is not a post I expected to make: we won! 33-33 on the narrowest of percentages, only 1.63% in it.

Before anyone suggests this means the match wasn't a bad one, here is why we weren't at all expected to win on paper: big offence advantage to the enemy and also a small defence advantage to the enemy. Them on a streak of 10, a streak length they'd had several times before, us on a streak of 4, which was our best for a long time. The site cocp.it shows we generally manage 34 stars in a 15v15 while they generally manage 38. Outgunned 14th11 to 10, 14 wardens to 10, 13 eagles to 10.

So how did we do it? It was something the matchmaker couldn't account for. Not our stellar attacking because frankly we can be complete duffers sometimes and did no better than usual. Not Martian mind power, or any other planetary force. Here is what it was: https://imgur.com/a/Pydc3

Yes, we owe this to a th10 and 5 th11s failing to come to grips with two variations on a WingedBrew anti-3 th10 design, then getting stuck obsessed by taking down that rather than taking the third star on an easier th10 base design sitting just above it on the map (88k vs 89k gold defence weight). Here is the design, 2 variations on number 1 with a fair amount of tweaking: https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-Valk-Ideas%29. So thanks Brew, big time!

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Originally Posted by Tomville

This is not a post I expected to make: we won! 33-33 on the narrowest of percentages, only 1.63% in it.

Before anyone suggests this means the match wasn't a bad one, here is why we weren't at all expected to win on paper: big offence advantage to the enemy and also a small defence advantage to the enemy. Them on a streak of 10, a streak length they'd had several times before, us on a streak of 4, which was our best for a long time. The site cocp.it shows we generally manage 34 stars in a 15v15 while they generally manage 38. Outgunned 14th11 to 10, 14 wardens to 10, 13 eagles to 10.

So how did we do it? It was something the matchmaker couldn't account for. Not our stellar attacking because frankly we can be complete duffers sometimes and did no better than usual. Not Martian mind power, or any other planetary force. Here is what it was: https://imgur.com/a/Pydc3

Yes, we owe this to a th10 and 5 th11s failing to come to grips with two variations on a WingedBrew anti-3 th10 design, then getting stuck obsessed by taking down that rather than taking the third star on an easier th10 base design sitting just above it on the map (88k vs 89k gold defence weight). Here is the design, 2 variations on number 1 with a fair amount of tweaking: https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...-Valk-Ideas%29. So thanks Brew, big time!

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Great info and a cool storey, must have been an epic closing to the war.

Rosters for post-update war #3 (us vs. them):

#1: TH10 (40/40) vs. TH11 (35/39/15), no eagle, remaining defenses at TH11 level).
#2: TH9 (30/30) vs. TH11 (35/45/13), defenses are TH9 quantity/TH11 quality.
#3: TH9 (30/30) vs. TH11 (8/21/5), defenses are TH9 quantity/TH9-11 quality (e.g. 5 level-9 air defenses).
#4-#5: TH9 (defensively maxed) vs. TH9 (defensively maxed).
#6-#8: TH9 (defensively maxed) vs. TH9 (early to mid).
#9-#10: TH7 (max) vs. TH8 (one with TH7 defense, one defenseless).

There are some factors that might explain this match.
- We have a big hero advantage at #4-#8. Ours are in the 20/20 to 30/30 range, while theirs are mostly 10/10 to 10/15.
- Our TH8 (me) is away at CWSF United so the gap in our TH levels might make us trigger the roster engineer check box
- We have an unusually long win streak (for us). To be precise, we have an unusually long streak of recent opponents snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
- We have an unusual looking lineup. However, when we try more usual lineups we still often face TH11s so I don't know how big a factor this is.

Thanks to Mossack Fonseca for visiting and taking a look at the war matchup! He observed that while the opponents have the advantage, we're not dead yet. If they fail an 11v10 dip and lots of 9v9 attacks (possible due to their weaker TH9 heroes) we might hold them to 27 or 28 stars. If we attack well (by our standards) we might also get to 27 or 28 stars. We will fight on and see what happens.

Well my clan could be considered "maxers" or at least not engineers... And we just had probably our worst match to date (previous match on new matchmaking were fine)

It's 30v
We have Eagles down to 9
Infernos down to 24
Our only "engineered" bases are a few 9.5s but they have baby TH10 offense. No 10.5s, 9.11s, we have as many Wardens as Eagles.

Our opponent has Eagles down to 7
The rest of their bases is more than half TH11 offenses with various degree of defense (the bottom ones weigh around early TH9)
They have 45/45/20s all over the lineup and those that aren't like that have at least max Warden (only a few don't)

I'll post some pictures later


But needed to say, they are VERY good attackers. All our TH11 bases got demolished 70-80+% and they tripled like 3 of them and one fresh ♥♥♥!!!! (We dont run cloud/donut/box bases). They are Chinese btw

I play in a maxer clan. No 9.5:s or any other engineering. Everyone drops the heavy defs ( X-bows, infernos, EA ) immedietly when they upgrade their Th. So we are def heavy and offence comes later. We have had now 3 good matches after the MM update. Even with a line up strethcing from max th11 to two th7:s. Before this always meant an engineered opponent. Now we get normal clans. Maxers like us. So far the MM update is working for us.

Before the matchmaking update our only method to find good matches was to lose. Post update this still seems to be true. We lost war #3 by 0.9% (they had 3 TH11 to our 1 TH10). Since then we've done two more searches:

War #4: Us: 1 TH10 6 TH9 1 TH8 2 TH7 Them: 2 TH10 (one max, one early without infernos), 5 TH9, 2 TH7, 1 TH6. Small advantage to them. Nobody won this war: our #1 disconnected while hitting their #1 (0-star) and they were 0-for-3 on 10v9 dips.

War #5: Us: 2 TH10 4 TH9 1 TH8 3 TH7 Them: 2 TH10 5 TH9 1 TH8 1 TH7 1 TH5. Medium advantage to us since their extra TH9 is brand new and we have moderately bigger heroes.

I would be happy with more matches like this with small-to-medium advantages in either direction. However it would be nice if we didn't have to lose in order to avoid matches where they have multiple TH11s crushing our single TH10.

No no this new matchmaking is garbage

We just spun another war and the result is ridicolous

We have 10 TH11s (all w Eagle), 14 TH10s, 3 TH9.5s, 3 TH9

They have a grand total of 23 TH11 offense bases. Working the way up from the bottom of their war roster it starts with 3 one cannon TH11s (low-ish AQ/BK but max warden and max troops), then TH8.11s, TH9.11s .... They dont have any TH9 in the map. Their TH10s are almost all 9.5s.

We have Eagle and Inferno advantage (especially their infernos stop at place 15 or something lol) but Jesus Christ


We NEVER got matches like this in the previous mm.
And you know I never really complained about the mm.

I give up.

Post-update war #6:
#1: TH10 (40/40) vs. TH11 (33/40/10, all extra defenses dropped except... you guessed it... EA)
#2: TH10 (40/40) vs. TH10 (36/40)
#3-#7: TH9s. We have a hero advantage here (Yay!)
#8: TH8s.
#9-#10: TH7 vs. near max TH8s. (Our TH7 attacks are useless except for scouting)

In about half our wars (both pre- and post-update) our battle plan is to hope that the other clan is really terrible at attacking. Sometimes that plan works, but it doesn't justify a matchmaker that allows wardens to regularly beat up on clans that have no TH11s.

