The engineer and the "flop"

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

Right, those are non engineer wars in which the battle is close.

Which is why I have a hard time reconciling how engineering fits into their principles.

If it had not been for the statement regarding TH Sniping, it would be hard to argue against engineering in any way. One issue SC has, is when you make a statement like they did, folks line up the "well ok, what about this,that and the other thing" questions regarding other aspects of the game.

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I'm not sure how much engineering war experience you have but we had about 200 wars and 99% was against engineering clan as we are an engineering clan too. About 50% of those wars are close wars. There are different levels of engineering and you really have to experience it to see what they are. You only see about 10% of what engineering is if you run into them as a maxer clan.

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Originally Posted by lypang

I'm not sure how much engineering war experience you have but we had about 200 wars and 99% was against engineering clan as we are an engineering clan too. About 50% of those wars are close wars. There are different levels of engineering and you really have to experience it to see what they are. You only see about 10% of what engineering is if you run into them as a maxer clan.

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you guys gem a lot of troops during war?

dont see why that would occur when you are dipping 2 th levels and farting the same comp every time? maybe enlighten us

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

you guys gem a lot of troops during war?

dont see why that would occur when you are dipping 2 th levels and farting the same comp every time? maybe enlighten us

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Lypang was pointing out that in his experience that some of his wars were close when it's engineer vs engineer. I could see this if they are similarly engineered.

close war doesnt mean people are gemming troops. maxer war isnt the case all the time either.

would reckon the players gemming the most troops are legends league

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Originally Posted by eXAt

I consider engineering to be a legit style of play in that it is completely within the rules of the game, I don't believe people who choose to do it should be vilified for this reason.

I can understand why people are annoyed with them, they give the other clan an advantage after all. I have been in clans that engineered and been against them and while I do think the advantage they get should be toned down I don't think the people that do it deserve to have their accounts become... "potatoes" I guess.

I think one of the main reasons there is such a hate for engineered bases is they have become a scapegoat for many clans to pin their faults too. Anybody can lose a war and point to the th11 on the other side with no xbows, inferno towers, or ea and say: "look at that base, the war was over before it even started". And while this isn't the case for many of the clans of the regular users here, it is certainly something that the more average clans do.

One of the other things that I believe makes people dislike engineered bases is that, outside of making a new account, you can't engineer your base if it's already fully built. This is annoying as even if many people wanted to make their base as competitive as possible in clan wars they won't be able to.

DISCLAIMER: This is almost entirely based on my own opinion, so use your own judgment I guess.

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That isn't why my clan strongly dislikes engineered clans, but I'm also sure that applies to other clans.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

I can see the idea of the 2* to a 3* technique. The idea from my end is how engineering was prior to march 2016 to how it is now. I also see than when a pro engineer comes up with an anology that anti engineera always claim the analogy is poor. I see that more a fault of their bias vs the anology. Espiceally when often times the pro engineers see the anology. Yes that could also be the bias of the pro engineer. It is just interesting how closed minded some people are.

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Yes, close-minded people can often be frustrating. Bias is usually not a good thing.

The interesting part here, however, is have you actually asked yourself that same question?

Is it you that is biased in your arguments?

Because I can tell you that it strongly comes across like a conclusion in search of an argument, rather than evidence supporting a conclusion from an unbiased mindset.

Further, I would accept it as an axiom that, all things equal, the player(s) who can attack/base build better should win more often than not.

The key part of that statement is, "all things equal" and as soon as you start to change that dynamic, the weaker your argument/position becomes. It's also the reason your analogy falls apart. You aren't comparing, say, two Olympic high jumpers using different techniques, you are essentially comparing an Olympic high jumper with a, say, high school state champ high jumper. They aren't even in the same league.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

This thread isnt about changing sc mind in the mm but more in response to the numerous threads where a groups uses words as unfair, exploiting, manipulative, etc., words that are used with such negative conotation vs accepting as a legit style of play and strategy based on the evolution of the game. If maxers could accept this vs hate it and demand that sc eliminate it from the game entirely, which still occurs on the forums a lot.

