Engineered Bases DONT REMOVE

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Originally Posted by Unul

I have a dilema after reading this thread. If engineered clans are paired from now on, who is in disavantage? I mean, will engineered players start complaining that there are other clans more engineered?

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Some people will complain that their clan isn't engineered yet they matched an engineered opponent. (Sometimes it'll even be true.)

Some will complain about hero level mismatches.

I expect the matchmaker to keep producing mismatches like it does now, but without mixing engineered with non-engineered, the non-engineered won't be able to blame engineers for it.

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

Some people will complain that their clan isn't engineered yet they matched an engineered opponent. (Sometimes it'll even be true.)

Some will complain about hero level mismatches.

I expect the matchmaker to keep producing mismatches like it does now, but without mixing engineered with non-engineered, the non-engineered won't be able to blame engineers for it.

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I see plenty of engineers complaints about being out engineered. Lets not make this sound like only non engis complain of mismatches. Its a game wide phenomenon.

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Originally Posted by Clark11308

I see plenty of engineers complaints about being out engineered. Lets not make this sound like only non engis complain of mismatches. Its a game wide phenomenon.

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Before engineering was this prevalent there were mismatches. Engineering brought more mismatches. After the fix, there will be mismatches. Some of these were/are real, some less so.

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Originally Posted by littledoctor

I expect the matchmaker to keep producing mismatches like it does now, but without mixing engineered with non-engineered, the non-engineered won't be able to blame engineers for it.

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We'll see what they come up with, but I'm having trouble figuring how they'd produce a sharp dividing line (engineered clan/ not engineered clan) to separate into two pools beyond what they're already doing (engies a little more likely to match eachother) without a cascade of further downstream problems. Like, what to do with slightly engineered clans? Do we go from a too-small pool of warring clans to two way-too-small pools?
As usual the forum's running wild with rumors based on a vague SC statement. I'd guess what we see will be more about changing weights (and there's significant improvements to be had there).

I think if SC is going to separate engineered from non-engineered, they should at least be open about how they determine what "engineered" is and give some sort of indication of who is and who is not considered engineered. I think it would be kind of nice to have a "standard" search that engineered bases cannot participate in and a "wild" search that includes everything, similar to how Hearthstone works now.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

, but I'm having trouble figuring how they'd produce a sharp dividing line (engineered clan/ not engineered clan) to separate into two pools beyond what they're already doing (engies a little more likely to match eachother) without a cascade of further downstream problems.

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You're not alone. My common sense chip (which, lets be honest is notoriously fallible) is saying :-

1) Does this clan have a 'lopsided' base'? - check
2) OK, how many? - check
3) Lets go matching something similar.
:saywhat:

Probably a good reason why I never became a coder...
But, all things being serious, I'm struggling to get past the above simplified new MM algorithm!!:facepalm:

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Originally Posted by Skrags

You're not alone. My common sense chip (which, lets be honest is notoriously fallible) is saying :-

1) Does this clan have a 'lopsided' base'? - check
2) OK, how many? - check
3) Lets go matching something similar.
:saywhat:

Probably a good reason why I never became a coder...
But, all things being serious, I'm struggling to get past the above simplified new MM algorithm!!:facepalm:

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Well if your common sense chip is on vacation, my cynical chip is working overtime. I cannot see SC making small changes (evolutionary) to the mm and having any different results. If they reduce the pool by segregating clans, they would have to define lopsided and Balanced. They have admitted there is difference of opinion internally. Reducing the pool is bad for everyone.

So, you talk about improvements, large number probability will ensure some good matches. Darian can post "we are making changes and the number of mismatches has been reduced, but we can never eliminate them". We never will get data and Darian's experience is unique to his clan. Some will get good matches, others bad. Similar to today.

Meanwhile, the developers who haven't changed what they do, continue on bh7.

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Originally Posted by Ripple1972

Well if your common sense chip is on vacation, my cynical chip is working overtime. I cannot see SC making small changes (evolutionary) to the mm and having any different results. If they reduce the pool by segregating clans, they would have to define lopsided and Balanced. They have admitted there is difference of opinion internally. Reducing the pool is bad for everyone.