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Originally Posted by SirRobinDD

I give up.

Post-update war #6:
#1: TH10 (40/40) vs. TH11 (33/40/10, all extra defenses dropped except... you guessed it... EA)
#2: TH10 (40/40) vs. TH10 (36/40)
#3-#7: TH9s. We have a hero advantage here (Yay!)
#8: TH8s.
#9-#10: TH7 vs. near max TH8s. (Our TH7 attacks are useless except for scouting)

In about half our wars (both pre- and post-update) our battle plan is to hope that the other clan is really terrible at attacking. Sometimes that plan works, but it doesn't justify a matchmaker that allows wardens to regularly beat up on clans that have no TH11s.

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I'm pretty sure it's the 40/40 th10s doing it, in the sense of they are what this new matchmaker isn't handling well at all. So you get maxer clans facing bigger maxer clans that have both a defence and offence advantage, and a slight hero disadvantage that doesn't in fact impact them. We have it again this war, 13 th11 (2 baby with brand new level 5 warden, level 1 eagle) and 2 th10 vs 14th11 (one young with level 11 warden rest max warden, all with level 2 eagle) and 1 th10. That's not so bad for us as we've so many th11 attacks to cover the bottom end - it's disastrous for many other clans though and that's the real problem with big hero big 10 matching big warden eagle 11s: it's happening irrespective of the existence or amount of bigger th11 pals that can save your clan bacon.

As I said in the update feedback sticky, in reply to someone speculating that maybe hero weights had gone up causing this, I don't think it needs any king/queen weights to have been changed to happen (and think they haven't done that), rather it only needs offence to be counting more than it did (we know it does, they said so), plus that the 10s be big hero 10s and the enemy 11s (not only the 10s mirrors, it can spread further up the line as an average) to have more modest early-mid 30s kings and queens (rather than 40 or bigger), some non-war significant troop upgrades neglected (just a few, not highly manicured), plus the already allowable % difference for a match to come in as in the allowable range to the matchmaker.

For example, one of our matches was our 11 th 11 and 4 th10 matching enemy 14 th11 and 1 th10. The total heros were 633/640/220 vs 564/609/256. The total defence weights by gold were 1550k vs 1594k. On paper that doesn't look so bad or one might even think "well I would like those heros", but in reality it's enemy with 6 extra th11 warden attacks, 3 extra eagle artilleries (2 at level 2), 2 extra sets of max infernos and max xbows.

I think what happens is the gap between the 89k defence weight 40/40 hero th10 and the 30/30/20 105k th11 closes too much when the offence factors more, so where before that th10 might some of the time (say 1 match in 4) face a 100k th11 now it is repeatedly facing 105k or so bigger ones. And since I'd suspect there are more hero in progress th11s out there than big hero big th10s, that is all you need to end up on the "losing" end of that deal repeatedly as a clan with big hero th10s.

About the only way forward I can see is increasing weight on th11 specific items. I wouldn't do that on the defence weight of the eagle, as it then just becomes even more advantageous to not build it. The increase rather would be on the warden's offence weight. And unlike the way weight tends to work on other things, with the biggest gain on first dropping it, I would instead have almost no weight on levels 1-4, then a good chunk at level 5 then pile it on heavy at levels 10-20, with the ability. That would penalise true baby th11 less than just a big weight increase on wardens. But then a warden is so fast to grow to level 5 that maybe it's fine just piling it all on at level 1, after all few of us just expect to do so well in war when brand new to a th level (it's just not a realistic expectation, or shouldn't be).

Tomville: We've faced three enemy wardens in a war multiple times when our top bases were TH9s, so I don't know if 40/40 heroes are the culprit. Our theory is that the matchmaker tremendously undervalues warden attacks.

I think the only way to get balanced wars is to have preset lineups where (a) each clan has the same number of bases at each TH level and (b) new/rushed/engineered bases can choose to participate as a max base at a lower TH level (like tournament rules in Clash Royale). If that doesn't happen, then sanity checks like "If one clan has 3 wardens and the other clan has no TH11s or TH10s, then send both clans back to the matchmaking pool" could help get everyone better wars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirRobinDD

Tomville: We've faced three enemy wardens in a war multiple times when our top bases were TH9s, so I don't know if 40/40 heroes are the culprit. Our theory is that the matchmaker tremendously undervalues warden attacks.

I think the only way to get balanced wars is to have preset lineups where (a) each clan has the same number of bases at each TH level and (b) new/rushed/engineered bases can choose to participate as a max base at a lower TH level (like tournament rules in Clash Royale). If that doesn't happen, then sanity checks like "If one clan has 3 wardens and the other clan has no TH11s or TH10s, then send both clans back to the matchmaking pool" could help get everyone better wars.

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I believe that. Our current war has one warden vs. 7 somehow. Sure, my warden is big, but they've got a 45/45/20 and a 45/32/20 over there as well. Our top bases are all toast already, and we'll have to do some good attacking to get even a tie out of this one.

i agree with anyone that suggests or thinks that wardens are undervalued by the system

if supercell could find a way to make wars only a difference by +/- 1 TH11 no matter where it is on the roster defensively, people would be much happier with the matching

I'd also agree with the above statements about the offensive weight of Wardens still being undervalued.
SirRobin, like you we have big TH10's, and we have consistently seen them pull different forms of TH11's across the roster, but typically these 11's are now fairly big 11's (offence and/or defence) rather than rushed low offence TH11s we often pulled before the matchmaking changes.

Every war post recent MM changes we have faced a TH11 disadvantage. Not overwhelming, but enough to evaluate that we need to be on our game to even have a chance of winning.

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Originally Posted by Skrags

Every war post recent MM changes we have faced a TH11 disadvantage. Not overwhelming, but enough to evaluate that we need to be on our game to even have a chance of winning.

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We now have a standard game plan when the opponents have TH11s facing our TH10s at the top of the war map: Hope the opponents mess up. We've used this plan in half of our recent wars.

In our current war the opponents are 0-for-7 in 9v9 attacks. They still have three TH9 attacks plus two warden attacks (33/40/10) left. Their 11v9 dip will probably succeed, so we're hoping they fail two more 9v9s plus their 11v10.

Hoping the opponents mess up isn't the most satisfying war plan, and it fails if the opponents do something crazy like a non-spam attack. At least it gives us a chance to win sometimes while we wait for the next round of matchmaking improvements.

War search #7 post update. Time for the standard game plan:

#1: TH10 (40/40) vs. TH11 (43/45/13), no eagle, all other defenses (including infernos) maxed, most war troops maxed
#2: TH9 (30/30) vs. TH10 (20/33), all defenses (including infernos) maxed, all war troops maxed
#3-#5: TH9 vs. TH9. Ours have bigger defenses and heroes
#6: TH9 vs. TH8
#7: TH8 vs. TH7
#8-#10: TH7s and TH6s.

Our other TH10 opted out of this war. My theory is that the matchmaker didn't get the message in time.

