Another clan war ruined by 8.11s (extreme engineering)

Well, I'm sure these posts complaining about bad war matchups are getting old.

But so is losing to the matchmaker rather than great attackers.

Our recent "theirs to lose matchup" highlights (30v):
Ours
theirs
#2
Us: th10, single inferno, 72k (was a bit rushed to th10), 15/15, mix of th9 and th10 troops
Them: th11, no infernos or EA, 76k, 45/45/20, max troops
Pretty bad offensive mismatch. It's obvious from the 76k weight he's trying to match young th10

...
pretty reasonable lateral matchups from #3 to #24 (early th10 to th8) but then the wheels come off.
...

25-29
us: 5 th8s
them: 5 th11s (8.11s)

30:
us: th8
them: baby th6 (15k)

4 of the 5 have a max th11 attack. All 5 have gws. Heroes are weaker at 10-15 generally.

Now, everyone reading knows the program.
Th11 attacks: 0 vs 12

Grand Wardens: 0 vs 6

A good extreme engineering clan can sweep 1-12 with th11 attacks, allowing their #1 max th10 to drop to 13-14. #3 to #10 bring 16 th9 and th10 attacks to flush the board. #11 to #24 arent needed.

We can and will fight but max th10 vs max th10 is a tough 3 star. So we'll likely score 88 or 89 with good team work and planning while they perfect us with miner and loon spam.

It's not fun or fair. We increasing see these matches when we get a streak 3 to 5 wins long. They leave a sour taste in our mouth.

postscript: to those who would say, you are just whining about losing: nope. We win 2.5 wars to each loss pretty constantly for nearly 3 years; hardly a clean sweep. We loved the old close battles, win or lose. Now, we get a lot of softer matches, followed by matches that are theirs to lose (and occasionally they choke despite vastly superior attack power).

MM is very broken and its been a long time broken.

for me....
it's a mismatch when all of your roster are balance bases

so.. for another story... you've been out play by clan who do engineering more than your clan

which one your story?

don't surprise at all as we live and war in the world of engineering era....
you're not aware of this.. don't you?

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Originally Posted by Alishr99

for me....
it's a mismatch when all of your roster are balance bases

so.. for another story... you've been out play by clan who do engineering more than your clan

which one your story?

don't surprise at all as we live and war in the world of engineering era....
you're not aware of this.. don't you?

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Nothing like forcing the the lopsided bases, eh?

All people ask for is an even match with similar bases. That way whatever path Alishr99 picks, and whatever path Cheersscar picks is perfectly acceptable. If they are the same, match them up! If they aren't, don't let them on the same playing field!

I don't consider 8.11s to be extreme engineering. 8.11s and 9.11s are fairly vanilla, just taking .5 one or two steps farther.

You could make a case that defenseless are extreme. From a certain point of view they are.

But when I think of extreme engineering, I think of non-lopsided bases with a single TH11 attack and only the war attack (and maybe goblins) unlocked or leveled up. I actually started a base like this recently. The goal is to draw its mirror while weighing below TH7 and the plan is to have no heroes, and basically stop at TH9. It won't be breaking any wars, being that weak; it'll just be a fun little exercise that I can use to clean up enemy weak bases.

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

I don't consider 8.11s to be extreme engineering. 8.11s and 9.11s are fairly vanilla, just taking .5 one or two steps farther.

You could make a case that defenseless are extreme. From a certain point of view they are.

But when I think of extreme engineering, I think of non-lopsided bases with a single TH11 attack and only the war attack (and maybe goblins) unlocked or leveled up. I actually started a base like this recently. The goal is to draw its mirror while weighing below TH7 and the plan is to have no heroes, and basically stop at TH9. It won't be breaking any wars, being that weak; it'll just be a fun little exercise that I can use to clean up enemy weak bases.

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Well, so far today I've read that you think 0.5 is engineering and 8.1 is not extreme engineering. Seems to me you think everything is engineering and equally at that...

I could not disagree more. 8.11 is absolutely extreme engineering.

Designing your base to provide offensive power vs heavy maxer path th10s while weight matching vs bases 3 ths of offense power below is you is absolutely extreme engineering.

Matches with 8.11s vs th8s are solely design to exploit the matchmaker.


Furthermore, I find these matches harmful. They deprive other players of fair winnable matches. They harm the war community by preventing players from enjoying war at th7-8. They make introducing friends or family to clan wars at lower ths difficult because they are either a liability to their clan ('natural' path) or forced into a SINGLE way of playing (engineering).

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

I don't consider 8.11s to be extreme engineering. 8.11s and 9.11s are fairly vanilla, just taking .5 one or two steps farther.

You could make a case that defenseless are extreme. From a certain point of view they are.

But when I think of extreme engineering, I think of non-lopsided bases with a single TH11 attack and only the war attack (and maybe goblins) unlocked or leveled up. I actually started a base like this recently. The goal is to draw its mirror while weighing below TH7 and the plan is to have no heroes, and basically stop at TH9. It won't be breaking any wars, being that weak; it'll just be a fun little exercise that I can use to clean up enemy weak bases.

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I agree. You are flopping all over the place. If you only look at defenseless bases and the bases with only one troop maxed and an unstoppable base as "extreme engineering", you are no help with this issue. And like you just said, you are adding to it as well with making such bases.
TH8's wearing the TH11 crown are extreme engineering, same with the th9's. Purely exploiting the system. End of story. Can have your opinion all you want, they are still the main source of the problem.

Yet another unwinnable war. They have 8 max th11 attacks: 0 on our side. We have real th8s to max th10. The bottom 12 of their bases could be three starred by a th7. (Thats lateral vs 6 of our th9s!)

It pointless really. They are basically binning a little under half their defenses (boring to attack, no point) while stacking the top half of the deck with th11 attacks. We'll be perfected by loon spam while we struggle vs 2-3 bases while bashing most of the rest of the roster.

What part of this is fun? For us, none. What part of this makes us want to play or pay? None.

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Well, so far today I've read that you think 0.5 is engineering and 8.1 is not extreme engineering. Seems to me you think everything is engineering and equally at that...

I could not disagree more. 8.11 is absolutely extreme engineering.

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Do you not differentiate between "engineering" and "extreme engineering"? I do.

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Designing your base to provide offensive power vs heavy maxer path th10s while weight matching vs bases 3 ths of offense power below is you is absolutely extreme engineering.

Matches with 8.11s vs th8s are solely design to exploit the matchmaker.

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Whether true or not (8.11s do not have the weight of TH8s, but nodef TH11s might), those things aren't extreme. Google defines extreme as "reaching a high or the highest degree; very great". In this context the more different from a non-engineered base you are, the more extreme your engineering is.

8.11 is pretty close to 8.5, not ten or a hundred steps past. 8.11 hardly omit anything compared to a full TH11: xbows, infernos, eagle, and sometimes the extra TH10 and/or TH11 defenses. There is a lot more stuff than that which can be omitted by engineers.

Here is how I would rank different war weight engineering techniques, from least extreme to most extreme (I probably missed some techniques):

1. .5
2. .25 (rushing to the next TH level, doing offense, then backfilling)
3. maxed .5 (maxing the TH level and still not adding the heavy defenses)
4. "super .5" e.g. 8.10
5. 8.11 and 9.11 (with or without the new non-heavy defenses)
6. omitting more than just the highest weight defenses; the more omitted, the more extreme; the earlier you start, the more extreme. so my base that built no mortars or cannons would be relatively extreme. This technique can cover a huge range of bases because there are a ton of defenses that can be omitted in different combinations.
7. build most or all defenses but leave them at level 1 (this is not a very effective technique but I've seen it at least 3 times)
8. defenseless + teslas/traps/walls + more defenses
9. defenseless + teslas/traps/walls
10. defenseless
11. omitting the least used offense to save war weight (this is sort of a different dimension; can be done in parallel with other techniques; an example can be my th11 that never unlocked pekka, but has everything else)
12. omitting a medium amount of offense (such as my th11 with no dark barracks)
13. omitting / only leveling up a tiny number of troops (such as GOBS ONLY or the many mass drag only accounts)
14. the above, plus omitting one or more heroes
15. omitting most troops and keeping defense perfectly balanced with offense (maybe combines 8 with 12 or 13) (this is what our fabulous martian friends do in different ways)

So you're saying that for you, 5-13 count as extreme. OK, that's your opinion. How about you, lMACl? Where does extreme start to you?

Little doctor all of that is just semantics.

But here goes:
0. Offense first to functional then balanced, then max. I call this natural war path. (Everything is engineered according to you so...)
2. And 3. Are out of order. #3 0.5 max and park is still in order weighting in a war lineup. #2 probably isnt for a long time. #2, regardless of intent is a 1 th spread engineer.
4. Nothing 0.5 about this. A th8 weight th10 (assuming engineered not rushed) is a 2 th spread engineer. He's trying to match 8s for defense but attack 10s (if he's skilled). Calling this 0.5 is misleading. I think serious engineering starts here. (Since you harped on extreme). Significant thought goes into defense weight, will never sit at max th weight after ~th7.
5. 8.11 and 9.11 are 3 th spread engineers.

6-15 are abominations and destroying war matching for new players.

This is whole lot of noise to try to make 8.11 look like mid range engineers.

i think the easy no judgment way to identify engineering level is something like your terminology. 8.11 must weigh near max th8 (otherwise its a 7.11). Or put another way, its a 11.-3. It has th11 offenses and weights vs max 3 ths down. No noise about this troop or that defense; just how exploitive of the mm algorithm is it designed to be. There isnt really a point to even discussing the actual th anymore. Does it have a gw? It's an 11. A troop level at 11? It's an 11. Troop space maxed for th? Its that th level.

