Classic. Please no arguments against your point of view? OK, no discussion, just disagreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Classic. Please no arguments against your point of view? OK, no discussion, just disagreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Your very welcome, we'll deserved. I get what your saying about adapting. I just get the feeling the problem wouldn't be so bad if all those who disagree with engineering didn't adapt. I could be wrong but I'd bet the majority of engineered clans are those who just caved to the pressure. Now we have a situation were so many adapted SC has to walk on eggshells so they don't honk off alot of players. All this adapting shall only make a fix harder to find. Perhaps I'm wrong and most Angus love the game this way, complaints from engis tell me otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFSoul
For many that choice was made two years ago. Seems to me the right choice, if the alternative was years of bitterness about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark11308
Doesn't describe me so much though, I've never had a moral reaction to the question. Won't be outraged if SC changes it either, was pretty happy with the October lopsidedness nerf.
The most common argument is that no one rushes their 1st account which isn't true and don't want to discuss that however any other discussion or disagreements with a why is appreciated. And next time please try to read the whole post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Most rush to about th7-8. Once there, they realize how important their troop levels really are. I've seen a lot stopping at 8 to "fix" their rushed accounts. Yes, alot of players rush their first account but then they soon realize they messed up because they lack the knowledge on how to fix it. Which goes back to how Tank described it; They want you to feel as if you're backed into a corner and the only way out is to gem.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Edit: Just like to add, The knowledge they lack/lacked Sin provided. As adamant as he was, he still contributed to the community.
I've always gotten a chuckle out of the fact that if you want to keep your base "balanced" while you build it, you must engineer. All buildings takes approximately 2 years while all lab takes 3. So either you're defensively heavy for nearly all that time or you have to manage your builders so they don't get too far ahead of your lab.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Maxers do this by idling them at TH7 and later while they wait for the lab.
Engineers do it by delaying the heaviest defenses. Why idle them before the end? Just skip Xbows, Infernos, EAGLE (can include Mortars/Bomb Towers/Wiz Towers here too). If for whatever reason your offense starts counting heavier than your defense (as measured by recommended target versus your weight), then build something off the "heavy" list.
Your base ends up looking a lot like a TH9.11, but with only TH10 offense. After this, you'll have only the really heavy defenses left (Infernos/EAGLE) and nearly all of TH11 lab to go. You can coast through that last year with easy troop upgrades as you don't have to farm for anything except the lab.
Basically, anyone who thinks idling their builders is a bad plan either is (a) defense heavy (upgrade before max lab) or (b) engineering (structured defenses to keep weight lower) because the game takes more time to max offense than it does to max defense.
I'm talking about strategic rushing. However the main point was is maxing good for the overall health of the game? This being that it takes so long for a casual player to progress to the next th vs a more strategic rushed style of play which has defenses however would still be classified as lopsided.Quote:
Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx
It's almost as if the consensus about THE WAY THE GAME IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED might be off target. Crazy talk?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sservis
I would say real maxing is so rare that it has almost no effect on the game. Mabey in a different situation maxing could be seen as bad. How the game is now it's a non issue imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Devils advocate: name a game where u get penalized for tryin to build it to games optimal lvs? It should take long if u dont wanna pay for it no? If it wasnt game would b too easy n make people lose interest quickly no? Imagine a game filled with mostly manipulated accts? O god imagine how boring that would b. If game is too easy it wouldn't garner as much popularity no? At same time u gotta admit it isnt overly hard. Arent the best things in life things that u work for? Things where it was possessed thru effort? Things that r simply handed to u wont garner as much respect or appreciation than things where u earned thru work n effort no?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
So rare? If you look at the form it would appear that many clans are max clans. However I see your point based on what I see in the game. Yet people make so many statements about how engineering/lopsided is bad for the overall health of the game I can't help but see how the opposite could be just as bad for the health of the game also, just in a different way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark11308
You ask a good question, and it's one that has been touched upon off and on over the last year. I'm not sure it is good for the overall health of the game, but in my opinion it's better than having a lopsided approach for several reasons (and ALL of these are subjective and my personal opinion):Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
1. Follows traditional tower defense / strategy RPG games. I'm in my 40s, and grew up playing Age of Empires, WoW, and other RPG / tower defense games in which you had a somewhat structured path for progression. It was great unlocking achievements, abilities, troops, defenses, etc. as a reward for either putting time and effort into it, or opening up your wallet. I didn't like it when some games allowed everyone to a max level too quickly. I saw max level players and viewed it as something to work toward as a long-term goal. I also looked at is as a way to distinguish between players who have put resources into the game (time and / or money) vs. those who picked it up last week. It's not just bragging rights--it felt right to me.
2. Easier for a casual player to understand. I didn't want to dictate to any clanmates (when I was a leader) how to progress, but it got absurd to have to figure out what hurts you and doesn't hurt you in war. The upgrade path for war optimization as an individual and as a clan does should be natural and compliment multiplayer progression, not be diametrically opposed. The thought process behind a lopsided account is "I want to game and rig the matchmaking system quite noticeably in an effort to help my clan pull opponents who have little chance of effectively fighting back." I don't think that mentality is healthy for the game and clan wars overall.
3. Reward the progression path that requires time / effort and / or gems. If you have to reward one or the other, it makes more sense to me to reward the one that takes more time and effort (or money).
The above is very subjective, and there are many valid counter arguments to it.
Overall, I'd love to have a MM that crafts ways to provide fair and equitable matchups to ALL clans, regardless of their clan composition, TH levels, offense/defense progression, maxer/rusher, etc., etc. I want a system where EVERY clan, even one full of premmie bases, can perform a war search and have some reasonable expectation of getting a match where, if their attacking skill is good enough, they have a mathematical chance of winning.
Clan wars are one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game, and I think allowing the entire war system to transition to one of "everyone needs engineered bases strategically sprinkled throughout their clan" (which is the direction war is going currently) is HORRIBLE for the long term health of the game and player interest. New players won't stick around for that,
As nerfedname said: "In my opinion, it is in supercell's longterm interest to reign in heavily engineered accounts to prevent war from becoming an exercise in spreadsheet operation rather than who attacks and DEFENDS the best...This is a tower defense strategy game. The premise of the game is to attack and DEFEND. So it's anathema to me that the matchmaker doesn't reward progression on BOTH sides of the ledger (i.e., offense AND defense) and instead punishes defense while grossly rewarding offense."
