The true debate.. Is it fair to Engineers to change the MM?

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July 26th, 2017
2222

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

come on, the rules of this forum prevent a lot of us from speaking what we really think about engineers and they force us to be "politically correct" but the truth is that it's hard to respect those who chose to ruin wars for others just to compensate for their lack of attacking/defending skills

in a sense, these rules are good because they allow the debate to progress, but it can't be denied that they also forbid us from speaking what we really think, and that's always a bad thing, for the truth must be told no matter what

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

but it isn't only the playstyle that I disrespect, it's also those who use said strategy, and they do demand that I respect them

Steroids in sports. So, players look around and see others are using steroids to gain an advantage and then they have to decide whether they are going to do it also. In that way, a comparison of engineering to steroids makes sense, but it ends there. It ends there because the player thinking about steroids is thinking about something that is not only against the rules (cheating) but is illegal. Engineering is different for that reason. The excuse might be the same from both sets of players ("everyone is doing it I'm just trying to stay the same as everyone else") but the comparison fails because it suggests engineering is cheating. It isn't. Period. This is a fact because SC sets the rules of the game and there is no rule against engineering. Whether it is dirty, etc. is a matter of opinion.

Regarding your statement that engineers are just trying to compensate for their lack of skills, that is way too broad of a statement. Many engineered accounts are actually second accounts. I have a max th11. My storages are full and the clouds get boring so I made other acccounts. We needed war fillers anyway. Those other accounts are engineered. So, that means you assume I lack skill but if I hadn't made those accounts you wouldn't assume that? That doesn't make sense to me. In fact, I think the average engineer is more skilled than the average player. The average player is not skilled. The average engineer at least cares enough to learn about the game, learn that engineering is an advantage, probably frequents the forums, watches vidoes, etc. That doesn't mean they are great, but they seem to be better than average to me (again, average in this game isn't all that good).

As for your disrespect for engineers, take me for an example again. I made second accounts to fill in for war when needed. You would respect me if I intentionally constructed defenses that I think the matchmaker incorrectly overweights, causing me a war disadvantage, but disrespect me if I decide to instead not construct that defense and focus my gold instead on a defense that I think the matchmaker doesn't incorrectly overweight? That doesn't make sense to me.

Roster engineering is different (including by using a lot of defenseless accounts). I'm much closer to your opinion regarding that type of engineering (that it is dirty play, not that it is like steroids/cheating).
July 26th, 2017
J1mh1d

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chang405

You didn't give any INFO, you gave your opinion....a GUESS. Infos are backed up by solid facts and evidence.

If that is your opinion regarding the meaning of info, it is ok.
What i know, info does not need to be backed up by solid facts and evidence.
Info can be misleading. Info can be false or right. Info can based on lies or truth.
Given example is easy. Read the bible or koran. It gives you info. Solid fact? Evidence? Well of course, as per your point of view, you will not gain any info from it.
Your perpective regarding info and mine are different fundamentally. And i could not care less.
July 26th, 2017
seigedawg

The bottom line is engineers only engineer for an unfair advantage. Call it what you want cheating/not cheating or strategy/Not strategy or good/bad. But the bottom line is they want a way to swing to them an advantage from going straight up against an opponent.
As for Supercell letting it go on and on, has to be about money because they know darn well it ruins fair competition and they have chosen to look the other way for a very long time.
But to answer the OP question, yes it is fair to change the MM, Supercell should strive for fair competition in their games. Just like any other balancing update, they adjust things to make it fair.
July 26th, 2017
strandwolfza