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Time and time again, all my clan experiences is enemy clans that execute this strategy to cover up for really crappy attacking skills (i.e. and their attacks are dominated by bully attacks, usually of the spam variety--laloon, mass drag, etc. that strongly suggest rudimentary, at best, attacking skills). Based on the above, it seems like you want people to, "accept [it] as a legit style of play?"

Are you kidding me?

It's scoffed and scorned like no tomorrow in my clan and for good reason.

Further, all the above points to is bias on your part. You've yet to provide a single, compelling reason why engineering is good for the game

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Originally Posted by Warios

Why is it, that months ago when people were realising on a large scale what effect engineering had on the MM, when a "maxer" mentioned that the engineer should drop their defence buildings, the retort was why should we be forced to play your way.

But now many people who follow the engineering path of development say, those who who dropped defence buildings after this point in time, had the choice not to, and now they are in the wrong.

Why was the argument, we want to play our way ok for the engineers back then, but now those who wish to develop their bases fully, are told you should not play that way, and it is your fault for doing so?

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Yes, that is interesting, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by shkata

I think that all the engineering starts from the heroes.To be really competitive in th9+ you need max heroes. This means may be a year or more hard work without wars . So people try to find another way - jump 1 th up without defenses , ... and this leads to the .5 era. Then .5 was somehow punished which leaded to more and more extreme engineering.And here we are...

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This is simply not true, rendering the rest of your commentary highly dubious, at best

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

Which is why I have a hard time reconciling how engineering fits into their principles.

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Engineering provides more than one way to go through base progression, which is fun for some people, which encourages them to play the game. The obvious anti-engineering counter is that engineering discourages more people than it encourages, but nobody actually knows if that is true, even supercell.

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

If it had not been for the statement regarding TH Sniping, it would be hard to argue against engineering in any way. One issue SC has, is when you make a statement like they did, folks line up the "well ok, what about this,that and the other thing" questions regarding other aspects of the game.

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Supercell's TH sniping removal clearly violated their principles.

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Originally Posted by Lunaticfringe

Further, all the above points to is bias on your part. You've yet to provide a single, compelling reason why engineering is good for the game

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Engineering is good for the game in the same way that any other strategy, such as laloon, is good for the game: it is a way to have fun, and more people having fun is good for the game.

In my case, it kept me from burning out on the wall/hero grind, and I buy gems, so not only did engineering cause a bunch of my bases to be added to the game but it also increased supercell's income.

Now, not every instance of engineering is necessarily good for the game. The matchmaker should be adjusted so that defenseless TH11 are not OP. But that's just one tiny slice out of the huge, yummy engineering pie.

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

close war doesnt mean people are gemming troops. maxer war isnt the case all the time either.

would reckon the players gemming the most troops are legends league

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I believe Sservis was saying that there is more incentive to spend on a close war, not that it happens all the time.

I personally never spent gems on anything in legends other than shields. I may gem a new troop upgrade if it was a game changer but then again that means it probably will get nerfed lol

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Engineering is good for the game in the same way that any other strategy, such as laloon, is good for the game: it is a way to have fun, and more people having fun is good for the game.

In my case, it kept me from burning out on the wall/hero grind, and I buy gems, so not only did engineering cause a bunch of my bases to be added to the game but it also increased supercell's income.

Now, not every instance of engineering is necessarily good for the game. The matchmaker should be adjusted so that defenseless TH11 are not OP. But that's just one tiny slice out of the huge, yummy engineering pie.

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That's interesting.

And the players that it frustrates a great deal, just screw them?

We are in agreement that the MM needs to be adjusted

Note that the comparison between laloon and engineering is faulty...

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Originally Posted by ryryshouse

close war doesnt mean people are gemming troops. maxer war isnt the case all the time either.

would reckon the players gemming the most troops are legends league

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When you're sitting in the clouds, why would you gem troops?

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Originally Posted by PhilISuppose

When you're sitting in the clouds, why would you gem troops?

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The reason people in the clouds gem troops is that the limiting factor in how high they can push is how many attacks they can make. If they return to their base after making an attack and their troops/heros/spells/whatever are not ready, the choice is "push less hard, have lower trophies" versus "gem".

Edit: This is due to the fact that waiting for troops is not waiting for a base. The more time spent not waiting for a base, the fewer bases they'll hit before they go on personal break, etc.