I think that leans more toward a maxer path than a lopsided path of progression. Although I really want a system that doesn't penalize any progression path. Just trying to answer your question directly.
The game with strategic rushing is still a very long game you just get to the upper levels faster. While I have never played wow I believe the game did make some adjustments for new players to progress faster at the lower levels. I may be wrong on this but I think I remember reading something like that. However strategic rushing does that here, you get to the higher levels faster. Also you said optimal level. Last I checked optimal doesn't mean maxed.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
I know you have made an engineered account and we agree it really isn't any more difficult than a maxed account. So work would be the same just the time is different.
Taking advantage in game and tax is totally different.Quote:
Originally Posted by deathbringer666
For tax, you are betraying the system from earning revenues.
For game: LopSided bases will be the highest spending gemmers.
Now, how you equalize Tax Loophole with MMA loophole?
Who govt listens to? The citizen or highest paying corporates?
Exploiting loopholes to avoid tax is punishable crime.
But, I have watched a person gem his th9 mid-state to, Th11 having Maxed bowlers. Imagine how much money he spent there? You are allowed to gem your heroes to available at war. Tell me if its illegal? You have anything to say against these PTW (Pay To Win) rich fellows? Would SC do anything against them?
You are always allowed to upgrade townhalls to next level when you have enough resources. You are allowed to buy millions of resources without playing. You are allowed to boost resources too. Which are legal and which are illegal to you?
I agree. I also see that many times maxers float back and forth between what is or isn't engineered. What I am describing is keeping builders busy at all times but not necessarily maxing each TH. I am also of the opinion under the current MM that a base with just one war army and while having all defenses but at different levels is balanced and optimized while not lopsided (however many maxers still claim this is engineered). One could progress this way to what ever th level they desire and still be an asset to the team. Once there they could max to where they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFSoul
As nerfedname said what I'm talking about isn't heavily engineered and does work at offense and defense. It is just used to progress to the higher levels faster. As I said in a previous post I believe wow did that also.
While many say extreme engineering isn't good for the overall health of the game I believe that extreme maxing isn't either. As you said leaning toward one say maxing doesn't eliminate the other just the extreme versions of both.
Long is subjective term n rushing is defo the fastest n cheapest way to reach higher lvs faster no doubt. With that said, still doesnt answer question what game penalizes u for wanting to max? (isnt that pt of most games? What developer will make a game where it is a detriment to u if u do? People will either just stop playing or sit at their current position which results in no money nor progression) I cant speak of wow or other games much bc I never grew up a gamer. I can only speak of my limited exp of games I been playing lately (well actually only clash Lol) n isnt most if not all games intent to b maxed? So yes that is optimal. Its optimal to games original intent. If not no goal to work towards to no? As far as how one chooses to play the game is different story tho. That's what makes this game so fun bc of its versatility but still doesnt take away fact "to max shouldnt hurt u. It should only help, if not people wont play as much bc no end goal in sight." Hypothetically speaking, what reason should one go above th3?4?5?6? Etc. how does one fully experience all the toys each specific th gives if u decide to not make it bc it wont manipulate the system as well?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
N yes I built engineer acct for experiment purposes. Its defo way easier than maxing ur acct. By easier I mean it takes way less time to achieve its optimal state but once again, y should that b? That would hurt the game overall n in its longevity if that is the case. Do u really think most players wanna play a game where most accts r all engineer accts? Wheres the full challenge? Isnt challenge one of the things that makes anything in life interesting or worth trying to achieve?
Actually, no. Breaking the law to avoid tax is punishable, but a loophole is by definition not illegal. Maybe a translation issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by zenideas
Usually loopholes are either accidental or added on purpose to favor some specific group of people.
None of that is illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenideas
With my main account maxed, just a few more research to go and waiting on 2 cannons to finish upgrading. I no longer play my defenseless except in war sometimes. I have been working on a strategic rushed account. Currently at th9 with barch and lavaloon the plans, I've paused on heroes (15,15) at the moment to focus on defense as I see the are too light when I am at war. All point and splash will soon be at a th6 level except for hidden which is maxed. The plan is also to put down the bomb tower and xbows but at level 1 before moving to th10. It actually does a decent job defending at war as it gets under estimated often. Engineered? Sure I have planned this one out. Lopsided? Yes for now but having 5 builders will quickly change that. Optimized? Yes, with a max army and decent defenses Maxed? Very possible once I reach th11. All builders busy? Always.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
This is a strategy that simple and effective to do with lots of upside and little downside. It doesn't really fit into the heavily lopsided or maxed strategy and is a very optimal way to play. The best of both worlds I think.
Ty for listing ur acct details? Still didnt answer my questions tho. JsQuote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
So to answer your questions since my point was that extreme maxing is just as bad for the game as extreme engineering mostly cause of the time issue to the end game. As you and I have mentioned the only real difference was the time not the game play. When you say engineered do you mean defenseless? Many maxers change definition so often depending on the post. So no a game with mostly defenseless accounts would be no fun. A game where defenses are at various degrees of upgrade working at maxed at the top th level would be fun. How one upgrades toward max at the top th level is however up to the person playing the game. The challenge is how to keep everything inline and balanced as one progresses toward max. My account I described is just what I described above. I noticed something off defenses too far behind and made adjustments vs the game telling me I have to max each th level before moving up.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
Does the advantage defenseless bases have in war need to go away? My question is do they have an advantage? Sure over those that choose to max each th level, but the upgrade path I described above appears to negate the advantage without the need for SC to step in. I simply adjusted my style of play/strategy to fit the goal I was wanting to achieve. It adds another level of complexity to the strategy only applies to attack skill and base design. Which would add to the challenge which is as you described one of the things that makes life interesting.
This is very well said. Perfectly describes how I feel as well. All we want is a mm that doesn't punish any playstyle. I just find it hard to agree that the current mm is rewarding a certain playstyle while most, if not all of us agree, that it only does so because the flaws that it has. Had these flaws been addressed already, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because no one would have an advantage right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFSoul
I have absolutely nothing against people wanting to engineer or max. But you're telling me that one has to be favored over the other, even though it only favors one side because of the flaws? That makes zero sense. This is where clan wars is headed. Every clan, in order to compete, has to have some engineered bases in it. True skill will slowly be cast aside and completely overshadowed by which clan has more high powered attacks.
