The true debate.. Is it fair to Engineers to change the MM?

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Originally Posted by Funktastic

That's not that simple, offense is already taken, but if offense take more weight, people will upgrade defense and only upgrade key offense like laloon for exemple, every other troop will be lvl 1 and they will have an offense weight of a th7/8 with max laloon.
Tweaking matchmaking looks impossible with all the possibility, that's why I expect a radical decision, like ineligibility of engineer to opt-in for war while defense are not all built.

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Hmm well ok , sounds complicated, how about similar halls? Like in loot raids, you get similar halls most often than not regardless of your defence or offence capabilities, why can't matchmaking take into account town hall level , if the player is rushed or engineered and are matched against a "normally" built up base with same town hall, at least it would be fair for a engineered player and a event of consequence of action for a rushed player.

Seriously this should be simple enough right?

If not then remove the town hall penalty and matchmaking in loot raids too , so let engineered or rushed players pit against similar defence bases, remove loot available penalty for raiding lower town hall and make maximum advantage of the system

I think the biggest issue with this is that defense weighs too much more than offense. Infernos, ea, perhaps even the bomb towers and mortars weigh too much whereas troops and maybe even the gw don't weigh enough. Let's compare a defensive engineered base to an offensive engineered base. Why is it that the defensive base (high defenses, low lvl troops and heroes), is shoved at the top of the war map but the offensive base (low lvl defenses and extremely high powered offense) gets to sit at the bottom? It's because defenses weigh too much. Supercell claims that the mm accounts for offense and defense equally, or 50/50. That's obviously not the case because of the example and question I just posed. So I think this is where Supercell needs to start to help give it balance.

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Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

Well, they wouldn't be very accurate with that accusation. If someone puts in th3s to fill war spots they are filling war spots. If they do it to gain an advantage over their opponent they are roster engineering. There is a difference. Just dropping in some th3s was never enough to throw the match maker.

Does that kind of roster engineering even work anymore? Thought they already fixed that.

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Just dropping a couple th3s at the bottom doesn't do much anymore other than match you against someone doing the same, often with defenseless. However, roster engineering with a lot more than 2 th3s does still work. Think more along the lines of 5 th3s, 5 defenseless in a 20v20. Of course, what you put in the top 10 matters too.

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Originally Posted by Postal

Matchmaking must take into account offence too! For heaven's sake!

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It does.

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Originally Posted by Postal

Why can't offence be taken into account for war matchmaking??? Is it too complicated for makers of such an amazing mmo?

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It is taken into account.

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Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

Also look at Clan War League rules. Engineering is outright banned. Why? Because it is garbage. They are able to straight up ban it there because it is a much smaller pool and they have human eyes on every match up.

Supercell endorses the CWL and it seems like they regard it as the highest form of war matchups.

Using steroids and engineering are very similar in nature.

It's just impossible for supercell to ban engineering in normal play because to define it would be extremely difficult and ovely confusing. They can't make a rule up for it, what would that rule even say "We allow you to build defenses in any order you want and you can progress as fast as you want but if you don't build all the defenses before going to the next townhall you will be banned" ? That would be idiotic and create a ton of support issues. Since the cat is out of the bag and forcing building placement cannot be done the rule is impossible to enforce so no reason to make a rule at all.

I stand by the steroid analogy.

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The trouble with it is it suggests engineering is cheating, when it isn't. If SC were to change the rules to make engineering against the rules then it would be cheating and more similar to steroids.

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Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

Also look at Clan War League rules. Engineering is outright banned. Why? Because it is garbage. They are able to straight up ban it there because it is a much smaller pool and they have human eyes on every match up.

Supercell endorses the CWL and it seems like they regard it as the highest form of war matchups.

Using steroids and engineering are very similar in nature.

It's just impossible for supercell to ban engineering in normal play because to define it would be extremely difficult and ovely confusing. They can't make a rule up for it, what would that rule even say "We allow you to build defenses in any order you want and you can progress as fast as you want but if you don't build all the defenses before going to the next townhall you will be banned" ? That would be idiotic and create a ton of support issues. Since the cat is out of the bag and forcing building placement cannot be done the rule is impossible to enforce so no reason to make a rule at all.

I stand by the steroid analogy.