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Originally Posted by SirRobinDD

War search #7 post update. Time for the standard game plan:

#1: TH10 (40/40) vs. TH11 (43/45/13), no eagle, all other defenses (including infernos) maxed, most war troops maxed
#2: TH9 (30/30) vs. TH10 (20/33), all defenses (including infernos) maxed, all war troops maxed
#3-#5: TH9 vs. TH9. Ours have bigger defenses and heroes
#6: TH9 vs. TH8
#7: TH8 vs. TH7
#8-#10: TH7s and TH6s.

Our other TH10 opted out of this war. My theory is that the matchmaker didn't get the message in time.

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Could well be, I'm opted out now, need a break from that.

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Originally Posted by SirRobinDD

War search #7 post update. Time for the standard game plan:

#1: TH10 (40/40) vs. TH11 (43/45/13), no eagle, all other defenses (including infernos) maxed, most war troops maxed
#2: TH9 (30/30) vs. TH10 (20/33), all defenses (including infernos) maxed, all war troops maxed
#3-#5: TH9 vs. TH9. Ours have bigger defenses and heroes
#6: TH9 vs. TH8
#7: TH8 vs. TH7
#8-#10: TH7s and TH6s.

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Their first three attacks:
#6 (TH8) vs. #8 (TH7). ZQ+rage+mass dragons. 3-star.
#5 (TH9) vs. #7 (TH8). Bowler walk + valkyries. 3-star (barely).
#2 (TH10 20/33) vs. #4 (TH9). GoVaHo. 92% 2-star FAIL.

Now we just need an 11v10 fail and five 9v9 fails. Go plan!

Sigh... My clan currently up agst engineers 10v10..
My clan has 2x th10.. 1 with max heroes n max defense the other is 9.75.. 7x th9s an 1x th8.. We are faced with 3x th10.5 .. 2 with wardens + ability and maxed infernos.. Their top th10.5 has max defenses xcept eagle.. 5x th9.25 with mixture of max troops here n there.. 2x th9...

Now tell me SC how could tat be in spirit of fair play?

Engineers clan tag #88LLPRLV
Mine #9YL9UYGG

Probably SC wants us to join the engineering band wagon since ntg been done to address it.

I'd say ENGINEER ON rather than CLASH ON... RIP fair matching...

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Originally Posted by zappie

Sigh... My clan currently up agst engineers 10v10..
My clan has 2x th10.. 1 with max heroes n max defense the other is 9.75.. 7x th9s an 1x th8.. We are faced with 3x th10.5 .. 2 with wardens + ability and maxed infernos.. Their top th10.5 has max defenses xcept eagle.. 5x th9.25 with mixture of max troops here n there.. 2x th9...

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This is interesting, and gets me speculating - not enough evidence yet to be sure but it seems heavier maxer style clans (lots of th11 and10) are getting more matches to nonengineered heavier maxer clans with more th11s, whereas maxer style clans that are lighter in total clan weight (include more 9s, some 8s) seem to instead get more matches to engineered clans. I'm thinking the new matchmaker is hitting maxer clans badly two ways, rather than one (still the matches to engineers from before, plus the new "omg how many big 11s bristling with eagles??" matches).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tomville

This is interesting, and gets me speculating - not enough evidence yet to be sure but it seems heavier maxer style clans (lots of th11 and10) are getting more matches to nonengineered heavier maxer clans with more th11s, whereas maxer style clans that are lighter in total clan weight (include more 9s, some 8s) seem to instead get more matches to engineered clans. I'm thinking the new matchmaker is hitting maxer clans badly two ways, rather than one.

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I would agree with this, based on what I've seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tomville

This is interesting, and gets me speculating - not enough evidence yet to be sure but it seems heavier maxer style clans (lots of th11 and10) are getting more matches to nonengineered heavier maxer clans with more th11s, whereas maxer style clans that are lighter in total clan weight (include more 9s, some 8s) seem to instead get more matches to engineered clans. I'm thinking the new matchmaker is hitting maxer clans badly two ways, rather than one (still the matches to engineers from before, plus the new "omg how many big 11s bristling with eagles??" matches).

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Noticing this as well. Seems like we need to either engineer if we fall under the "lighter" clan weight, or push to maxing to TH11 as soon as possible. Can't figure this MM out, which might be the point. However it doesn't seem like it's significantly impacting the advantage lopsided bases have enjoyed for the last year and a half.

The other odd thing of note, again very speculative for lack of data, is rather a lot of people saying they match harder looking enemies than before but end up winning - due to the enemy losing by not attacking, attacking very poorly etc. I have no idea what that might mean, or if it's purely a statistic oddity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tomville

This is interesting, and gets me speculating - not enough evidence yet to be sure but it seems heavier maxer style clans (lots of th11 and10) are getting more matches to nonengineered heavier maxer clans with more th11s, whereas maxer style clans that are lighter in total clan weight (include more 9s, some 8s) seem to instead get more matches to engineered clans. I'm thinking the new matchmaker is hitting maxer clans badly two ways, rather than one (still the matches to engineers from before, plus the new "omg how many big 11s bristling with eagles??" matches).

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We lost... Tie at 28 stars but lost to %... Yeah they had lousy attacks.. Couldnt even take out 1 of my TH9s.. Probably thats why they resorted to such play.. Oh well the upside is.. I'm proud of my clans attacks.. 1 of my max th9 managed to 2 star a TH11 with max infernos n xbows..

Life goes on... Hv fun..

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Originally Posted by Tomville

This is interesting, and gets me speculating - not enough evidence yet to be sure but it seems heavier maxer style clans (lots of th11 and10) are getting more matches to nonengineered heavier maxer clans with more th11s, whereas maxer style clans that are lighter in total clan weight (include more 9s, some 8s) seem to instead get more matches to engineered clans. I'm thinking the new matchmaker is hitting maxer clans badly two ways, rather than one (still the matches to engineers from before, plus the new "omg how many big 11s bristling with eagles??" matches).

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have not noticed this. can you give some example bd ?

running like (4-8) 11s, 8-16 10s, 9s fill 30 or 40v have been good for me clans... i felt like this was where they fixed it somehow.

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Originally Posted by Skrags

Our big TH11 hasn't built it's Eagle, other than that we are a mostly maxer clan.
We just lost our 8 win streak by one star.
15 v 15
1 x TH11 v 4 x TH11 (all with Wardens, but only 3 with significant TH11 offence)
Our opponents had 2 Eagles to our Zero.
With the exception of 1, we had traditional Hero advantage and low down advantage (Ahem...here we go).
Truth is we lost because we only managed 1 star on their big 2 TH11s, (including my own TH10 v 11 hit Fail)

We probably should have won this one, and certainly had the chance too, so while it's frustrating to see spam level5 miner dips on TH9s, we move on.😁

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We run a very similar build. Our top 11 hasnt built EA and although we may have hero advantage they almost always have defensive advantage or more 11s...or both. We only lose wars if we get perfected and if they dont we usually miss 1 star and win by percentage. Recently we went from perfecting quite often to missing 1 or more stars on the regular and we get perfected with little to no trouble with their top guy almost always being max hero/troop 11 with EA, but not necessarily any other upgrades.

