Engineering...after all my research... supercell is telling me ...

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

Where i see one side fluid and evoloving, changing with in the game as SC contiunues to change the otherside can be considered hard nose and stubbornn unwilling to bend and flex with the times. It would really appear this group is a vocal.minority. Still I see their place and need in the game.
I also see one side willing to work with all and another side being selfrighteous wishing to cast the other out of the game.

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Its statements like this that do nothing to encourage discussion, but instead, only adds fuel to the fires by putting one side on some sort of pedestal and basically saying the other side should be pretty much bowing down lol if Supercell simply made the necessary corrections in a timely manner, engineering wouldn't even be as widespread as it is, let alone be as dominant as it is. A mm that pits engineering clans vs engineering clans and maxers vs maxers is what most of us would like to see. Similar clans with similar builds and strengths. Certainly no need to call one side stubborn and self righteous for wanting this. So let's pump the brakes lol

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Originally Posted by DBlaze

Its statements like this that do nothing to encourage discussion, but instead, only adds fuel to the fires by putting one side on some sort of pedestal and basically saying the other side should be pretty much bowing down lol if Supercell simply made the necessary corrections in a timely manner, engineering wouldn't even be as widespread as it is, let alone be as dominant as it is. A mm that pits engineering clans vs engineering clans and maxers vs maxers is what most of us would like to see. Similar clans with similar builds and strengths. Certainly no need to call one side stubborn and self righteous for wanting this. So let's pump the brakes lol

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Agree. As a maxer, I just want to fight my own level. I don't care how engineers build their base as long as they fight their own level or play style. I don't think I'm being self righteous for feeling this way. I think some are probably upset because they are beginning to realize that they will lose some of their advantage if maxers are removed from the engineered war pool. I've removed myself from the war pool for the moment as the current MM(last month or so) has never been this harsh on maxers in my opinion . Our clan had a few return after they heard of mm changes. They immediately saw changes for the worse. I hope mm changes so that clans that wish to fight there own level can do so before we lose them again and probably more. Once again, we just want to fight our own.

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Originally Posted by DBlaze

Its statements like this that do nothing to encourage discussion, but instead, only adds fuel to the fires by putting one side on some sort of pedestal and basically saying the other side should be pretty much bowing down lol if Supercell simply made the necessary corrections in a timely manner, engineering wouldn't even be as widespread as it is, let alone be as dominant as it is. A mm that pits engineering clans vs engineering clans and maxers vs maxers is what most of us would like to see. Similar clans with similar builds and strengths. Certainly no need to call one side stubborn and self righteous for wanting this. So let's pump the brakes lol

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Originally Posted by SystematicChaos

Very few people arguing against engineering are permamaxers. Nobody is telling engineers to Max everything and sit at a townhall level. In fact, very few people are saying that cast the engineers out of the game, if they are, it is not because they hate engineers, but because they hate how the mm works.

We, the players with non-maxed balanced bases, want that engineers should pull similarly engineered clans and maxers should pull maxers. That's all we want. But I don't see too many engineers agreeing to this.

A lot of engineers are good attackers too and they only resorted to engineering to stop their clan from losing to other engineers. These people should not have a problem if the advantage of engineered bases is taken away.

As for the others who want the advantage that engineering provides in war to stay, I see a bunch of people who are scared to attack a th9 with th9 troops(not even talking about 10v10s). Yes it is hard, and nobody 6 packs every war, but that's why it's fun.

And if the definition of engineered is confusing, then I'll just say what I consider engineering. Every base whose defence and offence are not weighted at the same th level, can be considered engineered. Yes, .5s are engineered, that's why supercell nerfed them.

This is not about ethics anymore. Supercell has made its stand clear, war weight manipulation is not a valid strategy according to them. But they are not saying that lopsided bases should suffer, they're saying that they should not get an advantage in war. I don't see why engineers are against this idea.

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You forget the largest population is neither maxed nor engineered. However maxers seem to claim if your not maxed youre engineered.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

You forget the largest population is neither maxed nor engineered. However maxers seem to claim if your not maxed youre engineered.

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Yeah, by some logic (by many of the engineers themselves), maxers may be engineers if they build defenses in a certain order all the while working toward maxing. That's pretty close to my upgrade path as well. I think you're either engineered, rushed, or maxed with little wiggle room for anything else.

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Originally Posted by fennster1969

When I started playing, before clan wars, engineering was not in the game. I was encouraged by SC to max everything and upgrade TH. The way the game was intended to be played. If I rushed, I suffered, there was only disadvantage if I didn't upgrade my defences, no advantage.

Now having reached max TH10, investing alot of time and effort, I discover the goal posts have moved, I shouldn't have bothered, I should have just upgraded my th, cc, camps, and troops and pretty much nothing else.

So, for arguements sake, lets say I now decide engineering is the way to go. Please tell me what my options are as a max th10? There is only one option, throw away the time, money and effort I have put in and start again. Well if that is the intention, I am sorry but it's not happening. I want to play the game, but you can't take my money and then move the goal posts. Imagine if you ordered and paid for a brand new Ferrari and they delivered a Porsche and said, "sorry we think the Porsche is a better car and is what you should be driving". (other makes of car are available...lol).

