The true debate.. Is it fair to Engineers to change the MM?

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Originally Posted by JFSoul

Yes--I prefer to characterize it as those who prefer War outcomes be determined by

- Attack skill
- Base design
- Teamwork / strategy during the war

instead of

- Attack skill
- Base design
- Teamwork / strategy during the war
- Teamwork / strategy as it pertains to clan war weight (i.e. roster choices and upgrade path that favor an overall advantage baesd on supposed war matchmaker) before the war

Both are valid, and neither is wrong. I think the latter, commonly referred to as Engineering, is bad for the game in the long run for many reasons I and others have already stated over the last couple of years. SC has indicated they also feel this way, but my perception is they haven't made any demonstrable strides in the war mm toward one or the other. Will see how the new MM will play out.

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An excellent summary of the two different playstyles, fair and to the point.

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Originally Posted by DBlaze

Understanding loon pathing, choosing the right army for the right base, building a difficult base etc is one thing. Those are strategies that are meant to be part of the game. But finding a loophole in a game in order to find a lesser opponent is entirely different. And the fact that darian has made some posts regarding changes that are going to be made to the mm to give fairer matches clearly tells me that this loophole and the advantages that engineered bases have are not meant to be part of the game. Everyone should have the freedom to build their base. But there's no reason why the mm can't be improved to the point where every base is properly accounted for. Pretty obvious that the extremely lopsided bases are what's really throwing the mm off and not being weighed properly.

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passing on buildings that are more liability than advantage and understanding that you make use those defenses twice a day to prevent resource loss but the offense is sometimes used 24 times in the same period and offsets those losses with 22x additional gains is not a loophole. same goes for some defense buildings that are not that impressive on performance and if i choose to skip the purchase its not a loophole either.

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Originally Posted by Funktastic

Why still letting them having an advantage before the war begin?
How logical is it that not building defense can give you an advantage?
We are talking about war, a good defense and offense is mandatory to be able to win. Nowhere else in earth you can have an advantage by not building good defenses.
SC give us these defenses, we spend gold and time to build and upgrade them, in no way it should be a disadvantage.

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Getting the entire clan to attack in an organized fashion and making a clean sweep OF STARS from the bottom up is more important than any of the defense

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

I'd love to see one warn people before they place heavy defense such as mortars or wizard towers.

Careful Cheif, that defense carries a lot of war weight! You may not want to place it until you're a townhall 11!

Common sense tells you how to play the game. Common sense tells me that Supercell spends time making the content so they must want me to use every bit of it?

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

Always seemed to me that the tutorial specifically teaches you to go preemie. Drop everything you can, and gem gem gem. If there's a warning about TH loot penalty, everyone seems to miss it. Definitely no warning against letting defense get ahead of offense.

I always think about that when people bring up THE WAY THE GAME IS MEANT TO BE PLAYED. You're meant to back yourself into a corner and feel pressure to gem to fix it.

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LOL I have often advised that whatever the builder suggestion said was the worst thing you can do, it totally sets them up to fail and the TH gem packages are just as bad.

YOU NAILED IT TANK

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

That's exactly what I'm getting at. You get mortars at th5-6? Let's just say th5. People are already ruining their accounts at th5. How many new players at th5 are war weight savvy? These same th5 players place their mortars, spend a year or more building their bases only to find out they've chosen the wrong path and there isn't an re-do button. They're stuck eating the years they've invested.

Now, here's the serious question. How many of those type of players are you will to wager would start completely over? All the way back to th5, only to not build any heavy defense. Remember, this process will take years once again. How many of them do you think is sticking around?

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As a TH10 with 2 lvl 5 mortars
I can assure you any mistake prior to TH8 can be fixed, its in TH 8 up tht desisions become critical to the future.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

Exactly, and there isn't any option in game to fix it. The only option is to start over, in a game that takes YEARS to progress to higher level play. Players are ruining their accounts at the very start of their clash experience.

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like a bad marriage its sometimes better to start over but more better to step carefully forward from the start

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Originally Posted by lMACl

Very true, but to think for a second. Make the second algorithm CWL based. I mean make every base count as a max lvl at their TH. Even make their current defenses max and give them all max troops and capacity for their TH. Make it an event, give it perks, rewards, titles, banners. It would change the game completely! It would be such a huge event. Would be a testing ground for so many players curious about what new troops they can use, compositions, you name it. Or, the more you win at the highest level, a different title of prestige. Just like legend trophies, they serve zero purpose, but it shows prestige. But give a clan that fights the strongest clans something to earn? That will spark a lot of interest and maybe even curb the engineering. Not take it away, but man would that be fun?! I like your idea of event making, it's clan-based, and could be lots of fun! And I bet supercell would still make their cut ;) and I feel discouraged clans would make their come back. I wouldn't even know how to act with features like that!