So, i hate matching vs 11.-3 because we bring no 11s. As such, we are automagically giving up the only base defenses that really matter. It ruins war for natural war path clans and we shouldn't have to fight them.

But I think the even more exploitive bases are a larger problem. We see 11.-5 (mid 30s weight). Those bases don't just wreck war for us, they wreck war for new players th5-7.

Perhaps I'm viewing your posts unfairly but most seem oriented towards justifying extreme engineering as un harmful to the war game ecosystem. It is and I simply don't understand how you can't see that.

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Little doctor all of that is just semantics.

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The forum, yes. It is all just words and the meaning of words.

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

0. Offense first to functional then balanced, then max. I call this natural war path. (Everything is engineered according to you so...)

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Not everything is engineered. Bases that have all of the offense and defense for their TH level at least unlocked are not engineered. The normal non-engineered build progression for TH9, for example, is to drop all the new defenses including both xbows on day 1.

I agree that engineering is the new normal for war weight aware folks.

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Perhaps I'm viewing your posts unfairly but most seem oriented towards justifying extreme engineering as un harmful to the war game ecosystem. It is and I simply don't understand how you can't see that.

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What you call extreme engineering and I call moderate engineering is not very harmful to the war game ecosystem. My clan does it and we win approximately 3 out of 4 wars, one more than the average. It's easy to implement in your own bases and thus easy to compete with. As with everything, when taken to an extreme it can cause people to complain; snip attacks once complained about an "engineered" clan that was about half .5, which you say doesn't even count as engineering.

Of course I justify engineering in general: this is a strategy game, and one of the many ways to enjoy it is to make strategically optimal choices for your bases. If you make non-optimal choices with your base development, expect non-optimal results. It's like, in civilization, if you don't build a bunch of scouts right away to find the best spots for new cities, but just send your settlers out blindly, of course they'll blunder into barbarians or end up in bad locations.

Where the matchmaker falls short is in allowing unwinnable matchups. What constitutes unwinnable is hotly debated, obviously. Mismatch can be quantitative (the other side has more bases with high defense and/or high offense) and/or qualitative (the other side has higher leveled defense and/or higher leveled offense than your entire clan). Quantitative offense advantage is usually not unwinnable, which is good because that's the hardest to prevent. Both kinds could be prevented, though, with sanity checking, at the cost of longer war searches (which I think most people agree would be worth it).

Whether or not 8.11 or 9.11 gives qualitative advantage depends on the makeup of the rest of their clan and the enemy clan. It is best at giving a quantitative offense advantage: one extra high level attack, in a base that has some hope of defending against the base that it pulls into the war. (Both 8.11s and 9.11s tend to draw early to rushed to mid TH10s, depending on things like how high and wide the offense is and whether defenses have been upgraded to max for TH11.)

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

1. omitting most troops and keeping defense perfectly balanced with offense (maybe combines 8 with 12 or 13) (this is what our fabulous martian friends do in different ways)

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Aside from being a gross simplifications of what 6M does, I wouldn't call their bases "balanced" by any stretch of the imagination.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

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Aside from being a gross simplifications of what 6M does, I wouldn't call their bases "balanced" by any stretch of the imagination.

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Most wouldnt. Another example would be a th11 with max bowlers, healers, jump, haste, and rage. For defense all defenses put down and upgraded to a th8 level or level 1 if th8 doesnt have it, ie xbows and max hidden defenses. This example in theory would be balanced to the mm.
6m has done similar by omiting certain defenses entirely.

On a side note, our current matchup is against a clan with a 10.5 at the top, & what I guess you'd call a 9.11 with maxed TH9 defense with a warden & most TH10 troops, along with a 7.11. Really low defenses with valks & bowlers maxed. Only the top guy has a level 7 cc. It's not really a horrible mismatch. They have an advantage, but their record says they can't 3 star max TH10s & we have two at the top.

I'm guessing the engineered accounts are as much an attempt to cover for some unskilled clanmates without pulling full TH11s, as much as anything.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

Most wouldnt. Another example would be a th11 with max bowlers, healers, jump, haste, and rage. For defense all defenses put down and upgraded to a th8 level or level 1 if th8 doesnt have it, ie xbows and max hidden defenses. This example in theory would be balanced to the mm.
6m has done similar by omiting certain defenses entirely.

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Want to throw something out here, is having the ability to only do one attack considered balanced? I would say a balanced account/attacker has access to multiple styles of attacks. So only specializing in one attack would make the account lopsided and not balanced. Further the only way an attacker can be successfully lopsided is by brute forcing attacks which only works on bases 1 of 2 town hall levels below their offense.

A player can technically attack every base with the same troop build, but that kind of paints them into a corner and really hurts them if they have to hit a base that is anti-attacker troop build. They would have to dip way down to get success every time.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

Want to throw something out here, is having the ability to only do one attack considered balanced? I would say a balanced account/attacker has access to multiple styles of attacks. So only specializing in one attack would make the account lopsided and not balanced. Further the only way you can be successfully lopsided is by brute forcing attacks which only works on bases 1 of 2 town hall levels below your offense.

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You bring up a very good point by having only one attack strategy you would have to give up a few upgrades on defense to have equal weight on offense and defense. This is where i get the idea of a fighter cutting weight at the weigh in but come fight time they weigh 10-15 lbs heavier. A maxer on the other hand doesnt cut weight but ends up fighting the other guy who did. Who has the advantage? The one who weighs 10-15 lbs heavier.
So what do you do if you only have one attack strategy and the other side has a base to defend? That is the purpose of a team. If another clanmate specializes in a different attack then team work will win.
I get people might say its manipulating the mm but shouldnt the team that works better together have some advantage over the clan who doesnt? Teamwork isnt measureable just like attack skill isnt.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

You bring up a very good point by having only one attack strategy you would have to give up a few upgrades on defense to have equal weight on offense and defense. This is where i get the idea of a fighter cutting weight at the weigh in but come fight time they weigh 10-15 lbs heavier. A maxer on the other hand doesnt cut weight but ends up fighting the other guy who did. Who has the advantage? The one who weighs 10-15 lbs heavier.
So what do you do if you only have one attack strategy and the other side has a base to defend? That is the purpose of a team. If another clanmate specializes in a different attack then team work will win.
I get people might say its manipulating the mm but shouldnt the team that works better together have some advantage over the clan who doesnt? Teamwork isnt measureable just like attack skill isnt.

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I had that thought, but now we are no longer talking about an account being balanced on its own. Rather it's balanced in a specific setting or clan structure. That means outside of that setting, it's no longer balanced. What balance actually means is indeed a slippery subject.

In my home clan, we have a very permanent member who has really advanced defenses, but his offense and heroes are lacking. I balanced it out by making an account that has offense on par with his defense and defense on par with his offense levels. From somebody looking in from the outside, one of those accounts would look engineered and the other rushed. But, together the balance each other out.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

I had that thought, but now we are no longer talking about an account being balanced on its own. Rather it's balanced in a specific setting or clan structure. That means outside of that setting, it's no longer balanced. What balance actually means is indeed a slippery subject.

In my home clan, we have a very permanent member who has really advanced defenses, but his offense and heroes are lacking. I balanced it out by making an account that has offense on par with his defense and defense on par with his offense levels. From somebody looking in from the outside, one of those accounts would look engineered and the other rushed. But, together the balance each other out.

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Kind of but if go with SC saying weight is 50% defense 50% offense like they said in sept 16 then a single village could have 1 max war army, say an air attack, and and maybe all defenses but at the previous th level. Ie th11 with all 7 cannons for th11 but only level 13 max th 10 level however a th10 has only 6 cannons.
That in my eyes is a balanced base somewhere at the mid point of a th11. Now if there was another th11 with 1 war army, say a ground attack and the same amount of defense you would the get into a clan working together. Both by them selves are balanced but together make a great combo.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

Kind of but if go with SC saying weight is 50% defense 50% offense like they said in sept 16 then a single village could have 1 max war army, say an air attack, and and maybe all defenses but at the previous th level. Ie th11 with all 7 cannons for th11 but only level 13 max th 10 level however a th10 has only 6 cannons.
That in my eyes is a balanced base somewhere at the mid point of a th11. Now if there was another th11 with 1 war army, say a ground attack and the same amount of defense you would the get into a clan working together. Both by them selves are balanced but together make a great combo.

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I'm not sure you can have it both ways.

But, one thing I have also mulled around is "counter balancing" by attack skill. Some players can do more with less. For instance, I have a fairly high success rare against th9's (all lvl's of development) with my th9 that has lvl1 dark troops and 5/5 heroes. So my balance line may be different in that If I had a maxed th9 offense I would be lopsided compared to somebody who needs th10 offense to 3 star that same th9. He may appear engineered, but in fact his lopsided offense is balanced by his lack of proficiency at attacking.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

Most wouldnt. Another example would be a th11 with max bowlers, healers, jump, haste, and rage. For defense all defenses put down and upgraded to a th8 level or level 1 if th8 doesnt have it, ie xbows and max hidden defenses. This example in theory would be balanced to the mm.
6m has done similar by omiting certain defenses entirely.

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That's not what SC has previously meant by balanced and I doubt many players would think that's balanced.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

On a side note, our current matchup is against a clan with a 10.5 at the top, & what I guess you'd call a 9.11 with maxed TH9 defense with a warden & most TH10 troops, along with a 7.11. Really low defenses with valks & bowlers maxed. Only the top guy has a level 7 cc. It's not really a horrible mismatch. They have an advantage, but their record says they can't 3 star max TH10s & we have two at the top.

I'm guessing the engineered accounts are as much an attempt to cover for some unskilled clanmates without pulling full TH11s, as much as anything.

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Absolutely the 8.11s are cover for poor attacking clanmates. But they do so at the expense of the balanced clans war matchup.

