The true debate.. Is it fair to Engineers to change the MM?

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Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

Right. Because it takes so much more thought to just hit upgrade on a defence. I see way more rushed bases, than I do engineered bases. Why do you think that is? I can guess why. I'd guess that vast majority of players have given zero thought, or done any research, into what it is that constitutes a decent base. That the vast majority have zero idea at all how the MM works. Instead, they just ht upgrade, and 'hope' for the best. I suppose I should feel 'sorry' for those players? That I should give them special treatment because they didn't bother to take the time, or make the effort that I did when I decided to build my base?

You're right. People that build all their buildings don't make claims about what great strategists they are. Instead, they come here and complain about how 'unfair' it is that someone choose to build their base in a different way. Then they complain it's 'unfair' the they feel forced to have to build their bases in that same manner, and that they shouldn't have to, but at the same time the engineers should have to follow the same 'moral code' or 'rules' that they have set for themselves. ''We don't want to play your way, we just want to force you to play our way''. There is a word for that in the dictionary. You should look it up. It's called 'hypocrisy'.

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oh well, at least we won't be troubled with your lot anymore, as darian said, you'll get matched with your own kind. have fun :)

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Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

Right. Because it takes so much more thought to just hit upgrade on a defence. I see way more rushed bases, than I do engineered bases. Why do you think that is? I can guess why. I'd guess that vast majority of players have given zero thought, or done any research, into what it is that constitutes a decent base. That the vast majority have zero idea at all how the MM works. Instead, they just ht upgrade, and 'hope' for the best. I suppose I should feel 'sorry' for those players? That I should give them special treatment because they didn't bother to take the time, or make the effort that I did when I decided to build my base?

You're right. People that build all their buildings don't make claims about what great strategists they are. Instead, they come here and complain about how 'unfair' it is that someone choose to build their base in a different way. Then they complain it's 'unfair' the they feel forced to have to build their bases in that same manner, and that they shouldn't have to, but at the same time the engineers should have to follow the same 'moral code' or 'rules' that they have set for themselves. ''We don't want to play your way, we just want to force you to play our way''. There is a word for that in the dictionary. You should look it up. It's called 'hypocrisy'.

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If you dont like when people generalize about engis then perhaps you shouldnt about non engis. Or you can continue making assumptions about everybody and look just as foolish as the ones on the other side of the fence. All of your points are tossed about by both sides and both sides look equally ignorant when they parrot them.

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Originally Posted by Clark11308

If you dont like when people generalize about engis then perhaps you shouldnt about non engis. Or you can continue making assumptions about everybody and look just as foolish as the ones on the other side of the fence. All of your points are tossed about by both sides and both sides look equally ignorant when they parrot them.

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Funny thing is, no one cares how guys like him play the game. Nobody cares what order he builds, or doesn't build, the buildings in.

They just want the strategy part to be in the attacks themselves, who they attack, when they attack, how they attack. As well as how well they design their bases.

What they don't want is the war to be decided when they hit the search button. He wants the war to be decided when the search button is clicked.

If wars are going to be decided by the search button just kill off pre day and war day and save everyone 47 hours of boring nonsense. I doubt all us whiny cry babies would be coming to the forums in masses if we didn't have to suffer through 47 hours of the worst part of the game.

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Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

Funny thing is, no one cares how guys like him play the game. Nobody cares what order he builds, or doesn't build, the buildings in.

They just want the strategy part to be in the attacks themselves, who they attack, when they attack, how they attack. As well as how well they design their bases.

What they don't want is the war to be decided when they hit the search button. He wants the war to be decided when the search button is clicked.

If wars are going to be decided by the search button just kill off pre day and war day and save everyone 47 hours of boring nonsense. I doubt all us whiny cry babies would be coming to the forums in masses if we didn't have to suffer through 47 hours of the worst part of the game.

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these are my feelings as well

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Originally Posted by Tollboothwillie

If you have around half of your troops upgraded, yes you will start pulling th11s. That started from the October update( I believe). It was SC's first noticed attempt to fix engineered but didn't realy do anything to those that only upgrade war troops.

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This is how we got here in the first place - Supercell de-emphasizing troops and weighing defenses too much. Troops are the hardest to add weight to, because players who only upgrade one troop like dragons and miners shouldn't get to weigh significantly less than an equivalent base that upgraded some other troops as well. Add a weight to camps, spell factory, barracks, etc. to get a feel for the base level, but don't weight every unit so that those who upgrade them all are penalized for it. Do I really need to start all over to not upgrade goblins and some others I don't use just to not be penalized?

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Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

Funny thing is, no one cares how guys like him play the game. Nobody cares what order he builds, or doesn't build, the buildings in.

They just want the strategy part to be in the attacks themselves, who they attack, when they attack, how they attack. As well as how well they design their bases.