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And people would lose any incentive to farm, gem, play. Just come on, war, return in 2 days..
I am guessing but most people farm in order to upgrade to be better at war, not because it's pleasurable.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

And people would lose any incentive to farm, gem, play. Just come on, war, return in 2 days..
I am guessing but most people farm in order to upgrade to be better at war, not because it's pleasurable.

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An event, not a life style... you can't tell me people wouldn't look forward to an event like that? Maybe want to get to that level of game play? Spend money to do it?

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Originally Posted by Funktastic

Everyone can choose to build their base as they want, and work for diversity if they want, but not building defense should put you at a disadvantage, not advantage.

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Originally Posted by RagnarFurias

It's that simple. Your sentence should be enough to close the debate.

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Originally Posted by NightFury100

It's hard not buying the shiny new defenses even if you know what the war weight will do to your village. The temptation is always there and I find it difficult to resist buying the new inferno towers for my village.

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Originally Posted by CRJC2551

I spent 3 years playing this game, the first year i was dumb and rushed to th9 and made bad choices along the way. I told myself I'd fix the problem and max. I did so and became a stronger player but still lacked success. I got beat by better clans. then i decided to work really hard to become a 3 star expert. Now im in my third year of this game where skill isn't what matters now. How can anyone think that's fine. People that work hard to become good should beat average players everytime. There shouldn't be shortcuts at all. It's ridiculous that they haven't fixed it at all. It's The biggest slap to all the player's faces. Remove townhall sniping because it's not the way the game wasn't meant to be played but leave engineering because why?

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Originally Posted by Mozam

My clan is casual, but we play the game for the wars. Without the wars, most in my clan would have quit long ago because we find the farming and/or trophy pushing boring. We did the expected thing for years, leveling up all buildings and troops as normal and then proceeding to the next townhall level. Then about a year ago, we realized that the opponents we were encountering who didn't have all their buildings for their townhalls weren't people who had just leveled their Townhall but that this was a deliberate tactic they were using for wars. This was how we discovered the .5 tactic. And we started implementing it ourselves because it's advantages were obvious after learning of it. Now in the last three or four months, we've gone through the same process with "engineered" bases who have maxed TH11 war troops but no defenses. And again, the advantages are obvious after you see the bases in action. So, we are now building defenseless bases. Not because we're lazy or can't compete, but because we want the footing to be as even as it can be and if we have some control over that, we want to use it.

I don't really care how Supercell addresses the problem, but I hope they do. I actually prefer the casual traditional method of progression.

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

Nonsense, there is no skill required to upgrade every TH in the clan to 11, get a couple of th11 troops and wardens. Or to stick a couple of defenceless bases on the bottom of the list. My 5 year old neice could manage it. (She might struggle with the why!)

The number of engineers I've seen do anything creative in upgrade patterns is miniscule. I have seen 1 or 2, but its maybe 1% of the abnormal bases, if that. That's where they've thought through the possibilities and come up with a plan for a purpose. Or where they truly understood war weights. The numpties we are currently fighting are in the process of upgrading all their th9s to get a warden and max drags (at th10 they're still failing on 62k ish bases!). But the other thing they do right away at th9: add xbows and max them, before even adding the other new guns. Clueless. Under the current MM they will eventually get to the stage they can blow some opponents away. But skilful? Jeez

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Originally Posted by Clark11308

This in spades. A skill is something not all can do equally regardless of how hard they try. Engineering is knowledge that once you have, all can do just as effectively as the rest. All that's required is the pursuit of said knowledge and then implement. Nothing in that chain fits the definition of skill.

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Knowing that two magnets stick or repel does not make you a theoretical physicist capable of using the LHC. picking up a compass doesn't make you Magellan or Cook
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFabsRFnWy0

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Originally Posted by 2222

I agree some engineers call it skill, but I think what they really mean is knowledge and I find it less likely to cause an emotional response other than to point out some nonengineers have the same knowledge but just choose not to use it.

I agree totally destroying engineering might cause players to quit. That perhaps would be a good incentive to nerf it, but not totally destroy it. Something like the 1.5 or 2.0 minimum weight I referenced could be a compromise in the middle. It would still afford engineers an advantage, but not as big as it is now. It might also inch us toward some day destroying engineering completely, but not all at once.

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$$$

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Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

Honestly, those changes wouldn't affect my 2 engineered bases in the slightest.

My engineered 10 already weighs much more than a TH8 or 9, and my engineered 11 weighs more than a TH9. Defensive weight on them are 76k and 80k respectively, but they perform at a much higher standard than their defensive weight would suggest. They're basically un 3 starable by any TH10, and even TH11s have failed on them. Not low level noob TH11s either. These are the bases people need to look out for, not those easy defenseless bases at the bottom of the war map, which I might add BTW I haven't seen one of for quite some time.