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Everyone should be forced to read this twice. Great post.

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Originally Posted by Darmanation

Everyone should be forced to read this twice. Great post.

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Ok read it twice. Fennster can:
a. Continue to max, enjoy the game, be at a current disadvantage but maybe with New mm that changes.
b. Continue to max, be an anchor and have the rest of his clan engineer
c. Upgrade to th11, get the warden, upgrade offense, skip new defenses and be a 10.5.

Lots of options. Why did I read it twice?

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

well if maxers think anything other than maxed is engieering then well... everyone is engineered at some point except the permamaxer.

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Here, let me help you.

Engineer: design and build (a machine or structure).

Every base is engineered, including maxed bases; some poorly, some not. The term "engineer" in the context of CoC generally refers to bases with more offense than defense. Within limits, I think that should be an advantage. The current state of the game allows people to create accounts with far more offense than defense to be undervalued relative to their actual value in war.

All of us who are regular visitors to the forum know that you have more accounts than even most hardcore players. It seems like you're merely advocating for what is best for you, not the larger player base.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

The current state of the game allows people to create accounts with far more offense than defense to be undervalued relative to their actual value in war.

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I find the value of offense to be terribly overvalued in the forums in relation to how it is actually valued in the wider clash community when you factor skill.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

It seems like you're merely advocating for what is best for you, not the larger player base.

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If we were actually worried about advocating what's best for the larger player base you would have to actually come up with statistics from that said player base about the actual 3 star rates against same TH levels, all I see on these forums are citing stats from CWL and using those to justify game balance or the lackthereof.

If we are trying to advocate what's best for the larger population, and we value their fun, has anyone even bothered to work out what they deem fun yet? Does the larger population actually derive fun from hitting their own level and failing repeatedly, or do they like the continuation of farming practices of hitting weaker bases for more guaranteed success?

Do the greater population like spending time planning their war attacks or are they too busy doing real life stuff and just log and spam a pre-cooked army and hope to god it doesn't fail?

Essentially I see a bunch of hardcore players in casual clothing trying to project their version of what constitutes fun and saying this is what casuals consider fun and that the game will be wrecked if it isn't fixed, whilst ignoring the fact that those same people are the ones that reject players from lower levels from playing with them.

Here is a snippet from another thread:

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

You're proposing that people who suck at the game not be allowed to war. That's not letting them play the game any way they want to play.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

They can war in a clan that's not too concerned with winning. There are plenty of clans like that out there.

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^^Look familiar? You don't care about people of less skill don't pretend to. That's the larger population there buddy.

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Originally Posted by JKL2207

I find the value of offense to be terribly overvalued in the forums in relation to how it is actually valued in the wider clash community when you factor skill.

If we were actually worried about advocating what's best for the larger player base you would have to actually come up with statistics from that said player base about the actual 3 star rates against same TH levels, all I see on these forums are citing stats from CWL and using those to justify game balance or the lackthereof.

If we are trying to advocate what's best for the larger population, and we value their fun, has anyone even bothered to work out what they deem fun yet? Does the larger population actually derive fun from hitting their own level and failing repeatedly, or do they like the continuation of farming practices of hitting weaker bases for more guaranteed success?

Do the greater population like spending time planning their war attacks or are they too busy doing real life stuff and just log and spam a pre-cooked army and hope to god it doesn't fail?

Essentially I see a bunch of hardcore players in casual clothing trying to project their version of what constitutes fun and saying this is what casuals consider fun and that the game will be wrecked if it isn't fixed, whilst ignoring the fact that those same people are the ones that reject players from lower levels from playing with them.

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If I could like this post ten times I would. Coming from a friend and family clan that is composed mostly of folks who are working adults and have only one account I can tell "you" that what is making casuals quit isn't because they are sick of facing engineered accounts in war.

The primary reason for quitting is the god awful long grind once you get past TH8. Most have lots of fun prior to that point and then give up.

The next most reason for quitting is that war after TH8 is simply too hard for them. I am the war leader and I have people tell me that they want to hit weaker bases. The TH9 folks who are hitting their own level and failing repeatedly have either permanently opted out of war or have rage quitted the game completely.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Ok read it twice. Fennster can:
a. Continue to max, enjoy the game, be at a current disadvantage but maybe with New mm that changes.
b. Continue to max, be an anchor and have the rest of his clan engineer
c. Upgrade to th11, get the warden, upgrade offense, skip new defenses and be a 10.5.

Lots of options. Why did I read it twice?

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Option a. Why should i be put at a disadvantage through no fault of my own? Yes, i hope new mm does improve things for me and my clan.
b. Being forced to be an anchor is not in the spirit of everybody being allowed to play the game the way they want to. Neither is making the rest of my clan engineer!
c. Being forced to go 10.5 also isnt in the spirit of freedom of choice!

Not the most persuasive of options. Basically I have to join the engineering band wagon, within the retricted limits of being at the level I am already at, or keep my fingers crossed the new mm algorithm improves things, lol.

In line with my original post, I will drive the Porsche, but only because I have no choice, I still want the Ferrari I ordered and paid for. ��