Before update our 1 was heavier than their 1 in 80% of our matches. Since update our 1 is SIGNIFICANTLY lighter than their 1 in 80% of our matchups.

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Originally Posted by SirRobinDD

Now we just need an 11v10 fail and five 9v9 fails. Go plan!

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They failed their 11v10 and all their 9v9 attacks giving us the win despite their extra TH11 (43/45/13). For the next war we're running what I thought was a balanced lineup:

4 TH9 3 TH8 3 TH7.

Our post-update war #8 opponent has:

1 TH9.5 (30/30 max camps/CC/valks/spells) 3 TH9 2 TH8.5 4 TH7.

They have a 9-win streak (ours is 4) and their last three victories were all perfect. At least this opponent doesn't have a warden.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tomville

This is interesting, and gets me speculating - not enough evidence yet to be sure but it seems heavier maxer style clans (lots of th11 and10) are getting more matches to nonengineered heavier maxer clans with more th11s, whereas maxer style clans that are lighter in total clan weight (include more 9s, some 8s) seem to instead get more matches to engineered clans. I'm thinking the new matchmaker is hitting maxer clans badly two ways, rather than one (still the matches to engineers from before, plus the new "omg how many big 11s bristling with eagles??" matches).

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The same goes for engineered clans as well. As soon as we bring 2 maxed th10s we get th11s as enemy #1. Happened twice already. We didn't match any maxer clans yet, we match either rusher on engineered clans and we either have overwhelming advantage, or overwhelming disadvantage. Didn't have a single fair war since the new MM went live. I am pretty sure that this has to do with the way the totals are incorporated with the per lane matching. If your total offense and total defense match, then the matchmaker will tolerate larger per lane mismatches. If they sum the errors as: (per_lane + total_offense + total_defense) / 3, then that would allow huge mismatches as long as the totals are similar enough.

So you can match in the following ways:
1. maxer vs rusher/engineered mismatch 1
- similar per lane weights (this is offense + defense together, not separately)
- similar defensive weights
- large error on offensive weights
(in case of engineered enemy the engineered clan will get the advantage, in case of rusher enemy the maxer clan will get the advantage)

2. maxer vs rusher/engineered mismatch 2
- similar per lane weights (this is offense + defense together, not separately)
- similar offensive weights
- large error on defensive weights
(in case of engineered enemy the maxer clan gets the advantage, in case of rushed enemy the rusher clan gets the advantage)

3. maxer vs maxer mismatch
- large error on per lane weights (this is offense + defense together, not separately)
- similar offensive weights
- similar defensive weights
(one of the clans will randomly be at a huge disadvantage)

4. good match
- small-medium error on all weights
(no large disadvantage for either clan, fair war)

Now, if you are full with high weight th10/th11 bases, then the engineered/rushed clans can't get to your per lane weights, therefore you are not likely to match them at all.

If your war is th10/th9 or below, you enter the territory where you can get engineered/rushed enemies as well.

We just spun 5/14/9s 40v .. matched 6/14/9s

Ymmv.. but this is almost ideal

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Originally Posted by dorsan

The same goes for engineered clans as well. As soon as we bring 2 maxed th10s we get th11s as enemy #1. Happened twice already. We didn't match any maxer clans yet, we match either rusher on engineered clans and we either have overwhelming advantage, or overwhelming disadvantage. Didn't have a single fair war since the new MM went live. I am pretty sure that this has to do with the way the totals are incorporated with the per lane matching. If your total offense and total defense match, then the matchmaker will tolerate larger per lane mismatches. If they sum the errors as: (per_lane + total_offense + total_defense) / 3, then that would allow huge mismatches as long as the totals are similar enough.

So you can match in the following ways:
1. maxer vs rusher/engineered mismatch 1
- similar per lane weights (this is offense + defense together, not separately)
- similar defensive weights
- large error on offensive weights
(in case of engineered enemy the engineered clan will get the advantage, in case of rusher enemy the maxer clan will get the advantage)

2. maxer vs rusher/engineered mismatch 2
- similar per lane weights (this is offense + defense together, not separately)
- similar offensive weights
- large error on defensive weights
(in case of engineered enemy the maxer clan gets the advantage, in case of rushed enemy the rusher clan gets the advantage)

3. maxer vs maxer mismatch
- large error on per lane weights (this is offense + defense together, not separately)
- similar offensive weights
- similar defensive weights
(one of the clans will randomly be at a huge disadvantage)

4. good match
- small-medium error on all weights
(no large disadvantage for either clan, fair war)

Now, if you are full with high weight th10/th11 bases, then the engineered/rushed clans can't get to your per lane weights, therefore you are not likely to match them at all.

If your war is th10/th9 or below, you enter the territory where you can get engineered/rushed enemies as well.

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That makes a great deal of sense as an analysis of what seems to be going on for a lot of people. To me the problem seems to come in the "similar offensive weights" as it seems that now, under this new matchmaker, the distinction between a th10 offence/defence and a th11 offence/defence has collapsed or narrowed. I see that more with matches like cnaf reported, rather than being so well shown in mine, for cnaf having rather more 10s than 11s - I'm not a mathematical person, so bear with me: is it maybe that with counting offence more now that the key thing that used to differentiate a big 10 from a mid 11 (the eagle) now counts less so they get less differentiated... or is it the larger error on per lane weights you mention?

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Originally Posted by Tomville

The other odd thing of note, again very speculative for lack of data, is rather a lot of people saying they match harder looking enemies than before but end up winning - due to the enemy losing by not attacking, attacking very poorly etc. I have no idea what that might mean, or if it's purely a statistic oddity.

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I have some numbers for 9v9 3-star rates by our opponents both before and after the update:

Last 8 wars before update: 2-for-39

Last 8 wars after update: 2-for-43

We've seen a lot of scary looking matchups that turned out to be close when the opponents couldn't attack. However, this was true before the update as well. Our opponents' 10v9 3-star rate is around 50% both before and after the update (to count as a TH10 offense the attacker needs to have at least one max TH10 war troop). Note that our base designs are solid but nothing special; in the CWSF war I brought over a TH9 and issued some friendly challenges and the forum players had no problem 3-starring our designs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tomville

This is interesting, and gets me speculating - not enough evidence yet to be sure but it seems heavier maxer style clans (lots of th11 and10) are getting more matches to nonengineered heavier maxer clans with more th11s, whereas maxer style clans that are lighter in total clan weight (include more 9s, some 8s) seem to instead get more matches to engineered clans. I'm thinking the new matchmaker is hitting maxer clans badly two ways, rather than one (still the matches to engineers from before, plus the new "omg how many big 11s bristling with eagles??" matches).

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i'm speculating that a lot of these "maxer" clans have two or three .5s or funky bases still in their line-up somewhere and it's causing them to match weird.

for us we are on our 9th war under new matchmaker, 8 of which we have only been down at most, 1 th11 but we bring 3-4 th11 with eagles and 5-9 th10s with infernos to every war, no .5s.

our matchup log goes completely against what other clans are complaining about in regards to their 10s matching 11s but it's hard to think it's just a lucky break for us considering it's happened 8 out of 9 times so far. our only mismatch was when we included a .5 and let search go over 30 minutes

We have a theory about why we get lots of matchups against scary looking clans that can't attack. We know that recent war record plays a role in matchmaking, and looking at opponents' war logs suggests that the role is a large one.