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Originally Posted by MrJackrabbit

Kind of but if go with SC saying weight is 50% defense 50% offense like they said in sept 16 then a single village could have 1 max war army, say an air attack, and and maybe all defenses but at the previous th level. Ie th11 with all 7 cannons for th11 but only level 13 max th 10 level however a th10 has only 6 cannons.
That in my eyes is a balanced base somewhere at the mid point of a th11. Now if there was another th11 with 1 war army, say a ground attack and the same amount of defense you would the get into a clan working together. Both by them selves are balanced but together make a great combo.

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Still waiting for they reference to a weight document for 50/50. Was never so.

Neither of those bases have balanced offense and defense. You keep making up this wacky idea of balance as sort of halfway engineered. I can't see that it has any basis in easy SC calls balanced.

First thanks for the detailed reply. Though I wish you'd have discussed the th spread nomenclature.

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Not everything is engineered. Bases that have all of the offense and defense for their TH level at least unlocked are not engineered. The normal non-engineered build progression for TH9, for example, is to drop all the new defenses including both xbows on day 1.

I agree that engineering is the new normal for war weight aware folks.

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Ok, I get what you mean by engineering now. I think it would be less provocative to say war weight aware. Engineering has forced all serious war players to be weight aware, even if they don't take advantage of that knowledge or want to play the game that way.

But I think there is a large difference in how much the MM is exploited by a (to continue my prior nomenclature) 0 th spread engineer. A th9 0 spread engineer could be early on the path to max, could be headed to parked 0.5, or headed to 9.11. We don't know. But they'll match against another th9. If the max a troop and camps and the spell factory and heroes before dropping any defenses, they are exploiting their war weight. Yes, that's engineering. But within the th level, they are gaining modest advantage and, more importantly, offer only minimal opportunity to roster engineer to automatic victory.

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What you call extreme engineering and I call moderate engineering is not very harmful to the war game ecosystem.

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Again, I disagree profoundly. I think it is very disruptive to the th7-8 war experience.

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My clan does it and we win approximately 3 out of 4 wars, one more than the average. It's easy to implement in your own bases and thus easy to compete with. As with everything, when taken to an extreme it can cause people to complain; <snip>

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Whether you win or lose isn't really the point, in an idealized match, you (our roster engineered opponent) start the match up however many th11 attacks you have vs our 0 th11 attacks. Out of the gate, we need you to choke quite a few attacks on our early th10s before we have a chance. It is very common for us to put up 1 or 2 stars shy of perfect on clans like I think yours sounds like. But usually you've got a max th11 up top. Unless your base design is weak, that's a very challenging 2 star. Slip once vs your max th10s and we've lost. Meanwhile, you gave 4-8 th11 max troop attacks vs our lonely max th10 and early th10s. That's multiple swings at all our 10s. Sometimes you open the door by choking on our max th10 (hard to do but it happens).

Basically, at match, we are at an immediate disadvantage because we don't play the game your way. Meanwhile, lots of clans who do play our war would have a fun war playing us. However, they are also stuck playing an auto-loss war because of your engineering.

We seem to have gone from engineering is a legitimate way to play you maxing isnt and you need to engineer to compete.

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Where the matchmaker falls short is in allowing unwinnable matchups. What constitutes unwinnable is hotly debated, obviously. Mismatch can be quantitative (the other side has more bases with high defense and/or high offense) and/or qualitative (the other side has higher leveled defense and/or higher leveled offense than your entire clan). Quantitative offense advantage is usually not unwinnable, which is good because that's the hardest to prevent. Both kinds could be prevented, though, with sanity checking, at the cost of longer war searches (which I think most people agree would be worth it).

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Most engineering clans know they can't win on just offense. So they have a max th11 and a max th10 parked up top to bounce 1-3 stars. In that scenario, the war is absolutely unwinnable. Th11 offense is a massive advantage. It is telling to me that most 9.11 attacks are not well-executed but more spamaloon.

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Whether or not 8.11 or 9.11 gives qualitative advantage depends on the makeup of the rest of their clan and the enemy clan. It is best at giving a quantitative offense advantage: one extra high level attack, in a base that has some hope of defending against the base that it pulls into the war. (Both 8.11s and 9.11s tend to draw early to rushed to mid TH10s, depending on things like how high and wide the offense is and whether defenses have been upgraded to max for TH11.)

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the th11s we often see are much lower weight than matching early to mid th10s. They are matching vs th8s and early th9s. If they are weighted to match early th10s, they are definitely not 8.11s.

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

I'm not sure you can have it both ways.

But, one thing I have also mulled around is "counter balancing" by attack skill. Some players can do more with less. For instance, I have a fairly high success rare against th9's (all lvl's of development) with my th9 that has lvl1 dark troops and 5/5 heroes. So my balance line may be different in that If I had a maxed th9 offense I would be lopsided compared to somebody who needs th10 offense to 3 star that same th9. He may appear engineered, but in fact his lopsided offense is balanced by his lack of proficiency at attacking.

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This is what i believe 6m does. If a maxed th is equal weight offense and defense then neglecting certain offense would need equal amount of defense neglected. We do something similar and get few engineered bases. I believe 6m perfected it.
As for your idea of counter balacing poor attack skill i had that thought also. It makes a low offense weight anchor or as in on of my clans they attack lower while one of mine attack higher. This is at the th10 level. Were are kind of taking a break since a strong co left and I have moved up to the th11 game.

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Absolutely the 8.11s are cover for poor attacking clanmates. But they do so at the expense of the balanced clans war matchup.

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Balance is very subjective. What you're saying is you have an issue with people making up for shortcomings of clan mates and instead should just leave them out of wars if they are a detriment so that others can get their idea of a balanced match-up.

Not everyone has the time/skills to learn, does that mean all those friends and family clans that contain deficient attackers aren't allowed to try something outside the realms of what others consider the norm to even up the odds?

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Originally Posted by JKL2207

Balance is very subjective. What you're saying is you have an issue with people making up for shortcomings of clan mates and instead should just leave them out of wars if they are a detriment so that others can get their idea of a balanced match-up.

Not everyone has the time/skills to learn, does that mean all those friends and family clans that contain deficient attackers aren't allowed to try something outside the realms of what others consider the norm to even up the odds?

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Not at all! Imo one of the worst things about engineering is that players organically introduced to the game get totally burned by engineered matchups when they reach th7 or th8 by matching against ridiculously engineered th11s. I think it is very harmful to war and the bill in terms of player participation is already coming due.

But if you have a max th11 up top and 4 th11s parked at the very bottom, you aren't making up for your little brother anymore. You are exploiting your knowledge of the matchmaker to guarantee a perfect every war. Frankly, I don't even understand the appeal.

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Not at all! Imo one of the worst things about engineering is that players organically introduced to the game get totally burned by engineered matchups when they reach th7 or th8 by matching against ridiculously engineered th11s. I think it is very harmful to war and the bill in terms of player participation is already coming due.

But if you have a max th11 up top and 4 th11s parked at the very bottom, you aren't making up for your little brother anymore. You are exploiting your knowledge of the matchmaker to guarantee a perfect every war. Frankly, I don't even understand the appeal.

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You're using an extreme example here, how about having two badly rushed TH11s up top and have one or two 9.11/8.11 to cover? That would be a more realistic example for a casual clan, I don't know what kind of casuals have a maxed TH11, (I don't classify heavy farmers as casuals either.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKL2207

You're using an extreme example here, how about having two badly rushed TH11s up top and have one or two 9.11/8.11 to cover? That would be a more realistic example for a casual clan, I don't know what kind of casuals have a maxed TH11, (I don't classify heavy farmers as casuals either.)

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A farming attack versus a generic farm box base or ring base is entirely different than a war attack on a strong anti-3⭐️ Base that is assymetrical. So I would say a casual player could include a heavy farmer but those players are often useless in a war clan because they use 2 star attack strategies.

I have a th8.75 (1 Xbow) with max troops and 23/20 heroes, a baby th10 (half maxed troops) and 28/25 heroes and a full out engineered th11 (6 th9 archer towers, 1 lvl 5 Xbow, 1 th8 cannon and 1 lvl 2 bomb tower with lvl 8 tesla) with almost all max troops 23/22/11 heroes.

Speaking from experience on both sides of this debate I have to agree with Scar. In a fair and balanced war clan that is bringing 4-5 th8, 5-10 th9 and 4-5 th10s that are not rushed and have equal weighted troops to defenses built and upgraded the matchup to the full out engineered or the new th7.11 to th9.11 engineered strategy takes something away from the war experience. A single max th11 troop and hero combo that can attack up to take out a th10 when the other clan has no th11 bases with th11 defenses is taking away from the fairness (chance of winning) and enjoyment for the more balanced base builders and war clans.

I built my th11 base with the intention of balancing out rushed clan members bases that were th9-10 but didn't have the attack skill. What it has evolved into is that I now take out the top 2 bases and as scar says 'unless someone chokes' we get a lot of wins because other clans just fold after they see their top done

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DocSky78

A farming attack versus a generic farm box base or ring base is entirely different than a war attack on a strong anti-3⭐️ Base that is assymetrical. So I would say a casual player could include a heavy farmer but those players are often useless in a war clan because they use 2 star attack strategies.

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I wasn't going to lump heavy farmer with casual player due to activity and seriousness in the game, a heavy farmer could spend the time to re-calibrate since they are used to spending the time and effort to farm. But yes you are correct a heavy farmer that doesn't like to war is just as much a detriment due to lack of offensive skill set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DocSky78

I have a th8.75 (1 Xbow) with max troops and 23/20 heroes, a baby th10 (half maxed troops) and 28/25 heroes and a full out engineered th11 (6 th9 archer towers, 1 lvl 5 Xbow, 1 th8 cannon and 1 lvl 2 bomb tower with lvl 8 tesla) with almost all max troops 23/22/11 heroes.