If by engineering you mean defenseless I disagree. While I do see others points about the advantages the current MM brings I always look at it as a battle of styles. I am a big fitness fan and follow the crossfit games. They are described as a battle of modalities where each fitness style/strategy is going against one another and may the best style win. Under the current MM engineers(defenseless) have the advantage over the maxer. However I still believe the optimized strategy has an advantage over the engineer. This optimization while progress toward a max th11 to me has always made sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBlaze
One of the advantages I have had in CW is the ability to think and plan my upgrades with purpose, not just move to max, upgrade, move to max, upgrade. This ability to understand how things work has allowed me to have an advantage in life I really can't see why this game should be different.
Freedom to upgrade townhalls was SC's plan with the game. Not an accidentally discovered thing. Its their war weight system that favored Offence over Defenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
A counter quesntion to you is: Did you realize the person I highlighted about gemming suddenly from Th9 to Maxed bowlers did 3 stars on th10 on the immediate war. Is it illegal or unethical? Whatever it is to gamers. Its quite legal for SC as they've earned hundreds of bucks on this purchase of gems.
Aaa ok ty for answering question. We just have diff perspectives obviously. To u it may be challenging to take on manipulated bases. To me its a joke to face em. To each is own. The problem isn't the players. Its the algorithm.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
O my idea of engineer bases r any bases manipulated
Sure going against defenseless bases are a joke but that wasn't what I was describing and since you went back to the whole its the algorithm issue I will assume you have nothing more to add.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
Any base that is moving toward maxed is manipulated. So unless you are willing to spend tons of gems only permamaxed are fully maxed.
U dont have to b a rocket scientist to know difference bw balanced bases n manipulated bases whether maxed or not. It's easy to decipher bw the two simply by lookin at it. D-less or not still way easier to take down than a balanced/max base of same th no?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
And what I'm saying is that I don't have any issues with any particular route you want to take. If you feel base optimizing is the way to go, then go for it. My question is why not have you face clans that are like minded? It's when your decision to optimize starts giving me consequences because I chose s diff route is when I take issue with itQuote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
If the same th with a maxed war army for that th yes you are correct bases that are not maxed are easier to take down. As I said any base progressing to max at their th is a manipulated base and as you said would be a joke to take down. This is why the often suggested maxer idea of matching th won't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
Many want to MM to match maxers with maxers and engineers with engineers and rushed with rushed. I really don't like that idea, not because it takes away advantages but it takes away the complex challenge of creating a superior style of play. In boxing there are many different styles and it mostly becomes a rock, paper, scissors as to which is best. Each on has and advantage over one but a disadvantage to the other. The truly great boxers are able to overcome the disadvantage and defeat everyone. In the lighter weight classes boxers often fight up in weight that puts them at a disadvantage and the great ones win. When they lose do they blame the weight advantage? Nope they accept it and move on.
Life isn't fair and that is great news because it allows those who pay attention to get an advantage over 95% who just sleepwalk through life. Why should this game be any different?
In boxing there is a rock, paper, scissors way strategy works. Each style has an advantage over one and a disadvantage over the other. I don't want to only face one style. To be one of the best you have to be able to beat all styles.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBlaze
U r overgeneralizing word manipulated. Theres a difference bw ug in balanced way vs war optimize ug. As far as paying attention goes, yes I agree but y does paying attention only apply to manipulating ur bases to gain advantage in war? Y cant paying attention b practicing n tryin to perfect war style attacks of equal or higher th lvs? Y does paying attention have to b solely manipulating war mm to gain favorable matches instead of being able to outskill ur opponents offense/defense? Which replays get more admiration in terms of popularity? The replays of same th taking on same weight opponents/ higher or replays of higher th (in terms of offensive power)taking out lower ths?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Well, I've read your entire post, and I'm just not following the rock paper scissors to boxing comparison. I do finally agree with you on one point though. To be the best you have to beat the best at their level. To curb stomp a lower level is just not amusing to me, but to each his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
To counter argue ur best comment. That comment is a bit out there no offense. Name me one engineer clan who can compete with a top war clan? In matter of fact, how many engineer clans r popular compared to clans who war in balanced manner? Y is that so? Hmmmm gm is only known bc of their war streak. Nothing else. In matter of fact, I personally never heard of them until I came here n saw their posts. I didnt know any "famous" engineer clans till I came here but defo heard of popular war clans in game. Y? Another question, which popular utubers have engineer wars as their content? Wonder what type of wars r usually featured tho. Question applies to sc also. What type of wars do they promote? Did they even mention any engineer clans? Lol in conclusion, yea wanting to b the best comment really doesnt apply here does it? Maybe best in engineer world perhapsQuote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Then you must have a problem with the current game balance at TH10 and TH11. In CWL, the best strategy for the game as it is balanced right now (with maxer-ish bases) is TH11vTH10 and TH10vTH11. Only the spare TH10 attacks get to attack at their own level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sservis
I'm not trying to put words into the member's post that you responded to, but what I think the intent of the comment was the advantage engineers get by getting extra high level attacks. Once battle day starts, it doesn't matter how you use those attacks, since that is pat of clan war strategy. What many have an issue with is the strategy a clan uses prior to battle day starting, to get an advantage.
I will go into more detail on the rock paper sissors when i have more time. As to the curb stomp because i tend to stay toward the middle in weight of a th and my offense is similar to defense i avoid most lopsided bases and match more in my own th. Sc did say the more lopsided you are the more likely you are to face lopsided bases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
So in reality i tend to match how many maxers want without the interference SC.
But in a true system engineering would never beat maxing (especially because it wouldn't exist for the most part). Engineers would consistently be scissors getting smashed by rocks. The only reason engineering even works is because it takes advantage of the match making system. It's like a machine doing weigh ins. All it can see is the weight number. It does not actually look to see if the boxer has both feet on the scale or just one. The only thing engineers could potentially be the best at is engineering, and the Martians have set an extremely high bar.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
CWL is scissor vs scissor. There is no paper or rocks. Wars are balanced and each side used the same strategy but the side with the sharpest scissors wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sservis
Minor clarification and a point directed at the general anti-engineer sentiment (not you, but you prompted me to think of it).Quote:
Originally Posted by JFSoul
I think the discussion isn't about prior to battle day. It's about prior to prep day.