What they don't want is the war to be decided when they hit the search button. He wants the war to be decided when the search button is clicked.

If wars are going to be decided by the search button just kill off pre day and war day and save everyone 47 hours of boring nonsense. I doubt all us whiny cry babies would be coming to the forums in masses if we didn't have to suffer through 47 hours of the worst part of the game.

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Yes--I prefer to characterize it as those who prefer War outcomes be determined by

- Attack skill
- Base design
- Teamwork / strategy during the war

instead of

- Attack skill
- Base design
- Teamwork / strategy during the war
- Teamwork / strategy as it pertains to clan war weight (i.e. roster choices and upgrade path that favor an overall advantage baesd on supposed war matchmaker) before the war

Both are valid, and neither is wrong. I think the latter, commonly referred to as Engineering, is bad for the game in the long run for many reasons I and others have already stated over the last couple of years. SC has indicated they also feel this way, but my perception is they haven't made any demonstrable strides in the war mm toward one or the other. Will see how the new MM will play out.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

1. The problem (I assume, from SC's perspective) is that a max th9 has larger disincentives to hit upgrade under a th based matchmaker. Doesn't bother me but I think SC wants people to keep progressing.
2. By competitive I'm including any clan that cares enough to worry about their comp, I'm not just talking about leagues. I'll include any decent attacker at any stage of development within our TH range, as long as the base is balanced or 'following a sensible upgrade path'. I'd have to stop that under a pure TH system.
3. I'm not aware of incentives toward max. Seems to me rushing is rewarded in all facets of the game, all their other games as well.
4 & 5 no argument there.

Remember I like the idea, I'm just trying to get in SCs head to figure out why they haven't done it. IMO they're not stupid, they've just got other concerns than we do which can make their actions hard to understand.

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1. Not many people have a max 9 for the last 1-2-3 years and do not have a higher account. Total non issue, should stop bringing it up. People also have near max 9s, but burnt out and have basically quit. I dont know any active max th9 that isnt in one of these 2 camps, would be surprised if there is many.

2. Think you are wrong. we can agree to disagree on this.

3. I am suggesting SC create the incentive to move to max.. we both agree there is not currently one.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

A TH based/canned roster option would be great, I can see several reasons why SC hasn't added it though. The meta in a TH based system is the maxxed base, so the system would encourage perma max (and there's no revenue from a parked max base). It would leave anyone well short of max at a significant disadvantage, likely frozen out of war in competitive clans.
A piece of the problem with regular wars is the shallow pool - not enough warring clans to provide good matches. Any alternative to regular wars might make the pool shallower.

Might be a way around it by making it a weekly thing, gem entry fee. But I suspect SC wouldn't do that.

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Very true, but to think for a second. Make the second algorithm CWL based. I mean make every base count as a max lvl at their TH. Even make their current defenses max and give them all max troops and capacity for their TH. Make it an event, give it perks, rewards, titles, banners. It would change the game completely! It would be such a huge event. Would be a testing ground for so many players curious about what new troops they can use, compositions, you name it. Or, the more you win at the highest level, a different title of prestige. Just like legend trophies, they serve zero purpose, but it shows prestige. But give a clan that fights the strongest clans something to earn? That will spark a lot of interest and maybe even curb the engineering. Not take it away, but man would that be fun?! I like your idea of event making, it's clan-based, and could be lots of fun! And I bet supercell would still make their cut ;) and I feel discouraged clans would make their come back. I wouldn't even know how to act with features like that!

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Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

Funny thing is, no one cares how guys like him play the game. Nobody cares what order he builds, or doesn't build, the buildings in.

They just want the strategy part to be in the attacks themselves, who they attack, when they attack, how they attack. As well as how well they design their bases.

What they don't want is the war to be decided when they hit the search button. He wants the war to be decided when the search button is clicked.

If wars are going to be decided by the search button just kill off pre day and war day and save everyone 47 hours of boring nonsense. I doubt all us whiny cry babies would be coming to the forums in masses if we didn't have to suffer through 47 hours of the worst part of the game.

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Except, you're completely wrong. And rarely does my clan ever get a match that is decided war prep day. Nor do we want it to be decided that way. But nice strawman argument.

And it glaringly obvious that you do in fact care about how 'guys like' me not only play, but how and when we build our bases.

Short answer, Yes it's fair to change it.

Longer answer:

As pointed in another thread by 2222, the flaws caused engineering, engineering did not cause the flaws. There's a cause and effect. Most people, myself included, do not care how someone chooses to develop their base. What we want is to not have to face these supposed better "strategists" in war. It's a tower defense game. Building the end game best towers (infernos , eagle , even xbows) should be a well anticipated joy. It shouldn't be something to be avoided at all costs. So basically, if you want to curate your base and attack power differently, knock yourselves out. But the matchmaker should take that into account, and match your abilities with others with similar abilities, not just based mostly on defensive war weight.