Speaking from experience on both sides of this debate I have to agree with Scar. In a fair and balanced war clan that is bringing 4-5 th8, 5-10 th9 and 4-5 th10s that are not rushed and have equal weighted troops to defenses built and upgraded the matchup to the full out engineered or the new th7.11 to th9.11 engineered strategy takes something away from the war experience. A single max th11 troop and hero combo that can attack up to take out a th10 when the other clan has no th11 bases with th11 defenses is taking away from the fairness (chance of winning) and enjoyment for the more balanced base builders and war clans.

I built my th11 base with the intention of balancing out rushed clan members bases that were th9-10 but didn't have the attack skill. What it has evolved into is that I now take out the top 2 bases and as scar says 'unless someone chokes' we get a lot of wins because other clans just fold after they see their top done

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I started engineering an account to help offset two badly rushed TH10s (infernos and xbows built, low level walls, heroes in single digits and barely any maxed war troops) they would regularly fail on TH9s back before TH11s were around. This is after training them up failed repeatedly, due to their commitment and skill.

But as friends and family playing a game do you drop those guys because they are a detriment? If engineering is stifled then you have to.

So whilst I can appreciate OP's PoV where he says his clan's enjoyment of war is ruined by extreme engineering, the other spectrum is that engineering can also be an outlet for other casuals to be included in wars.

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

[/LIST]
Aside from being a gross simplifications of what 6M does, I wouldn't call their bases "balanced" by any stretch of the imagination.

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The kind of war weight balance that I was referring to was having a defense weight and an offense weight that are about the same. So in other words, if you have the defense weight of a TH6 and the offense weight of a TH6, but have TH11 troops for your one attack, that is the kind of war weight balance 6M is shooting for, with at least some accounts.

In practical terms it is probably more strategically optimal to have the war weight of a TH7 and yet have selective defense sufficient to defeat TH7. For example, 3 airdef and 5 archer towers, upgraded to TH9 levels, with TH9 traps, but no splash or cannons, should be able to defeat TH7 mass drags while weighing like a TH7. Th8 gowipe or hogs would easily 3 this base, which would count as a strategic success.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

Want to throw something out here, is having the ability to only do one attack considered balanced? I would say a balanced account/attacker has access to multiple styles of attacks.

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Balance is an interesting topic because it can mean so many different things. One definition is the one I gave above, where the offense and defense war weight are about equal. Another is yours. Another is to say that offense is balanced with defense when that offense is sufficient to 3 star that defense, which usually means same TH level, but not when you get to the end game: infernos are so powerful that you often need TH11 troops and heroes to 3 star TH10s, so by this definition a 9.11 is balanced (it can potentially 3 star the TH10 it draws into the war, and the TH10 can potentially 3 star the 9.11 due to the absence of infernos.)

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Absolutely the 8.11s are cover for poor attacking clanmates.

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It's certainly true in my clan. There are people we will never kick because they have been with us for years, even though they suck at attacking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

First thanks for the detailed reply. Though I wish you'd have discussed the th spread nomenclature.

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8.11 and 9.11 each describe a spectrum of bases. At the low end, an 8.11 has TH8 defense and TH11 offense; at the high end, an 8.11 is like a "super 8.5" with all of the defense and all of the offense, but no xbows, infernos or eagle (so it has added all the new TH9, Th10 and TH11 defenses and leveled them up to TH11 max). A low end 8.11 will mirror a TH9 but will draw a 9.5 or rushed 10 into war because of its high offense. A 9.11 is the same, except that it has xbows, so on the low end it will mirror a high TH9 or a 9.5 and on the high end will have the weight of a 9.5, but in both cases will likely draw a rushed 10 or mid 10 into war. I had a base that was an 8.11 for a long time, and then early this year I added xbows and leveled them up, turning it into a 9.11. Usually these bases are in the process of moving from low end to high end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

But I think there is a large difference in how much the MM is exploited by a (to continue my prior nomenclature) 0 th spread engineer.

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Yes, I agree that there are radical differences in the impact of different kinds and quantities of engineering. A single 9.11 in a clan with a bunch of TH11s is unlikely to make a big difference. A single 9.11 in a clan full of TH7s would have a huge impact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Again, I disagree profoundly. I think it is very disruptive to the th7-8 war experience.

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I think you need to have much lower weight in order to affect TH7-8 clans. Defenseless TH11 tend to draw TH7-8, I think, so a defenseless TH11 in a clan full of TH7-8 has a huge impact. That's basically why I think they are OP. It would be less of a big deal if a full spectrum offense nodef TH11 (max heroes, etc.) drew a TH10 and a limited offense nodef TH11 drew a TH9. If that were the case then a single defenseless base would provide an advantage, but not an insurmountable one. Then you have to come up with how to handle clans that have ten of them... I am not at all sure how to properly handle large scale roster engineering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Whether you win or lose isn't really the point, in an idealized match, you (our roster engineered opponent) start the match up however many th11 attacks you have vs our 0 th11 attacks. Out of the gate, we need you to choke quite a few attacks on our early th10s before we have a chance. It is very common for us to put up 1 or 2 stars shy of perfect on clans like I think yours sounds like. But usually you've got a max th11 up top. Unless your base design is weak, that's a very challenging 2 star. Slip once vs your max th10s and we've lost. Meanwhile, you gave 4-8 th11 max troop attacks vs our lonely max th10 and early th10s. That's multiple swings at all our 10s. Sometimes you open the door by choking on our max th10 (hard to do but it happens).

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Roster engineering is very hard to solve. Even aside from engineered bases, a clan with 20 max TH11 and 10 TH3 is likely to beat any opponent it draws.

But those situations are rare. Most of the time, if we have a full TH11 up top, you likely have one also, so what our 9.11 gives is an extra couple chances to get a higher % on your TH11 than you have on our TH11. Against a CWL clan that would be an insignificant advantage; they'd 2 star our TH11 with a TH10 and 3 star everyone else, and then everyone with remaining attacks would hammer our TH11 to increase the %. We'd attempt to do the same, and we'd have the extra 2 TH11 attacks to do it with, but because we're not as good at attacking we'd probably fail to 3 star all their 9s or something, lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

the th11s we often see are much lower weight than matching early to mid th10s. They are matching vs th8s and early th9s. If they are weighted to match early th10s, they are definitely not 8.11s.

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It's important to remember that the mirror of an offensively lopsided base is not the base that it likely draws into war, because the war map is sorted by defense. If an enemy TH11 mirrors a TH8, it just means that it has the defensive war weight of a TH8; when you average in the offense war weight, it probably draws a TH9 or TH10.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKL2207

So whilst I can appreciate OP's PoV where he says his clan's enjoyment of war is ruined by extreme engineering, the other spectrum is that engineering can also be an outlet for other casuals to be included in wars.

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Mild engineering is definitely casual friendly, not only indirectly but also directly. One of the benefits of an offense advantage is that you don't have to spend a ton of time planning attacks. You have more margin for failure. We have multiple folks who just went 9.5 and are suddenly much more successful at 3 starring TH9s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKL2207

Balance is very subjective. What you're saying is you have an issue with people making up for shortcomings of clan mates and instead should just leave them out of wars if they are a detriment so that others can get their idea of a balanced match-up.

Not everyone has the time/skills to learn, does that mean all those friends and family clans that contain deficient attackers aren't allowed to try something outside the realms of what others consider the norm to even up the odds?

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Every base has two attacks. You can build balanced bases to cover for the less skilled members, but if you have to resort to engineering, you aren't "evening up the odds". If you're in a clan with mediocre attackers, you should expect mediocre results.

So a fresh TH8 with max TH7 defenses decides to max his offense first is an engineered account. By the time the whining is done about this they will probably require any new Town Hall to be maxed defenses or call them engineered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingAroth

So a fresh TH8 with max TH7 defenses decides to max his offense first is an engineered account. By the time the whining is done about this they will probably require any new Town Hall to be maxed defenses or call them engineered.

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You can't win, currently you are either engineered or engineered. Offense greater then defense, they call you lopsided and engineered. Defense greater then offense, they call you lopsided and engineered. The only thing you can potentially do is be balanced. But, we don't know what balanced actually is. I'm sure balanced is different for every player and clan out there. Good Luck finding your balance!

A th10 with 15/15 heroes is as lopsided as a 76K base with th11 offense. Dont include rushers in war.

About the th11s with lvl10 heroes: They are the most useless thing in the game. All they can do is 3 star a th9 that will get 3 stared anyway and adds up to your offense rating that results in a mismatch on top in many cases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SuperStorm103

You can't win, currently you are either engineered or engineered. Offense greater then defense, they call you lopsided and engineered. Defense greater then offense, they call you lopsided and engineered. The only thing you can potentially do is be balanced. But, we don't know what balanced actually is. I'm sure balanced is different for every player and clan out there. Good Luck finding your balance!

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I am getting a complex around being called an engineer. I will now refer to my base as optimized.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

I am getting a complex around being called an engineer. I will now refer to my base as optimized.

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haha, it seems to be getting worse, even people that don't know what engineering is are getting called engineers. Even the guy that just completes the tutorial and has 1 cannon will be called an engineer. At least with optimize you will have a year or two before everybody is calling everybody an optimizer.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

I am getting a complex around being called an engineer. I will now refer to my base as optimized.

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Maybe we should all adapt the term optimized in order to jump on the anti-engineer bandwagon. Optimize our bases with everything from .5 to defenseless -- not for any war weight advantage, no sir, but to fight those filthy engineers.

Optimize your lineup to be half .5 or better and those filthy engineers will give you a lot less trouble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KingAroth

So a fresh TH8 with max TH7 defenses decides to max his offense first is an engineered account. By the time the whining is done about this they will probably require any new Town Hall to be maxed defenses or call them engineered.