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I'm beginning to think that those who are so venom filled about engineering are not talking about us. It just seems that the discussion uses so many terms and labels so broadly applied that everyone who has sought to exploit the nature of the other players that made rash decisions has been tossed into the basket of deplorable called engineers

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Originally Posted by bouges

What is the current rate of well engineered clans getting cupcake matches? I truly find it unbelievable that anyone with an ounce of competitiveness would think that everything is fine, that their talents, ingenuity, mathematical prowess or whatever other rationalizations are used to justify the cupcake wars gotten due to flaws in the mm'er.

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we dont get "cupcake" wars most of the time

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Originally Posted by Chang405

Call me strange, but I actually enjoy going up against other engineered clans.



I would add that the vast majority of bases don't require any skill to build. How hard can it be to max? Once you have enough resources just click once and poof. Fun story, a friend of mine was saving up gold to do a defensive upgrade on her TH9 and her 4 year old daughter got hold of her ipad and decided to upgrade one piece of her wall to level 10 instead. :facepalm:

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Daughter was trying to show her that maxing walls before defense buildings is the best strategy to make the affect of current defense more effective for longer.

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

The difference is that maxers haven't been claiming they deserve and advantage because of their awesome upgrading skills, whereas at least some engineers have been arguing that the ability to resist the temptation to build defences (and the ability to keep 4 year olds away from the game) deserves exactly that

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Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

This. The arrogance adds insult to injury. People who upgrade all their buildings rarely, if ever, make claims about what great strategists they are in regards to their upgrade path.

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Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

Right. Because it takes so much more thought to just hit upgrade on a defence. I see way more rushed bases, than I do engineered bases. Why do you think that is? I can guess why. I'd guess that vast majority of players have given zero thought, or done any research, into what it is that constitutes a decent base. That the vast majority have zero idea at all how the MM works. Instead, they just ht upgrade, and 'hope' for the best. I suppose I should feel 'sorry' for those players? That I should give them special treatment because they didn't bother to take the time, or make the effort that I did when I decided to build my base?

You're right. People that build all their buildings don't make claims about what great strategists they are. Instead, they come here and complain about how 'unfair' it is that someone choose to build their base in a different way. Then they complain it's 'unfair' the they feel forced to have to build their bases in that same manner, and that they shouldn't have to, but at the same time the engineers should have to follow the same 'moral code' or 'rules' that they have set for themselves. ''We don't want to play your way, we just want to force you to play our way''. There is a word for that in the dictionary. You should look it up. It's called 'hypocrisy'.

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BRAVO Sauron probably the same players that place quake after a lightning because they Hope their 2x lightning will suddenly knock out a lvl 6AD without it , by luck magic IDK ...... math be dam

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Originally Posted by HavanaWoody

passing on buildings that are more liability than advantage and understanding that you make use those defenses twice a day to prevent resource loss but the offense is sometimes used 24 times in the same period and offsets those losses with 22x additional gains is not a loophole. same goes for some defense buildings that are not that impressive on performance and if i choose to skip the purchase its not a loophole either.

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I'm perfectly fine with you or anybody else skipping buildings that you feel doesn't perform. And I like how the game encourages everyone to build their base how they want. I like the variety. However, how you build your base and how I build mine shouldn't effect the mm. At least not as severely as it does now. The mm, as it stands now, does make some buildings a liability because it obviously doesn't weigh everything properly. And hopefully, with these changes coming, it allows similar clans with similar layouts and strengths to face each other. Instead of what we have now: a flawed, exploitable mm that gives some bad matches simply because someone else chose a different upgrade path than me

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Originally Posted by DBlaze

I'm perfectly fine with you or anybody else skipping buildings that you feel doesn't perform. And I like how the game encourages everyone to build their base how they want. I like the variety. However, how you build your base and how I build mine shouldn't effect the mm. At least not as severely as it does now. The mm, as it stands now, does make some buildings a liability because it obviously doesn't weigh everything properly. And hopefully, with these changes coming, it allows similar clans with similar layouts and strengths to face each other. Instead of what we have now: a flawed, exploitable mm that gives some bad matches simply because someone else chose a different upgrade path than me

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So now, where is the outcry for the people that rushed their bases? I mean, they chose a different upgrade path than the maxers right? Should, or shouldn't we, also be making the MM algorithm fair for them as well? How come I don't see the maxed type clans coming on here and being a champion for them? Oh, I get it. When the MM algorithm gives the maxers an advantage in war, that's OK. That's how it's supposed to work. I'm sure they're not beating down SC door to tell them (or us) how they smoked a rushed clan in war. But when it's a disadvantage, and they lose to an 'engineered' clan, well that's an entirely different story altogether. The sky is falling. I know, I know, it's not your fault they chose to rush their bases...........(see where that leads to?)

Perhaps I should refer to my earlier post where I told another poster to look up the work 'hypocrisy' in the dictionary.

So, you believe that a defenseless th11, max th11 Lab, would be found at the bottom of a CWL war?

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Originally Posted by SithLordScott

They don't. Just players in CWL don't need to cheat to compete, you do apparently

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Can't cheat if I am breaking no rules.