The true debate.. Is it fair to Engineers to change the MM?

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Originally Posted by MouthofSauron

Not only can't you draw a 100% equality, you can't draw any equality between the two.

One is not only cheating, it's actually illegal. The other is neither.

One is gaining an advantage to make millions of dollars. The other is playing a video game.

There are many other reasons the two are completely non comparable, but those are the two most obvious in my mind, so I'll leave it at that.

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You realize no analogy in the history of the world could ever be used if the two things being compared had to be 100% the same right?

Other than "nope sorry I disagree with you" and discounting everything I wrote because sports and video games are not identical, you haven't said much of anything. Your counter points aren't even valid.

I get it, you think you are super genius strategy player and out smarting those that you defeat. I also use the same techniques you use. I just don't pretend like it's something it's not.

My point was the merits of engineering are very similar to those of steroid use. My point was that in CWL, which is held by the game maker as the highest form of war (since they showcase it frequently, via in-game news), engineerig IS illegal. Why? Because it's managable to remove it from war in a controlled setting. There is no possible way they can ban engineering for the general population. But all signs point to yes they would, if they could.

Do you have any counter points to those? Or just more of the same "nope, you are wrong" without anything to back up your claims?

I'm sorry that being told one of your most advantageous play styles is garbage and pathetic hurts your feelings so much. But it's the truth and pretty much everyone who isn't engaging in it agrees on that. Even the game maker is looking to get rid of it, because they know it's just flat out bad for the game.

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Originally Posted by xXXCHRISXXx

What about all the gems purchased before they were maxed? All the hero levels gemmed for war? 40 levels of queen work, once past level 15 (I believe) it cost $9.99 every level. That's $250 usd just on one hero. Imo, they've spent more than enough and shouldn't be required to spend more.

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If someone really gemmed that much, then you are right, they shouldn't be required to spend more. But I bet SC would PREFER that they spend more. After all, given their previous gemming habits, if they upgraded to Th11 they would spend even more compared to perma maxing at TH10.

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Originally Posted by NellyFor3

I don't see anything wrong with a permanently maxed base that's less than TH11. If you really like the TH10 3-star game then why not? If you really love 9v9 attacks then stay as a max 9 and do that. Totally different than not building defenses at all.

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There isn't anything wrong with perma basing at all, just like there isn't anything wrong with engineering. They're just two different strategies designed to give an advantage.

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Originally Posted by NellyFor3

I don't see anything wrong with a permanently maxed base that's less than TH11. If you really like the TH10 3-star game then why not? If you really love 9v9 attacks then stay as a max 9 and do that. Totally different than not building defenses at all.

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The problem with perma max bases is in the matching, when there are several. 1 or 2 is fine, but what if a clan spins war with a dozen fully maxed th9s. What are they hoping to match to? Its very unlikely another clan with so many perma max th9s will be searching at the same time. So the suspicion is they wanted to match lower th9s and beat them up. But SC fixed that. What they will match is a mix of th9s and th10s - probably 9.5s. And then they complain about matching and engineering

If you like 9v9 war then you war with 20/20 heroes. Anyone going to 30/30 heroes and camping there will not get sensible random wars

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

I gave two examples in the comment you replied to.




Then I suggest you say "no-defense" instead of "engineering".




Substitute 13-year-olds then. When the matchmaker matches my clan of adults against a clean of 13-year-olds, which clan is cheating? Because my clan of adults clearly has an unfair advantage.

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See you are another one of those people that just wants to argue. You know darn well when we are talking about engineering and it's removal we are talking about the type of engineering that earns clans additional top end attacks and puts clans at an extreme advantage over the opponent.

This marginal type of engineering that you are advocating, or permabases, is far and away less upsetting and bothersome to the general population. If that is all it was, there would be no more threads about engineering today than there was 2 1/2 years ago.

You know people are talking about a different type of engineering, the popular form we see today that everyone is doing now, the super simple exploitation of the matchmaking system by building a lopsided offense heavy base... you know all this but you still have to nit-pick and fire people up in an already heated debate.

Come on man...

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

The problem with using "gaming the system" is while it can argued that it is technical correct, it has a negative connotation. Which a few posters are obviously doing. Which leads to childlike back and forth about vocabulary not the issue. This also does nothing to further the discussion.

I would say I am "working the system". The mm is the same for everyone, I choose to optimize my base for war. And it is solely about war.

I don't think a th9.11, is a liability in farming, my dless always get shields so while they get 100%'d it just means I need to be better at farming and shield management.