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Call it whatever you want, but he's actually a liability in MM.

If you want to call pointing out serious problems with a MM that is being exploited to the point where wars feel like a waste of time, "whining", you're just one more mud slinger in the thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

I am getting a complex around being called an engineer. I will now refer to my base as optimized.

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Fithy optimizers are ruining clan wars. Atleast you got 2 hrs out of the new term.:smirk:

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Originally Posted by Clark11308

Fithy optimizers are ruining clan wars. Atleast you got 2 hrs out of the new term.:smirk:

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At least optimizers aren't cheaters, unlike those filthy engineers! Here was a nice little message from our last opponent. Apparently we didn't drop enough defenses to satisfy their moral criteria. :cool:

Attachment 204207

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

Every base has two attacks. You can build balanced bases to cover for the less skilled members, but if you have to resort to engineering, you aren't "evening up the odds".

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So using the scenario that I posted earlier:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKL2207

I started engineering an account to help offset two badly rushed TH10s (infernos and xbows built, low level walls, heroes in single digits and barely any maxed war troops) they would regularly fail on TH9s back before TH11s were around. This is after training them up failed repeatedly, due to their commitment and skill.

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Under your assertion that you can build balanced bases to cover:

A. Build 2 TH10s to cover for two badly rushed TH10s and have the clan draw in 4 TH10s in the process.

Or

B. Just engineer one base to TH10 offence to cover the two TH10s that the two rushed TH10s would usually draw.


Or

C. I could leave them out like any other clan with just "balanced" bases would leave out their liabilities.


Tell me which option would a rational person take?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChiefTuk

If you're in a clan with mediocre attackers, you should expect mediocre results.

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So you're saying people can't try different things to offset their limitations? Sounds rather elitist to me. Are we trying to include a more diverse crowd or just trying to include only good attackers in war now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by posthoc

At least optimizers aren't cheaters, unlike those filthy engineers! Here was a nice little message from our last opponent. Apparently we didn't drop enough defenses to satisfy their moral criteria. :cool:

Attachment 204207

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Lol, dude is missing an AD mortar and wiz tower......maybe a few others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKL2207

So using the scenario that I posted earlier:

<snip>


So you're saying people can't try different things to offset their limitations? Sounds rather elitist to me. Are we trying to include a more diverse crowd or just trying to include only good attackers in war now?

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Let me fix that for you:

"So you're saying people can't try different things WIN EVERY WAR? Sounds rather competitive to me. Are we trying to guarantee wins to unskilled players or just trying to have the most skilled clan win?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Let me fix that for you:

"So you're saying people can't try different things WIN EVERY WAR? Sounds rather competitive to me. Are we trying to guarantee wins to unskilled players or just trying to have the most skilled clan win?"

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How does having a TH10 account that covers for the deficiency of 2 other TH10s equate to winning every war?

Again, I'm not speaking about extreme engineering which no doubt exists which seems to be the basis of your gripe, I am speaking from a casual war point of view.

For the record engineering my account to TH10 did not guarantee wins since it was purpose built to hit TH10s that the two rushed TH10s bases were drawing in but couldn't hit. The opponents still had 4 viable attacks to take down our rushed TH10s at top whilst we had 2 (my engineered 10). We went from losing almost every war to winning about 50% of the time, since our rushed TH10s were also 3 starred fairly regularly, how does that equate to WIN EVERY WAR?.

Also to add to your last two comments:

"Are we trying to guarantee wins to unskilled players or just trying to have the most skilled clan win?"

So clearly by that statement you don't want casual clans to have a chance of winning, you want keep them down by all means necessary just to fuel your ideals of what constitutes fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Let me fix that for you:

"So you're saying people can't try different things WIN EVERY WAR? Sounds rather competitive to me. Are we trying to guarantee wins to unskilled players or just trying to have the most skilled clan win?"

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Just seemed like a misunderstanding, nothing more. I see JKL's point to his own description, as I do the same on lower accounts because they are inept and my clan is fairly new and want members for more xp. So it's not as easy to just sit people, or take the fun away from them as well. He even said drawing the same amount of th10's as well, so really there seems to be zero advantage and isn't aiming to fool the MMA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKL2207

So using the scenario that I posted earlier:



Under your assertion that you can build balanced bases to cover:

A. Build 2 TH10s to cover for two badly rushed TH10s and have the clan draw in 4 TH10s in the process.

Or

B. Just engineer one base to TH10 offence to cover the two TH10s that the two rushed TH10s would usually draw.


Or

C. I could leave them out like any other clan with just "balanced" bases would leave out their liabilities.


Tell me which option would a rational person take?




So you're saying people can't try different things to offset their limitations? Sounds rather elitist to me. Are we trying to include a more diverse crowd or just trying to include only good attackers in war now?

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A rational person would either live with the fact that they have a TH10 that isn't very strong or they would war without him. Dropping a lot of money or several months time to engineer a TH10 just so you can cover attacks for a rushed TH10 isn't rational at all. The rushed 10 should be able to max out offense a lot faster than a brand new account can, and if he doesn't want to take the effort to do that, then maybe he shouldn't be warring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

A rational person would either live with the fact that they have a TH10 that isn't very strong or they would war without him. Dropping a lot of money or several months time to engineer a TH10 just so you can cover attacks for a rushed TH10 isn't rational at all. The rushed 10 should be able to max out offense a lot faster than a brand new account can, and if he doesn't want to take the effort to do that, then maybe he shouldn't be warring.

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"Should" is a wonderful word, isn't it?

Maybe everyone should play the game my way. Then there would be less conflict.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

"Should" is a wonderful word, isn't it?

Maybe everyone should play the game my way. Then there would be less conflict.

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Anyone can play the game any way they want to play. They just might have trouble finding a clan that lets them war.

Nobody is proposing that people can't skip defenses when they build their bases. They are just proposing that people don't get a war advantage from doing it. If that is truly the way you want to play, you will still be able to do that, regardless of what happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

Anyone can play the game any way they want to play. They just might have trouble finding a clan that lets them war.

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You're proposing that people who suck at the game not be allowed to war. That's not letting them play the game any way they want to play.

It's not an uncommon thing to do. Most of my accounts were made to shore up weaknesses in the clan roster. we have a th10 approaching max defense with sub 15/15 heroes and not much th10 army to show for it. I have an account that is slightly higher then a th9 (th9 defenses leveled to th10) but has maxed th10 offense. I have a lot of lower offense over defense accounts (none defenseless) that are mostly .5's. I make do with lower weight defense and offense troops on them to recover a little of the wasted weight on some of the other villages in our clan.

In war, the sub 15/15 th10 with th9 offense hits the top 9's while I use the engineered 10 to help with the top load. There may be some engineered looking bases in our clan, but I assure you with the "elite attackers" any advantage is mostly negated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

You're proposing that people who suck at the game not be allowed to war. That's not letting them play the game any way they want to play.

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They are allowed to war. What are you reading?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

They are allowed to war. What are you reading?

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When you said:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

and if he doesn't want to take the effort to do that, then maybe he shouldn't be warring.

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It's fine when a clan chooses to kick poor performers, or to not let them war, but these things don't work for every clan. Because people below a certain skill level rate their own skill level as higher than it is (they don't have enough skill to accurately rate themselves) they often don't opt out on their own.

It doesn't take that long to put together an engineered base that can compensate for a bad TH10: less than six months, and leveling it up is fun because playing the game is fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

When you said:



It's fine when a clan chooses to kick poor performers, or to not let them war, but these things don't work for every clan. Because people below a certain skill level rate their own skill level as higher than it is (they don't have enough skill to accurately rate themselves) they often don't opt out on their own.

It doesn't take that long to put together an engineered base that can compensate for a bad TH10: less than six months, and leveling it up is fun because playing the game is fun.

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A competitive clan keeping you out of a war is in no way the same thing as not being allowed to war.

Same problem pretty even match up so number 1-5 Th9 same as us. Then our last five are th8-7 theirs are all th8-7 apart from number 8 who is th11 weak defence could easily be taken by our number 8 but maxed dragons and lighting so smashed our number 1&2 leaving their 1&2 to take 3 &4 so easy for them to get 30 stars nothing we can do about it. Isn't this cheating?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobgbob

Same problem pretty even match up so number 1-5 Th9 same as us. Then our last five are th8-7 theirs are all th8-7 apart from number 8 who is th11 weak defence could easily be taken by our number 8 but maxed dragons and lighting so smashed our number 1&2 leaving their 1&2 to take 3 &4 so easy for them to get 30 stars nothing we can do about it. Isn't this cheating?

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It is certainly unfair. Whenever you see a base like this, look at what it has offensively, and tailor all of your top bases to counter it. That's really all you can do. Surround your Air defense with high-HP buildings, spread out the base to make it hard to get a bunch of dragons to move forward together, and hope for the best, just as if you were designing a TH8 layout.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobgbob

Same problem pretty even match up so number 1-5 Th9 same as us. Then our last five are th8-7 theirs are all th8-7 apart from number 8 who is th11 weak defence could easily be taken by our number 8 but maxed dragons and lighting so smashed our number 1&2 leaving their 1&2 to take 3 &4 so easy for them to get 30 stars nothing we can do about it. Isn't this cheating?

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

It is certainly unfair. Whenever you see a base like this, look at what it has offensively, and tailor all of your top bases to counter it. That's really all you can do. Surround your Air defense with high-HP buildings, spread out the base to make it hard to get a bunch of dragons to move forward together, and hope for the best, just as if you were designing a TH8 layout.

---

Neither cheating nor unfair. Been a part of clan wars for quite a while.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobgbob

Same problem pretty even match up so number 1-5 Th9 same as us. Then our last five are th8-7 theirs are all th8-7 apart from number 8 who is th11 weak defence could easily be taken by our number 8 but maxed dragons and lighting so smashed our number 1&2 leaving their 1&2 to take 3 &4 so easy for them to get 30 stars nothing we can do about it. Isn't this cheating?