The skilled engineers have way better war records than we do, so we don't match them.

The unskilled maxers have worse war records than we do, so we don't match them.

Clans with similar war records to ours (more wins than losses) are either skilled maxers or unskilled engineers. We conjecture that there are a lot more unskilled engineers out there than skilled maxers, so most of the time we match scary looking engineered clans that can't attack. On the rare occasions that we match a maxer clan, the rosters tend to be pretty fair and the opponents tend to be very skilled.

We've designed our bases to try to stop spam gowiva, spam lalo, and spam dragons. We figure that skilled clans will beat us anyway. Fortunately most of our opponents attack us with spam gowiva, spam lalo, or spam dragons. This explains the 5% 9v9 and 50% 10v9 hit rates against our bases. When we run into skilled maxers who use BoLaLo, HoBo, or Witch Slap, their hit rates are more like 40% 9v9 and 90% 10v9. Note that many of these skilled maxers don't have high-level heroes, or those rates would be even higher.

I think the matchmaker looks at Win, loss & performance? We have been eating our words lately!....But out attacking and winning!

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Originally Posted by AFrostyBlaze

...for us we are on our 9th war under new matchmaker, 8 of which we have only been down at most, 1 th11 but we bring 3-4 th11 with eagles and 5-9 th10s with infernos to every war, no .5s. ...

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What is the hero level for your TH11s and TH10s?

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Originally Posted by iBork

What is the hero level for your TH11s and TH10s?

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th11s all have 40/40 or higher with various warden levels, two of ours are max and 10s all have over 30/30 except a couple are 25-29 king.

edit: i made a post with our recent match log on here it should be floating around either the first or 2nd page

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Originally Posted by AFrostyBlaze

i'm speculating that a lot of these "maxer" clans have two or three .5s or funky bases still in their line-up somewhere and it's causing them to match weird.

for us we are on our 9th war under new matchmaker, 8 of which we have only been down at most, 1 th11 but we bring 3-4 th11 with eagles and 5-9 th10s with infernos to every war, no .5s.

our matchup log goes completely against what other clans are complaining about in regards to their 10s matching 11s but it's hard to think it's just a lucky break for us considering it's happened 8 out of 9 times so far. our only mismatch was when we included a .5 and let search go over 30 minutes

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFrostyBlaze

th11s all have 40/40 or higher with various warden levels, two of ours are max and 10s all have over 30/30 except a couple are 25-29 king.

edit: i made a post with our recent match log on here it should be floating around either the first or 2nd page

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There's your answer as to why your TH10's aren't pulling in more TH11's. Neither of your TH11's nor TH10's have maxed heroes.

iBork can I visit you clan? .... Want to see how it is done!

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Originally Posted by iBork

There's your answer as to why your TH10's aren't pulling in more TH11's. Neither of your TH11's nor TH10's have maxed heroes.

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huh? we have 2 11s with max heroes, a third with max AQ and another nearly max AQ. pretty darn close to all max...and we do have a th10 with 40/40 and a couple max AQ besides that one but still leveling king.

edit: plus i didn't realize we were talking specifically max hero th10s matching 11s, i thought we were talking max d and semi close to max hero matching th11s. i don't see why people that are max hero 10s would even be complaining at that point they might as well just go th11?

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Originally Posted by AFrostyBlaze

huh? we have 2 11s with max heroes, a third with max AQ and another nearly max AQ. pretty darn close to all max...and we do have a th10 with 40/40 and a couple max AQ besides that one but still leveling king.

edit: plus i didn't realize we were talking specifically max hero th10s matching 11s, i thought we were talking max d and semi close to max hero matching th11s. i don't see why people that are max hero 10s would even be complaining at that point they might as well just go th11?

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Not we weren't (or at least I as OP wasn't) talking so much max hero as big hero was the idea originally. Mine just happened to be a th10 with 40/40 at the time (and still heros that size, though now I am a new th11) but others were reporting mid-upper 30s heros pulling mid th11 with level 2 eagle, upgraded infernos (and maybe mid-late 20s heros) - which is significantly different from the kinds of 11s you'd sometimes match under the last version of the matchmaker, which tended to have less by way of eagle and inferno levels in particular.

As you'd know it's not that uncommon for hardcore farmer maxers (or maxer at heart but slightly itchy fingered when it comes to every last lab item) who start th10 with big heros to get their heros near 40/40 before being ready for 11 defence-completion-wise, as its only 10 levels to add after that long th9 grind.

You are right that some posters to the thread might be misidentifying their clan type. What I originally intended was a thread looking at matches where there was absolutely no .5, "strategic building" or significant rushing that might factor as what affected a match process. That's because I thought it could be revealing in understanding what changed to be looking at specifically those matches that involved substantial size bases with full complements of upgraded xbows, infernos, eagles and not only appropriate size for level but big for level heros, where we can rule out attempts at any kind of matchmaker gaming and rushing as additional factors to understand.

We lost recently. Two baby TH8s rejoined our war lineup. All our TH10s and some of our TH9s are sitting out.

Our lineup is now 4 TH9 (max), 3 TH8 (1 max, 2 baby), 3 TH7 (2 max, 1 baby). Our baby bases have all defenses dropped (except one TH8 is missing a mortar). Our first opponent with this roster wasn't too promising (TH9.5 (30/30), 3 TH9, 2 TH8.5) but we have had a clear advantage in our last two wars:

War #9 opponent: 5 TH9 (4 max, 1 mid), 4 TH8 (1 max, 3 early), 1 TH6. #1 had 30/30. Our heroes were bigger at #2-#4.

War #10 opponent: 4 TH9 (max), 2 TH8.5, 2 TH7, 2 TH6. Our heroes are significantly bigger at #1-#4.

The opponents have an easier time (in theory) clearing our 8s with their 8.5s/early 9s, but as long as our 8s clear their 8s and 8.5s we have an easier time with 9v9 attacks due to bigger heroes. The enemy TH9s have mostly mid-teen to early 20s heroes, so they certainly have enough firepower to clear our TH9s if they attack with sufficient skill.

The war #9 opponent had two 9v8 fails against our baby TH8s. The queen sacrifice opener did not work so well for GoWiPe. The 80-second CC lure (loon/panic/hound), hounds failing to burst against lv5 air defenses and lv8 archer towers, and queen going down to a CC loon's death damage caused the lalo to run out of time.

We are a mixed 9.11 and .5s clan. Im making an .xls with wars rosters. One of those wars which appears on the doc was an only regular bases war, no engineers. It was the most balanced war by far. Our .5s have too low defs. I'm starting to think 9.5 does not deserve the time.

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Originally Posted by CiroII

I'm starting to think 9.5 does not deserve the time.

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I've been wondering what the role of 9.5s is in clans that have lots of TH11 attacks to spare.