So, you talk about improvements, large number probability will ensure some good matches. Darian can post "we are making changes and the number of mismatches has been reduced, but we can never eliminate them". We never will get data and Darian's experience is unique to his clan. Some will get good matches, others bad. Similar to today.

Meanwhile, the developers who haven't changed what they do, continue on bh7.

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I agree. Especially when Darian himself has said (quote floating around here somewhere) that his clan only encounters 'lopsided' bases about '1 in every 20 wars'.

I'm not holding my breath that this MM change will accomplish much, but look forward to being surprised if it does.

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Originally Posted by Clark11308

I see plenty of engineers complaints about being out engineered...

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And.... we all point and laugh at those individuals too.

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Originally Posted by TankSinatra

We'll see what they come up with, but I'm having trouble figuring how they'd produce a sharp dividing line (engineered clan/ not engineered clan) to separate into two pools beyond what they're already doing (engies a little more likely to match eachother) without a cascade of further downstream problems. Like, what to do with slightly engineered clans? Do we go from a too-small pool of warring clans to two way-too-small pools?
As usual the forum's running wild with rumors based on a vague SC statement. I'd guess what we see will be more about changing weights (and there's significant improvements to be had there).

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There are a number of ways that the current matchmaker could be failing that could be addressed. These are all popular descriptions of how matchmaking works (I'm not saying they're right)

• Any total for the clan used in matchmaking by itself. Base level variables are needed. I think this has already been addressed.
• Any combination of offense and defense before searching for matches. The comparison needs to consider the two factors separately.
• Any calculation of offensive power that does not properly account for camp size/cc/spells. This is often more important than troop upgrades in terms of "power".
• Any calculation of offensive power that does not properly account for needing only a few maxed troops to be effective. This is hard to solve as skill might allow some players to be under the threshold. Diminishing weight needs to exist for additional troops.
• Any comparison of offense to defense and defense to offense. Comparing Offense to Offense and Defense to Defense.
• Counting Heros as a separate troop. I don't know enough about how things are calculated behind the scenes,

On the minor side are things like

• Tweaking specific weights, especially on the defensive side. Process improvements likely have a much bigger impact than adjusting specific weights. Tweaking weights only affects balanced engineering, which is not the complaint today.

If I were writing matchmaking in the next few weeks, it would involve

• Calculate Offense and Defense for each base separately.
• Calculate Total Offense and Total Defense for the clan.
• Measure the distance between two clans as the distance between their offensive vector (in sorted order, not map order), their defensive power vector (defensively sorted order, aka map order) weighting both of those so that the larger scores count somewhat more. (by distance I mean sum differences squared)
• Finally compare the clans total offense and total defense (offense to offense and defense to defense) to ensure that it's not a tilted match where one clan is ahead.

Initially, it would not involve any weight tweaks. I would also work to figure out a way to regression the relative value of defenses/troops out of the vast dataset that is clan wars. Later I would apply a slow movement towards these weights from existing weights.


They may already do everything in the process I listed, in which case, they do need to start looking at weights.

Note: I'm not saying that some weights aren't grossly wrong (xbows/mortars/no clue on offense as we don't know weights there), but for most clans (everyone but balanced engineers), a few grossly wrong weights shouldn't matter much. A maxed base adds up to the same figure even if the math to get to it's score puts too much value on some components and too little on others. Near maxed bases likely are rated fairly near their appropriate score. Most bases in clash are on a pseudo maxing journey.

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Originally Posted by Koray007

OH MY GOD why are so many people complaining about engineered bases? Why is Supercell going to remove them??? I HATE THIS!!!! WHY??!!!!! The reason everyone is complaining about this is because they dont have the attacking strength to deal with engineered clans!! I don't believe it! Why should players be punished for upgrading their base in a certain order??? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!! CLAN WARS ARE THE ONLY THING KEEPING ME IN THIS GAME AND THEYRE GOING TO RUIN IT!!! STOP THIS WHILE THERE'S STILL A CHANCE! They already ruined the clocktower. DONT RUIN THE CLAN WARS. The next update will be the day this game dies, I swear. I am honestly ashamed of Supercell and now at a loss of words for how mad I am at them and the community of players that want engineered bases gone. Please, just stop it. Make a useful update for once.