That said, every serious clan has requirements about who they'll put in their spin. The logical conclusion of eliminating engineering's impact on the prior to prep day conversation (with an amazing matchmaker that's perfect!) would be to completely eliminate the need for any sort of requirements about who is put into a spin.
Certain things like Heros up for battle day (if needed), good attackers and base designs would persist, but the requirements for 20/20 at TH9 would be moot. 10/10 wouldn't hurt you if the matchmaker were the idealized perfection.
This is the point that a lot of anti-engineers miss. If the matchmaker is perfect, there is no point to clan account requirements as it pertains to battle day.
Note that some clan requirements work as a filter for seriousness or dedication (minimum donations, minimum heros even) and those requirements are often a proxy for factors that matter. However, the actual items that are the proxy aren't important. (so 10/10 is just as good as 20/20 with the same player for a clan, although the types of players with 20/20 are different than the types of players with 10/10, so have to be careful of selection effects)
On a th weight basis yes engineers would lose to maxers however the colser one get to maxed the increased chance of getting matched with the th above. And if the th above has the advantage. When to upgrade to avoid this adds to the complexity of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperStorm103
That is one of the reasons i dont the mm is far off. Not perfect but not bad either.
To go back to boxing and the weigh in the maxer is fighting at their true weight while the engineer cuts weight for the weigh in and is heavier come fight day (common practice in fighting sports)
Yes you are right about cwl it is only one style.
3 main styles of boxing. Outside, brawler, inside
Outside beats brawler, brawler beats inside, inside beats outside.
Insightful comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sservis
If there was no strategy to war participation, the game would lose something.
There was a similar element to the point system used by my previous favorite game. Because the point system was flawed, min/maxers could enjoy hours of fun poring over unit specifications to come up with a combination that maximized power per point. For example a high speed, high defense, low firepower unit was not very useful by itself, but as a spotter in company with other units that had heavy firepower it was very powerful. The pre-battle planning was all about creating synergy.
I guess my clan is just not so serious. We are pretty casual and just like to have fun. Our biggest decision is whether to war with 10s at top or 9s at top before spin. If we go with 10s and they have more, so be it. Same at 9. Why is it so wrong to want to be able to war against another clan using same tools?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sservis
Not really, that would be like the engineer taking off his defenses and then putting them back on for fight day. I think my description of weigh in was more accurate though I need to improve on my previous "weigh in" scenario that hinted at cheating. So....Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
The only reason engineering even works is because it takes advantage of the match making system. It's like a machine conducting weigh ins and assigning boxers to a weight bracket. All it can see is the weight number. It does not actually look to see if the boxer is wearing gravity reducing shoes when he is on the scale. So it places him in the featherweight division though he actually should be competing in the heavy weight division. The boxer didn't break any rules as both feet were on the scale, but he knew the machine would not detect him wearing his special shoes. Then come fight day, one boxer is twice as big as the other, the crowd can see that it's a mis match, but nobody can do anything about it except notify the weigh in machine creators that their machine appears to be broken. After the match the "half the size fighter" goes to the boxing organizers and cries foul! He receives some support for his situation, but then other "gravity reducing shoe wearers" say that it wasn't a mis match and he had a chance to win, and that it's his own fault for not wearing gravity reducing shoes at weigh in.
I understand what you are saying however this isnt a competition on who's analogy is better. I can go into more detail on mine later.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperStorm103
Hiwever look at the two ideas. One takes responsibility to figure out how to maximize results, the other blames something else. In life who typically gets further ahead the one who figures out how to do it or the one who blames?
What you are saying is correct, tax 'avoidance' is not illegal in most countries, tax 'evasion' is. I can place my money in legal accounts and give it away, legally, to avoid paying taxes. If I simply refuse to pay a tax demand, or under declare my income to reduce tax demands I am breaking the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
All slightly off topic, so to bring it in line, engineering is currently in the avoidance bracket. Not breaking any rules at present. Although many countries, particularly the UK and USA are getting tough on companies who avoid tax. What they do may well be legal, but is not deemed ethical. Maybe engineering too fits in that bracket, I dont know.
I'm not trying to win the analogy contest with you, I was just noting that to me your version didn't quite line up with the situation, not to say it doesn't make sense to somebody else. Then added the version that makes sense to me. It could also not line up with the situation at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
I agree that there are applications where the person who finds the best way to go about doing something in head to head competition deserves to get father ahead, but clan wars is not one of those applications, to me. Mostly because the moderator is a machine that is blind to certain "issues". If this was real life, most likely there would be a human or group of humans moderating the event exercising common sense.
The problem with boxing or any other 1 v 1, is clan wars is not 1 v 1. Successful engineered clans don't have all dless, or generally all engineered, as that is not optimal. It is finding the right combination of bases. Engineering leads to mis matches, as 1 team is optimizing the other is not.
There is no taking advantage of, loop holing or any other derivative of manipulation of the match making. It is making the best informed upgrades to be best positioned for a random match. The match maker is the same for both sides.
A valid point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
It seemed to me though that the discussion was on a single player engineering. Not on clan wide engineering. And, from a single player point of view, optimizing your "weigh in gear" knowing the weaknesses/limits of a system put in place to generate sensible matches would be called what then?
Maybe just simple oversight by the weigh in machine creators.
I will agree that engineers have indeed positioned themselves very well with current mm. Fingers (and toes) crossed that changes soon or at least soonish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripple1972
Here is the thing that bothers me most. Maxers are perfectly fine with the idea of being seperated from engineers. They do not care if engineers fight each other. Maxers simply wish to fight similar bases. Engineers want to keep maxers in their war pool to maintain their advantage. An actual max base has a small advantage over other bases at it's level. Engineered bases enjoy a huge advantage over lower levels at the moment.
While i agree that most engineers do want to keep maxers in the mm pool i for one want to pool to be as large as possible. Then comes the where is the dividing line between maxer and engineer? Most of my accounts have all defenses at various levels to make a midlevel th. I look more rushed than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
A final reason is more pleasure but with such negative comments made by maxers in the forums with reguards to who attacks better, why no engineered in cwl, the way the game was ment to be played it feels good to sometimes whip up on a maxer clan. Of course rather than owning up to the loss its becomes its the mm fault and the cycle repeats over again. Guess i should just stop.