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It's not cheating or unfair. You just need one to match it, but you have deemed it unfair and cheating so you refuse to do it. It would be similar to deciding that bowlers in the cc at th9 give to much of an advantage so you aren't going to use them. Then accusing clans that do use them as doing something shady.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Neither cheating nor unfair. Been a part of clan wars for quite a while.

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No, it's clearly unfair. Supercell wouldn't be looking for a solution to the problem if there were no problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

No, it's clearly unfair. Supercell wouldn't be looking for a solution to the problem if there were no problem.

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Various definitions of unfair would say your statement is incorrect. SC is looking for a solution to better matchmaking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Various definitions of unfair would say your statement is incorrect. SC is looking for a solution to better matchmaking.

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It seems to me the matchmaker's job is to create fair matchups...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

It seems to me the matchmaker's job is to create fair matchups...

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And how does that make the way people build their bases unfair? The two things don't correlate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

And how does that make the way people build their bases unfair? The two things don't correlate.

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It makes the matchup described below unfair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobgbob

Same problem pretty even match up so number 1-5 Th9 same as us. Then our last five are th8-7 theirs are all th8-7 apart from number 8 who is th11 weak defence could easily be taken by our number 8 but maxed dragons and lighting so smashed our number 1&2 leaving their 1&2 to take 3 &4 so easy for them to get 30 stars nothing we can do about it. Isn't this cheating?

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

A competitive clan keeping you out of a war is in no way the same thing as not being allowed to war.

---

It doesn't sound like the clan in question is a competitive clan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

It doesn't sound like the clan in question is a competitive clan.

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Well, they aren't from the standpoint that they want to win a fair matchup, but they are from the standpoint that they still want to win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

Well, they aren't from the standpoint that they want to win a fair matchup, but they are from the standpoint that they still want to win.

---

I'm willing to broaden the definition of "competitive clan" to include every clan that wants to win. So you are saying that sucky attackers, rather than being prevented from warring, should just be prevented from warring in clans that want to win? Problem solved I guess?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

I'm willing to broaden the definition of "competitive clan" to include every clan that wants to win. So you are saying that sucky attackers, rather than being prevented from warring, should just be prevented from warring in clans that want to win? Problem solved I guess?

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That's just life for you. I'd love to play in the NBA, but they won't have me. That doesn't mean I can't go play basketball in a rec league.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

It makes the matchup described below unfair.

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I was unaware that SC said the way you build your base is unfair. Perhaps you could point me to where they said that?

They are not looking to end engineering. They have never said it's unfair. All they are looking to do is match engineers with other engineers. The 'problem' isn't the bases or the way they're built, it's the way the MM perceives said bases. There is nothing inherently 'unfair' about it. A match up being 'fair' or 'unfair', does not equate to it being 'unfair' in the way someone chooses to build their base. 'Unfair' would be if Clan A had access to building a engineered base, whilst Clan B did not. And please, let's leave the 'moral', 'ethical' or 'honourable' chest thumping out of this.

If it was 'unfair' or 'cheating', and SC actually felt that way about it, they'd come out and say it, or perhaps even have it as part of the TOS. Then they'd put an end to engineering (enter the BB mini game anyone?). As it stands now, and from what Darian has posted, this simply isn't the case.

Whether they can successfully implement the changes they seem to be talking about, is another question that remains to be answered. (I'm skeptical myself, but look forward to being proven wrong)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

That's just life for you. I'd love to play in the NBA, but they won't have me. That doesn't mean I can't go play basketball in a rec league.

---

I could apply that same logic to engineered bases VS the anti engineering crowd. If you don't like facing engineers (The NBA), go play in a rec league (IE Friendly wars). BTW, just playing devils advocate with that one, before someone gets all up in arms about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

A rational person would either live with the fact that they have a TH10 that isn't very strong or they would war without him. Dropping a lot of money or several months time to engineer a TH10 just so you can cover attacks for a rushed TH10 isn't rational at all. The rushed 10 should be able to max out offense a lot faster than a brand new account can, and if he doesn't want to take the effort to do that, then maybe he shouldn't be warring.

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Jumping in late here, but every statement in boldface above is either demonstrably false, or dismissive and elitist.

It does not take very long, and zero money, to create an engineered th10. Ask anyone who's done it. I would assume you haven't, given your views.

There are such things as casual clans and family clans out there, who don't drop people just because they can't attack their way out of a paper bag. Instead, we try to train them, and if a couple years' worth of instruction doesn't take, then we either find another clan or we find some way to cover for them. Such clans aren't going to threaten one like yours, anyway--if anything you should be happy to face them.

All of this I need to cover is a bunch of baloney. We haven't run into a clan with a rusher th10 and a cover th10 in ages. I wouldn't be on here complaining either.

What we run into is that there is a roster engineering setup that can consistently eliminate your opponent from having a chance to win, regardless of how bad an attacker you are and how good of attackers the other clan is. I'm so sure you engineered your roster this way for your little brother. Or just maybe because you like to always win and dont like the other team to a chance; the definition of an unfair fight. I also call baloney because the whole design allows you to bin 12 attacks out of 30. They don't need to show up. Seems to us those weak friend accounts don't even attack.

Here is the recipe for all you clans without attack skill:
1 mid to max th11 w a good anti 2 star design
1 high th10, anti 2 star
A couple more th10s and th11s but no other player higher than 76k
whatever you want for th8s and th9s but not a pile of maxers
then several 6.11 or 7.11 weight players near the bottom.
sprinkle a couple th5 at the very bottom.

Now enjoy your match vs a clan with no eagles and maybe 1-2 bases w any infernos and a bunch of skilled th9s and th8s because
the matchmaker is:
- too stupid to understand that 6-12 th11 attacks vs 0 is not a fair fight
- too stupid to understand that even max th10s can struggle vs th11 (certainly can never 3 star) (not a fair fight)
- too stupid to understand that allowing a offense weight to defense weight differential of 3 th or more is not a fair fight
- too stupid to understand that the standard deviation in weight crossed with th level would easily identify engineers.

So, yeah, if you don't want to compete and just want to win every time, go ahead. But the fact that you are shocked that those of who have been playing a different game involving skill resent what has happened to OUR wars. And you are missing the very best of clan wars: a tight competitive war that is decided by the last star of the last attack at the last minute.

BTW, without fair matchups, I don't enjoy clan wars. Minus clan wars, clash is not interesting to me.

I think Jake was right. Clan wars is dead. All hail Roster wars. Long live Roster wars (not!).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

But the fact that you are shocked that those of who have been playing a different game involving skill resent what has happened to OUR wars.

---

Requires much more skill to compete against these clans. As you said, when they have way more maxed offensive attacks, they have nearly unlimited room for error. One clan fights more than the other (and that's not fair), but the other claims they are smarter and better attackers but need more attempts on higher bases. To me, that's bogus. To tell us to get on the lopsided players level is ridiculous(just speaking from personal experience, not directing at anyone).

Two of my clans four losses were completely decided on prep day (one we cut it close, but it really wasn't). Other two we literally beat ourselves and/or just got owned by real skillful base planning and attacking(hats off to them!). The two mismatched losses required no skill and plenty of smack talk. Much more respect to clans fighting in close wars which obviously have the right match up. Will take those losses every day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

All of this I need to cover is a bunch of baloney. We haven't run into a clan with a rusher th10 and a cover th10 in ages. I wouldn't be on here complaining either.

What we run into is that there is a roster engineering setup that can consistently eliminate your opponent from having a chance to win, regardless of how bad an attacker you are and how good of attackers the other clan is. I'm so sure you engineered your roster this way for your little brother. Or just maybe because you like to always win and dont like the other team to a chance; the definition of an unfair fight. I also call baloney because the whole design allows you to bin 12 attacks out of 30. They don't need to show up. Seems to us those weak friend accounts don't even attack.

---

Yes, that's what happens when your th9 and below first-strike most of their counterparts, as they should given the primacy of offense over defense at those levels. My clan does that. Yours? We let the "weak friends" dip, or go early to get some live practice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Here is the recipe for all you clans without attack skill:
1 mid to max th11 w a good anti 2 star design
1 high th10, anti 2 star
A couple more th10s and th11s but no other player higher than 76k
whatever you want for th8s and th9s but not a pile of maxers
then several 6.11 or 7.11 weight players near the bottom.
sprinkle a couple th5 at the very bottom.

---

What is your clan composition that you are matching such clans? And how often does it happen? My clan sees this sort of thing maybe once every 50 matches.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Now enjoy your match vs a clan with no eagles and maybe 1-2 bases w any infernos and a bunch of skilled th9s and th8s because
the matchmaker is:
- too stupid to understand that 6-12 th11 attacks vs 0 is not a fair fight
- too stupid to understand that even max th10s can struggle vs th11 (certainly can never 3 star) (not a fair fight)
- too stupid to understand that allowing a offense weight to defense weight differential of 3 th or more is not a fair fight
- too stupid to understand that the standard deviation in weight crossed with th level would easily identify engineers.

---

Ah, there you go. You have no th11 yourself. Personally I think any clan with no th11 to contest other th11, and a tight range of bases, is screwed. I know there are threads out there--and by folks I respect very much, btw--claiming that a tight range of bases helps. My experience has been otherwise. My own, alternative theory, is that if your clan composition looks like a casual/typical clan, you will be matched with casual/typical clans.