If your TH9s can clear the enemy TH9s, what's left for the 9.5s? Assuming CWL hit rates, a 9.5 has a relatively small chance of tripling an enemy TH10. A 9.5 can barely double an enemy TH11 about half the time, but that has limited value if all the enemy TH11s will be hit by your TH11s anyway.

Is there some advantage of 9.5s that I'm missing in wars featuring an abundance of TH11 attacks? It seems that 9.5s are more of an advantage in (a) lower TH-level wars where two extra TH10 attacks make a bigger difference and (b) in casual clans where TH9s can't clear the enemy TH9s.

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Originally Posted by SirRobinDD

I've been wondering what the role of 9.5s is in clans that have lots of TH11 attacks to spare.

If your TH9s can clear the enemy TH9s, what's left for the 9.5s? Assuming CWL hit rates, a 9.5 has a relatively small chance of tripling an enemy TH10. A 9.5 can barely double an enemy TH11 about half the time, but that has limited value if all the enemy TH11s will be hit by your TH11s anyway.

Is there some advantage of 9.5s that I'm missing in wars featuring an abundance of TH11 attacks? It seems that 9.5s are more of an advantage in (a) lower TH-level wars where two extra TH10 attacks make a bigger difference and (b) in casual clans where TH9s can't clear the enemy TH9s.

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In a war with an abundance of th11 attacks they are "hello easy stars for a th10, may not need an 11 for that job"... freeing up your 11s, so a positive disadvantage (especially if it's not as far along as upgraded all defences to th10 only missing infernos). The only useful role they could play for the enemy who has them is their lower weight might mean a match to a clan with more 10s rather than 11s or some 9s in the lineup.

I might be a cynic, but to me the only reason to be a 9.5 in a clan with an abundance of 10s and 11s is in order to sit lower on the war lineup so have it go under the radar - or be less commented upon - when you help yourself to easier targets than your clan mates with same size offence under the rationale they are nearer your place on the map - or are maybe thought somehow better at attacking when you hit the targets opposite your higher up top weight 10 with the same offence. "Mirror thinking" is in many of us, even those in clans that don't have a practice of attacking mirrors. But that could be totally cynical, there may be hardly any engineers who do that just to help themselves to the easy route at the possible expense of their own clan mates. But personally I'd have a long hard look at any clan mate - engineered or not - with same offence (or better) who consistently helped themselves to the easy 2 star jobs irrespective of whether it mightn't be best for the clan to save those for the less skilled attackers who can still manage that but not a harder one, or the 3 star attempts from the top guns.

Tom what bd do you run

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

Tom what bd do you run

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I'm not sure what you mean by "bd"? If it's clan breakdown of th levels then that's varied.

At the time of starting the thread it was usually a 15v15 with 10-12 th11 and 3-5 th10 - all of those 10s being big, all except one having max heros; the th11 at least 8 maxed.

Since then with 10s matching 11s we've been more reluctant to add 2 of the th10s we used to (they're second accounts anyway) plus natural progression has taken 2 other th10s to new 11s (103k). Last war was a 10v10, we had 1 of the th 10, 9 th11 including one of the new young ones, they had 10 th11. Their smallest th11 was 107k, everything from 9 up for them max defences, most max heros. We lost on percentage.

Ok thanks. Yes bd=break down of th. If you run 15v with 12 th11 then the bottom 3 are going to be outlier.

I don't see how you can ever have an unfair match that way ?

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Originally Posted by Tomville

I'm not sure what you mean by "bd"? If it's clan breakdown of th levels then that's varied.

At the time of starting the thread it was usually a 15v15 with 10-12 th11 and 3-5 th10 - all of those 10s being big, all except one having max heros; the th11 at least 8 maxed.

Since then with 10s matching 11s we've been more reluctant to add 2 of the th10s we used to (they're second accounts anyway) plus natural progression has taken 2 other th10s to new 11s (103k). Last war was a 10v10, we had 1 of the th 10, 9 th11 including one of the new young ones, they had 10 th11. Their smallest th11 was 107k, everything from 9 up for them max defences, most max heros. We lost on percentage.

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Wow interesting. I was always under the impression to get fair wars u should use maxed/balanced bases wit tight th spread. Yet yall experiencing disadvantages? Sad to hear actually. May I come n check ur wars if possible? If not no worries

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

Ok thanks. Yes bd=break down of th. If you run 15v with 12 th11 then the bottom 3 are going to be outlier.

I don't see how you can ever have an unfair match that way ?

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I guess I'd distinguish unfair from both unwinnable and from unsatisfying, though for some a war is all three at the same time.

For us it's more of the unsatisfying variety and the enemy has the advantage where 10s sit opposite big 11s, and easier attacking to execute. Wars where 10s always have to attack the 11s might be a feature of CWL life, but they're not particularly welcome in your regular or casual clan where people have a sense that a good match is one where everyone has a target that is the right size for them much of the time, with the occasional bigger or smaller one to break that up (not all bigger ones).

"Outliers" seems a term more relevant to a clan putting truly low bases at the bottom, rather than one putting up what is a pretty tight spread really. And it doesn't really help the th10 in question saying "omg a big 11 yet again, I'm beginning to dislike war" to be told "ah well that's because you are an outlier" - to me a small th9 or below added in that lineup would be a true outlier who should expect to see some nasty stuff.

Whether or not we agree on "outlier" there, there's been a definite change in this new matchmaking to the frequency of both th10 finding themselves opposite th11, and to those th11 being considerably larger on defence strength than the ones the 10s used see before.

I'd call it unfair if it were a great number of lanes in which that happened, or it happened where there was fewer or no th11 on the home team, as it certainly is in some other clans. At some point the differential gets too far apart in how well your clan needs to execute attacks and work together, and how well the enemy need to do for the same result.

Given the rates at which th10/11 3 stars happen, it would be odd to call any war with an equivalent number of 10s and 11s collectively "unwinnable"... but then few wars truly are that, to the point I doubt it a meaningful category for evaluating wars at mostly th10/11 level.

If you run 12 max(ish) 11s , it doesn't matter if you have 3 90k 10s or 3 th3.. by outlier I mean data that the algorithm disregards due it being inconsequential to finding the match based on the other 12 bases.

The bottom 3 bases in that scenario being imbalanced is less impactful then 1 extra th1 at the top.

For example we have 5/11/9s and the other team has 4/11/9s

The 1 th11 here makes a huge difference

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

If you run 12 max(ish) 11s , it doesn't matter if you have 3 90k 10s or 3 th3.. by outlier I mean data that the algorithm disregards due it being inconsequential to finding the match based on the other 12 bases.

The bottom 3 bases in that scenario being imbalanced is less impactful then 1 extra th1 at the top.

For example we have 5/11/9s and the other team has 4/11/9s

The 1 th11 here makes a huge difference

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I think we'd agree that any time a 10 faces a big 11 such that one side has more th11 attacks than the other then it's impactful, just because a th11 has an easier time of 3 starring a 10 than of a 3 star 10 on 10 or 11 on 11. In that way a perfectly good highly developed 10 can start to see themselves as a liability - needing to constantly attempt (and of course sometimes fail) a hit up on a hard target, while giving up their own stars more easily. And that's just less fun as a game war experience, to see yourself as letting the team down two ways despite having built a perfectly good big strong base.