Everything you've stated so far makes total sense. I agree that some optimizing their bases with the info given, which in turn, gives them an advantage. But isn't it also safe to say that this info that you have regarding the issues with the mm shouldn't have been made available in the first place? Supercell implemented some changes to the mm that ALLOWS you to get these mismatches. It is, therefore, only right for Supercell to fix these issues and take away any advantages that engineered bases enjoy right now. Or simply tweak it so that engineers face other engineers, maxers vs maxers, and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperStorm103
You are correct in the single vs clan discussion. However, a single engineered base shouldn't cause that huge of a factor in overall war. It is the cumulative effect of multiple weighted bases that give too great an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperStorm103
Thank you for recognizing the small advantage maxed bases could provide. I agree and have stated numerous times, the current advantage a properly engineered clan can have is too great and should be addressed. I still believe (maybe pointless) that mm should be able to accommodate both ways and match any type of clan with any other clan and still have a somewhat fair match. It will never be perfect, but a 55-45 split can be overcome, some of the 95-5 are silly. And these are the matches that I believe lead to less participation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Do you honestly feel the mm is working properly? That it's working as intended? If it is, then why is Supercell making more changes to it? If it isn't, then how can you tell someone to "own up to their loss" if it's not working as intended and forced 2 clans to face each other who had no business facing each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
I can only speak for myself and somewhat for my clan, but if maxers are kept in the same war pool with engineers, i will no longer be in such a pool. I'm sure some might try to take the engineered path, but I think many will disappear from the pool as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
I've never claimed engineers were bad attackers. In fact, I would guess that many engineers would be excellent attackers and have great base designs as well. However, this just makes me wonder even more why they insist on being able to attack lower levels as well.
It's good to know that you so much enjoy beating up lower level opponents. You must be so proud. And yes, they had every right to complain if you beat them from a higher th.
Finally, I can't believe I'm gonna agree with you on something else, but yes, I agree that you should just stop.
I have repeatedly said that the mm isn't perfect and improvement need to be made, however I have also said the mm is not as far off as many claim. I have posted in my journal when we lose and what happened and what we could of done different. How many time do you see that on the forums? Or are the posts mostly we got a bad match because.. I can only go with what I see and being in 3 clans of various styles and levels I don't see all these massive mismatches. Do they exist? Sure they do we get them to. Maybe 1 in 10 either for or against. No where near the 8/10 many claim are mismatches. If a clan is getting that many they are either super unlucky which could be 1 or 2 clans, they are doing something to get mismatched, or they only think it's a mismatch because of th level, clan level, think a rushed base is really engineered, etc. Because it isn't an absolutely perfect match.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBlaze
I'll give credit where credit is due. I haven't read your journal in its entirety but you absolutely do that. Whether the mismatches happen as often as some say or not I have no idea. I can only speak from clans experience and from what the posts simply say here in the forums. And I do agree that the mm will never be perfect. Nor do I expect it to give exact or perfect matches. All I want to see is a mm that more adequately accounts every base that's tossed in the random spin. At the end of the day, most, if not everyone, wants to play how they want. It's just the rest of us who choose not to engineer don't want to be put at a disadvantage simply because of not choosing to engineer.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit
Thank you for recognizing the small advantage maxed bases could provide. I agree and have stated numerous times, the current advantage a properly engineered clan can have is too great and should be addressed. I still believe (maybe pointless) that mm should be able to accommodate both ways and match any type of clan with any other clan and still have a somewhat fair match. It will never be perfect, but a 55-45 split can be overcome, some of the 95-5 are silly. And these are the matches that I believe lead to less participation.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. Max bases definitely have a small advantage over lower bases at their level. That small advantage worked against me as as I've worked to max at each th to this point. I had no issues with this and actually expected that disadvantage each time I upgraded ths. Now that I have reached max 9, the game has changed. I have become a liability for my clan with current mm. I now pull 10s into our wars. All I wanted to do was be able to fight at 9 for a bit without worrying about heroes being down before moving to 10. Once I upgrade to10, I will once again expect that small disadvantage.
I do also wish the mm could accommodate everyone as well, it just seems like a tall task. For our clan, mm has never been worse. We can't see them changing mm for the worse for sure, but we're also not confident that any upcoming changes would be enough to make the game playable for us. When/if changes are announced, we will definitely give war another shot, but we are not overly optomistic.
Why do most anti-engineers come to this? Why is it a universal assumption that all engineers are dipping 2+ th levels for all their attacks? I mean don't get me wrong I am sure there are defenseless/low level th11 clans spamming their mass drag or whatever, but in my experience both in engineered and non-engineered wars this is rare. Every war I have ever participated in has taken dip attacks to secure the victory. Do you participate in the NDL (No Dip League)? Where do these wars exist that require no dip attacks at all? I guess if your clan wars at a th8 and 9 level only then this could be more plausible. Just seems to me that every clan that wins frequently utilizes dip attacks. Bottom th9s cleaning max 8s, bottom th10s cleaning max 9s, bottom th11 cleaning max 10s. It just seems like a very common practice in war. I mean the CWL seems to utilize a dip strategy to a huge extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Seems like to me you just lump all forms of engineering into that defenseless th11 dragon spam version of engineering that typically results in bad mismatches due to a faulty MM, but I just refuse to believe that this is all that common. If this was such a common occurrence then SC would have likely done something about it awhile ago. I have seen this once in hundreds of wars.
Also whether maxers and engineers get separated in the MM or all the maxers decide to quit because SC does nothing it effectively results in the same ending. A smaller MM pool that will have less available clans to match against each other which will likely result in just as many mismatches as there are now. Just because maxers match maxers (if SC goes that route) doesn't mean that there wont still be mismatches. Maybe the mismatches wont be as severe as they are now, but there will still be mismatches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
You do realize that the difference in power (offensively and defensively) between a new th9 and a max th9 is a pretty sizable difference, same goes for a th10 and th11. It is not necessarily just a small advantage if a true max th9 is matching with a lower th9 on regular basis, and if you have a bunch of true max bases in your lineup then that advantage becomes cumulative. I would also argue the gap widens even more a th10 and th11 between new and maxed. As a max th9 you shouldn't just pull other th9s because then likely you will always have the advantage.Quote:
Thanks. Max bases definitely have a small advantage over lower bases at their level. That small advantage worked against me as as I've worked to max at each th to this point. I had no issues with this and actually expected that disadvantage each time I upgraded ths. Now that I have reached max 9, the game has changed. I have become a liability for my clan with current mm. I now pull 10s into our wars. All I wanted to do was be able to fight at 9 for a bit without worrying about heroes being down before moving to 10. Once I upgrade to10, I will once again expect that small disadvantage.