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Let me outline this very vaguely for you since your own thread contradicts yourself.. you said "why should players be punished for upgrading their base in a certain order???" And the answer to this is that they shouldn't. And that's what Supercell is working to address.. while you engineered bases say "oh woah is me I'm getting punished for upgrading my base a certain way" your bases are ultimately punishing the larger part of this community. If you can't see that then you're plain ignorant and feel that Supercell should cater to your specific needs which go against what they designed the game for in the first place. Engineering your base to be a town hall 9,10,11(you get the picture) with low level defenses and not all of them that way you get a better matchup and then can attack top players with your advanced troops creates a huge punishment for anyone who doesn't play the game your way. If you can't see an advantage of having depending how many members are in war over half of your members being able to take a crack at the opponents number one for an almost guaranteed perfect war as being a problem for the majority of players who played the game the way it was designed to be played, you're the problem. Supercell isn't "taking away your bases" they're taking away your advantage. And I hope that you enjoy battling other clans with level one cannons in your future clan wars seeing that you felt you needed that advantage that ruined the game for other people in the first place. Have a nice day :)

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Originally Posted by Skrags

Well that's the million dollar question isn't it? To be honest there are probably other forum members better equipped to answer this question than myself (Onyx,Cnaf,Dorsan etc)
However, one consistent belief among experienced members of the community is that the colour of the respective Town Hall(s) is fairly irrelevant.
There's also the post match variables of "did they turn up/use their attacks" and/or "were they rubbish at attacking" to also consider, which is often a contentious issue.
Sometimes we read about forum members complaining about a terrible match, then 24 hours later, we read "We won!". It's then easy to jump on the thread, and post "Well it obviously wasn't a bad match then wasn't it??" - discuss....hmmm!
Personally, I think that a match should be evaluated only at the point when the match is defined, regardless of the subsequent details of the war itself, but I realise others have different opinions here!

So, what is "ok"?
Back to the colour of the TH in particular, I posted the thread below at the end of May, where my own clan experienced a series of wars where we had TH11 deficits, but I deemed the matches fair/ok, at the time based upon actually evaluating the offensive and defensive strengths of both clans, regardless of the colour of the TH.

https://forum.supercell.com/showthre...es-v-Wardens-!

However, I feel many players have wide ranging opinions about what they would deem as "ok", especially (as you quite rightly intimated

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See bold section...Interesting, yet you never shy away from saying the GM wars are easy solely based on the fact we regularly beat opponents by 30 stars...

Maybe I'm over simplifying it but to me just seems that offense does not count for enough. Current mm is punishing people for non rushed bases. Win streaks mean nothing, if u have a long streak it's just system manipulation, not skill.

As a clan leader, I'm worried about losing players because why waste resources in a war if they have 12-14 all max attacks to your 4. Base design no longer matters because they can hit a base 12 times with max attacks. I don't like being on either side of a mismatched war. No fun or competition in that. And isn't competition the reason we all fell in love with this game in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Ddelk

Maybe I'm over simplifying it but to me just seems that offense does not count for enough. Current mm is punishing people for non rushed bases. Win streaks mean nothing, if u have a long streak it's just system manipulation, not skill.

As a clan leader, I'm worried about losing players because why waste resources in a war if they have 12-14 all max attacks to your 4. Base design no longer matters because they can hit a base 12 times with max attacks. I don't like being on either side of a mismatched war. No fun or competition in that. And isn't competition the reason we all fell in love with this game in the first place?

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Hmm. Welcome to the forums, and you are wrong. That is just a horrible assumption.

And reviving a post from the dead (necro) is against forum policy. You can simply find another post relevant to the situation that is currently being discussed, or start your own thread.