And a casual/typical clan has a pretty big th range, and almost certainly at least one th11, and a bunch of trash at the bottom because they're friends or fledgling accounts. Also not huge heroes. If you have a tight range and big heroes, you are NOT casual and NOT typical. So your matchups will take longer and be higher-variance thereof.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

So, yeah, if you don't want to compete and just want to win every time, go ahead. But the fact that you are shocked that those of who have been playing a different game involving skill resent what has happened to OUR wars. And you are missing the very best of clan wars: a tight competitive war that is decided by the last star of the last attack at the last minute.

---

So engineers are playing a different game, which isn't based on skill, and don't get competitive matchups, and are resented? Damn, I should just hang up my cleats now, as a filthy engineer.

FWIW we have had plenty of matches where it came down to last attack last minute. Some wins, some losses. All memorable. I suspect we both want the same things. We might disagree on what percentage of bad matches is acceptable, or more fundamentally what a bad match is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

BTW, without fair matchups, I don't enjoy clan wars. Minus clan wars, clash is not interesting to me.

I think Jake was right. Clan wars is dead. All hail Roster wars. Long live Roster wars (not!).

---

If clan wars vanished tomorrow, so would I. Again, I think we want the same things.

Cheerscar you might try not running so many .5bases in your war line up. 1/3 or so of your bases .5 maybe hitting that lopsided checkbox. It helped my clan having no .5s and a wider spread of TH levels. Hope this helps.

Needs himself a solid TH11 but the game shouldn't revolve around them like that. That you just have to have one, you know?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lMACl

Needs himself a solid TH11 but the game shouldn't revolve around them like that. That you just have to have one, you know?

---

I try to stay away from should or shouldn't... Bald fact is that SC introduced th11, and has been refining it constantly.

IMO they haven't adequately considered the cascade effects of bigger troops on lower bases; a CC full of max bowlers or hogs is devastating.

Also IMO they put the onus on previous perma-max clans to upgrade or die. Quite sure that was intentional--best for game, best for their bottom line.

But it's here, and it's the game we play. We sent three clanmates to th11, ready or not, because we felt we needed it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by posthoc

I try to stay away from should or shouldn't... Bald fact is that SC introduced th11, and has been refining it constantly.

IMO they haven't adequately considered the cascade effects of bigger troops on lower bases; a CC full of max bowlers or hogs is devastating.

Also IMO they put the onus on previous perma-max clans to upgrade or die. Quite sure that was intentional--best for game, best for their bottom line.

But it's here, and it's the game we play. We sent three clanmates to th11, ready or not, because we felt we needed it.

---

I did the same. I normally maxed everything and passed on some walls and troops. Just felt I needed to move on for my clan, and we needed it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lMACl

Needs himself a solid TH11 but the game shouldn't revolve around them like that. That you just have to have one, you know?

---

We interviewed for a bit but got nowhere. Why shouldn't a clan be able to grow organically together instead of having specific bases? I sure have heard a lot of garbage about how extreme engineers need this option bc friends. Yet, we have to find a th11?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by posthoc

I try to stay away from should or shouldn't... Bald fact is that SC introduced th11, and has been refining it constantly.

IMO they haven't adequately considered the cascade effects of bigger troops on lower bases; a CC full of max bowlers or hogs is devastating.

Also IMO they put the onus on previous perma-max clans to upgrade or die. Quite sure that was intentional--best for game, best for their bottom line.

But it's here, and it's the game we play. We sent three clanmates to th11, ready or not, because we felt we needed it.

---

We grew organically from zero 3 years ago. We only recently had a player get to max th10. So we don't have a roster to push up. Again, if you are going to argue clans should have room for weak attackers (and still win? Why?), then you should also accept clans should be able to run reasonable th ranges without th11s and still have fun. Clash is dead otherwise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AntiEngineer002

Cheerscar you might try not running so many .5bases in your war line up. 1/3 or so of your bases .5 maybe hitting that lopsided checkbox. It helped my clan having no .5s and a wider spread of TH levels. Hope this helps.

---

We aren't really running halfs. We had about 6 people go up to th10 maybe 2 months ago. Dropping infernos immediately will not help.

We we used to run th7s too. Recently, they stopped drawing th6-8 laterally and typically got matched vs near defenseless th10/11. Not fun, not helping, can't mentor attacks in wars like that. So no more th7s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by posthoc

Yes, that's what happens when your th9 and below first-strike most of their counterparts, as they should given the primacy of offense over defense at those levels. My clan does that. Yours? We let the "weak friends" dip, or go early to get some live practice.

---

Our opponents th9s aren't first striking. I'm not following. They have perhaps 12 th11 attacks and 6 th10 attacks in a 30 v 30. Not a single th9 on their side needs to 3 a th9.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by posthoc

What is your clan composition that you are matching such clans? And how often does it happen? My clan sees this sort of thing maybe once every 50 matches.

---

1 in 3 minimum easily. We had about 6 in a row recently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by posthoc

Ah, there you go. You have no th11 yourself. Personally I think any clan with no th11 to contest other th11, and a tight range of bases, is screwed. I know there are threads out there--and by folks I respect very much, btw--claiming that a tight range of bases helps. My experience has been otherwise. My own, alternative theory, is that if your clan composition looks like a casual/typical clan, you will be matched with casual/typical clans.

And a casual/typical clan has a pretty big th range, and almost certainly at least one th11, and a bunch of trash at the bottom because they're friends or fledgling accounts. Also not huge heroes. If you have a tight range and big heroes, you are NOT casual and NOT typical. So your matchups will take longer and be higher-variance thereof.

---

We have a relatively tight range and big heroes. I don't think we think of ourselves as casual.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by posthoc

So engineers are playing a different game, which isn't based on skill, and don't get competitive matchups, and are resented? Damn, I should just hang up my cleats now, as a filthy engineer.

---

Not 4 of 5 engineering clans we face. They only spam lalo and lean on superior offensive quantity not a precision or well-planned attack. But toss enough 7.11s on the bottom and you don't need much skill to beat a well proportioned th8-10 clan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by posthoc

FWIW we have had plenty of matches where it came down to last attack last minute. Some wins, some losses. All memorable. I suspect we both want the same things. We might disagree on what percentage of bad matches is acceptable, or more fundamentally what a bad match is.

---

We don't anymore because the matchmaker improperly weights light th11s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

We interviewed for a bit but got nowhere. Why shouldn't a clan be able to grow organically together instead of having specific bases? I sure have heard a lot of garbage about how extreme engineers need this option bc friends. Yet, we have to find a th11?

---

I agree with you. I don't feel you should have to need/want a TH11 to deal with this mess. It is just the game we live in now. People have to engineer to compete with engineering, or need to get to th11 to compete with troops and defend these attacks. As a TH8-10 clan you should grow organically and not feel compelled to engineer or rush your own progression just because others are seeking massive advantages and getting them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lMACl

I agree with you. I don't feel you should have to need/want a TH11 to deal with this mess. It is just the game we live in now. People have to engineer to compete with engineering, or need to get to th11 to compete with troops and defend these attacks. As a TH8-10 clan you should grow organically and not feel compelled to engineer or rush your own progression just because others are seeking massive advantages and getting them.

---

But isn't that how most things work. Someone figures out a superior way to play a game, then everyone adapts and follows. Every single person that complains about this has made adaptations to their game for war based on changes.
Look at hounds. First release, no one used them. Someone figures out an attack, now 90% or more top attacks include them.
Look at base building, hogs, AQ walk. All changes in strategy to deal with changes in troops.

March 2016, change in war weighting, matching. Engineers changed, others didn't. The advantage changed.

If if you are building a lineup for CWL or other structured league, I understand, maybe even sympathize, but if you are doing solely random spins, and complaining about engineers, you are playing a game you want, not the game that exists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

We aren't really running halfs. We had about 6 people go up to th10 maybe 2 months ago. Dropping infernos immediately will not help.

We we used to run th7s too. Recently, they stopped drawing th6-8 laterally and typically got matched vs near defenseless th10/11. Not fun, not helping, can't mentor attacks in wars like that. So no more th7s.

---

But have you tried benching all .5s for a war or two? If they've got a heavy offense unlocked without dropping the heavy defense, that could be a piece of the puzzle. MM might think 'engineer vs engineer, good match'.

What's your clan tag?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

We grew organically from zero 3 years ago. We only recently had a player get to max th10. So we don't have a roster to push up. Again, if you are going to argue clans should have room for weak attackers (and still win? Why?), then you should also accept clans should be able to run reasonable th ranges without th11s and still have fun. Clash is dead otherwise.

---

Staying away again from should and shouldn't: in a game with 11 levels and innumerable base designs and weights, running a distribution that doesn't look normal--in the Gaussian sense!--is going to get abnormal matchups. When we had nothing but max th10 and th9, and no th11, we got hammered too. Any distribution capped artificially at something below the true maximum is, well, unnatural.

The game gives us choices. But part of choice is the responsibility--nay, inevitability--of accepting the consequences of those choices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheersscar

Our opponents th9s aren't first striking. I'm not following. They have perhaps 12 th11 attacks and 6 th10 attacks in a 30 v 30. Not a single th9 on their side needs to 3 a th9.

1 in 3 minimum easily. We had about 6 in a row recently.

We have a relatively tight range and big heroes. I don't think we think of ourselves as casual.

Not 4 of 5 engineering clans we face. They only spam lalo and lean on superior offensive quantity not a precision or well-planned attack. But toss enough 7.11s on the bottom and you don't need much skill to beat a well proportioned th8-10 clan.

We don't anymore because the matchmaker improperly weights light th11s.

---

Human brains over-weight salience and recentness... that boldfaced figure is hard to believe, unless you're the unluckiest clan out there.

So you're not casual... you run a tight, ie. unnatural, range of bases. You have big, ie. unnatural, heroes. You have an artificial cap precluding any values of th11.

Given the clash universe. I'd say it's predictable you will hit a number of matchups where the other side has th11 and you don't. Given that by your admission you have a max th10, I would suggest a bump.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

And how does that make the way people build their bases unfair? The two things don't correlate.