I do also wish the mm could accommodate everyone as well, it just seems like a tall task. For our clan, mm has never been worse. We can't see them changing mm for the worse for sure, but we're also not confident that any upcoming changes would be enough to make the game playable for us. When/if changes are announced, we will definitely give war another shot, but we are not overly optomistic.
edit: not sure what happened to quotes on this one or how to fix it really
Actually, I'm more concerned when one clan dips at top and the other clan is unable as they do not have higher ths. If we have 10s in our lineup, it doesn't bother me if opposing clan dips on me. Our 10s can do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by WookieFloyd
But it sounds like you run a maxish lineup. You do realize that even with the new changes to the MM a maxed any base (other than th11) will still have a high probability of pulling a base at the next th level. Barring participating in a structure lineup league there is zero chance that the MM can give every clan a perfect th vs th match, it is just not possible with the immense amount of variability that exists in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
I had trouble with quotes as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by WookieFloyd
But I disagree. I think a 9 should pull a 9, 10 a 10, and so on. As I've already explained, I worked my way through 9 that way and hope to do the same at 10. 9.5 has too much of an advantage on a 9. In fact I'm tiring of all the 9.5 talk, it's a 10.
Two maxed 9s, two or three mid 9s, new 9 or 2, and couple of 8s.I just can't understand why we would begin pulling multiple 10s consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by WookieFloyd
It is a th10 that is true, people just want to always try to classify things. Regardless of what th anything is I am fairly certain that SC has already decided that they felt in previous MMs that maxed bases had far too much of an advantage, and that resulted in permamaxing and a halt in base progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Lets say you war at th8 and 9 and only bring fully maxed bases to war. Based on your opinion of how MM should work you will always have an advantage in war because there will be so few other clans with your exact lineup that you will just match clans with newer th8s and 9s. How is this fair? Oh wait you only seem to think there is a small advantage between a new th9 and a max th9 facing eachother. Now I get the fact that this match may be more fair then matching a clan with a bunch of defenseless th11s with max hereoes, but just because it's more fair doesn't make it fair.
edit: I think what you are looking for is a league....
Maybe I should look at a league. Also, I would consider myself a tempamaxer. I just want to enjoy the warring for a short while without worrying about upgrades before moving to 10. I actually don't like the term permamax. You nor I know when someone is ready to upgrade their th. At least you do admit that a maxer based mm would be more fair. So thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by WookieFloyd
I never said anything about a maxer based MM, nor would I ever think that this would be a fair way for SC to change the MM too. I only said a max th9 matching a newish th9 would be more fair then matching with defenseless th11s with max troops, but still not fair. I am fairly certain a maxer based MM would result in just as many poor unwinnable mismatches for the casual rusher clan as the MM we have now. Just instead of them facing engineers they will just face maxers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBlaze
The thing you both and all those threads have in common is that you aren't casual. You represent a more serious/hardcore clasher and you're saying "this is what I find fun," "this is what I don't find fun" and lumping the majority with you and saying the game is bad health if we don't change something for the casuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by JFSoul
This is akin to the bowler/miner nerf and PowerBang coming out and saying they need to be nerfed for the betterment of the game, I wonder how casuals took that nerf when some more hardcore players on this forum subsequently quit thereafter? Was Power Bang wrong? Well he represents an even more hardcore faction so therefore he and his many supporters were correct, but for their ilk, did they consult the wider community? Heck no, but yet he advocated for the wider community based on his own experiences.
Now how many of you actually war with casuals and I mean true casuals that don't even know about the forums, don't even watch youtube don't regularly clean up TH8s and TH9s in war? How many of you actually do that? How many would even entertain the idea of including such a player in their clan? I would say very few but yet you are trying to represent these guys without even knowing first what they want, you're all basing your opinion on what you want and applying it.
Case in point:
You want to face your equals in war and think everyone else wants that..... do they really? Factor in this game outside of war is based on big fish eat the little fish, war only being 2 attacks in 48 hours, how many casual clashers do you think have the same mentality when approaching war of big fish eating little fish would automatically switch to mano y mano?
How many do you think can make that switch? Again these are stats and data none of us have but yet some people think because they can write long essays on the state of the game that their opinions are somehow more valid when representing the majority of the clasher base.