It starts to look better to be a rushed 11 than a solid big 10, and for some it would be better to do so under this matchmaker (you won't be able to any attack better for a good while, but can drop an eagle on day 1 to at least become immediately harder for them to knock off the third star). After all, if you're already facing 107k th11 most times, the prospect of getting 109k instead isn't a deal breaker - it would only be a bad move if you still often enough got another th10 or smaller 11 mirror.

To me the real issue with this new matchmaking is the increased frequency of clans with big 10s match big 11s, such that it's become the norm to expect there's a good chance of level 2 eagle and upgrades to infernos across the map. That wouldn't be so much of an issue if half the time one looked across to find something smaller, but that's not what seems to be happening for many.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

I think we'd agree that any time a 10 faces a big 11 such that one side has more th11 attacks than the other then it's impactful, just because a th11 has an easier time of 3 starring a 10 than of a 3 star 10 on 10 or 11 on 11. In that way a perfectly good highly developed 10 can start to see themselves as a liability - needing to constantly attempt (and of course sometimes fail) a hit up on a hard target, while giving up their own stars more easily. And that's just less fun as a game war experience, to see yourself as letting the team down two ways despite having built a perfectly good big strong base.

It starts to look better to be a rushed 11 than a solid big 10, and for some it would be better to do so under this matchmaker (you won't be able to any attack better for a good while, but can drop an eagle on day 1 to at least become immediately harder for them to knock off the third star). After all, if you're already facing 107k th11 most times, the prospect of getting 109k instead isn't a deal breaker - it would only be a bad move if you still often enough got another th10 or smaller 11 mirror.

To me the real issue with this new matchmaking is the increased frequency of clans with big 10s match big 11s, such that it's become the norm to expect there's a good chance of level 2 eagle and upgrades to infernos across the map. That wouldn't be so much of an issue if half the time one looked across to find something smaller, but that's not what seems to be happening for many.

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Excellent post (especially the above highlighted portion) . That hits the nail on the head perfectly, at least from my perspective and within my clan. We have some TH10s that view themselves as a liability and are frustrated. Definitely less fun for them. We plan to add some TH9.11s and 10.5s to our line up now to help out, but I'm disappointed we--in our opinion--have to take this route.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

I think we'd agree that any time a 10 faces a big 11 such that one side has more th11 attacks than the other then it's impactful, just because a th11 has an easier time of 3 starring a 10 than of a 3 star 10 on 10 or 11 on 11. In that way a perfectly good highly developed 10 can start to see themselves as a liability - needing to constantly attempt (and of course sometimes fail) a hit up on a hard target, while giving up their own stars more easily. And that's just less fun as a game war experience, to see yourself as letting the team down two ways despite having built a perfectly good big strong base.

It starts to look better to be a rushed 11 than a solid big 10, and for some it would be better to do so under this matchmaker (you won't be able to any attack better for a good while, but can drop an eagle on day 1 to at least become immediately harder for them to knock off the third star). After all, if you're already facing 107k th11 most times, the prospect of getting 109k instead isn't a deal breaker - it would only be a bad move if you still often enough got another th10 or smaller 11 mirror.

To me the real issue with this new matchmaking is the increased frequency of clans with big 10s match big 11s, such that it's become the norm to expect there's a good chance of level 2 eagle and upgrades to infernos across the map. That wouldn't be so much of an issue if half the time one looked across to find something smaller, but that's not what seems to be happening for many.

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No, we would not agree. if you have 12/15 max 11s you can cover the map.

the 10s scout, bfd. you are not at a disadvantage there.

But the larger point remains, 80% of the roster is perfectly matched, and the poor match is the bottom 20%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZgc2PsbOMs <-- good video here.

10s were matching 11s before the change, I am not seeing a difference there.

Maybe you can clarify "big clans" ?


our matches have had a distinct change since the recent update, with 1 glaring exception.

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Originally Posted by JFSoul

Excellent post (especially the above highlighted portion) . That hits the nail on the head perfectly, at least from my perspective and within my clan. We have some TH10s that view themselves as a liability and are frustrated. Definitely less fun for them. We plan to add some TH9.11s and 10.5s to our line up now to help out, but I'm disappointed we--in our opinion--have to take this route.

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Need to make sure they are staying current with regards to the meta. more 10v10s now then ever.

10v11 has taken a hit though

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

10s were matching 11s before the change, I am not seeing a difference there.

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Agreed. However, in what I'm seeing/experiencing- most times those 10s were matching with defensively weak TH11s. In other words, facing engineered/lopsided clans.

SC rolls out a MM update that more likely will pair engineered with engineered. Now those 40/40 maxed to near maxed TH10s are seeing TH11s that not only have the offense on their side (as in pre update)- but the defensive weight as well. And that's where I have the gripe. Consistent post update pairings in the ballpark of 4/6/9s matching with 7/4/9s...and everyone of those 11s sporting EA and ITs.

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

No, we would not agree. if you have 12/15 max 11s you can cover the map.

the 10s scout, bfd. you are not at a disadvantage there.

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Fair enough I guess to see it that way, and in fact we have been winning more since the change, just facing matches that are worse on paper. None of what I wrote this thread was meant to suggest I think there's a huge disadvantage here for my clan, just that it's notable as a factor that's changed on the new matchmaker that's certainly capable of being a considerable disadvantage on some lineups, and a factor that makes big th10 a rough place to war right now. Cnaf, for one forum example, has more 10s than 11s in the clan lineup and sees the same kind of matching for them - there it's a much harder row to hoe than my clan faces. Frankly I'm concerned far more for other clans than my own in this.

On paper, yes certainly the whole map is covered, nobody would dispute that. Two things though, that will matter to different extents in different clans. Firstly, that's a harder war for the th10s in terms of attacking larger stronger ones than one mostly used to do, and hitting up more often for more people CWL style, or going from a meaningful 2 starring attack to a perhaps unsuccessful scout... every time, that's it for your war experience. It also can be a stretch for the 11s, which matters particularly in casual and friends clans, where you pick a war lineup based on who wants to join in together on the fun plus maybe whoever only put up their hand to help you get that 15th or whatever number... your 11s may not be all reliable on the strong 2 stars on fellow 11s and some of them themselves needing to be covered by others. So such a match stretches a clan further, that's what I meant by it being an impact.

Any one time one side of the map needs to try harder than the other is just regular Clash life if you are warring, but any time the matching has it so you're nearly always on that side that needs stretch more than the other for the same result, there's an issue.

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Originally Posted by cnaf

Agreed. However, in what I'm seeing/experiencing- most times those 10s were matching with defensively weak TH11s. In other words, facing engineered/lopsided clans.

SC rolls out a MM update that more likely will pair engineered with engineered. Now those 40/40 maxed to near maxed TH10s are seeing TH11s that not only have the offense on their side (as in pre update)- but the defensive weight as well. And that's where I have the gripe. Consistent post update pairings in the ballpark of 4/6/9s matching with 7/4/9s...and everyone of those 11s sporting EA and ITs.

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I would agree with the above for the most part, with a slight adjustment to the part bolded.
Some of this is evident from my Heroes v Wardens thread :-
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...es-v-Wardens-!