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2222

Steroids in sports. So, players look around and see others are using steroids to gain an advantage and then they have to decide whether they are going to do it also. In that way, your comparison of engineering to steroids makes sense, but it ends there. It ends there because the player thinking about steroids is thinking about something that is not only against the rules (cheating) but is illegal. Engineering is different for that reason

it wasn't me who did the steroids comparison

Quote:

but the comparison fails because it suggests engineering is cheating. It isn't. Period. This is a fact because SC sets the rules of the game and there is no rule against engineering. Whether it is dirty, etc. is a matter of opinion

there is no rules against engineering, but there is no rules supporting it either (I know this is kinda ridiculous, but stay with me)

my point is that there's nothing about engineering in the ToS at all. but supercell have expressed their disaproval for such thing a lot of times, haven't they? and now they're supposedly getting rid of it. so, in the developers' point of view, engineering is wrong

Quote:

Regarding your statement that engineers are just trying to compensate for their lack of skills, that is way too broad of a statement. Many engineered accounts are actually second accounts. I have a max th11. My storages are full and the clouds get boring so I made other acccounts. We needed war fillers anyway. Those other accounts are engineered. So, that means you assume I lack skill but if I hadn't made those accounts you wouldn't assume that? That doesn't make sense to me. In fact, I think the average engineer is more skilled than the average player. The average player is not skilled. The average engineer at least cares enough to learn about the game, learn that engineering is an advantage, probably frequents the forums, watches vidoes, etc. That doesn't mean they are great, but they seem to be better than average to me (again, average in this game isn't all that good)

ok, I shouldn't have generalized, but at least in my clan's experience, engineers simply suck at attacking. not trying to be rude or toxic, just saying what we've seen in clan wars

Quote:

As for your disrespect for engineers, take me for an example again. I made second accounts to fill in for war when needed. You would respect me if I intentionally constructed defenses that I think the matchmaker incorrectly overweights, causing me a war disadvantage, but disrespect me if I decide to instead not construct that defense and focus my gold instead on a defense that I think the matchmaker doesn't incorrectly overweight? That doesn't make sense to me

not a disadvantage, a fair battlefield. your advantage shoud be your superior attacking skills and your superior knowledge in base designs, that's how wars was intended to be played at least

Quote:

Roster engineering is different (including by using a lot of defenseless accounts). I'm much closer to your opinion regarding that type of engineering (that it is dirty play, not that it is like steroids/cheating).

please, teach me what is "roster engineering". isn't it the same as engineering?
July 26th, 2017
2222

Quote:

Originally Posted by seigedawg

The bottom line is engineers only engineer for an unfair advantage. Call it what you want cheating/not cheating or strategy/Not strategy or good/bad. But the bottom line is they want a way to swing to them an advantage from going straight up against an opponent.
As for Supercell letting it go on and on, has to be about money because they know darn well it ruins fair competition and they have chosen to look the other way for a very long time.
But to answer the OP question, yes it is fair to change the MM, Supercell should strive for fair competition in their games. Just like any other balancing update, they adjust things to make it fair.

Some engineer for an "unfair" advantage, but your comment that this is the "bottom line" suggests you mean that is why everyone does it, and that is not true. If no one else engineered other than one clan, that might be true. However, many engineers are doing it specifically to try to get an even match, not to get an advantage. After getting a disadvantage against engineers, they themselves engineered to try to even the playing field. All of these assumptions about engineers are just that, assumptions, and you know what they say about assuming?

I agree with you it is fair to keep changing the MM though.
July 26th, 2017
Ripple1972

Quote:

Originally Posted by J1mh1d

If that is your opinion regarding the meaning of info, it is ok.
What i know, info does not need to be backed up by solid facts and evidence.
Info can be misleading. Info can be false or right. Info can based on lies or truth.
Given example is easy. Read the bible or koran. It gives you info. Solid fact? Evidence? Well of course, as per your point of view, you will not gain any info from it.
Your perpective regarding info and mine are different fundamentally. And i could not care less.

Wow, steroids, politics and religion. Oh and base building in a mobile game.

we have jumped the shark.

