The true debate.. Is it fair to Engineers to change the MM?

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Originally Posted by Stevejnr

Would changing wars to a situation where each person only gets one attack go any way to limit the advantage that engineers gain?

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I don't think it would make much difference, but it would severely affect how interesting wars are for everybody else.

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Originally Posted by Skrags

Onyx posted in one of his excellent 'How to fix' threads that the Mortar should be zero defensive weight. While I wouldn't say Zero is absolutely right, he's not far off imo.
:thumbsup:

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Slightly off topic here, but that suggestion was of course a deliberate, but slight, exaggeration - a mortar clearly has some value defensively so 0 isnt the 'correct' weight. But in another way there is an important truth: could a zero weight mortar be usefully exploited? As an underweight item, the exploit is to build more of them. Imagine a th8 gone to th11 and got just the extra free mortar upgrades... so what really? And that's even assuming players have worked out the weight is zero, and not just small. Getting exact item weights is very tricky. Which leads to the observation, that although the oft-repeated comment that engineers will always try to exploit the MM is true, in practice small errors might not be significantly exploitable. And that for engineering to be a problem requires some fairly significant MM flaws.

PS the original thread is still in my sig for those not around 6 months ago

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Originally Posted by strandwolfza

look even if I try to be 'fair' in this debate and listen to the engineers POV, this thing that you just wrote is the kind of thing that makes think, "are you kidding me?!"

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Ha, yeah, that was not a good attempt. The better argument is that many engineers are currently engineers because they were getting bad matches against other engineers and they thought it would be a way to get an even match (this doesn't apply to roster engineers).

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

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It isn't a troll it's a perfectly legitimate question to answer.

You ask if it's fair that one side should have an advantage but you need to understand why engineering has taken off so much. It's because players felt that one side had an advantage (the better players) and they couldn't compete.

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If that is something that others "need to understand" then you must be pretty sure of it. So what evidence do you have for that rather unusual belief, to make you that sure?

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

This is a mindset issue that I and others have pointed out from time to time. It is not engineering causing the problem of mismatches, it is engineering *revealing* the problems of the matchmaker

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oh so you are actually making us all a favor! I mean you're helping supercell by showing them the problem, a problem that wouldn't actually be perceived if you guys didn't chose to exploit it. well....thank you! I know I lost a lot of wars to engineers and this made my clan quit wars, but I guess I have to thank you, right?

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Originally Posted by Funktastic

- CWL, Clash Cup, forum wars etc etc
- MM was never correct, maybe it will be in the next few days...
- Yes I have an idea...
- SC said that they are working on the MM because it's not correct.
- I'm TH11, I know that I always 3 star TH10 and 9, and I always 3 starred TH9 when I was TH10. I know that this is what you search to do, and maybe you are happy doing it. For skilled player, the goal is to 3 star equivalent TH, maybe we like the challenge too much...
- That's the problem, if MM wasn't faulty, you also would drop your defense, let's see in few days. And it's nowhere written the real weight of each building, so you shouldn't have known this information if nobody have exploited it before.
- SC and all non-engineers.
- I don't know

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CWL and forum up, not SC sponsored. Not sure what clash cup is/was.
MM will never be 100% perfect unless they control what the base is for wars. There are too many variables for perfect
between you and Chang,
MM will never be perfect, SC makes continuous changes.
no one on the forum has ever missed a dip attack. 100% success rate.
Anyone who has paid any attention over the past year would have a somewhat good understanding of weights. Fair play CWL type clans have discussed this, and made numerous YouTube videos talking about x.5. The nlybreason to do x.5 is if you understand the relationship between defense and offense.

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

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It isn't a troll it's a perfectly legitimate question to answer.

You ask if it's fair that one side should have an advantage but you need to understand why engineering has taken off so much. It's because players felt that one side had an advantage (the better players) and they couldn't compete.

A clan full of good players always beats a clan full of average players so who has the advantage there?

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It's customary in most games and competitions that skilled players/teams beat unskilled players/teams. I'm not sure I've ever heard it argued that that's an unfair outcome.
The next olympics could be interesting if this attitude takes hold!

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Originally Posted by Skinnyfat

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It isn't a troll it's a perfectly legitimate question to answer.

You ask if it's fair that one side should have an advantage but you need to understand why engineering has taken off so much. It's because players felt that one side had an advantage (the better players) and they couldn't compete.

A clan full of good players always beats a clan full of average players so who has the advantage there?


OP: I think it isn't fair to engineers to change the MM system to negate their tactics but that doesn't matter. Life isn't fair so just anti up and get on with it.

I hope they do squeeze engineers out because it's ruining the spirit of the game and the way wars 'should' be played.

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A clan full of good players should always beat a clan with average players. Yes. And even then they are the favorites to win, not that they will definitely win. I wouldn't want Real Madrid or Barcelona losing to an MLS team because the MLS team was allowed to field 50 players.

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Originally Posted by strandwolfza

oh so you are actually making us all a favor! I mean you're helping supercell by showing them the problem, a problem that wouldn't actually be perceived if you guys didn't chose to exploit it. well....thank you! I know I lost a lot of wars to engineers and this made my clan quit wars, but I guess I have to thank you, right?

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To be fair to littledoctor, he is consistent on this issue, and most experienced forum members agree. The March 2016 update in particular gave rise to the 'lopsided' revolution that many players label as engineering, even though engineering has existed since the very early days of clan wars.
I don't blame the volume engineers for taking advantage of a flawed matchmaking system, and I'm a maxer!:)

I spent 3 years playing this game, the first year i was dumb and rushed to th9 and made bad choices along the way. I told myself I'd fix the problem and max. I did so and became a stronger player but still lacked success. I got beat by better clans. then i decided to work really hard to become a 3 star expert. Now im in my third year of this game where skill isn't what matters now. How can anyone think that's fine. People that work hard to become good should beat average players everytime. There shouldn't be shortcuts at all. It's ridiculous that they haven't fixed it at all. It's The biggest slap to all the player's faces. Remove townhall sniping because it's not the way the game wasn't meant to be played but leave engineering because why?