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engineers use the "engineering isn't against the ToS" argument as if "if it isn't against the ToS, then it's right". but the ToS also don't say that engineering is right. it doesn't say anything about engineering at all

what we know, however, is that engineering wasn't the way supercell intended us to play the game, they said that a lot of times and now they're trying to find ways to get rid of it

the point is, if we take into consideration what the developers think about this issue, then engineering is, at least, "gaming the system"

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

So you don't see anything wrong with giving people the freedom to build their base as they like.

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as long as they don't ruin the game for anybody else....

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Then I suggest you say "no-defense" instead of "engineering"

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isn't it "no-defense" the extreme example of engineering?

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Substitute 13-year-olds then. When the matchmaker matches my clan of adults against a clean of 13-year-olds, which clan is cheating? Because my clan of adults clearly has an unfair advantage.

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what advantage? are you saying that just because they're young then they're unskilled players? let me tell you that I've seen a lot of adults who totally sucked at attacking

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Substitute 13-year-olds then. When the matchmaker matches my clan of adults against a clean of 13-year-olds, which clan is cheating? Because my clan of adults clearly has an unfair advantage.

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Idk Doc, I've met some pretty legit teenaged gamers. I have two myself. A real doc would say, "You can't put an age on matureness." I've met some really immature adults but very mature kids. Yes, your clan would have an advantage over most kids. Wait, why are we using analogies?

Yes it's unfair to engineers. Guys please stop my friends. Let engineered bases and wars get away with this. Let them win, give my friends, give all you can to them. Be at peace ☮️ that you make them happy. Don't match wars against similar th lvls please, let them attack and wreck unevenly matched bases, they are angels. Let them be please. Leave , peace and love and happiness and rainbows

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

but what if a clan spins war with a dozen fully maxed th9s. What are they hoping to match to?

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the same

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

Its very unlikely another clan with so many perma max th9s will be searching at the same time.

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wrong

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

So the suspicion is they wanted to match lower th9s and beat them up.

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nope

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Originally Posted by OnyxDS

But SC fixed that. What they will match is a mix of th9s and th10s - probably 9.5s. And then they complain about matching and engineering

If you like 9v9 war then you war with 20/20 heroes. Anyone going to 30/30 heroes and camping there will not get sensible random wars

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more wrongness.

IDK why you project so like this.

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Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

You realize no analogy in the history of the world could ever be used if the two things being compared had to be 100% the same right?

Other than "nope sorry I disagree with you" and discounting everything I wrote because sports and video games are not identical, you haven't said much of anything. Your counter points aren't even valid.

I get it, you think you are super genius strategy player and out smarting those that you defeat. I also use the same techniques you use. I just don't pretend like it's something it's not.

My point was the merits of engineering are very similar to those of steroid use. My point was that in CWL, which is held by the game maker as the highest form of war (since they showcase it frequently, via in-game news), engineerig IS illegal. Why? Because it's managable to remove it from war in a controlled setting. There is no possible way they can ban engineering for the general population. But all signs point to yes they would, if they could.

Do you have any counter points to those? Or just more of the same "nope, you are wrong" without anything to back up your claims?

I'm sorry that being told one of your most advantageous play styles is garbage and pathetic hurts your feelings so much. But it's the truth and pretty much everyone who isn't engaging in it agrees on that. Even the game maker is looking to get rid of it, because they know it's just flat out bad for the game.

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A good analogy would actually be valid. Yours is neither good, nor valid.

They also showcase the CWL despite the fact they know that there is rampant cheating in it via modding, which is in fact against the TOS. So I'm not sure what your point there is? Hardly what I'd call a compelling argument for your 'case'.

I'd also point out that they have apparently been aware of, and doing something about, engineering for at least a year now, with little to no effect. Supercell (via Darian) has said they are trying to fix the 'problem' of 'lopsided' bases, but have given no clear indication of what they even consider 'lopsided'. In fact, Darian himself has even publicly stated that his clan only runs into 'lopsided' bases about 1 in every 20 wars. So given that fact, I'd say it's not as much a problem to them as you anti engineers seem to think it is. Nor as big a priority.

As far as hurt feelings go, you seem to be one of the only ones here with hurt feelings. I'm not the one throwing around insults, or having a temper tantrum like an 8 yr old. That would be you.

EDIT: I think when they finally do come up with/ announce their 'solution' to the problem, the anti engineering crowd is going to be sorely disappointed with it.