And I'm a super genius, leet something. (I think leet is good). And I am the greatest and won.
- just summarizing what was said earlier. I think that's a fact.
July 26th, 2017
seigedawg

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2222

Some engineer for an "unfair" advantage, but your comment that this is the "bottom line" suggests you mean that is why everyone does it, and that is not true. If no one else engineered other than one clan, that might be true. However, many engineers are doing it specifically to try to get an even match, not to get an advantage. After getting a disadvantage against engineers, they themselves engineered to try to even the playing field. All of these assumptions about engineers are just that, assumptions, and you know what they say about assuming?

I agree with you it is fair to keep changing the MM though.

Great point, I agree and respect your thoughts greatly in these forums. Maybe I should say the "root" of engineering was to gain an unfair advantage.
July 26th, 2017
Denton

27 pages...really?

Of course it is fair and the sooner and better - hope they remove them from the game so I can revert to being a maxer and get all fair matchups like I didn't before I started engineering...
July 26th, 2017
Freyja1

Roster engineering is using the mm way of averaging total weight (simplified ) as the way you make up your clan.
-adding low weight accounts to offset the heavy accounts at the top
- making as roster such that there is an anchor, then most about 2 ths below that, then 2-4 weak accounts 2 ths below that. This type of roster engineering (used to) insure wins because they were never matched to clans that could 3 star the anchor.

There are clan that are full of engineered accounts that also roster engineer, but roster engineering can be done with regular accounts.
July 26th, 2017
2222

Quote:

Originally Posted by strandwolfza

it wasn't me who did the steroids comparison

there is no rules against engineering, but there is no rules supporting it either (I know this is kinda ridiculous, but stay with me)

my point is that there's nothing about engineering in the ToS at all. but supercell have expressed their disaproval for such thing a lot of times, haven't they? and now they're supposedly getting rid of it. so, in the developers' point of view, engineering is wrong

ok, I shouldn't have generalized, but at least in my clan's experience, engineers simply suck at attacking. not trying to be rude or toxic, just saying what we've seen in clan wars

not a disadvantage, a fair battlefield. your advantage shoud be your superior attacking skills and your superior knowledge in base designs, that's how wars was intended to be played at least

please, teach me what is "roster engineering". isn't it the same as engineering?

I realized it wasn't you and edited my post before you posted this, but you must have already been in the process of typing it. Sorry.

I'm with you on the no rules supporting it. I don't think the TOS help engineers argue that engineering is honorable, just that they support the fact that it is not cheating. I don't disagree that the developers say it is wrong or at least not intended. Whether they think that or not, I don't know. I will tell you what I think and that is that engineering is bad for the game.

Your experience is different than mine when facing engineers. My experience is they are generally better than average, but I always feel the need to point out I think the average player is pretty terrible at attacking. The average player doesn't read the forums, doesn't watch videos, doesn't put any time into trying to get better, etc. I chat with people in the forums all the time that have no idea what engineering or war matching or war weight even means.

I totally agree wars were intended to be decided as much as possible by the skill of the players in base designing and attacking and I personally agree that is what we should strive for. Some like the "strategy" of engineering, but I do not, or at a minimum I would like to see the advantage it gains to be lessened.

I don't consider roster engineering the same as engineering, no. We are talking about terms of art here so we all may have different definitions. I chatted with a guy on global the other day with 50 perfect wars in a row. 30v30, the bottom 15 were all extremely low weight bases. He was roster engineering to totally throw off the match completely. One of the top war streak clans does some very effective roster engineering.

I guess I differentiate this from just engineering your own account (this is just a matter of opinion that I hold). For example, I have a second account that is a th9. Should I build things that I think cause a war disadvantage because they are weighted too high for the value they bring on defense? I have a th10 too, but I didn't build infernos yet. Do you advise your clan mates to drop infernoes as soon as they go to th10? After all, they help on the multiplayer side of the game. The main reason not to build them is a perception that they are a disadvantage in war for early th10s. That is engineering and I don't find it disrespectful. I blame the matchmaker not the player when it comes to electing what to build or not build. Again, I differentiate that from roster engineering (and defenseless is pretty close).

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