Hmmm very interesting pov. Never thought about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
You are missing something, I think. The usual line of thought is that engineering hurts casuals both because they don't engineer themselves and because they are the primary prey of engineers, most likely to be in the wider th spread mixed lineup family and friends clans. That hurts the game because it means they can win less wars than they would have done if matched with other friends and family clans, and so have less fun than they would have done at war and are more likely to drop out of warring altogether. So when someone says something like "the matchmaker advantage from engineering should be kerbed for the betterment of the game" they aren't trying to speak for the casuals as if they shared that mentality, or pretending to represent a majority, but rather are speaking up to say something both sensible and plausible going from pretty well established facts about engineering, people's enjoyment, and what happens when people perceive systematic unfairness or excess difficulty (such as being repeatedly beaten up by bigger troops than any of them have).Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
Hmmm more interesting pov. Nice rebuttalQuote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
They are primary prey based on what stats exactly? Do you have the stats and data to back up your claims or do you just have assumptions based on other's experience with the matchmaking? Have you warred with true casuals on a regular basis in the last 6 months? I have, not once did we bump into an engineered clan, was it their loss streak or negative win/loss ratio that came into play? Possibly but that never get's brought up when determining whether that is protection for casual clans, rather it's regularly brought up as "punishment" for those who go a on win streak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
I'm in a very casual clan. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one in my clan to read anything from these forums, much less post a message. I can tell you that we have consistently (last couple of months) been matched with clans that have higher ths. We are tired of being hit by higher troops than we have available. Their bases are not easy either. They normally have some upgrades (teslas) also. I am your casual (very casual) player and I will not play with current mm. I only speak for one casual clan, but I'm sure we're not alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
Great response. My hero. A friendly voice in the dark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
Good stuff. My backup hero.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
Wow really? I havent been warring lately bc I got burnt out but prior to me taking break, I rarely ran into engineers n if I did I jus crush em (they didnt engineer optimally) I used mostly max to balanced bases. Im prob one of the rare few who thought war mm was overall good hence y u never c me complain here about my wars. (Than again due to circumstances we could only do 10 man wars n I was told most engineer clans don't war wit such a low body count) o btw: I too am from a super casual clan n im like u. Only one in clan who uses other tools to heighten my knowledgeQuote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
I gave you the reasoning, "most likely to be in the wider th spread mixed lineup". It's pretty well established fact that the bigger your th spread, the more likely you are to match engineers. I have not myself participated in a casual family and friends clan's war lately (unless I call my own clan that, but it's not typical for being mostly th11s so I won't), but I have been an observer visiting to that kind of war in other clans 4 times in the last 6 months. At one point we used include 3-5 th9 at the bottom of our own war lineup, but our matches were then as a result nearly all to engineers with 9.5s so we stopped taking 9s to war or into the clan as new members. Managing your roster that way isn't an option for most family and friends clans.Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
30/30 "Tempa"maxed TH9, (very casual) player?? If you claim that, I wonder what your "casual" clan mates are like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Yep. 10 man wars are littered with engineers as well. That is what we normally run. MM didn't seem too bad until couple of moths ago. Now it it unplayable. It's good for folks to see real casuals would prefer to play without engineers.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimchilove
I have been through enough casual clans to have experienced this, yet with the spread, we rarely faced engineered clans, rather we faced rushed clans and maxed clans. I threw in win streak, win/loss ratio because the clans I went to had very low wins compared with losses, if we are talking about true casuals again I am stating those that regularly leave TH9s and below uncleared. Not sure if that applies to your clan but it certainly applied to the ones I warred with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
I don't see as how his base progression says anything about hardcore vs casual. Max 9 and staying there for the present may simply be "playing this a long time just at my own speed, not feeling any rush to get bigger any faster, and I happen to be up to here where I'm happy sitting for a bit"Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
Ic. Alot has changed apparently than. I havent warred in 3 months. I always kept my th tight th9-11 n had no manipulated bases in lineup n doing that has allowed us to have a solid war mm. Hopefully it didnt change too much n if it did is all love. I'll always do what ive always done....adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Yes indeed. Very casual. And I have two of those. It did take YEARS for me to get them there. Most of my clan mates just war. When we war with 10s, they all have all defenses, nowhere near max. Most of them went up with 15/15 heros while I kept slowly grinding. But again, they play as casuals, defenses dropped.Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
Ok that's an odd definition then, I think one can be casual without regularly leaving low bases uncleared. After all we've all got 2 attacks and even if not everyone uses them there's a pretty good chance someone will dip to clear an easier base if it's there for the taking. It may happen here and there depending on what order people attacked in and whether they were saving one for someone who didn't turn up earlier, but that's the way it is rather than a characteristic feature. No, my clan never leaves low ones uncleared, we are strictly 3 star the th10 and below, 2 star the 11s - but then we leave out or kick anyone who doesn't do both attacks. That to me is one casual hallmark, having to remind people to please try to remember to do 2 attacks and needing to say "never mind" for the sale of the relationship when they don't always get there on that goal. The other would be of course including people in a war lineup just because they are your family, friends, coworkers rather than because they meet some base progression standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
It's a definition that highlights a clan's approach to war. A clan that is organised and geared to winning can be experienced and inactive (casual) and still win because they have the skills/organisation ingrained from earlier wars experienced but I wouldn't label them casual. A casual clan in my books lacks those fundamentals and attack skills. The ones where people log in during a 5 minute break spam a pre-cooked army. That to me is a true casual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
I am doing my own 10 person wars ranging from some max th8, some th9, th10, and my max th11. All balanced bases, zero .5 or engineering. The last months have been insane in what SC is matching. The engineering is crazy. Every war in the past 20 (every... Single... One) my opponent has had a minimum of two engineered accounts. A few wars back, in a 10vs10, they had 4 engineered accounts (all th11 offence) plus two full TH11 anchors. I found the further I got into a win streak, the nuttier the matches got.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
I got an 18 win streak, mostly with some luck vs a few engineered clans sucking horribly... but my 19th battle I faced that clan mentioned above. Twelve th11 attacks to my two!? They got 29* with ease and I simple couldn't cover the advantage they had on defence with the few extra th11.
Even my my current war they have three th11 with eagles and IT, to my 1. But they have no th10. This seems to be the thing to do now in 10-10 wars. Very little fun tbh. I run a balanced 10 accounts, should not be hard to do better SC.
(Full disclosure. In my last 25 wars the mismatch has been HUGE in MY favor two times. One I got 30* in 10 attacks with ease and had over a 270 hero advantage in a 10-10. I felt terrible for them.)
The point I want to highlight from the above comments, is we don't even have a unified definition of what constitutes casuals, we don't even have a clear picture of what the wider clash community is, so I think it's a bit rich to say anyone that doesn't have access to such stats/market research can say anything on their behalf.
Remember there are over 3 million clans with close to 150 million accounts out there according to clash of stats: https://www.clashofstats.com/.
This is a game that is played across probably close to over 100 different countries with different cultures and attitudes towards games and what constitutes fair. What makes some people scream unfair may make different people think "hey that's smart, I may copy" and that is based very much on culture and attitude.
Can you guys honestly say your views are representative of the majority of the clashers with that in mind? The only thing you can say with certainty is that your views are representative of the majority of the clashers that you have been exposed to much like Power Bangs views on game balance are representative of his exposure to the game.
But are his views actually for the good of the casuals (the wider clash community) or are they only good for competitive wars and YouTube content?
I consider almost everything you say to be gospel, but this I have to disagree with. Sitting at max th9 is an unnatural act, in this game based on progression. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
I might even suggest it's more unnatural than rushing and grabbing big troops, or wardens, or suchlike.
You and your clanmate can offer justifications for perma th9, and some of them might even sound reasonable; but as far as I'm concerned it's either to look for an advantage, or because your clanmate isn't interested in progression right now. Third possibility is that it's to keep participating in CWL. If so, then great! Stay in CWL, and I'll root for you. But random spins have no bearing on that.
I just paused a 9.5... permanently I suspect, given my time commitments the next 2.5-3 years... with nothing but valk5 and wiz7, upgraded ad and tesla. Looks suspicious as hell to outsiders, maybe... but cmon, what else should I have done that early? valk5 is the biggest upgrade in the game, and we get hit by lavaloon often enough that big ad is the way to go.