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As has already been pointed out, your steroid analogy is badly flawed. It's also inflammatory. I'm no fan of engineering's effect on the game, but the people who engineer are something else - they are fellow players here to like, respect, etc based on how they express their views and how interesting their posts are as forum contributions. It doesn't matter that they don't play as I do. Even though we don't play the same way, I don't at all like the suggestion that those good people among us are doing something akin to a steroid using athlete deliberately flouting the rules of their sport. Engineering breaks no such rules, it is rather using knowledge of a present matchmaker to secure easier opponents in war matches by selective build strategies. Whether or not an algorithm can detect it is nothing like the issue of whether a particular performance enhancing banned substance is detectable in a sample... the steroids are quite plain and simple rule violations, whereas while Supercell have stated they wish to remove the advantages of such builds and suggested the matchmaking effect is unfair, they have never suggested it's in any way breaking any rule. I suspect you've let your dislike for engineering's effect on the game spill over into an unjustified personal reaction to the builders of such bases, and cynicism about the games company.

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Originally Posted by Tomville

As has already been pointed out, your steroid analogy is badly flawed. It's also inflammatory. I'm no fan of engineering's effect on the game, but the people who engineer are something else - they are fellow players here to like, respect, etc based on how they express their views and how interesting their posts are as forum contributions. It doesn't matter that they don't play as I do. Even though we don't play the same way, I don't at all like the suggestion that those good people among us are doing something akin to a steroid using athlete deliberately flouting the rules of their sport. Engineering breaks no such rules, it is rather using knowledge of a present matchmaker to secure easier opponents in war matches by selective build strategies. Whether or not an algorithm can detect it is nothing like the issue of whether a particular performance enhancing banned substance is detectable in a sample... the steroids are quite plain and simple rule violations, whereas while Supercell have stated they wish to remove the advantages of such builds and suggested the matchmaking effect is unfair, they have never suggested it's in any way breaking any rule. I suspect you've let your dislike for engineering's effect on the game spill over into an unjustified personal reaction to the builders of such bases, and cynicism about the games company.

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come on, the rules of this forum prevent a lot of us from speaking what we really think about engineers and they force us to be "politically correct" but the truth is that it's hard to respect those who chose to ruin wars for others just to compensate for their lack of attacking/defending skills

in a sense, these rules are good because they allow the debate to progress, but it can't be denied that they also forbid us from speaking what we really think, and that's always a bad thing, for the truth must be told no matter what

Engineers doesn't break rules for the moment, but SC delayed to change the rules.
Then they will have to adapt.

SC does nerf and buff cycles all the time. This would be no different. It's their game and they can do what they see fit. The same argument gets brought up about the miner nerf (glitch fix) and TH sniping. So to answer your question, yes, it's perfectly fair.

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Originally Posted by strandwolfza

come on, the rules of this forum prevent a lot of us from speaking what we really think about engineers and they force us to be "politically correct" but the truth is that it's hard to respect those who chose to ruin wars for others just to compensate for their lack of attacking/defending skills

in a sense, these rules are good because they allow the debate to progress, but it can't be denied that they also forbid us from speaking what we really think, and that's always a bad thing, for the truth must be told no matter what

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Is it possible for the anti engineers to make a point without making bad analogies, or posting what is their opinion, but stating it like a fact. Stating your opinion without any facts to back it up has no relationship to the truth.

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Originally Posted by ClasherClash443

Also look at Clan War League rules. Engineering is outright banned. Why? Because it is garbage. They are able to straight up ban it there because it is a much smaller pool and they have human eyes on every match up.

Supercell endorses the CWL and it seems like they regard it as the highest form of war matchups.

Using steroids and engineering are very similar in nature.

It's just impossible for supercell to ban engineering in normal play because to define it would be extremely difficult and ovely confusing. They can't make a rule up for it, what would that rule even say "We allow you to build defenses in any order you want and you can progress as fast as you want but if you don't build all the defenses before going to the next townhall you will be banned" ? That would be idiotic and create a ton of support issues. Since the cat is out of the bag and forcing building placement cannot be done the rule is impossible to enforce so no reason to make a rule at all.

I stand by the steroid analogy.

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Pretty funny to bring up CWL as the way to do it right. How many CWL clans were caught modding this season?

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Originally Posted by Onetoomany

Pretty funny to bring up CWL as the way to do it right. How many CWL clans were caught modding this season?

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modding is not the topic here