I would amend the bolded part to "matching with defensively weak TH11s, or offensively rushed".

Post MM changes, we are pulling more high powered bases, where I'm genuinely worried about my own base getting 3 starred.

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Originally Posted by Skrags

I would agree with the above for the most part, with a slight adjustment to the part bolded.
Some of this is evident from my Heroes v Wardens thread :-
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...es-v-Wardens-!

I would amend the bolded part to "matching with defensively weak TH11s, or offensively rushed".

Post MM changes, we are pulling more high powered bases, where I'm genuinely worried about my own base getting 3 starred.

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This is exactly the issue at stake for me, which cnaf and skrags both put the finger on so clearly. It's a complete change in what you'd see across the map from before, happening in more lanes than before, and happening with greater frequency than before. Let's hope the matchmaking tweaks SC indicated were now possible more often address this in particular as a priority, as in some clans it's causing real mismatches, where in others it's more in the league of a dissatisfaction but nonetheless real and something that gives the impression of a less fair match - exactly what they said they hoped to address.

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Originally Posted by cnaf

Agreed. However, in what I'm seeing/experiencing- most times those 10s were matching with defensively weak TH11s. In other words, facing engineered/lopsided clans.

SC rolls out a MM update that more likely will pair engineered with engineered. Now those 40/40 maxed to near maxed TH10s are seeing TH11s that not only have the offense on their side (as in pre update)- but the defensive weight as well. And that's where I have the gripe. Consistent post update pairings in the ballpark of 4/6/9s matching with 7/4/9s...and everyone of those 11s sporting EA and ITs.

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Dont agree. All 11s were defensively weak. They just buffed th11 defense, for the 2nd time. th10 offense against th11 has not been buffed, except maybe drags. ( noone hitting 10v11 w/ miners )


I am curious about your example there, we havent seen that. ( 4/6/9s matching 7/4/9s )

I think we have had all matches ( except the 1 ) within 1 TH11 and 2 TH10s. 30v or 40v. Pretty good if you ask me, but it feels suspect as I am the only one reporting it is "better" as if we got some type of exemption...

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Originally Posted by Tomville

Fair enough I guess to see it that way, and in fact we have been winning more since the change, just facing matches that are worse on paper. None of what I wrote this thread was meant to suggest I think there's a huge disadvantage here for my clan, just that it's notable as a factor that's changed on the new matchmaker that's certainly capable of being a considerable disadvantage on some lineups, and a factor that makes big th10 a rough place to war right now. Cnaf, for one forum example, has more 10s than 11s in the clan lineup and sees the same kind of matching for them - there it's a much harder row to hoe than my clan faces.

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That is what is puzzling to me. we run anything from 4-9 TH11s, 8-16 TH10s, 9 fill in 2 clans, 30v or 40v.

all matches have been pretty close against like clans ( cwl clans ) except 1.

Now, 1 clan is in 2 leagues so there might only be 1 spin per week. But we spun a silly roster, i think 8/7/9s and matched someone running ( 7/8/9s ) advantage us, but pretty close considering what that would have pulled us pre-adjustment. preadjustment we expected to see 12-14 TH11 on the other side, then 16 garbage bases below it.

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

That is what is puzzling to me. we run anything from 4-9 TH11s, 8-16 TH10s, 9 fill in 2 clans, 30v or 40v.

all matches have been pretty close against like clans ( cwl clans ) except 1.

Now, 1 clan is in 2 leagues so there might only be 1 spin per week. But we spun a silly roster, i think 8/7/9s and matched someone running ( 7/8/9s ) advantage us, but pretty close considering what that would have pulled us pre-adjustment. preadjustment we expected to see 12-14 TH11 on the other side, then 16 garbage bases below it.

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I don't know your clan composition so I couldn't really say - what we are talking about seems to factor most in clans with big heros. If what I hypothesise is true about the gap closed between th10 and th11 in the eyes of the present matchmaker with the increased emphasis on offence, it's still possible a bigger lineup with more 9s might help get better matches by pulling the overall clan weight down. That may be so because an increased emphasis on offence may not close the gap in the same way between 9 and 10, particularly if you start including more bases with more modest sized heros in the lineup. I'd be interested to hear from 30/30 th9s in maxer style clans with a couple such bases in the lineup, in terms of whether what they tend to see now across the map differs from what they previously saw.

Here is some data from our most recent 10v10 war. Win streak 1, enemy 3. Our total destruction is usually between 85-90% with a 75% win rate.

https://imgur.com/a/R3hVL

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Originally Posted by Tomville

it's still possible a bigger lineup with more 9s might help get better matches by pulling the overall clan weight down

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Maybe, but prior we would see , usually once a week or once every 2 weeks, a clan with TH11-TH7/6 .

So if we spun 6/14/20, we would match 12/8/6/6/trash. Meaning we had to clear 20 garbage bases, and double the amount of th11 w/ eagles. ( issue i had was the 20 garbage bases )

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Originally Posted by Tomville

That may be so because an increased emphasis on offence may not close the gap in the same way between 9 and 10, particularly if you start including more bases with more modest sized heros in the lineup. I'd be interested to hear from 30/30 th9s in maxer style clans with a couple such bases in the lineup, in terms of whether what they tend to see now across the map differs from what they previously saw.

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Idk what you mean "modest" sized heros.

we usually have 16-20 TH9s in, over half are 70k. rest are usually 69. mabye 1 or 2 68 on bottom.

I feel like there is a flag that checks if you have a CWL style roster then fixes you up a nice match. unlikely though.

possibly it checks for "engineered" bases? if you have NONE you get rewarded somehow?

The 1 match that was stupid still bothering me, as i see no path to understanding how that could have occurred.

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

I am curious about your example there, we havent seen that. ( 4/6/9s matching 7/4/9s )

I think we have had all matches ( except the 1 ) within 1 TH11 and 2 TH10s. 30v or 40v. Pretty good if you ask me, but it feels suspect as I am the only one reporting it is "better" as if we got some type of exemption...

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We've done 6 random spins since the update. Always some some combo of 11/10/9. In those 6 spins- we are seeing anywhere from 2 to 5 more TH11s on the opposite side than we bring. And not soft TH11s either. I'm talking maxed to near maxed 11s, with lvl 20 GWs in tow. Oh, we might see the lowest TH11 with say a level 10 GW...but the rest will be up there at 20. I just think its a joke when every time out we are on the opposite side of 4-10 GW attacks. Actually- as I type this, I recall match #3 after the update. In that war, we happened to bring a lot of TH11s (8), and guess what? The match gave us the advantage, the opposing clan had 5. War was never in doubt. Goes to what my gripe is. Whether we get the advantage, or the opponent- I'm just not seeing matches where the 45/45/20 is within +1. Would be nice to see that.

When we do these random spins, we've been running smaller numbers due to mates out all over the family participating in multiple CWL leagues. So 15v, 20v war sizes. In a 15v war, 2 extra max TH11s is notable. 3, 4? An absolute joke. I realize different clan makeups are going to see different results in pairings, depending on their makeup and progressions. Perhaps its better in the 30v, 40v range. Making no apologies for seeking lower number wars- league play trumps these random junk spins.