I can only pledge my sincerity that I would like to keep leveling him, but time will not permit. Which leads me to my point:
The reason people choose to pause at any given state of base building should not be--cannot be--a reason to discriminate among them in terms of matchups. Otherwise you're positing a matchmaker far smarter and more emotionally discerning than most humans.
Instead, we're left looking at their results instead of their intentions. And the matchmaker does a hash of that. Which brings us back to square one: all of us want a better matchmaker.
You're absolutely right in saying that I don't represent casual players or the majority of clashers in general. But there is one thing you are forgetting. Want to know how I know what many clashers want? It's simple. Supercell is implementing changes to the mm. Why? Pretty safe to say it's because enough players complained about it. Enough players who's mentalities aligned with mine regarding the mm and poor matches it gives sometimes. Now whether it was majority of players or not I don't know. But what I do know is that A LOT of players complained enough to the point of Supercell deciding to make changes. And you know who else is included in those players complaining? Yep. CASUALS. I'm pretty sure that if not very many players complained about this, we wouldn't be getting a fix. But, and this is just my opinion, has been one of the most polarizing issues I've seen for quite some time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
i think th 10's once developed are a war liability right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by FiletMinion
lvl 3 miners just aint cutting it for 3* vs another near max 10
and with the additional defense added to th11's now, 2* is getting much harder
hence leave them out for now. or just go to th11 for warden/troops (optimizing for the win... SC broke the game? no way)
It can't be done. No matter how they update the matchmaker, there will always be sub-optimal ways to build your base; engineers are players who avoid doing those things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
I have good news! There is no need for this to bother you, because it's often not true. All of our wars are against other engineers, and recently they have all been excellent matches. For at least four in a row now we have had 5 TH11, 5 TH10, 10+ TH9, rest lower, with one eagle and 2-4 infernos on each side. We couldn't ask for better balance. One we lost, two we won, and battle day on the next starts in a few hours. My biggest fear with the upcoming changes is that the good situation we presently find ourselves in will somehow be disrupted (a not uncommon situation with supercell updates, alas).Quote:
Originally Posted by Playforwar
Unless, of course, you're using the "engineered = defenseless TH11" definition, in which case, neither of our clans have any engineers.
I think casuals enjoy OP troop combinations like the original miners.Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
What about casual clans that engineer? In many ways my play style, my clan, is casual. Often times I just log in to tap my collectors on each account and log out without farming. I don't spend an hour planning each war attack; I don't skitch it out; I don't use a voice spotter. Sometimes I even use a canned army. Engineering really helped me two days ago: due to family stuff going on during the day I didn't start my war attacks until after I had gone to bed for the night, and was boosting barracks on multiple accounts in order to get my attacks in. On one 11 I was able to build a generic miner army and 3 star a couple of 9.5s with minimal planning. On another I did the same with QW into hogs, and on my 9 I built a couple witch slap armies and hit two enemy TH9s that were conducive to that attack. You could make a case that my 11s should have attacked the top two enemy bases, which were much more difficult and would have required planning, but I didn't have the time to plan, and we had other folks who were equipped to hit those. Some people would say I should just have opted out of that war entirely if all I had to attack was an hour, but that's no fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomville
but I have bad news!!Quote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
we were facing a lot of engineers, 4 out of 5 wars were against them, I would say, which put us in a big disadvantage in wars, that's why we decided to quit until the update
I truly hope the MM is fixed, it's the only hope for me and my clan
But were they true defenseless TH11 engineers?Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
Maybe you should start optimizing your bases. The MM seems to be very good at matching optimized clans against each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
no, we're th7~9, mostly th8s, we never faced th11s (not that I remember at least) , but we did face a lot of defenseless th10s, yesQuote:
Originally Posted by littledoctor
optimizing? you mean engineering? NEVER. we'd rather quit than engineering
Quote:
Originally Posted by strandwolfza
Then quit, I quit for a month now from war and just playing casually collecting loot and doing my 3 wins attacks on builder base. I quit farming too. You will be a lot lest stressful.
yeah, we quit, but only temporarily, until the MM updateQuote:
Originally Posted by lypang
You don't need to go that far. There are leagues, FW, potluck spins. Gets you away from engineering, gets you away from the easy wars you often find in random spins vs kids, rush jobs, clans full of global detritus (which strangely, no one complains about).
This is on point. There are so many assumptions made on here to help justify people positions on both sides it gets to be a bit much. I am a civil engineer in real life and one thing I have learned over my brief career so far is that your assumptions can make or break a design.Quote:
Originally Posted by JKL2207
3 million clans.... You add up all the clans of every person in this forum and we likely don't even scratch the surface of that.
I will say this that since the BH release clash has been in the top 10 grossing apps every time I look. I would argue based on this that the majority of clashers are likely very happy with the state of the game currently. Regardless of all the complaining on the forums, people are still spending money to play this game, and if people are spending money then SC must be doing something right. But if you looked at this game through the perspective of the forum you would likely draw the conclusion that this game is on its way out the door.
You do realize that SC has been changing the MM on a constant basis since pretty much the inception of clan wars. I also find it interesting that you call the MM adjustments a fix. Nobody knows anything about these MM changes yet here we are discussing how it is getting fixed. Lets just be honest with ourselves and say this is just another iteration in MM adjustments. If you start labeling it a fix and it doesn't turn out how you want then what, is it a fail? Do we just further enrage ourselves by setting a certain expectation with no factual evidence to base it on, if it falls short of our perceived idea of what this fix is? I agree that this is a very polarizing issue on the forums but does that translate across clash as a whole. I am not saying it doesn't but am also not sure if it does. Of the 150 million accounts over 3 million clans how many of these players does "A LOT" represent?Quote:
Originally Posted by DBlaze
More players spent more time, money, and effort trying to upgrade their base. Then found out they got three starred by engineers.
As do people that engineer their accountsQuote:
Originally Posted by PaulplaysCOC
but that is to be expected when they are missing defenses. Th8's and th9's should not be getting tripled by their mirror or lower who happens to be a 10/10/5 + max offense th11. Don't believe me? Check these replays! Pro Engineer 4 and 5:Quote:
Originally Posted by Orsyrus
https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...Roast-Em/page4
post #35 and #37