---

Why do you suppose the matchmaker has so much trouble producing fair matchups?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by posthoc

Jumping in late here, but every statement in boldface above is either demonstrably false, or dismissive and elitist.

It does not take very long, and zero money, to create an engineered th10. Ask anyone who's done it. I would assume you haven't, given your views.

There are such things as casual clans and family clans out there, who don't drop people just because they can't attack their way out of a paper bag. Instead, we try to train them, and if a couple years' worth of instruction doesn't take, then we either find another clan or we find some way to cover for them. Such clans aren't going to threaten one like yours, anyway--if anything you should be happy to face them.

---

It takes a lot of time or money to engineer a TH10 that is actually going win wars for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

Why do you suppose the matchmaker has so much trouble producing fair matchups?

---

Again, you keep saying the same thing without having any direct correlation between the two things. The MM has problems because it doesn't account for offensive WW as much as it should. That's blatantly obvious in the fact that one clan can have 6 Wardens to another clans 0. That still doesn't make the way people build their bases 'unfair'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

It takes a lot of time or money to engineer a TH10 that is actually going win wars for you.

---

1) An engineered TH10 is not going to win you any wars.

2) It takes less than 6 months. With 0 money spent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

1) An engineered TH10 is not going to win you any wars.

2) It takes less than 6 months. With 0 money spent.

---

I guess technically, the matchmaker is winning the wars, but since the entire purpose of making the engineered TH10 is to get an easier matchup, it's pretty much the same thing.

It takes more than 6 months to build a TH10 that is consistently going to beat maxed TH9s. I don't think most clans freak out about running into a TH10 with a level 10 queen across from their TH7. That can be an issue against a clan that just doesn't have any TH10+, though.

And how is 6 months not a lot of time, anyway?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

I guess technically, the matchmaker is winning the wars, but since the entire purpose of making the engineered TH10 is to get an easier matchup, it's pretty much the same thing.

It takes more than 6 months to build a TH10 that is consistently going to beat maxed TH9s. I don't think most clans freak out about running into a TH10 with a level 10 queen across from their TH7. That can be an issue against a clan that just doesn't have any TH10+, though.

And how is 6 months not a lot of time, anyway?

---

It doesn't take more than 6 months. Our top TH11 (maxed TH11) just started an engineered account in March. No money spent (he's notoriously cheap). He's now sitting at TH10 with level 15 King (going to 16), level 14 Queen (going to 15), level 4 Dragons (going to level 5) and level 5 Lightning Spell. That's what, 5 months?

And considering the game takes 3~4 years to 'max' out a TH11, 6 months is a short period of time. 1/6~1/8 the time to max out.

(And 6 months is a short period of time in general, unless you're a 5 year old kid that can't wait for Christmas to come again, in which case 6 months might as well be 50 years ;))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

You're proposing that people who suck at the game not be allowed to war. That's not letting them play the game any way they want to play.

---

They can war in a clan that's not too concerned with winning. There are plenty of clans like that out there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

It doesn't take more than 6 months. Our top TH11 (maxed TH11) just started an engineered account in March. No money spent (he's notoriously cheap). He's now sitting at TH10 with level 15 King (going to 16), level 14 Queen (going to 15), level 4 Dragons (going to level 5) and level 5 Lightning Spell. That's what, 5 months?

And considering the game takes 3~4 years to 'max' out a TH11, 6 months is a short period of time. 1/6~1/8 the time to max out.

(And 6 months is a short period of time in general, unless you're a 5 year old kid that can't wait for Christmas to come again, in which case 6 months might as well be 50 years ;))

---

There are max TH9s that a TH11 with weak heroes will struggle to 3 star if all he has are max dragons. The base just isn't good enough yet, but in about 6 more months, it will be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

It doesn't take more than 6 months. Our top TH11 (maxed TH11) just started an engineered account in March. No money spent (he's notoriously cheap). He's now sitting at TH10 with level 15 King (going to 16), level 14 Queen (going to 15), level 4 Dragons (going to level 5) and level 5 Lightning Spell. That's what, 5 months?

And considering the game takes 3~4 years to 'max' out a TH11, 6 months is a short period of time. 1/6~1/8 the time to max out.

(And 6 months is a short period of time in general, unless you're a 5 year old kid that can't wait for Christmas to come again, in which case 6 months might as well be 50 years ;))

---

Taternader is spot on with his comment, unless this base fullfills a very specifc roll in the clan (really the essense of effective engineering as a fellow forumer often points out regarding timmay), that base is not going to be doping much other than providing redundant attacks in a traffic jam with other weak 10s (assuming clan has some). Fast forward 6 months and some dollar/euro and you have a Max bowler witch 35 45 20 hero account without infeno or eagle winning wars for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taternader

There are max TH9s that a TH11 with weak heroes will struggle to 3 star if all he has are max dragons. The base just isn't good enough yet, but in about 6 more months, it will be.

---

I've seen 10/10/10 heroes with level 6 Dragons and max Zap/Quake, high % 2 star a maxed TH11. He's not some noob that doesn't know how to play, he's an experienced (4+ year) player. He will not struggle on any TH9.

Maybe, depending on rest of roster. But a 10-10-10, max dragon, max loon max lightning, should destroy any th9 or 9.5. And can take weaker Th10's. Most well engineered clans should end up with extra attacks. So the redundant attacks are always an issue.

Edit: ninja'd. And it doesn't take much more than 6 months.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

It doesn't take more than 6 months. Our top TH11 (maxed TH11) just started an engineered account in March. No money spent (he's notoriously cheap). He's now sitting at TH10 with level 15 King (going to 16), level 14 Queen (going to 15), level 4 Dragons (going to level 5) and level 5 Lightning Spell. That's what, 5 months?

And considering the game takes 3~4 years to 'max' out a TH11, 6 months is a short period of time. 1/6~1/8 the time to max out.

(And 6 months is a short period of time in general, unless you're a 5 year old kid that can't wait for Christmas to come again, in which case 6 months might as well be 50 years ;))

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taternader

There are max TH9s that a TH11 with weak heroes will struggle to 3 star if all he has are max dragons. The base just isn't good enough yet, but in about 6 more months, it will be.

---

6 months isn't long once you're, er, old. Like me. I suspect most youngsters are closer to Christmas-thinking. :D

We do have a baby th11 in our clan who uses dragons, and yes, struggles to clear max th9. And yes, I suspect in 6 months he will be crushing it and garnering 6-packs routinely. Not sure why I'm supposed to feel bad about that, though.

It might seem like a long time but an account can start being of benefit in the th9 area which takes a little over a month.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

But isn't that how most things work. Someone figures out a superior way to play a game, then everyone adapts and follows. Every single person that complains about this has made adaptations to their game for war based on changes.
Look at hounds. First release, no one used them. Someone figures out an attack, now 90% or more top attacks include them.
Look at base building, hogs, AQ walk. All changes in strategy to deal with changes in troops.

March 2016, change in war weighting, matching. Engineers changed, others didn't. The advantage changed.

If if you are building a lineup for CWL or other structured league, I understand, maybe even sympathize, but if you are doing solely random spins, and complaining about engineers, you are playing a game you want, not the game that exists.

---

I don't have a response to this that just wouldn't be toxic and burn everything down. My only response is that SC won't be able to fix this if more people walk away. MM will never be fixed when bases are impossible to match as more people engineer and maxers and casuals quit. This had nothing to do with what I sent to cheersscar, at all. This helped nothing. My point is that everyone is being forced to change, just to take part in something that was meant to be as fun as it was competitive. The fun is gone for a bunch of people, that's the real truth and it is sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Maybe, depending on rest of roster. But a 10-10-10, max dragon, max loon max lightning, should destroy any th9 or 9.5. And can take weaker Th10's. Most well engineered clans should end up with extra attacks. So the redundant attacks are always an issue.

Edit: ninja'd. And it doesn't take much more than 6 months.

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They have a success rate a little under 50% from what I have seen. I can 2 star some TH11s with lvl 4 dragons if the xbows are all on ground and infernos are multi-target. That doesn't mean I'm going to 3 star any max 9 with lvl 4 dragons. The inferno makes things a lot easier, but you have to be really good with dragons to make them a 3 star attack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lMACl

I don't have a response to this that just wouldn't be toxic and burn everything down. My only response is that SC won't be able to fix this if more people walk away. MM will never be fixed when bases are impossible to match as more people engineer and maxers and casuals quit. This had nothing to do with what I sent to cheersscar, at all. This helped nothing. My point is that everyone is being forced to change, just to take part in something that was meant to be as fun as it was competitive. The fun is gone for a bunch of people, that's the real truth and it is sad.

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I agree that if more and more people leave the game because it is not fun, it is detrimental for everyone. But I also, think that the game is not static, and 2015, 2016 strategies don't work in August 2017.

The only point I'm trying to make is I don't understand why adaptation to all the new troops, strategies, base designs etc. is embraced by non engineers, but adaptation to the mm is not.

Not a single anti-engineer can say they use the same troops, attack strategies, or bases they did 2 years ago. Yet they still try and match random wars in the same way. I don't understand, the difference.

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Originally Posted by Taternader

They have a success rate a little under 50% from what I have seen. I can 2 star some TH11s with lvl 4 dragons if the xbows are all on ground and infernos are multi-target. That doesn't mean I'm going to 3 star any max 9 with lvl 4 dragons. The inferno makes things a lot easier, but you have to be really good with dragons to make them a 3 star attack.

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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was saying max dragon, max loon, max lightning, upgraded cc th11 with 10-10-10 or lower heroes should 3 star a th9 or 9.5. 99.9%.

Less so on th10's but can have success base specific. You can get to that th11 in 6 months or so, with no gems bought.